To all the Haters...63.2%!

[Bleedin Green]

I'm with you, bro. These stupid, negative Jets fans and their wanting a quarterback like Manning or Brady on their team. Who do they think they are!?!?

You do realize there is a difference between wanting a quarterback like that, and incessantly whining when a third year QB dares not to already be performing at the level of a future first-ballot HOF QB. I'd love to have the single best player at every single position to be on this team, with the second best player at that position as his backup. But I'm not a ******* idiot, so I know better than to expect it.

[T0mShane]

You do realize there is a difference between wanting a quarterback like that, and incessantly whining when a third year QB dares not to already be performing at the level of a future first-ballot HOF QB. I'd love to have the single best player at every single position to be on this team, with the second best player at that position as his backup. But I'm not a ******* idiot, so I know better than to expect it.

Who's whining? And why are you jumping all over people for pointing out something that is clearly supported by every available piece of statistical data? That's weird.

[slats]

Who's whining? And why are you jumping all over people for pointing out something that is clearly supported by every available piece of statistical data? That's weird.

I don't think anyone's arguing that Sanchez doesn't have room for improvement. The difference of opinion here seems to be whether he's capable of that improvement.

[JiFtheOracle]

I'm with you, bro. These stupid, negative Jets fans and their wanting a quarterback like Manning or Brady on their team. Who do they think they are!?!?

Agreed. I mean, those type of players are just sitting around waiting to be put into the game. Every year there is a once in generation QB in the draft, but yet there's only 2 in the actual league. I know, its weird. Dumb dumb Jets, cant find one of their own.

Hell, the Patriots found there's in the 7th round. That was totally calucalated...they knew Brady would end up being the best Qb ever. And Manning, Peyton Manning, well, the only reason why it took him 8 years to win a SB is because of the weather.

[Bleedin Green]

Who's whining? And why are you jumping all over people for pointing out something that is clearly supported by every available piece of statistical data? That's weird.

Oh really? I'd love to see the statistical evidence that supports Sanchez has made no improvement in his career and/or is absolutely incapable of any further improvement at the same point in his career where the two best young QBs in the game were either about to start their 3rd NFL game or waiting another year to start their 1st NFL game. Of course there is none, but hey, as long as someone claims there is evidence to support their opinion, even if they are unable to actually ever present such evidence, that's all that really matters right?

[SMC]

I don't think anyone's arguing that Sanchez doesn't have room for improvement. The difference of opinion here seems to be whether he's capable of that improvement.

Exactly. Why is that so hard for TomShane and others to understand? He freakin' started a thread saying that at 24 with 2 yrs & 2 games in, Sanchez has reached his ceiling. Others, like Sperm & EY, say he hasn't improved.

And, as Bleedin aptly states, Tom asks "And why are you jumping all over people for pointing out something that is clearly supported by every available piece of statistical data?" but not a single person points to statistical data which demonstrates that Sanchez has not improved or cannot improve.

The debate isn't about whether Sanchez should improve. EVERYONE agrees with that. The debate is about whether Sanchez has improved and whether he can.

[JiFtheOracle]

Exactly. Why is that so hard for TomShane and others to understand? He freakin' started a thread saying that at 24 with 2 yrs & 2 games in, Sanchez has reached his ceiling. Others, like Sperm & EY, say he hasn't improved.

And, as Bleedin aptly states, Tom asks "And why are you jumping all over people for pointing out something that is clearly supported by every available piece of statistical data?" but not a single person points to statistical data which demonstrates that Sanchez has not improved or cannot improve.

The debate isn't about whether Sanchez should improve. EVERYONE agrees with that. The debate is about whether Sanchez has improved and whether he can.

I think the evidence is right there for everyone to see and maybe you're just blind.

Improvement you say - please - First season, 12 TD's, 20 INT's. Second season - 20 TD's, 17 INT's. Just 2 stats, but I dare you to show me how he's improved based on those numbers. Until you can prove that some how those numbers are improvement (which is impossible), I'm keeping my book firmly closed on Mark Sanchez.

[Sperm Edwards]

Exactly. Why is that so hard for TomShane and others to understand? He freakin' started a thread saying that at 24 with 2 yrs & 2 games in, Sanchez has reached his ceiling. Others, like Sperm & EY, say he hasn't improved.

And, as Bleedin aptly states, Tom asks "And why are you jumping all over people for pointing out something that is clearly supported by every available piece of statistical data?" but not a single person points to statistical data which demonstrates that Sanchez has not improved or cannot improve.

The debate isn't about whether Sanchez should improve. EVERYONE agrees with that. The debate is about whether Sanchez has improved and whether he can.

He hasn't improved literally zero. But he hasn't improved so much for so many to be chanting about this great improvement. Particularly after 2 games that are eerily similar statistically to the first 2 games of his career. And they're outright worse than his start to 2010. So pointing at a cumulative completion percentage (or compiling statistics of any kind) after 2 games against total garbage secondaries, and using that as some type of proof of significant improvement, is utterly silly.

What you CAN do are see tendencies whether plays are successful or not. Defenses can plainly see that he locks in on his primary guy for far too long. The only time it appears he surveys the field is on those rare occasions when the OL gives him 5-6 seconds without noticeable pressure. He misses way too many wide open receivers because he's locked in on someone covered, waiting for that man to break free. Of course not on every play, but on far too many for me to cite this as any real "improvement" from a year or so ago. One game with a very high completion percentage does not mean he's improved so greatly when he's done and looked better in the past.

And lastly, his big problem was turning the ball over. He threw a pick and fumbled twice in week 1 (and it's just our stupid luck he wasn't picked off a second time on our last possession), and then threw two picks in week 2. None of them were of the variety where it was tipped at the line and fell into a defender's arms, or bouncing off his own receiver's hands or chest and into a defender's, and none of them were of the "holy crap how'd he do that?" type with a CB doing something incredible.

Is he better than he was as a rookie? Yes, of course. Is he DRAMATICALLY better? Not yet.

[THE ILK]

Oh really? I'd love to see the statistical evidence that supports Sanchez has made no improvement in his career and/or is absolutely incapable of any further improvement at the same point in his career where the two best young QBs in the game were either about to start their 3rd NFL game or waiting another year to start their 1st NFL game. Of course there is none, but hey, as long as someone claims there is evidence to support their opinion, even if they are unable to actually ever present such evidence, that's all that really matters right?

Depends on how many other people saw the show.

[THE ILK]

Exactly. Why is that so hard for TomShane and others to understand? He freakin' started a thread saying that at 24 with 2 yrs & 2 games in, Sanchez has reached his ceiling. Others, like Sperm & EY, say he hasn't improved.

And, as Bleedin aptly states, Tom asks "And why are you jumping all over people for pointing out something that is clearly supported by every available piece of statistical data?" but not a single person points to statistical data which demonstrates that Sanchez has not improved or cannot improve.

The debate isn't about whether Sanchez should improve. EVERYONE agrees with that. The debate is about whether Sanchez has improved and whether he can.

They are taking the stand that going from 32nd to 16th is not an improvement.

[T0mShane]

Double post

[SMC]

He hasn't improved literally zero. But he hasn't improved so much for so many to be chanting about this great improvement. Particularly after 2 games that are eerily similar statistically to the first 2 games of his career. And they're outright worse than his start to 2010. So pointing at a cumulative completion percentage (or compiling statistics of any kind) after 2 games against total garbage secondaries, and using that as some type of proof of significant improvement, is utterly silly.

This is why it's easy to lay the agenda label on you and others when you make satements without any basis in fact.

2011 First 2 Games (Bolded Green where better)

43/68 63.2% 517 yds 7.6 ypa 4 TDs 3 INTs

2011 First 2 Games (Bolded Green where better)

31/51 60% 294 yds 5.7 ypa 3 TDs 0 INTs

[T0mShane]

^All good stuff, except for JiF who (as usual) tries to hIjack the thread because he's a sheltered and creepy prick.

My OP was based on my opinion that, after ~40 starts, I'm pretty sure I've seen enough of Sanchez to start drawing some conclusions on just how good he's capable of being. Either way, it's--at best--a coin flip as to whether he's going to get appreciably better, or if he's going to be roughly this same, ok guy.

As we all know, I'm a Jets-glass-half-empty kinda guy, but I'm just not seeing it with Sanchez. The guy is in the perfect situation for any QB, and he's just ok. 40 starts is a lifetime for any NFL player, but some of you guys still want to treat Sanchez like he just walked off the USC campus. No one except for an increasingly shrinking cadre of Jets fans thinks that Sanchez is, or will ever be, an elite QB. Even Trent Dilfer, who wanted to have Sanchez's baby three years ago, is starting to lower the bar for him.

And, to reiterate, he's a good QB. Nothing wrong with that.

Sorry for the scattered reply. I'm on my phone, living the dream.

[Aten]

This is why it's easy to lay the agenda label on you and others when you make satements without any basis in fact.

It's easy to lay the agenda label on him and others because you can type and don't mind being a huge hypocrite. This is easily your dumbest talking point. The people that comprise the side of the debate that is generally down on Sanchez didn't always agree on the issue. I'd be exhibit A as to those who thought he simply wouldn't make it at all, while others like RJF, EY, Sperm were a lot more bullish initially. Information accumulated, I revised my opinion upward, they downward, and we wound up in the same place. On the other hand, the considered pro-Sanchez opinion is, shock of all shocks, exactly the same as the unconsidered pro-Sanchez opinion was. Faced with the choice between changing their minds and proving that there is no need to do so, some people roll with the data while others get straight to work on the proof.

[Matt39]

Quick question- what was Sanchez's best game as a pro to date?

[Aten]

Quick question- what was Sanchez's best game as a pro to date?

Tampa Bay 2009.

[Matt39]

Tampa Bay 2009.

Lesbehones tho

[Aten]

Lesbehones tho

His best game per C%, QBR, YPA, DVOA was the wild card game against the Bengals in 2009. The answer you wanted was the divisional game against New England last year.

[SMC]

It's easy to lay the agenda label on him and others because you can type and don't mind being a huge hypocrite. This is easily your dumbest talking point. The people that comprise the side of the debate that is generally down on Sanchez didn't always agree on the issue. I'd be exhibit A as to those who thought he simply wouldn't make it at all, while others like RJF, EY, Sperm were a lot more bullish initially. Information accumulated, I revised my opinion upward, they downward, and we wound up in the same place. On the other hand, the considered pro-Sanchez opinion is, shock of all shocks, exactly the same as the unconsidered pro-Sanchez opinion was. Faced with the choice between changing their minds and proving that there is no need to do so, some people roll with the data while others get straight to work on the proof.

You "revised" your opinion upward? So, you went from "terrible" to "awful." Good job! You hated him from day 1 and still do.

As for you calling me a hypocrite, that assumes that I accuse someone else of doing something which I deny. First, I've never denied that I have an agenda--I'm pro-Sanchez and I want him to succeed for many reasons, primary being that it is in the best interest of the Jets that he does. Do I think he's great? No. Do I think he has improved and can improve? Yes.

Second, with respect to Sperm, it wasn't I that made a statement that was contrary to easily verifiable facts. He did to support his argument and was properly taken to task for it.

Third, as to RJF, I really don't understand his points since he hides behind funny pictures and movie quotes without making a cogent argument to support his opinion that Sanchez sucks. As to EY, he's just looking for a new battle to fight and Sanchez is it for him. So he's chosen non quantifiable aspects of Sanchez' game to use as a platform to criticize his entire body of work.

[Matt39]

His best game per C%, QBR, YPA, DVOA was the wild card game against the Bengals in 2009. The answer you wanted was the divisional game against New England last year.

I wasn't wanting anything. I figured it was the Bears game from last year.

The Bengals game he ran a bunch of high school bootlegs against a poorly coached team.

[RutgersJetFan]

I'd be exhibit A as to those who thought he simply wouldn't make it at all, while others like RJF, EY, Sperm were a lot more bullish initially.

If by "those who thought," you mean just you, then yes, you were amongst that group.

[RutgersJetFan]

Third, as to RJF, I really don't understand his points since he hides behind funny pictures and movie quotes without making a cogent argument to support his opinion that Sanchez sucks.

There wasn't really much more to be said. The numbers say he sucks. The eye-test says he sucks. Doesn't really go much further than that. Improving on being one of the worst in the league to being on the fringe of not being one of the worst in the league is still bad. I don't care that he's shown he can improve anymore. At some point you have to start judging a guy on results and results alone. At some point you decided you wanted to be a jackoff in regards to that assertion and get personal; and if you want to play that game, I'd rather just post Talladega Nights quotes and/or ignore you and be done with it. You've started to just become one of those guys that isn't worth the time.

[SMC]

There wasn't really much more to be said. The numbers say he sucks. The eye-test says he sucks. Doesn't really go much further than that. Improving on being one of the worst in the league to being on the fringe of not being one of the worst in the league is still bad. I don't care that he's shown he can improve anymore. At some point you have to start judging a guy on results and results alone. At some point you decided you wanted to be a jackoff in regards to that assertion and get personal; and if you want to play that game, I'd rather just post Talladega Nights quotes and/or ignore you and be done with it. You've started to just become one of those guys that isn't worth the time.

[Vicious89x]

I'm one of those guys who was ok with Sanchez. Waited. Watched. Looked for the good in Sanchez and saw flashes, and tried to not get nuts over the bad. But I feel like the more it goes on with this kid the more it becomes part of the "hope" syndrome. We keep on hoping he'll get better, we keep looking at the small things to see if he'll be better. In the end I just dont' think he can do it. I think he's going to be a mistake prone QB that can't consistently throw a team on his back and win games for us. It starts Sunday against a good front 7 and we'll see Sanchez be what he is, an innaccurate QB who makes a few nice throws a game.

We continue harping on "time" but he's had 32 regular season games and 6 post season games. He may "only be" 20-something but he's had plenty of experience.

[RutgersJetFan]

I'm one of those guys who was ok with Sanchez. Waited. Watched. Looked for the good in Sanchez and saw flashes, and tried to not get nuts over the bad. But I feel like the more it goes on with this kid the more it becomes part of the "hope" syndrome. We keep on hoping he'll get better, we keep looking at the small things to see if he'll be better.

[Vicious89x]

Not for an old crook like me.

[Aten]

You've started to just become one of those guys that isn't worth the time.

Adrien Clarke has a legit shot to be our starting LG this season.

[Aten]

I'm one of those guys who was ok with Sanchez. Waited. Watched. Looked for the good in Sanchez and saw flashes, and tried to not get nuts over the bad. But I feel like the more it goes on with this kid the more it becomes part of the "hope" syndrome.

It's not the hope syndrome. It's just stupid. People who thought Sanchez sucked before think he sucks now. People who thought Sanchez was great before think he sucks now. People who were trying to reserve judgment before think he sucks now. But there's not a single person who thinks Sanchez is good now who hasn't thought so all along.

[RutgersJetFan]

It's not the hope syndrome. It's just stupid. People who thought Sanchez sucked before think he sucks now. People who thought Sanchez was great before think he sucks now. People who were trying to reserve judgment before think he sucks now. But there's not a single person who thinks Sanchez is good now who hasn't thought so all along.

You're killing independent George.

[Vicious89x]

It's not the hope syndrome. It's just stupid. People who thought Sanchez sucked before think he sucks now. People who thought Sanchez was great before think he sucks now. People who were trying to reserve judgment before think he sucks now. But there's not a single person who thinks Sanchez is good now who hasn't thought so all along.

I'd fall into the latter, reserving judgment, but I really can't see how we get out of these next 3 games 2-1 with Sanchez playing the way he plays.

STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE STARE

Pick.

[SMC]

It's not the hope syndrome. It's just stupid. People who thought Sanchez sucked before think he sucks now. People who thought Sanchez was great before think he sucks now. People who were trying to reserve judgment before think he sucks now. But there's not a single person who thinks Sanchez is good now who hasn't thought so all along.

The true believers!!!

[ZachEY]

You "revised" your opinion upward? So, you went from "terrible" to "awful." Good job! You hated him from day 1 and still do.

As for you calling me a hypocrite, that assumes that I accuse someone else of doing something which I deny. First, I've never denied that I have an agenda--I'm pro-Sanchez and I want him to succeed for many reasons, primary being that it is in the best interest of the Jets that he does. Do I think he's great? No. Do I think he has improved and can improve? Yes.

Second, with respect to Sperm, it wasn't I that made a statement that was contrary to easily verifiable facts. He did to support his argument and was properly taken to task for it.

Third, as to RJF, I really don't understand his points since he hides behind funny pictures and movie quotes without making a cogent argument to support his opinion that Sanchez sucks. As to EY, he's just looking for a new battle to fight and Sanchez is it for him. So he's chosen non quantifiable aspects of Sanchez' game to use as a platform to criticize his entire body of work.

Good post. I laughed.

[Kleckineau]

Well he is better than Browning Nagle was and he could be a decent backup somewhere when the Jets are done with him.

[ZachEY]

It's not the hope syndrome. It's just stupid. People who thought Sanchez sucked before think he sucks now. People who thought Sanchez was great before think he sucks now. People who were trying to reserve judgment before think he sucks now. But there's not a single person who thinks Sanchez is good now who hasn't thought so all along.

Hence, the Pennington comparisons.

Performance was a distant second to liking the guy. Sanchez has a wider range between his best and his worst.

[JiFtheOracle]

^All good stuff, except for JiF who (as usual) tries to hIjack the thread because he's a sheltered and creepy prick.

You ruin this site.

It's easy to lay the agenda label on him and others because you can type and don't mind being a huge hypocrite. This is easily your dumbest talking point. The people that comprise the side of the debate that is generally down on Sanchez didn't always agree on the issue. I'd be exhibit A as to those who thought he simply wouldn't make it at all, while others like RJF, EY, Sperm were a lot more bullish initially. Information accumulated, I revised my opinion upward, they downward, and we wound up in the same place. On the other hand, the considered pro-Sanchez opinion is, shock of all shocks, exactly the same as the unconsidered pro-Sanchez opinion was. Faced with the choice between changing their minds and proving that there is no need to do so, some people roll with the data while others get straight to work on the proof.

Where do I fall then?