AT Best, Santonio is a #2 WR. Does that make Hill #1?

[JustInFudge]

So wait, which is it? Do you agree with your own original post that Holmes is the Jets' best WR, but has had some struggles in the #1 WR role, and would be better suited as a very good #2 WR? Or is absolutely everything he ever does wrong all completely Sanchez's fault regardless of what actually happens on the field, because it all has to be Sanchez's fault at all times (in order to justify someone still having a raging hard-on for the Jets' former OC) and therefore all other Jets' offensive players and coaches are completely infallible?

Huh? I was just listing the names of players who have a ton of drops of catchable balls but typically also have around 100 catches.

I'm not even sure what your asking me. My assessment of Holmes is documented in this thread for all to see. (but still fully expect to be called a Holmes ball washer when I defend him at some point later in the season).

[T0mShane]

I wish most of you dudes were around for the illustrious "Kerry Rhodes IS TOO awesome" debates we had here. Because this is a carbon copy of that.

[Bleedin Green]

Huh? I was just listing the names of players who have a ton of drops of catchable balls but typically also have around 100 catches.

I'm not even sure what your asking me. My assessment of Holmes is documented in this thread for all to see. (but still fully expect to be called a Holmes ball washer when I defend him at some point later in the season).

I know what you were saying, but agreeing with something out of that ridiculous post from Gato just doesn't reflect well, that's all I was illustrating (particularly considering that despite him trying to cite you in his post, your and his posts mostly disagree with one another). Truth be told, I was really using it as another opportunity to point out the utter ridiculousness of Gato's completely indefensible stance, that's all. Like I said before, I'm in agreement with you on your original post.

Besides, wouldn't there be an inherent expectation of players with more catches having more drops? Wouldn't the greater concern be those players with less catches that have a higher number of drops? Keep in mind, that's not even a reference to Holmes because I'm not sure how his numbers line up in that regard, but more just a general point.

[Bleedin Green]

I wish most of you dudes were around for the illustrious "Kerry Rhodes IS TOO awesome" debates we had here. Because this is a carbon copy of that.

But in the end, all of this is mere child's play compared to the era of ole Chadwick.

[JustInFudge]

I know what you were saying, but agreeing with something out of that ridiculous post from Gato just doesn't reflect well, that's all I was illustrating (particularly considering that despite him trying to cite you in his post, your and his posts mostly disagree with one another). Truth be told, I was really using it as another opportunity to point out the utter ridiculousness of Gato's completely indefensible stance, that's all. Like I said before, I'm in agreement with you on your original post.

Besides, wouldn't there be an inherent expectation of players with more catches having more drops? Wouldn't the greater concern be those players with less catches that have a higher number of drops? Keep in mind, that's not even a reference to Holmes because I'm not sure how his numbers line up in that regard, but more just a general point.

I didnt read his post (sorry Gato), just saw my name and read after that...I agreed with him the problem is they havent connected enough and just decided to give an example of the players who drop a lot of passes even though they end up toward the top of the league in catches.

As to your 2nd point, I see what you're saying and I guess it depends.

[bitonti]

Yes, but I think that's rather more a question of whether it's by default as currently being the Jets' best WR, or if his ability and the level he plays at truly distinguishes him as a player that should/would be considered a #1 WR on teams throughout the NFL. Wayne Hunter started the entire season at RT for the Jets last year, that doesn't necessarily qualify him to be a starting-caliber RT, especially considering he never was prior to that and no longer is one now. Obviously Holmes is no Hunter, but I'm simply using an extreme example to make the point.

to use your Hunter example, he was a weakness that would be targeted. The other team would say yes let's blitz at Hunter. Other teams don't see Holmes as a weakness. they see him as the guy who can beat ya.

[Bleedin Green]

to use your Hunter example, he was a weakness that would be targeted. The other team would say yes let's blitz at Hunter. Other teams don't see Holmes as a weakness. they see him as the guy who can beat ya.

I hear what you're saying, but that wasn't exactly my point. My point was rather being the best player at a given position on a particular team doesn't necessarily make that same player amongst the best at their position throughout the league. As I said in my original post in this thread, I think Holmes certainly has the ability to compete at a top level (which certainly gives teams cause for concern), but has some legitimate consistency issues of his own that cause some to question whether he's truly one of the league's best.

[bitonti]

I hear what you're saying, but that wasn't exactly my point. My point was rather being the best player at a given position on a particular team doesn't necessarily make that same player amongst the best at their position throughout the league.

I agree but the terms "best in the league" and "#1 WR" are not interchangable. The Jets have a #1 QB who clearly isn't among the best in the league.

[jason423]

Im going to say that there is still potential there for Holmes to be a 1 if used properly, though maybe a 1A is a better term. I do think Holmes can draw defenders and help create openings for other players. He has done that the last two weeks, the problem is that the QB is focused on getting Holmes the football rather than throwing to the other guys to help loosen the coverage on Holmes.

Here is the thing with Holmes. You cant use him as an intermediate possession guy. He needs to be used as a big play threat to take advantage of his speed. His size and hands arent good enough to be used in these intermediate slants and crosses. Those are just wasted opportunities. He has fantastic ability around the goal and if you need to force the ball to him you do it there, not at the 40 yard line on some little comeback to Sanchez. Maybe the skills arent there anymore but Id wait a few weeks to see how it plays out. I guess the end result could be that he is Chris Chambers- a really athletic and good talent when he wants to be one whose lack of effort does him in. That being said if he continues to behave like he did last week he is going to have to go. I dont know if anyone in that huddle likes him.

[Bleedin Green]

I agree but the terms "best in the league" and "#1 WR" are not interchangable. The Jets have a #1 QB who clearly isn't among the best in the league.

Won't argue with you there at all, although it seems that the intent of the original post was using them interchangeably.

[#27TheDominator]

I agree but the terms "best in the league" and "#1 WR" are not interchangable. The Jets have a #1 QB who clearly isn't among the best in the league.

FRANCHISE!

[SenorGato]

Bowe's trouncing of Holmes include three more TDs and less than 20 more catches. Marshall has less TDs. Neither is known for their super amazing hands or amazing attitude and work ethic. Holmes has the most y/c out of all of them.

He's a high quality, well paid WR on a team that can't pass well. That's never been a good mix for good press or happy players in this league. He'd be a beast if Sanchez was a good passer.

Jason pretty much nailed the rest with his post.

[Bleedin Green]

Bowe's trouncing of Holmes include three more TDs and less than 20 more catches. Marshall has less TDs. Neither is known for their super amazing hands or amazing attitude and work ethic. Holmes has the most y/c out of all of them.

He's a high quality, well paid WR on a team that can't pass well. That's never been a good mix for good press or happy players in this league. He'd be a beast if Sanchez was a good passer.

Jason pretty much nailed the rest with his post.

Try to diminish the means by which those other players outperformed Holmes all you like, but it still happened and, try to ignore it as you might, those players mentioned all play for sub-standard passing teams as well. Therefore, the excuses you try to apply to Holmes should apply to all of them in exactly the same manner. That would mean, in the end, either your excuses have no merit to them or that they are the superior players.

Beyond that, I must have missed the part of Jason's post where he said Holmes' issues with lack of effort (which brought on the less-than-complimentary comparison of Chris Chambers) are completely excusable and by no means his own fault. In the end, the bottom line is you have absolutely no basis for your position outside of your own say-so and mindlessly dismissing anything that says otherwise, without justification. The funniest part is never in any of this have I actually tried to say Holmes' is a bad player, but rather that he actually has the ability and is limited by issues with consistency, mostly due to lack of effort. It really boggles my mind what a disgusting lack of accountability you think is an acceptable practice anywhere in this world, football or otherwise.

[SenorGato]

Diminish it from "significantly" to "reality."

[T0mShane]

Bowe's trouncing of Holmes include three more TDs and less than 20 more catches. Marshall has less TDs. Neither is known for their super amazing hands or amazing attitude and work ethic. Holmes has the most y/c out of all of them.

He's a high quality, well paid WR on a team that can't pass well. That's never been a good mix for good press or happy players in this league. He'd be a beast if Sanchez was a good passer.

Jason pretty much nailed the rest with his post.

You know where Holmes would be great? In Pittsburgh, and he'd still be there if he wasn't a malignant tumor.

[dbatesman]

You know where Holmes would be great? In Pittsburgh, and he'd still be there if Ben hadn't maybe raped that girl.

FTFY

[T0mShane]

FTFY

That too.

[JFtoLong]

I can't stand Holmes, I cannot wait until he is no longer a Jet. Sanche would benefit greatly from that.

[RSJ]

I can't believe Holmes is still on this roster.