Ok i give up. What the “receipts” thing

[More Cowbell]

On 9/14/2022 at 8:58 PM, Ecuadorian Jet said:

actually made by the Head Coach who said a few weeks ago "positive vibes only"

I think it's  a really bad quote. It shows the media is getting to him but it does show he thinks this team is good. Hopefully  he can show it on the field. 

[freestater]

2 hours ago, Skeptable said:

Nobody here is saying wait 5 more years, but jesus can we at least give him a few weeks before you send him to the gallows

If its perfectly reasonable for you to claim anyone critical of Saleh in any way correlates to them wanting him fired right now, then why can't anybody effusive in their defense of Saleh be presumed to want him here for the length of his entire contract?

[Skeptable]

23 minutes ago, freestater said:

If its perfectly reasonable for you to claim anyone critical of Saleh in any way correlates to them wanting him fired right now, then why can't anybody effusive in their defense of Saleh be presumed to want him here for the length of his entire contract?

Did you read what I wrote? I said specifically its fine to be critical, I have no problem with people questioning calls or playing time. But have you read this site... The majority is, he is a cupcake, a cheerleader, he is terrible, if he is so good then why is his record so bad... I just showed 2 examples of coaches that followed nearly the same strategy of building a team and proving that it can take time.

If he is so terrible then what is the solution, half the site is talking bring in payton or wishing they hired Daboll or McCarthy... That is saying you want him gone... which means being fired... come on, don't be so dense.

Just because you don't come out and say directly that you want him fired doesn't mean that you are not stating it by reading through the lines.

[TuscanyTile2]

5 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

If he is so terrible then what is the solution, half the site is talking bring in payton or wishing they hired Daboll or McCarthy... That is saying you want him gone... which means being fired... come on, don't be so dense.

Just because you don't come out and say directly that you want him fired doesn't mean that you are not stating it by reading through the lines.

Probably fans of every team in the NFL wishes they had Bill Belichick as their HC.  Does that mean all of these fans want their HC fired?

And nobody regrets that we didn't hire Mike McCarthy.

[Skeptable]

9 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Probably fans of every team in the NFL wishes they had Bill Belichick as their HC.  Does that mean all of these fans want their HC fired?

And nobody regrets that we didn't hire Mike McCarthy.

essentially Yes... Because they don't want their current HC and is looking for an alternative

[TuscanyTile2]

5 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

essentially Yes... Because they don't want their current HC and is looking for an alternative

So if you think there's a better HC out there than the one your team has then you want your HC fired.  Got it.

What if I think there's a team out there that's better than the team I root for?  Does that mean I want to jump ship?

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, Barton said:

Nothing to see here. Just Saleh trying to sound hood.

 

He sounds less hood and more like Saleh Claus, making a list, checking it twice…

I’m staying out of it for now, hoping good behavior will avert the lump of coal I get from the Jets each Christmas.

[Skeptable]

7 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

So if you think there's a better HC out there than the one your team has then you want your HC fired.  Got it.

What if I think there's a team out there that's better than the team I root for?  Does that mean I want to jump ship?

Thinking that there is a better coach and wanting to replace the current coach with that coach are two different things and you are mixing the 2. You think the fans of KC would rather have Belicheck? or how about LA Ram fans, or SF fans... you think they want Belicheck.... No.. of course not. Just because there is better doesn't mean every fan base wishes they had said coach.

[TuscanyTile2]

6 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

Thinking that there is a better coach and wanting to replace the current coach with that coach are two different things and you are mixing the 2. You think the fans of KC would rather have Belicheck? or how about LA Ram fans, or SF fans... you think they want Belicheck.... No.. of course not. Just because there is better doesn't mean every fan base wishes they had said coach.

If BB was younger then I can't see how any of those teams (or fans of those teams) wouldn't want him as their HC (including over Andy Reid, Sean McVay, etc)

[Skeptable]

27 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

If BB was younger then I can't see how any of those teams (or fans of those teams) wouldn't want him as their HC (including over Andy Reid, Sean McVay, etc)

I fundamentally and completely disagree with this statement... Belicheck was a mediocre HC until Brady... He failed in Cleveland and was not well liked... then he was Only ok in NE until Brady took over... Yes in peak form people may have wanted him, but not as many fanbases as you may think.

I edited failing in NE because that was too harsh... he was doing decent but not this ultra desirable HC as you state.

[freestater]

3 hours ago, Skeptable said:

Did you read what I wrote? I said specifically its fine to be critical, I have no problem with people questioning calls or playing time. But have you read this site... The majority is, he is a cupcake, a cheerleader, he is terrible, if he is so good then why is his record so bad... I just showed 2 examples of coaches that followed nearly the same strategy of building a team and proving that it can take time.

If he is so terrible then what is the solution, half the site is talking bring in payton or wishing they hired Daboll or McCarthy... That is saying you want him gone... which means being fired... come on, don't be so dense.

Just because you don't come out and say directly that you want him fired doesn't mean that you are not stating it by reading through the lines.

Yes. I read it. Referring to this:

6 hours ago, Skeptable said:

And don't give me this defensive argument that nobody is calling for him to be fired, but yet every other post is Saleh is bad, Saleh is a cheerleader, Saleh can't coach, etc. etc. What is the end game of that..... You are basically saying he shouldn't coach the team, ala needs to be fired... There is no other way to put it. There are some that are critical here of things he does which is understandable but most of the website right now is bashing JD, Saleh, or Zach saying that 1 or 2 or all three need to go without even giving them a full season together after a teardown year

Certainly seems like you're extrapolating the one from the other. 

[Skeptable]

25 minutes ago, freestater said:

Yes. I read it. Referring to this:

Certainly seems like you're extrapolating the one from the other. 

Ok since you read it, you understand that I think that criticism is warranted. But that is far from what is happening on this board.

This board has gone from criticism to outright badgering any optimistic take. You are not allowed to write anything positive without a crew of posters telling you how much each person sucks. 

Now, maybe not you, I don't follow your posts, but a large part of regular posters have gone into overdrive trolling every thread without any real criticism but just bashing the coach. Sure be angry... Sure you can say he has a terrible record... but that doesn't necessarily mean he is a terrible coach.

The patience has worth thin on the Jets fanbase but that is due to Gase and Bowles and even the end of Rex Ryan.

Bad coaches show up in terms of how the team performs (Not always in wins and loses)... right now the team looks decent in my humble opinion.. Not all loses are equal. Last year looked terrible but the roster was so thin from NFL talent that once starters started going down there was nobody to fill the void.

Last year all I read was about LaFleur was terrible and he needed to be fired... posted all over... Jets offense looks inept... by the end of the season it was all Ulbrich and how terrible he was and got deflected to if Saleh is so good why is his Defense 31st in the league... In game 1 the defense looked really good outside of 2-3 plays... The offense looked ok but not as bad as some of the games in Gase era... They moved the ball and some players had key, drops, turnovers, fumbles opponents side of the field. You can blame this on coaching I guess. But even the vaunted Belicheck's players make crucial mistakes sometimes.

I am personally sick of coaches in the Jets past that had tons of pre-snap penalties, Bad timeouts, bad clock management, terrible decisions on going for it or not, Not being aggressive, and in my opinion none of this happened in this game. The players made some mistakes on their first game and if it keeps happening that is coaching... if its once... then I can only blame the player.

But keep hoping to bring back Rex and his awful timeouts or changing of personnel, or terrible clock management... Even watching them lose to the worst team in the league while beating the best...if you think that is a good coach, have at it I am not going to be able to convince you otherwise.

[freestater]

3 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

Ok since you read it, you understand that I think that criticism is warranted. But that is far from what is happening on this board.

This board has gone from criticism to outright badgering any optimistic take. You are not allowed to write anything positive without a crew of posters telling you how much each person sucks. 

Now, maybe not you, I don't follow your posts, but a large part of regular posters have gone into overdrive trolling every thread without any real criticism but just bashing the coach. Sure be angry... Sure you can say he has a terrible record... but that doesn't necessarily mean he is a terrible coach.

The patience has worth thin on the Jets fanbase but that is due to Gase and Bowles and even the end of Rex Ryan.

Bad coaches show up in terms of how the team performs (Not always in wins and loses)... right now the team looks decent in my humble opinion.. Not all loses are equal. Last year looked terrible but the roster was so thin from NFL talent that once starters started going down there was nobody to fill the void.

Last year all I read was about LaFleur was terrible and he needed to be fired... posted all over... Jets offense looks inept... by the end of the season it was all Ulbrich and how terrible he was and got deflected to if Saleh is so good why is his Defense 31st in the league... In game 1 the defense looked really good outside of 2-3 plays... The offense looked ok but not as bad as some of the games in Gase era... They moved the ball and some players had key, drops, turnovers, fumbles opponents side of the field. You can blame this on coaching I guess. But even the vaunted Belicheck's players make crucial mistakes sometimes.

I am personally sick of coaches in the Jets past that had tons of pre-snap penalties, Bad timeouts, bad clock management, terrible decisions on going for it or not, Not being aggressive, and in my opinion none of this happened in this game. The players made some mistakes on their first game and if it keeps happening that is coaching... if its once... then I can only blame the player.

But keep hoping to bring back Rex and his awful timeouts or changing of personnel, or terrible clock management... Even watching them lose to the worst team in the league while beating the best...if you think that is a good coach, have at it I am not going to be able to convince you otherwise.

OK that's fair but I think the sentiment I reacted to is also represented on this board with a sunshine crew who thinks that any criticism is the result of a 'disease'. I can see how you'd see the opposite but it's certainly on both sides. I don't think Saleh has shown any real reasons to think he's up to the task but I get being optimistic. 

[Warfish]

8 hours ago, Skeptable said:

After the first game in the second year of a complete teardown (Started one year before he got there) they won 4 games, in which it was Saleh's first year as HC and with the youngest roster in the league.

4-14 is more than enough to start forming evaluation/opinions of the Coaching staff.

There seems to be a belief that no judgement, no evaluation, can be done of Coaches or QB's till they've completed multiple seasons first.  That is not a viewpoint I find valid in anyway.  Keep in mind that evaluation is an ongoing process, it does not end today or Monday.  When new facts come in, evaluations change to reflect them.

8 hours ago, Skeptable said:

You are now going to hold that record over his head?

By "hold over his head" do you mean evaluate the staff based on their actual record?  If so, yes.

8 hours ago, Skeptable said:

This is beyond ignorant and stupid and you are better then that. I have watched you post for a long time and you have a lot of decent points to make but this is just not relevant.

Backhanded compliment, but thank you?  I guess, lol?

8 hours ago, Skeptable said:

What has happened for the last 12 years before Saleh should not count against Saleh as most of you are doing.

You're right.  It shouldn't.  It's unfair.

And yet, life isn't fair.  And yes, the history is something every new coach/GM needs to take into consideration, because fair or not, their timetable for results will be judged (in part) by the history (good or bad).    

8 hours ago, Skeptable said:

But for once the Jets actually did the right thing and not a half measure of ripping all the junk out of the building and basically starting fresh without the old, we'll try and compete and tear it down at the same time.

I'm not sure what all the "did the right thing" is this time vs. every other GM's housecleaning and roster purging and drafting.

JD has made some picks I like, but I don't see JD's process as much different that that of some previous GM's.  Purge, Draft, FA's, same as always.

8 hours ago, Skeptable said:

Now it is beyond frustrating that their 2 most important positions that they drafted have a hard time staying on the field but that is not Saleh's fault. Blame it on the turf, maybe but Zach got hurt somewhere else. Blame it on JD, maybe but a lot of his other picks seem to be very talented.

JD drafted Wilson, Wilson has played very poorly (in 21') and missed time, and is now missing time again.  That is a valid criticism of the GM that drafted him.

Is ti fair to Saleh?  Perhaps not, but see above, life isn't fair.  I don't think it's fair I have to waste a Sunday watching Joe f'ing Flacco either, lol.  

8 hours ago, Skeptable said:

If this team was terribly coached you would see tons of bad penalties, bad time outs, unmotivated players, and slacking players... I personally have not seen any of that.

You may want to re-watch much of last season, if you can stomach it.  That team was sloppy and utterly uncompetitive for most of the season.

8 hours ago, Skeptable said:

So what this fanbase is calling for his head

I'm not calling for his head.  At no point have I advocated he be fired now.  Nor, in my experience, is anyone else.

The strongest takes I've seen are simply to evaluate him at year's end and see if we're still materially worse on the field than we were before he got here, despite having what we all agree is materially better overall talent.

8 hours ago, Skeptable said:

even though he hasn't even been given a chance to have his drafted QB on the field of his 2nd year and they lost to a team that had 2-3 plays that beat them.

Again, life isn't fair.  QB he assuredly agreed to draft with JD goes down, he better have a valid backup plan to still compete.  

8 hours ago, Skeptable said:

They did not get blown out, although it feels that way when the offense doesn't score, but overall that game was a first step in what seems like it will be a good season.

We see that game very differently then.  The Jets were effectively uncompetitive vs. the Ravens, we were never really "in it", and definitely weren't in the 2nd half.  That game was never really in doubt.  Not getting blown out isn't good enough.

8 hours ago, Skeptable said:

And don't give me this defensive argument that nobody is calling for him to be fired, but yet every other post is Saleh is bad, Saleh is a cheerleader, Saleh can't coach, etc. etc. What is the end game of that.

The end game of that is "He must improve, and start showing results".

Failure to do that is his firing.  By JD, not by the fans.

8 hours ago, Skeptable said:

.... You are basically saying he shouldn't coach the team, ala needs to be fired... There is no other way to put it.

Nope, see above.

8 hours ago, Skeptable said:

There are some that are critical here of things he does which is understandable but most of the website right now is bashing JD, Saleh, or Zach saying that 1 or 2 or all three need to go without even giving them a full season together after a teardown year.

All three are in the same position, they need to start showing results to justify continued investment in them.

I'm sorry Skep, but you do not get to lose and lose and lose and keep your jobs in the NFL of today.  Just doesn't work that way.  You must show cause for ongoing time and investment.

It's early yet for Saleh and Zach (the two is most risk as of today IMO), they have time to produce this year (or prove the doubters correct).

Make no mistake, plenty of coaches and QB's only get two full years to prove themselves before being let go, if the results are poor enough.

There are no "6 Year Plans" for Coaches and QB's in the NFL.

8 hours ago, Skeptable said:

Main point is that the 50 Years of suck this franchise has had should not be weighed so heavily on a coach in his first game of his 2nd year.

And yet it is, and will be.  As I say, life isn't fair, most of all to loyal Jets Fans, but it is what it is.

If Saleh didn't understand that when he took the job, he far less intelligent than I give him credit.

8 hours ago, Skeptable said:

Sure quote records or whatever you want... But even Zac Taylor on Cincy (an actual worse team) was given 2 years before they started calling for his firing and what was his record??

Why do you care if some portion of fans "call for his firing"?  It has absolutely no effect on Saleh or the team, they are not here at JN reading our posts.  If they, that alone is a fireable offense in my book, lol, they have much better things to do with their time.

I think some of you need to chill out, and let people think what they think.  Make your case, of course, post what YOU think, of course, but this idea that your view should over-rule what other fans think is just....odd.  So what if random poster is in fact calling for his firing now.  So what?  As has been said, after all these years of failure, and sitting at 4-14 so far, that frustration is entirely justified.

8 hours ago, Skeptable said:

Or how about Kyle Shanahan?

6 games in year 1 and 4 the 2nd year.... People in SF were furious and wanted his head... but then what happened... It clicked...

Nobody here is saying wait 5 more years, but jesus can we at least give him a few weeks before you send him to the gallows.

For every Shannhan, or Taylor, there are a dozen or more Gase's.

Cherry picking the exceptions does not overcome the many more examples of guys who were this level of bad, and never improved.

Same argument we often have about QB's.  Peyton Manning being bad his first year then being awesome doesn't make that the norm.  Most QB's who are very poor their first year turn out to be busts.  That's the odds.  Same goes for Coaches.

[Ecuadorian Jet]

6 hours ago, More Cowbell said:

I think it's  a really bad quote. It shows the media is getting to him but it does show he thinks this team is good. Hopefully  he can show it on the field. 

Yes, and actually what he said afterwards to clarify his intention was perfect and what he should have said from the get go, which actually goes along with what you say: "dont tell me you are good, show me you are good"

[Skeptable]

11 minutes ago, Warfish said:

4-14 is more than enough to start forming evaluation/opinions of the Coaching staff.

There seems to be a belief that no judgement, no evaluation, can be done of Coaches or QB's till they've completed multiple seasons first.  That is not a viewpoint I find valid in anyway.  Keep in mind that evaluation is an ongoing process, it does not end today or Monday.  When new facts come in, evaluations change to reflect them.

By "hold over his head" do you mean evaluate the staff based on their actual record?  If so, yes.

Backhanded compliment, but thank you?  I guess, lol?

You're right.  It shouldn't.  It's unfair.

And yet, life isn't fair.  And yes, the history is something every new coach/GM needs to take into consideration, because fair or not, their timetable for results will be judged (in part) by the history (good or bad).    

I'm not sure what all the "did the right thing" is this time vs. every other GM's housecleaning and roster purging and drafting.

JD has made some picks I like, but I don't see JD's process as much different that that of some previous GM's.  Purge, Draft, FA's, same as always.

JD drafted Wilson, Wilson has played very poorly (in 21') and missed time, and is now missing time again.  That is a valid criticism of the GM that drafted him.

Is ti fair to Saleh?  Perhaps not, but see above, life isn't fair.  I don't think it's fair I have to waste a Sunday watching Joe f'ing Flacco either, lol.  

You may want to re-watch much of last season, if you can stomach it.  That team was sloppy and utterly uncompetitive for most of the season.

I'm not calling for his head.  At no point have I advocated he be fired now.  Nor, in my experience, is anyone else.

The strongest takes I've seen are simply to evaluate him at year's end and see if we're still materially worse on the field than we were before he got here, despite having what we all agree is materially better overall talent.

Again, life isn't fair.  QB he assuredly agreed to draft with JD goes down, he better have a valid backup plan to still compete.  

We see that game very differently then.  The Jets were effectively uncompetitive vs. the Ravens, we were never really "in it", and definitely weren't in the 2nd half.  That game was never really in doubt.  Not getting blown out isn't good enough.

The end game of that is "He must improve, and start showing results".

Failure to do that is his firing.  By JD, not by the fans.

Nope, see above.

All three are in the same position, they need to start showing results to justify continued investment in them.

I'm sorry Skep, but you do not get to lose and lose and lose and keep your jobs in the NFL of today.  Just doesn't work that way.  You must show cause for ongoing time and investment.

It's early yet for Saleh and Zach (the two is most risk as of today IMO), they have time to produce this year (or prove the doubters correct).

Make no mistake, plenty of coaches and QB's only get two full years to prove themselves before being let go, if the results are poor enough.

There are no "6 Year Plans" for Coaches and QB's in the NFL.

And yet it is, and will be.  As I say, life isn't fair, most of all to loyal Jets Fans, but it is what it is.

If Saleh didn't understand that when he took the job, he far less intelligent than I give him credit.

Why do you care if some portion of fans "call for his firing"?  It has absolutely no effect on Saleh or the team, they are not here at JN reading our posts.  If they, that alone is a fireable offense in my book, lol, they have much better things to do with their time.

I think some of you need to chill out, and let people think what they think.  Make your case, of course, post what YOU think, of course, but this idea that your view should over-rule what other fans think is just....odd.  So what if random poster is in fact calling for his firing now.  So what?  As has been said, after all these years of failure, and sitting at 4-14 so far, that frustration is entirely justified.

For every Shannhan, or Taylor, there are a dozen or more Gase's.

Cherry picking the exceptions does not overcome the many more examples of guys who were this level of bad, and never improved.

Same argument we often have about QB's.  Peyton Manning being bad his first year then being awesome doesn't make that the norm.  Most QB's who are very poor their first year turn out to be busts.  That's the odds.  Same goes for Coaches.

Fair points but if the Jets keep firing coaches because of the incompetence of previous coaches they will never turn it around. 

Just like most positions in the NFL or college football 3 years should be the bar for a fair evaluation. Unless for whatever reason they show utter incompetence which has not happened with this team.  Missed assignments, bad turnovers, have happened but that is on the players.

Sure you can say its unfair and life is unfair but this team will end up churning bad teams until there is stability. Improvement should be rewarded not shunned for not being perfect yet.

The reason why Shanahan and Zac Taylor are 'different' is that they are similar complete teardowns as this was. Also proves that you need a couple years to evaluate the coaching position. Adam Gase and Bowles were not even close. Mangini was the closest to doing this but it turned out he wasn't very good at coaching and better at picking talent and developing it. Hence why Rex had a head start.

Previous GMs didn't get rid of every single player of a past GM and start over with mostly drafting talent EVER... Sure many have tried competitive rebuilds getting some high priced vets and filling the gaps with draft picks... this GM is trying to have a full squad of starters with almost only draft picks with a couple of veterans to fill in key positions... this is very different then previous GMs.

Nobody is asking for a 6 year plan... I am just saying 1 game into his second year is a bit too premature in my opinion... 3 years is the best because then they have mostly their players, an established system, and they have gone through the rookie growing pains.

 

[Warfish]

25 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

Fair points but if the Jets keep firing coaches because of the incompetence of previous coaches they will never turn it around. 

Respectfully, if Saleh and his Team produce a 4-13 season, and follow it up with another similar 3-4-5 win season, there would be ample evidence that it is Saleh's own incompetence that would be his undoing.

25 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

Just like most positions in the NFL or college football 3 years should be the bar for a fair evaluation.

I do not agree.  I think that number is entirely artificial.  

25 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

Sure you can say its unfair and life is unfair but this team will end up churning bad teams until there is stability.

It's a chicken and egg debate my friend, we won't have stability until someone earns it with results.

25 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

Improvement should be rewarded not shunned for not being perfect yet.

We were a 7 win team before Saleh arrived.  With materially worse talent.

JD can argue he's improved this team.  I am far from convinced Saleh can make the same case (and I was 100% behind his hiring, to be clear, so this isn't a "I never wanted Zach in the first place" argument).

25 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

The reason why Shanahan and Zac Taylor are 'different' is that they are similar complete teardowns as this was.

There is no such thing as a "complete teardown".  Every team does the same three things every offseason, the cut overpriced players and trade players that don't fit, they draft players, and the sign FA's.  Every GM we've had has done that (mostly poorly).  When JD arrived he dumped the previous guys bust QB (not exactly rare for new GM's) and traded our attitude-ridden overpriced Strong Safety (again, not rare).  That's not a "complete teardown" any different than what most GM's try to do.  JD drafted players and signed veteran FA's, just like any GM would.  The "complete rebuild/teardown" is PR to buy more time, that's all.

The only real difference is JD put more emphasis on Offense than we've done in a long time.  Both in Draft and FA.  Especially O-line.  Which, sad to say, all looks to have failed (with the O-line) so far.

25 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

Nobody is asking for a 6 year plan... I am just saying 1 game into his second year is a bit too premature in my opinion.

For what?  To actually fire him (as if we fans had that power)?  Sure, I agree. 

To evaluate him?  No, I don;t agree, we've seen plenty to evalute so far.

25 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

.. 3 years is the best because then they have mostly their players, an established system, and they have gone through the rookie growing pains.

Well, the odds say you will get your wish and get three years (minimum) for Saleh, I don't see any real world scenario, no matter how bad we are in 2022, that JD fires Saleh this offseason.  So we'll see how it plays out, and if Saleh earns it with results, my evaluation (at least) will change with the new facts at hand.  Same as I say for Zachy.