Here's how to fix the DH issue.

[AFJF]

Okay, I prefer the DH over allowing some pitcher to go up there, embarass himself and the game of baseball, while killing a rally, or being pinch hit for to bring an end to a great pitchers duel.

However, I do not like the fact that some players can make a living havig to do one thing and one thing only. I agree with those who say everybody should have to play defense (and I don't mean once a week).

The DH IMO is a great tool to take away the "free out" given to NL pitchers while giving another player a bit of rest without losing his bat for that particular game.

My suggestion.....no player can DH more than three times in a ten game span. That means everybody plays defense more than half the time and we can stop watching these pitchers humiliate themselves and make NL pitchers work just as hard as AL pitchers.

What the hell, even if the NL wants to keep the free out to make life easier on their pitchers on the mound then at least let the AL keep the DH but implement the new rule.

Opinions?

[Scott Dierking]

I would tell you that I love seeing National League pitchers hit in the game.

It makes a manager have to make more decisions related to how long he keeps his starting pitcher in a tight game, and how to manipulate his bench.

I can go on and on, but this point has been belabored.

I just believe it puts more strategy in the game. Managers who have manged both leagues have said as much.

I do not believe that is for everyone, though. It does give a slight advantage to the AL in interleague games in AL parks.

[Bob]

I'd rather let a guy like Ortiz make a living as a DH than watch pitchers flail away like they're trapped in a car with a bee,

[SouthernJet]

I would tell you that I love seeing National League pitchers hit in the game.

It makes a manager have to make more decisions related to how long he keeps his starting pitcher in a tight game, and how to manipulate his bench.

I can go on and on, but this point has been belabored.

I just believe it puts more strategy in the game. Managers who have manged both leagues have said as much.

I do not believe that is for everyone, though. It does give a slight advantage to the AL in interleague games in AL parks.

ditto,,,

DH took so much strategy out of game its sad,,LaRussa said he was bored in AL..Torre has made like comments,,Bart Giamatti was on record as saying his next act was to ban the DH before he croaked,,even the Commish hated it...

DH basically amped up the game to simulate a video game,, a pitcher is part of game,,simple,, he hits also,, does a crappy NBA giant foul shooter get pulled for foul shots? No, he shoots them,,but I guess the video game crowd would luv DH fould shooters so the game would have afew more points,, at the expense of oodles of strategy...sad,,very sad,,,

[Scott Dierking]

I'd rather let a guy like Ortiz make a living as a DH than watch pitchers flail away like they're trapped in a car with a bee,

It creates strategy in the game, Bob.

What a wonderful thing to have to take a great game and artificially inject a position that is one dimensional and serves the purpose to appease a player's union so that it can prolong careers and allow push button managing.

Here is what it has become-It is pretty evident that barry Bonds will not be able to play for a NL team next year. The solution-Let him have a cushy AL DH job so that he can be a smirking, smarmy teammate in that league.

Yeah, what a great invention.

[SouthernJet]

It creates strategy in the game, Bob.

What a wonderful thing to have to take a great game and artificially inject a position that is one dimensional and serves the purpose to appease a player's union so that it can prolong careers and allow push button managing.

Here is what it has become-It is pretty evident that barry Bonds will not be able to play for a NL team next year. The solution-Let him have a cushy AL DH job so that he can be a smirking, smarmy teammate in that league.

Yeah, what a great invention.

bottom line is anyone who grew up in non DH years and has been exposed to both doesnt like the DH,, they are saavy enough to realize it changed babseball from a strategic gem to a video game,,

those people who only know the DH via thier AL allegiances obviuosly like the DH cause thats what they know and since they watch AL thier head hurts when they try to fathom the strategfic nuances of what baseball was meant to be,,

You know sometimes in real life there is a Baltic and there is a Park Avenue,, just reality,,

[NIGHT STALKER]

bottom line is anyone who grew up in non DH years and has been exposed to both doesnt like the DH,, they are saavy enough to realize it changed babseball from a strategic gem to a video game,,

those people who only know the DH via thier AL allegiances obviuosly like the DH cause thats what they know and since they watch AL thier head hurts when they try to fathom the strategfic nuances of what baseball was meant to be,,

You know sometimes in real life there is a Baltic and there is a Park Avenue,, just reality,,

Well, I was around before the DH and I like it...as a matter of fact, if the DH was around say, in the mid 60's, perhaps guys like Mantle could have had more productive years at the end. And that goes for Mays as well...he completely embarrassed himself in the outfield for the Mets.

[Scott Dierking]

Well, I was around before the DH and I like it...as a matter of fact, if the DH was around say, in the mid 60's, perhaps guys like Mantle could have had more productive years at the end. And that goes for Mays as well...he completely embarrassed himself in the outfield for the Mets.

Why the intrigue for fading stars? Willie was an embarrassment at the plate as well for the Mets.

When you have to introduce ideas that heighten the "excitement" in your sport, you are in trouble.

[NIGHT STALKER]

Why the intrigue for fading stars? Willie was an embarrassment at the plate as well for the Mets.

When you have to introduce ideas that heighten the "excitement" in your sport, you are in trouble.

That's true Scott, but baseball lost two of its all time great ballplayers with Mantle and Mays...I just think if they could have preserved their legs for a couple of years, they may have gone out in better style.

Plus, where would Big Papi play...

[SouthernJet]

Well, I was around before the DH and I like it...as a matter of fact, if the DH was around say, in the mid 60's, perhaps guys like Mantle could have had more productive years at the end. And that goes for Mays as well...he completely embarrassed himself in the outfield for the Mets.

it amazees me that people say throw out the great strategy so you can see a slowed, injured faded star a few more years at the plate??? Isnt the game more important than seeing old stars a few more years,,, it always seemed penny wise dollar foolish to me...

plus in most cases they look washed up,,Mantle was a washed up minpor leaguer by the time he ledy,, you actuallt wanted to se him embarasse dmore,, he could hardly run to 1st base...

remember, the game is more important than the players,, there will always be players,,,

[Scott Dierking]

That's true Scott, but baseball lost two of its all time great ballplayers with Mantle and Mays...I just think if they could have preserved their legs for a couple of years, they may have gone out in better style.

Plus, where would Big Papi play...

I understand that there are 2 opinions to this rule.

I would just feel violated if they ever decided to take the DH rule for both leagues.

Maybe it is good for baseball that there is a different approach to the game, and it creates discussion, which is only good.

[SouthernJet]

That's true Scott, but baseball lost two of its all time great ballplayers with Mantle and Mays...I just think if they could have preserved their legs for a couple of years, they may have gone out in better style.

Plus, where would Big Papi play...

1st base like McCovey,,

its a trade off,, a strong battleship thats not fast,, thats why the NL game simulated real life,, tradeoffs,, strenghts weakenesses,, a known hole in the offense where you plan your defesnive strategy etc,, iyts actually very cerebral if you take the time to watch,, its not just Maden video all TDs, HRs etc,,

[Bob]

When you have to introduce ideas that heighten the "excitement" in your sport, you are in trouble.

You mean like seperate offensive and defensive squads in football? They used to play both ways. Let's have quarterbacks play defense.

I like seeing the best available hitter against the best available pitcher. Lack of DH has turned the NL into a minor league.

[NIGHT STALKER]

it amazees me that people say throw out the great strategy so you can see a slowed, injured faded star a few more years at the plate??? Isnt the game more important than seeing old stars a few more years,,, it always seemed penny wise dollar foolish to me...

plus in most cases they look washed up,,Mantle was a washed up minpor leaguer by the time he ledy,, you actuallt wanted to se him embarasse dmore,, he could hardly run to 1st base...

remember, the game is more important than the players,, there will always be players,,,

Maybe I'm being selfish SJ, but perhaps if after the first couple of injuries to Mantle, he could have been the DH right away...I can remember this guy getting his leg caught in the center field fence in Baltimore (it was chain link back then) and breaking it. Not a pretty sight to see.

They sure as hell switched Edgar Martinez to DH after a few injuries...the guy went on to be a future HOF'er.

[Scott Dierking]

You mean like seperate offensive and defensive squads in football? They used to play both ways. Let's have quarterbacks play defense.

I like seeing the best available hitter against the best available pitcher. Lack of DH has turned the NL into a minor league.

Bob, I forget, what positions were "created" as the NFL became more of a specialist sport and less 2-way?

[Sharrow]

Like I said before, the NL > (AL - DH - $$$)

DH is stupid.

[wildthing2022000]

Bob, I forget, what positions were "created" as the NFL became more of a specialist sport and less 2-way?

Punter/Kicker what's the damn difference? Why can't 1 guy do both?

[The Troll]

You mean like seperate offensive and defensive squads in football? They used to play both ways. Let's have quarterbacks play defense.

I like seeing the best available hitter against the best available pitcher. Lack of DH has turned the NL into a minor league.

The only reason the DH was established in the first place is because of how dominant the NL was.

It was a case of "If you can't beat 'em, then make **** up".

[Bob]

NL fans, saying their league is better because it has no DH, sound just like Milhouse on The Simpsons telling Bart, "My mom says I'm cool!"

[NIGHT STALKER]

The only reason the DH was established in the first place is because of how dominant the NL was.

It was a case of "If you can't beat 'em, then make **** up".

Dominant? That's a stab at humor, right? Last time I checked, the idea is to win the WS...and what league has won more of those?

[Sharrow]

NL fans, saying their league is better because it has no DH, sound just like Milhouse on The Simpsons telling Bart, "My mom says I'm cool!"

That depends on the definition/perception of "better" and the definition/perception of "cool."

[PFSIKH]

It makes a manager have to make more decisions related to how long he keeps his starting pitcher in a tight game, and how to manipulate his bench.

I just believe it puts more strategy in the game. Managers who have manged both leagues have said as much.

I think this reasoning is a little overblown.

I am not saying this is absolute because there are obviously times when NL managers will pull a pitcher for strategic purposes.

However, I am just saying how many times does it happen above where the pitcher is pitching a very good to great game and they pull him.

Or, it is a matter of the pitcher is pitching ok or worse, he is at his pitch count or they really need an AB from someone that can hit.

Either way need to go one way across the board.

[Scott Dierking]

I think this reasoning is a little overblown.

I am not saying this is absolute because there are obviously times when NL managers will pull a pitcher for strategic purposes.

However, I am just saying how many times does it happen above where the pitcher is pitching a very good to great game and they pull him.

Or, it is a matter of the pitcher is pitching ok or worse, he is at his pitch count or they really need an AB from someone that can hit.

Either way need to go one way across the board.

Pfsikh, it happens often if you watch the NL games. A pitcher is pulled from a 2-2 game in the 7th with a runner on 2nd and 2 out.

Double switches? AL Managers hardly know what they are.

Watching AL ball is like watching a local kegger softball team play station to station baseball, as their guts wallow around the bases.

[AFJF]

The only reason the DH was established in the first place is because of how dominant the NL was.

It was a case of "If you can't beat 'em, then make **** up".

Domninant? In the 20 world series that were played leading up to the first season of the DH, the NL held a dominating 11-9 lead. The two leagues were on season off from a 50/50 split of the previous two decades (with the AL winning 3 of the previous 5) but the NL was dominant? Please explain how an 11-9 advantage makes one league dominant over the other.

[AFJF]

Watching AL ball is like watching a local kegger softball team play station to station baseball, as their guts wallow around the bases.

So is it good or bad for the NL that they were completely dominated this season when playing against a league made up of "local keggers"?

[Scott Dierking]

So is it good or bad for the NL that they were completely dominated this season when playing against a league made up of "local keggers"?

AFJF-The fact that the AL dominated the NL this year is not cogent to the DH argument at all. How do you see that being a part of the debate?

I have stated numerous times in this thread that I understand that there is a differnce of opinion and what a particular fan likes.

personally, I like having the strategy of having to manage your bench a little more tightly, worrying about whether to pinch hit your pitchers, double switching and worrying about running short of players. I brings more nuances into a game.

Here are the other stereotypes that developed between the leagues, that were somewhat true at differnt points, that made me like NL ball as well

-NLers were more apt to use the stolen bas as an arsenal in their game. That is still primarily true, though teh gap has closed.

-NL pitchers tended to be "flamethrowers" and AL pitchers tended to be "junkballers". This has actually gone the other way in recent years, but it held true for a good 20 years.

[AFJF]

AFJF-The fact that the AL dominated the NL this year is not cogent to the DH argument at all. How do you see that being a part of the debate?

I have stated numerous times in this thread that I understand that there is a differnce of opinion and what a particular fan likes.

personally, I like having the strategy of having to manage your bench a little more tightly, worrying about whether to pinch hit your pitchers, double switching and worrying about running short of players. I brings more nuances into a game.

Here are the other stereotypes that developed between the leagues, that were somewhat true at differnt points, that made me like NL ball as well

-NLers were more apt to use the stolen bas as an arsenal in their game. That is still primarily true, though teh gap has closed.

-NL pitchers tended to be "flamethrowers" and AL pitchers tended to be "junkballers". This has actually gone the other way in recent years, but it held true for a good 20 years.

Here's the thing that I don't want to have misunderstood. I agree that the game is more fun to have more moves for a manager to make. I think strategy is great for the game. However, I prefer moves being made because of a match up between lefty/lefty or using a guy to pinch hit because he's better at moving a runner over as opposed to the slugger who is due up. I think that stuff is great. I cannot however, get used to the idea of having to pull a guy because the rules say you have to put him in a position to do something that even the player knows he is not capable of doing. It's just silly to me. I don't think either league should get a free out. If you as a pitcher have to face nine guys, you should have to face nine guys who know how to hit.

Like you, I understand that there are those who have their reasons for and against the DH and I guess thats mine. I dont feel that there should be any position in sports where failure is expected and tolerated. When a pitcher steps up to the plate with runners on and just needs to put the ball in play to make something happen, people just shrug it off when they don't get it done. They say "he's a pitcher, what do you expect". Me? I expect to see a guy capable of hitting the ball being asked to hit the ball as opposed to a guy who's hitting .125 with no career HRs and an RBI once every two or three months.

Of course the reason I started this post was to get opinions on how to change the rules for a DH because I am not a fan of taking a guy who can't play defense and hiding him all season. If you get to hit regularly, you should have to play the field more than half the time. JMO

[Scott Dierking]

Here's the thing that I don't want to have misunderstood. I agree that the game is more fun to have more moves for a manager to make. I think strategy is great for the game. However, I prefer moves being made because of a match up between lefty/lefty or using a guy to pinch hit because he's better at moving a runner over as opposed to the slugger who is due up. I think that stuff is great. I cannot however, get used to the idea of having to pull a guy because the rules say you have to put him in a position to do something that even the player knows he is not capable of doing. It's just silly to me. I don't think either league should get a free out. If you as a pitcher have to face nine guys, you should have to face nine guys who know how to hit.

Like you, I understand that there are those who have their reasons for and against the DH and I guess thats mine. I dont feel that there should be any position in sports where failure is expected and tolerated. When a pitcher steps up to the plate with runners on and just needs to put the ball in play to make something happen, people just shrug it off when they don't get it done. They say "he's a pitcher, what do you expect". Me? I expect to see a guy capable of hitting the ball being asked to hit the ball as opposed to a guy who's hitting .125 with no career HRs and an RBI once every two or three months.

Of course the reason I started this post was to get opinions on how to change the rules for a DH because I am not a fan of taking a guy who can't play defense and hiding him all season. If you get to hit regularly, you should have to play the field more than half the time. JMO

AFJF- i a pitcher wants to, he is not the "easy out" that you make him out to be.

As a matter of fact, some pitchers are well known to "help themselves out" and do so often. Greg maddux and Tom Glavine are prolific bunters and move men up all the time. Maddux is very adept with the bat.

Livan Hernandez and Dontrelle Willis are "excellent" hitters for pitchers.

The Braves of the '90's and the Mets of the '80's took pride in their hitting pitchers and it was a good part of their successes as a team.

It doesn't have to be a "punt" situation as you make it out to be.

[NIGHT STALKER]

AFJF- i a pitcher wants to, he is not the "easy out" that you make him out to be.

As a matter of fact, some pitchers are well known to "help themselves out" and do so often. Greg maddux and Tom Glavine are prolific bunters and move men up all the time. Maddux is very adept with the bat.

Livan Hernandez and Dontrelle Willis are "excellent" hitters for pitchers.

The Braves of the '90's and the Mets of the '80's took pride in their hitting pitchers and it was a good part of their successes as a team.

It doesn't have to be a "punt" situation as you make it out to be.

Scott, that is not the norm. Most pitchers are easy outs...let's face it, the bottom part of a lineup are not the best hitters in the world. If they were, you wouldn't have a pitcher batting ninth. When's the last time you saw a DH batting ninth in anyone's lineup?

[Scott Dierking]

Scott, that is not the norm. Most pitchers are easy outs...let's face it, the bottom part of a lineup are not the best hitters in the world. If they were, you wouldn't have a pitcher batting ninth. When's the last time you saw a DH batting ninth in anyone's lineup?

What is wrong with having 'easy outs" in the game. It affects strategy.

Ozzie Smith was an easy out for the greater part of his career. Should we have instituted a designated Ozzie?

Vince Coleman had close to zero power in his game. Should we have gone the Charlie O way and instituted a designated runner for once through the line up?

Should AROD have a designated fielder that can take his place, so we don't have to watch that?

The argument seems to be that it is such a horrible thing to have a non-germane element to the game, when they exist all over baseball.

[AFJF]

AFJF- i a pitcher wants to, he is not the "easy out" that you make him out to be.

As a matter of fact, some pitchers are well known to "help themselves out" and do so often. Greg maddux and Tom Glavine are prolific bunters and move men up all the time. Maddux is very adept with the bat.

Livan Hernandez and Dontrelle Willis are "excellent" hitters for pitchers.

The Braves of the '90's and the Mets of the '80's took pride in their hitting pitchers and it was a good part of their successes as a team.

It doesn't have to be a "punt" situation as you make it out to be.

SD, I'm aware of the fact that there are a handful of guys who can handle the bat fairly well, however, of the 320 or so pitchers in the Majors, the fact that a few of them can hit does not change the fact that roughly 300 of them can't.

[Scott Dierking]

SD, I'm aware of the fact that there are a handful of guys who can handle the bat fairly well, however, of the 320 or so pitchers in the Majors, the fact that a few of them can hit does not change the fact that roughly 300 of them can't.

i can deal with the fact that there are 2 at bats in each game for the team that I root for, where the hitter is not considered "dangerous".

To me, it even adds further element to the game.

[AFJF]

i can deal with the fact that there are 2 at bats in each game for the team that I root for, where the hitter is not considered "dangerous".

To me, it even adds further element to the game.

Not so much that 95% of the time they're not dangerous...what gets me is that theyre rarely even competent.

To each his own though.

[Scott Dierking]

Not so much that 95% of the time they're not dangerous...what gets me is that theyre rarely even competent.

To each his own though.

But, the fact remains that it is equal competitively (each side has the disadvantage), it creates more strategy in the game, and a team can nake itself much better by exposing that disadv antage or using it to their benefit.

if you are telling me that pitchers can't hit, I know that.

[AFJF]

But, the fact remains that it is equal competitively (each side has the disadvantage), it creates more strategy in the game, and a team can nake itself much better by exposing that disadv antage or using it to their benefit.

if you are telling me that pitchers can't hit, I know that.

We can agree to disagree on this one. I would never condone adding strategy to any sport by taking a player and asking him to do something he's not capable of doing. To me that's more silly than anything. Hey isn't this great, we just lost our QB for the season because of that new rule that says your kicker has to play LT on 3rd down. Well hey, now the coach has to use strategy to make a new gameplan for the back-up QB.

I know thats a stretch, but thats what it looks like to me when I see pitchers hit. Like Mike Nugent blocking Simeon Rice. Granted, every few plays he might fall down and get tangled up in his legs and we could say he "blocked" him, but it's just silly to me.

I respect your opinion SD, so like I said...we can agree to disagree on this one.