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The Official Discuss The Debate (BZ-TX) Thread

Maxman

By Maxman
in NY Jets Forum

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PFSIKH

PFSIKH

Posted
Posted
I don't think it's arguable that the Pats once WERE a dynasty (although we do need to clarify exactly what that means). However, they are NOT the dominant team they once were which is why IMHO they are no longer a dynasty. Those years are over. We couldn't compete with the dynasty for one reason or another (cough Herm cough Hackett cough plenty of other reasons) but we have competed successfully this year with a rookie HC against the Pats. It's still a great win. Do the Pats have a chance in hell of winning another Superbowl in the next few years? Not the way I see it... not a chance... they'll be watching the Jets win won first. Yes, that's an opinion, but the jets DO seem to be moving in the opposite direction, developmentally, then the Pats. It doesn't matter what Patsies will ADMIT...

Why?

Outside of wide receiver, where do the Jets have an advantage?

QB - No. Not even close.

RB - No. Maroney has tipped this in the Patriots favor.

TE - No. Not even close.

OL - No. Brick and Mangold are good, but the Patriots have 5 good starters and depth. Only 1 player over 30.

DL - No. Not even close.

LB - Push. If not for age, this would a Patriots edge.

CB - Push.

The Patriots are young. 14 of their 22 starters have played and won in a Superbowl. 10 of them are under 30. Now, I am not saying the Patriots should be favorites to win this year. They have flaws. Ultimately, it will in all probability be their downfall.

What is your thought process for saying the Patriots "do not stand a chance in hell" of winning the Superbowl?

We still have the QB. We still have the brilliant Coach. We still have alot of the players that won before.

The Jets have closed the gap. No doubt. They are moving in the right direction. The Patriots have more pieces in place. Their defeicencies are fewer and correctable. To say they can't win another Superbowl is straight ignorance.

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GimmeShelter

GimmeShelter

Posted
Posted
Nor do you have any to say they will be better.

Mangini has done a great job. However, how does that translate to 2007?

The offense and defense are still in the bottom of the league. SMoke and mirrors only works so long.

The defense has allowed around 15 ppg in the last 7 games so you would have to agree Pfsikh we have made great strides there.

As we slapped Brady and NE's offense around I understand why you have to revert to calling it "smoke and mirrors".

The Jets will attempt to improve the running game as well this off season with our draft picks as well as via FA with the right side of the line likely being upgraded.

The NE off seasons the past 2 years have been questionable in results so saying the Pats have a advantage in that area over the Jets is foolish.

Also in looking at how NE has faired in those same two seasons when facing winning teams, (6-10) by no means makes them a sure thing if the schedule is indeed tougher....something that is not predictable IMO a year in advance but seems to be the main point in most of your argument.

If I am looking at the strides or lack of both our teams have made this year, the Jets are headed in the right direction while NE has taken a step back for a 2nd consecutive season barring a unlikely strong play-off run.

NE could return to the comfortable gap they previously held between the two teams but it will take BB having a much better off season and swallowing a little pride in admitting that maybe he does need to go outside the organization for a OC AND retain key players.

TX is doing ok in the debate but his downfall is predictable due to his obsession with mainly arguing Pennington rather than the entire Jets team.

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#27TheDominator

#27TheDominator

Posted
Posted
Why?

Outside of wide receiver, where do the Jets have an advantage?

QB - No. Not even close.

RB - No. Maroney has tipped this in the Patriots favor.

TE - No. Not even close.

OL - No. Brick and Mangold are good, but the Patriots have 5 good starters and depth. Only 1 player over 30.

DL - No. Not even close.

LB - Push. If not for age, this would a Patriots edge.

CB - Push.

Aren't you still starting Matt Light at left tackle? Hearing Pats fans talk about him is like Jets fans talking about Penny.

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greeniemeanie

greeniemeanie

Posted
Posted

Belichick's a good coach, granted. IMO, The Pats won 3 SB's because they had a brilliant coaching team. Belichick has never won a SB without Weis, Crenel, and Mangini. Maybe, he's just not as good of a coach as all the Pat's fans seem to think.

Belichick's a fraud. A decent coach, maybe even a good coach, but alone Belichick hasn't done anything that leads me to believe he is "brilliant".

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PatsFanTX

PatsFanTX

Posted
Posted

Belichick's a fraud. A decent coach, maybe even a good coach, but alone Belichick hasn't done anything that leads me to believe he is "brilliant".

I guess you didn't catch those playoff games where the Pats completely shut down Manning.

Or the Super Bowl game where they shut down the "greatest show on turf"?

Or what about the 2-5 defense that the Pats employed against the Eagles in the Super Bowl.

You think those were Romeo's and Mangini's defensive game plans?

Yea, BB is a complete fraud.

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greeniemeanie

greeniemeanie

Posted
Posted
I guess you didn't catch those playoff games where the Pats completely shut down Manning.

Or the Super Bowl game where they shut down the "greatest show on turf"?

Or what about the 2-5 defense that the Pats employed against the Eagles in the Super Bowl.

You think those were Romeo's and Mangini's defensive game plans?

Yea, BB is a complete fraud.

Where are your facts??????

As far as I can tell all of your points are opinions. Do you have inside info as to who developed the schemes on D? Or are you just speculating?

Fact is BB has never won a SB without Charlie, Romeo, and Eric.

If you want to employ the fact vs. opinion argument, you must remain consistent. Seems to me it's kind of difficult to debate any argument on that regard that is based upon a completely subjective question.

Note to TX, give up on the fact vs. opinion argument. It has absolutely no place in a debate that is completely subjective. The point is to USE facts to BACKUP your opinions.

On that basis alone, BZ is head and shoulders above you in the debate.

Just trying to help you out....

Because, as to this point, it seems you need it.

:box:

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greeniemeanie

greeniemeanie

Posted
Posted
I guess you didn't catch those playoff games where the Pats completely shut down Manning.

Or the Super Bowl game where they shut down the "greatest show on turf"?

Or what about the 2-5 defense that the Pats employed against the Eagles in the Super Bowl.

You think those were Romeo's and Mangini's defensive game plans?

Yea, BB is a complete fraud.

Yes I do.

Just pick up the book "Patriot Reign" and read about how BB develops game plans.;)

Silly me. I read that book right after I read the book "Ugandi body piercing for beginners"

Why in the hell would a Jets fan read Patriot Reign???

Anyway, my point was simply the fact vs. opinion argument. I wanted to communicate with you in ways you would understand. So rather than get to the point, I figured I would lay it out for you in a long drawn out story since it takes most of you texans about 5 hours to get to the friggan point.....

Good luck in the debate TX.

Question, are your nipples hard?

because chicken's done. BZ has you cooked.

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16G-MONEY

16G-MONEY

Posted
Posted
Why?

Outside of wide receiver, where do the Jets have an advantage?

QB - No. Not even close.

RB - No. Maroney has tipped this in the Patriots favor.

TE - No. Not even close.

OL - No. Brick and Mangold are good, but the Patriots have 5 good starters and depth. Only 1 player over 30.

DL - No. Not even close.

LB - Push. If not for age, this would a Patriots edge.

CB - Push.

The Patriots are young. 14 of their 22 starters have played and won in a Superbowl. 10 of them are under 30. Now, I am not saying the Patriots should be favorites to win this year. They have flaws. Ultimately, it will in all probability be their downfall.

What is your thought process for saying the Patriots "do not stand a chance in hell" of winning the Superbowl?

We still have the QB. We still have the brilliant Coach. We still have alot of the players that won before.

The Jets have closed the gap. No doubt. They are moving in the right direction. The Patriots have more pieces in place. Their defeicencies are fewer and correctable. To say they can't win another Superbowl is straight ignorance.

The Pariots are a shell of their former selves. Losing Vinatieri was a lot bigger of a deal than you think.

Brady's shoulder IS a concern to the patriots organization whether you'd like to admit it or not... that's why they grabbed Vinny T. To say you currently have us beat at QB is more than fair, but I wish we could have seen a healthy, pre surgery Chad, in the system Brady grew up in... I think he would have been just as good. I know that's like assuming a physics experiment in a vacuum, but it's an interesting thought anyway. Brady is a more rounded QB, but Chad back in the day was VERY impressive.

Thank you for the WR concession, however, I'd like to point out that it's superiority to the Pats recieving core is as lopsided as the QB comparison.

D Brick and Mangold are a LOT better than just "good".

To say that our LBs are a "push" is laughable. Your LBs are more than old. It's almost as lopsided as the WR conversation.

PLEASE don't tell me you think your OL has depth. Come on, now. Explain that further.

Your coach is brilliant. I'll give you that. He's a complete *******, but he's a brilliant coach. When we had Herm I used to sit there and say to myself, "I'd give my left nut to have BB as a coach even IF he is an *******. The great thing is... we got a coach that may yet prove to be as brilliant and innovative as BB WITHOUT the attitude AND... here's the kicker... I didn't have to forfeit my nut. Here's the problem for BB, however... Unfortunately, the people who surrounded him during his dynasty years (may those years rest in peace) are gone. Mangini, Crenel, aand Weiss (in particular) are HUGE losses.

As usual, thank you for being open and actually admitting that A) the Jets have made great strides and B) the Pats aren't invincible.

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SouthernJet

SouthernJet

Posted
Posted
So BZ wins based soley on his "opinions"?

Opinions are like aholes, everyone has one.

Debates are based on arguements supported by facts.

Unfortunately, BZ hasn't provided any yet.

if u want to win u need to go a different route,,

u cant say jets wont be very very good in 2007 when u trash the current team which is going 9-7 or 10-6 in the 1st year with mangini and a new defensive and offensive playbook..

and 2007 will also enable Tangini to jettison 8 to 10 players from roster to get better 'system' fits...

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greeniemeanie

greeniemeanie

Posted
Posted
To learn something about the game of football????

I see you're up on your History.

Not much for Current Events, are ya TX?

That's right....The Patriots WERE the best team in Football, two years ago. If I wanted to learn more about football from yesterday, Namath is a much better read.

Note to TX: 2004, was a looooooooong time ago.

Your kinda like the poor fool who tried to convince Columbus that the Earth was flat.

No matter how hard you try to believe something, sometimes it's just not right. The Patriot's are not the authority on football this year.

If you give me your address, I'll send you Life magazine's Year in Pictures for 2005 and 2006 to get you up to speed.

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PFSIKH

PFSIKH

Posted
Posted
The Pariots are a shell of their former selves. Losing Vinatieri was a lot bigger of a deal than you think.

Brady's shoulder IS a concern to the patriots organization whether you'd like to admit it or not... that's why they grabbed Vinny T. To say you currently have us beat at QB is more than fair, but I wish we could have seen a healthy, pre surgery Chad, in the system Brady grew up in... I think he would have been just as good. I know that's like assuming a physics experiment in a vacuum, but it's an interesting thought anyway. Brady is a more rounded QB, but Chad back in the day was VERY impressive.

Thank you for the WR concession, however, I'd like to point out that it's superiority to the Pats recieving core is as lopsided as the QB comparison.

D Brick and Mangold are a LOT better than just "good".

To say that our LBs are a "push" is laughable. Your LBs are more than old. It's almost as lopsided as the WR conversation.

PLEASE don't tell me you think your OL has depth. Come on, now. Explain that further.

Your coach is brilliant. I'll give you that. He's a complete *******, but he's a brilliant coach. When we had Herm I used to sit there and say to myself, "I'd give my left nut to have BB as a coach even IF he is an *******. The great thing is... we got a coach that may yet prove to be as brilliant and innovative as BB WITHOUT the attitude AND... here's the kicker... I didn't have to forfeit my nut. Here's the problem for BB, however... Unfortunately, the people who surrounded him during his dynasty years (may those years rest in peace) are gone. Mangini, Crenel, aand Weiss (in particular) are HUGE losses.

As usual, thank you for being open and actually admitting that A) the Jets have made great strides and B) the Pats aren't invincible.

Fair points.

I agree the Patriots have lost some significant pieces. From coaches to players, alot of big pieces wear other uniforms.

My only disagreement is is that the Patriots 'do not stand a chance in hell' of winning the Superbowl. Even San Diego depite all their talent has essentially a rookie QB and Marty. It might not be probable, but it is not impossible that the Patriots could win this year. Or next.

I think you are reading into the VT signing too much. The Patriots carried two QBS all year. Running that risk for a game is one thing, for a playoff game is another. Brady has had shoulder issues for years. Their OL does have some depth, most of their back-ups have had significant starting time over the last two years due to injuries.

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#27TheDominator

#27TheDominator

Posted
Posted
Fair points.

I agree the Patriots have lost some significant pieces. From coaches to players, alot of big pieces wear other uniforms.

My only disagreement is is that the Patriots 'do not stand a chance in hell' of winning the Superbowl. Even San Diego depite all their talent has essentially a rookie QB and Marty. It might not be probable, but it is not impossible that the Patriots could win this year. Or next.

I think you are reading into the VT signing too much. The Patriots carried two QBS all year. Running that risk for a game is one thing, for a playoff game is another. Brady has had shoulder issues for years. Their OL does have some depth, most of their back-ups have had significant starting time over the last two years due to injuries.

Experience is nice, but how many of them suck donkey doinks?

I agree with your general premise: The Pats do stand a fair chance of winning the big one. Hell the Jets even have the possibility. I'd put the Pats about 5th, but two of the teams ahead have Peyton at qb and Marty at coach, so they sure have a chance, but my guess is that one of them-probably Marty gets it done.

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PFSIKH

PFSIKH

Posted
Posted
Experience is nice, but how many of them suck donkey doinks?

I agree with your general premise: The Pats do stand a fair chance of winning the big one. Hell the Jets even have the possibility. I'd put the Pats about 5th, but two of the teams ahead have Peyton at qb and Marty at coach, so they sure have a chance, but my guess is that one of them-probably Marty gets it done.

27, but Scarnecchia is a great coach. He gets alot of the parts he has had to assemble. None of them will be allpro, but when called they all have done a decent job. If they signed with the Jets tomorrow, they would not be as good.

Who is the 5th? The top 3 in the AFC and Denver?

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shawn306

shawn306

Posted
Posted
I guess you didn't catch those playoff games where the Pats completely shut down Manning.

Or the Super Bowl game where they shut down the "greatest show on turf"?

Or what about the 2-5 defense that the Pats employed against the Eagles in the Super Bowl.

You think those were Romeo's and Mangini's defensive game plans?

Yea, BB is a complete fraud.

Greatest Show on Turf: Wasn't that the one that they had to have AV bail them out at the last second ?

Hey wait that was the same defense that made Jake Delhomme look like Peyton Manning in 03. That same D that got bailed out again by AV.

The D had good moments and some very VERY shakey moments during that run.

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