Our D-line. How big a hole is there in the middle?

[ARodJetsFan]

I don't mean he'll have to retire soon because he's so old. I mean 28 is awfully old to have accomplished nothing in the league. Few 28 year old guys come out of nowhere and make a big impact. Therefore, I don't expect much. Especially since he hasn't managed to stay healthy. Besides, his rookie contract is probably up soon and if he plays well we'll lose him anyway.

If, by chance, Pouha has a breakout year (and I know that's a big if) Tangini will make short work of resigning him, much like they did with BT, no question in my mind.

[PeterNorth09]

I don't mean he'll have to retire soon because he's so old. I mean 28 is awfully old to have accomplished nothing in the league. Few 28 year old guys come out of nowhere and make a big impact. Therefore, I don't expect much. Especially since he hasn't managed to stay healthy. Besides, his rookie contract is probably up soon and if he plays well we'll lose him anyway.

I don't know how people are all of a sudden getting so optimistic with Sione Pouha. The guy looked awful his rookie and then lost a ton of weight last off-season before getting seriously hurt.

Bradway reached like crazy for him in the 3rd round in 2005. That pick was almost as big a reach as Mangini reaching for Schlegel in round 3 in 2006. Now all of a sudden he's the answer for us at Nose Tackle.

[jetfuel]

I've been thinking about the middle of our D-Line and we may not be in as bad a shape as I thought, especially in light of the fact that we have made absolutely no effort to upgrade it to this point.

There doesn't seem to be any major help coming to the middle of the D-Line via the draft either so lets look at who we have.

There are 2 big questions in 2 key players that need to be answered.

First off let me start by saying I think D-Rob can and will play well at NT but he can't play that position for every defensive snap which leads me to where I'm trying to go with this:

2 guys immediately come to mind:

Sione Pouha and C.J. Mosely.

Both have the size to play NT, Mosely is the smaller of the two 6'2" @ 314.

Pouha obviously needs to stay healthy, he is a guy that I had high hopes for last year, maybe he can prove me right this year.

C.J. Mosely is a guy that has intrigued me since we traded for him, hopefully with a full training camp this off-season under Mangini, he can come into his own.

Thoughts?

I think both of them deserve a shot to split time with D-Rob and the NT position is not as big of a concern as many seem to think if you look at the way the D played in the 2nd half last season (especially D-Rob).

I also think there are a couple of guys they can take a look at in the late rounds like Louis Leonard from Fresno St. (6'4 353) and Paul Soliai from Utah (6'3 319) ... both should be around on Day 2 and may be worth a shot .... especially Leonard.

They also have Tui Alafeuleila (I think I spelled that wrong) that weighs about 350 and looked pretty good in pre-season last year before getting hurt and missing the season. They picked up a beast named Zarnell Fitch who played at TCU and Kenyatta Marshall who they took from Philly who both weigh over 320 to compete for a spot in camp too. I think they'll be fine. Monsterous NT's with amazing abilities and ox-like strength combined with a great motor don't come along every day. They should be able to make do with a little better play from the DE position and more speed & pressure off the edge from the OLB's. Hopefully one of the guys they have in camp will shine and have a healthy platoon with D-Rob. There are teams with far bigger problems than the Jets right now and a lot less talent on D.

[jetfuel]

D-Rob is not a NT. He played decent later on in the season against some horrific offenses like the Raiders and Vikings. Actually, he didn't even play that good against the Raiders because Justin Fargas looked like a damn pro-bowler in that game.

I agree that upgrading at RDE will help Robertson but ultimately trying to mask Dewayne Robertson is going to be a problem especially for our run defense.

Unfortunately Mangini has his hands tied due to D-Rob's contract situation.

They gave up 1 rushing TD in the 2nd half of the season. D-Rob finished up with 62 tackles. How many did Kimo have at RE? 28! Ellis had 58 for the year. Is the problem D-Rob or has the sports media corrupted our better judgement. NT's don't grow on trees and we have a pretty damn good one that just needs a healthy body or two to share some time with him.

[#27TheDominator]

If, by chance, Pouha has a breakout year (and I know that's a big if) Tangini will make short work of resigning him, much like they did with BT, no question in my mind.

Locking a guy up long term off of one decent season is not something I'm in love with. Especially and injury prone old guy. Personally, I'm not that impressed with BT's "breakout" season. He was good, but far from great IMO.

[PeterNorth09]

They gave up 1 rushing TD in the 2nd half of the season. D-Rob finished up with 62 tackles. How many did Kimo have at RE? 28! Ellis had 58 for the year. Is the problem D-Rob or has the sports media corrupted our better judgement. NT's don't grow on trees and we have a pretty damn good one that just needs a healthy body or two to share some time with him.

Before you start to get really carried away with D-Rob keep in mind we had that last year we had the 24th ranked run defense giving up 130 yards a game while having the easiest schedule in the NFL. Blame Kimo all you want but the lack of a true NT didn't help. I agree that upgrading Kimo will help Robertson but he's still a flaw in our defense and we have a much tougher schedule this year.

[drago]

Before you start to get really carried away with D-Rob keep in mind we had that last year we had the 24th ranked run defense giving up 130 yards a game while having the easiest schedule in the NFL. Blame Kimo all you want but the lack of a true NT didn't help. I agree that upgrading Kimo will help Robertson but he's still a flaw in our defense and we have a much tougher schedule this year.

A flaw? You make it sound like he flat out cannot play, then you say upgrading kimo will help robertson. If you are going to call Drob a flaw, then you could say that about 8 of the starting 11 defenders.

I know we can upgrade, but at what cost? And why upgrade a position that is, for what its worth, filled with decent talent?

[PeterNorth09]

A flaw? You make it sound like he flat out cannot play, then you say upgrading kimo will help robertson. If you are going to call Drob a flaw, then you could say that about 8 of the starting 11 defenders.

I know we can upgrade, but at what cost? And why upgrade a position that is, for what its worth, filled with decent talent?

I never said he couldn't play. I just don't think he is the answer at NT. I think Chad Pennington can play QB very well but I don't think he is the answer at QB especially long-term.

Upgrading is tricky. In last year's draft we passed over two quality NT's, Ngata and Gabe Watson. This year's draft only seems to have one quality NT in it with Alan Branch and he won't last til #25. There are none in FA.

I can live with Robertson for this year but if we think he is the long-term answer at NT we are kidding ourselves.

[#27TheDominator]

I never said he couldn't play. I just don't think he is the answer at NT. I think Chad Pennington can play QB very well but I don't think he is the answer at QB especially long-term.

Upgrading is tricky. In last year's draft we passed over two quality NT's, Ngata and Gabe Watson. This year's draft only seems to have one quality NT in it with Alan Branch and he won't last til #25. There are none in FA.

I can live with Robertson for this year but if we think he is the long-term answer at NT we are kidding ourselves.

At $9M for '08 he might not be the answer past this year. The thing with Robertson is that even guys that like him, like me, think he'd be better off in the 4-3. We had more success with the 3-4 last year than I thought we would and look married to it now.

The way I look at upgrading is that you have to take opportunities that present themselves. If it's tough to upgrade DRob this year, we'll have to upgrade at DE and/or LB and make him the weak link. Same with qb. You make a case we should have picked Ngata or a qb last year, no sense crying over it now, we can only move forward.

[drago]

At $9M for '08 he might not be the answer past this year. The thing with Robertson is that even guys that like him, like me, think he'd be better off in the 4-3. We had more success with the 3-4 last year than I thought we would and look married to it now.

The way I look at upgrading is that you have to take opportunities that present themselves. If it's tough to upgrade DRob this year, we'll have to upgrade at DE and/or LB and make him the weak link. Same with qb. You make a case we should have picked Ngata or a qb last year, no sense crying over it now, we can only move forward.

Play the IF game. If we can restructure Drob's contract for 08, i believe he'd be a very good DE in a 34 scheme. That would be possible IF we can find someone in the draft that is the more prototypical NT. They are out there, maybe not this year, but I think the front three are going to look very good passed this season.

[PeterNorth09]

At $9M for '08 he might not be the answer past this year. The thing with Robertson is that even guys that like him, like me, think he'd be better off in the 4-3. We had more success with the 3-4 last year than I thought we would and look married to it now.

The way I look at upgrading is that you have to take opportunities that present themselves. If it's tough to upgrade DRob this year, we'll have to upgrade at DE and/or LB and make him the weak link. Same with qb. You make a case we should have picked Ngata or a qb last year, no sense crying over it now, we can only move forward.

I agree with most of what you say. Robertson is a much better fit in the 4-3 but now we're stuck with him at NT in a 3-4. Is he terrible? No. Is he good? We can argue all day about it but one thing we can agree on is that he's here to stay for at least one more year and he's going to play NT.

As for last year's draft passing up Ngata at 4 I could understand since the choice was down to D'Brick or Leinart. However, passing up Watson with both 3rd round picks and our 4th round pick just did not make sense. Eventually one of these years we need to get a true NT.

[SickJetFan]

At $9M for '08 he might not be the answer past this year. The thing with Robertson is that even guys that like him, like me, think he'd be better off in the 4-3. We had more success with the 3-4 last year than I thought we would and look married to it now.

The way I look at upgrading is that you have to take opportunities that present themselves. If it's tough to upgrade DRob this year, we'll have to upgrade at DE and/or LB and make him the weak link. Same with qb. You make a case we should have picked Ngata or a qb last year, no sense crying over it now, we can only move forward.

were his stats that much better in 4-3 - I watched during the 4-3 when JAbe was there and I did not see that he was any better then he was 2nd half of last season...maybe I just did not see what your seeing tho

[JohnnyLV]

I've been thinking about the middle of our D-Line and we may not be in as bad a shape as I thought, especially in light of the fact that we have made absolutely no effort to upgrade it to this point.

There doesn't seem to be any major help coming to the middle of the D-Line via the draft either so lets look at who we have.

There are 2 big questions in 2 key players that need to be answered.

First off let me start by saying I think D-Rob can and will play well at NT but he can't play that position for every defensive snap which leads me to where I'm trying to go with this:

2 guys immediately come to mind:

Sione Pouha and C.J. Mosely.

Both have the size to play NT, Mosely is the smaller of the two 6'2" @ 314.

Pouha obviously needs to stay healthy, he is a guy that I had high hopes for last year, maybe he can prove me right this year.

C.J. Mosely is a guy that has intrigued me since we traded for him, hopefully with a full training camp this off-season under Mangini, he can come into his own.

Thoughts?

Gil Brandt on Sirius has said several times that DROB is one of the best NT in football. Maybe we are not that bad off in the middle as it seems.

[will]

Play the IF game. If we can restructure Drob's contract for 08, i believe he'd be a very good DE in a 34 scheme. That would be possible IF we can find someone in the draft that is the more prototypical NT. They are out there, maybe not this year, but I think the front three are going to look very good passed this season.

The Jets could draft Justin Harrell in the first round this year and he would step in and get snaps behind D-Rob at NT and Coleman at DE, immediately upgrading two positions and giving the Jets protection in case DRob (who I love and think is a very good NT with upside) gets hurt (the biggest problem with D-Rob is not his play but his chronic knee problems) or decides to test his value in FA.

[jetfuel]

Before you start to get really carried away with D-Rob keep in mind we had that last year we had the 24th ranked run defense giving up 130 yards a game while having the easiest schedule in the NFL. Blame Kimo all you want but the lack of a true NT didn't help. I agree that upgrading Kimo will help Robertson but he's still a flaw in our defense and we have a much tougher schedule this year.

Find his replacement for the Jets and then we'll be talking. Otherwise there is no one available right now that can do better than D-Rob and the poor run defense that created those numbers is tainted by the first half of the season. Don't give me Alan Branch either because (a) they're not gonna be able to draft him and ( he is not a NT (he may be big but no one knows that he can play NT ... it's all speculation)

D-Rob was very good in the 2nd half when the D started actually picking up the new 3-4 system. Until the magical NT that doesn't exist miraculously appears we have a damn good player that everyone wants to pile on in Robertson. Maybe I'm alone but I want him to start this year and beyond.

[will]

Find his replacement for the Jets and then we'll be talking. Otherwise there is no one available right now that can do better than D-Rob and the poor run defense that created those numbers is tainted by the first half of the season. Don't give me Alan Branch either because (a) they're not gonna be able to draft him and ( he is not a NT (he may be big but no one knows that he can play NT ... it's all speculation)

D-Rob was very good in the 2nd half when the D started actually picking up the new 3-4 system. Until the magical NT that doesn't exist miraculously appears we have a damn good player that everyone wants to pile on in Robertson. Maybe I'm alone but I want him to start this year and beyond.

I agree with you. Robertson plays with more finesse than a typical NT but he gets into the backfield and disrupts running lanes very nicely, which is his first priority as NT.

[jetfuel]

Play the IF game. If we can restructure Drob's contract for 08, i believe he'd be a very good DE in a 34 scheme. That would be possible IF we can find someone in the draft that is the more prototypical NT. They are out there, maybe not this year, but I think the front three are going to look very good passed this season.

Moving him to DE would be a great idea in this scenario but unfortunately 6'5 340 lb. NT's with power, great instincts, and a non-stop motor don't grow on trees. D-Rob may not have super human strength and size (although 317 lbs. is no small potatoes), but he does have the motor and instincts. Even if the Jets were able to draft Branch, no one knows that he can play NT (just because Kiper or one of those other idiots says he can people assume that he can).

Let's see if they can first get him to restructure the contract. It seems like he is the only one on the team last year that didn't do that. In the meantime, let's embrace the guy because he did a hell of a job down the stretch last year after the D got comfortable in the new system.

Overall I like your IF scenario and I would love to see it work out that way. Who knows, maybe it will. They might even have the NT on the roster right now or acquire him in the draft. With the exception of maybe Wilfork and Casey Hampton most of the big NT's seem to come out of nowhere, are not picked in the 1st round, and do not enter the league as a surefire, cant-miss NT ... they become one. That said, I'd like to see the Jets grab Fresno State's Louis Leonard (6'5 353) in the late rounds and give it a shot. The big knock on him is that he may be a bit slow and he can't play every down ... that's why you sub players in and out and why you build depth. Leonard is a beast and I'd love to see teams try to block him with one O Lineman.

[jetfuel]

I agree with you. Robertson plays with more finesse than a typical NT but he gets into the backfield and disrupts running lanes very nicely, which is his first priority as NT.

The thing that sucks is that people put too much emphasis on the overall team rankings in Offense and Defense for the season. We all know from watching that the Defense was completely different from the second half of the Browns game on (week 8) and the full season numbers do not reflect the improvement they made when they were finally able to grasp the new system. It is not easy to go from a 4-3 to a hybrid 3-4 and change almost the entire coaching staff and expect everything to be perfect. "Soft schedule" or not they gave up the least amount of points in the NFL and 1 rushing TD in the 2nd half last year so for people to throw out these numbers like the D was 24th in the league last year is pointless.

[jetfuel]

I agree with most of what you say. Robertson is a much better fit in the 4-3 but now we're stuck with him at NT in a 3-4. Is he terrible? No. Is he good? We can argue all day about it but one thing we can agree on is that he's here to stay for at least one more year and he's going to play NT.

As for last year's draft passing up Ngata at 4 I could understand since the choice was down to D'Brick or Leinart. However, passing up Watson with both 3rd round picks and our 4th round pick just did not make sense. Eventually one of these years we need to get a true NT.

Gabe Watson, the back-up DT for the Arizona Cardinals? I think I'll take Eric Smith, Leon Washington and Brad Smith over him (the picks they got in the 3rd and 4th rounds last year). I would have taken him over Schlegel but we are talking about a guy who is backing up for the Cardinals not the 2nd coming of Ted Washington.

[PeterNorth09]

Gabe Watson, the back-up DT for the Arizona Cardinals? I think I'll take Eric Smith, Leon Washington and Brad Smith over him (the picks they got in the 3rd and 4th rounds last year). I would have taken him over Schlegel but we are talking about a guy who is backing up for the Cardinals not the 2nd coming of Ted Washington.

Watson actually played pretty well last year and unless the Cards draft Alan Branch he will probably start for them next year. Watson was off the board before Leon Washington. He was still on the board when we picked Anthony Schlegel, Eric Smith and Brad Smith. Regardless of whether you like the two Smith's or not a solid run-stuffing NT is much more dificult to find than a safety or 3rd receiver.

[PeterNorth09]

The Jets could draft Justin Harrell in the first round this year and he would step in and get snaps behind D-Rob at NT and Coleman at DE, immediately upgrading two positions and giving the Jets protection in case DRob (who I love and think is a very good NT with upside) gets hurt (the biggest problem with D-Rob is not his play but his chronic knee problems) or decides to test his value in FA.

Harrell is a good player but he's a DE in the 3-4 scheme at 300 lbs. Otherwise he's just another undersized NT who can't draw a double team.

[jetfuel]

Watson actually played pretty well last year and unless the Cards draft Alan Branch he will probably start for them next year. Watson was off the board before Leon Washington. He was still on the board when we picked Anthony Schlegel, Eric Smith and Brad Smith. Regardless of whether you like the two Smith's or not a solid run-stuffing NT is much more dificult to find than a safety or 3rd receiver.

I'll take the two Smiths over Watson. When he proves he is a solid run-stuffing NT then maybe one day I will eat my words but as of now Watson is a back-up on the Cardinals in a 4-3 Defense that had 12 solo tackles last year.

[will]

Harrell is a good player but he's a DE in the 3-4 scheme at 300 lbs. Otherwise he's just another undersized NT who can't draw a double team.

Harrell's super intensity and skill will overcome whatever he lacks in weight. He can start his Jet career as a backup at all three DL positions and then ultimately start at DE. Anyway, he wouldn't be drafted to play DT.

I realize Harrell is a long shot as there will be safer picks at positions of need for the Jets at #25. Its just a thought.

[Gibbon]

I'll take the two Smiths over Watson. When he proves he is a solid run-stuffing NT then maybe one day I will eat my words but as of now Watson is a back-up on the Cardinals in a 4-3 Defense that had 12 solo tackles last year.

Jetfuel:

You and I dont always agree, but all this crying over losing Gabe Watson seems ridiculous to me too. Every team passed on the guy at least 3 times. He had a reputation for having a slow motor and a bad work ethic. He was rumored to take plays and sometimes whole games off. He was drafted by one of the two worst teams in the league and some people here act like we passed on the greatest potential NT in history.

The facts are that they guy couldnt hold down one of the two starting interior line jobs on one of the wost defenses in the league and that he made 8 of his twelve solo tackles (one of which was on ST) in 3 games. The rest of the games he was either shut out or managed one tackle. Do you honestly think this guy would have been able to beat DRob out of the starting (single) interior Defensive line job? Of course he wouldnt have. He would have been a backup here who saw limited snaps and action and most of the people talking about what a great player we missed would be on here bitching about what a waste he was and how we could have had someone else. The truth is I dont think he would have survived Mangini's training camp and would have been cut.

[Jet Moses]

Maybe we can bring Jason Wiltz back.

[rick34125]

I've been thinking about the middle of our D-Line...Thoughts?

it's big, very big... big enough for mangini to fit through...maybe even together with andy reid.