Herman Edwards, ladies and genlemen

[nyjunc]

You know its amazing that for someone who claims to be "correcting misinformation" when he sees it, you sure have no issues spewing your own...

Parcells: Exactly how did he "cost us Bellicheck"? bellicheck was well aware of the agreement when he came on as DC. parcells coaches, then becomes GM, BB takes over as HC. Parcells retired to STOP BB from leaving us for NE and force him to stay here. BB wanted out. I am no Parcells ass kisser and have many problems with the job he did as GM...but your statement that he "cost us BB" is simply wrong. BB cost us BB.

Namath: One question...how old are you? Did you ever actually see the man play or are you just a stat junky who watches NFL Films clips? Lets look at his career as a whole. His first 5 years were spent in the AFL where only 2 teams per year made the playoffs each year. He came to a team in 1965 that was in the midst of a massive rebuild. In those 5 AFL years he was ROY in 1965, MVP in 1968 and 1969, threw for over 4000 yards in 1967, and won a world champonship. He also was the most feared passer in football and a 5 time pro bowler. After the merger in 1970, the jets were placed in a division with the Colts and Dolphins...two teams that made the next 4 SB appearances between 1970 and 1973. Only 4 teams made the playoffs in those years so for the Jets, each year was a battle for one wild card spot. The TEAM (not just Namath) was also beset by early retirements, injury, and poor drafting. Even so, he lead the NFL in passing in 1972, was comeback player of the year in 1974, and had the jets in playoff contention in both seasons. Yes, his 70, 71, and 73 seasons were marred by injury. By 75 the team was awful and his injuries had taken their toll. Go look at how many of those 47 more ints then tds were thrown in 75 and 76. You also fail to recognize that back when namath played, a 50% completion % and a 1-1 TD/int ratio were very common isnce it wasnt until 1978 that the pass interfernce rules were changed making it illegal for DB to beat the hell out of WRs up and down the field. So rather then take your shallow "look at the stats and post season appearances" stance on namath, I suggest you look a bit beyond the obvious before making your statements about namath being the most overrated player in sports history. That is simply as assineine statement.

Herm: Not to beat this dead horse again because you obviously have a massive hard on for the guy, but answer me this...when has Herm ever built anything? You keep mentioning how HE made the playoffs 4 of 6 years yet neglect to metion he has NEVER taken over a rebuld...always a playoff or near playoff calibar team. And in his 4 appearances he entered as a 6 seed twice, a 5 seed once and a 9-7 diviosn winning 3 seed once. If not for the watering down of the playoffs and the addition of the 6th playoff team, herm doesnt make it in half those 4 years. A how often did he need others to LOSE so he could BACK in? 2002, 2004 and 2006. And in 2001 he needed a miracle FG to sneak in as a 6 seed. And how did his teams get worse? 10-6, 9-7, 6-10, 10-6 (with a CAKE sked) and then 4-12...thats how. As soon as the player base he was handed from Tuna deteriorated, so did Herm's teams since he was unable to build anytuing himself. Then, to top it all off, this unqualified jackass who was LUCKY to be given a HC job wiht NO experience as even a cordinator and who preached truth and honor and respect...lies his ass off and bolts town. Combine that wiht his infuriating coacing style and horrendious game day ability that cost us dearly over his tenure and you wonder why Jets fans hate the guy? Listen, you can lean over and smooch his unqulaiifed ass all you like. You can manipulate his record as Jets HC all you like. But dont you dare question why others here despise the Fraud.

As I said...its pretty hypocritical to be suppossedly chamioning the correction of misinformation and yet spewing so much yourself.

prcells cost us Belichick by being cute tyriong to make Kraft look stupid. he knew BB was talking w/ Kraft about becoming NE's HC and he didn't let BB know he was stepping down untilt the day after the season and only did so to try to screw Kraft.

2 teams per year made he playoffs from '65-'69? Not true, '65-'67 that was the case but not in '68 an '69. They also played in a weak eastern division, he should have had more than 2 PO appearances.

those awards and #s are nice for the firt 5 years but he didn't do it long enough. I have said he was a great talent but injuries robbed him of his abilities.

The excuse is he was placed in a div w/ the Colts and dolphins? The colts were done after '71 so they only had 2 years as a good team after we played in the same div w/ them.

the next excuse is only 4 teams made the playoffs? they had 13 teams and the div was 5 teams so they had a 1 in 5 chance of winning the div and 1 in 5.5 of getting a WC. Today the jets have a 1 in 4 chance of winning the div and a 1 in 6 chance of winning a WC- pretty much the same. What's the next excuse?

He did lead the NFL in passing yards in 1972 and a susual had more INts than TDs and the Jets were only a .500 team.

INts in '75 and '76: 28 in '75 and 16 in '76. What was the excuse in 1967 when he also ha 28 INTs? or '66 when he had 27? the 44 INts in '75 and '76 aren't his worst 2 year stretch. '66 & '67 he had 55.

I know INT rates were higher back then but Len Dawso was a contemporary of Namath, right? he had a +56 TD to INT ratio and that's bettr than -47, correct? and in 21 LESS career attempts Dawso had 66 MORE TDs.

Herm wasn't the GM so it wasn't his job to build the team and Bradway retooled3 times and they made the playoffs each time. herm took over an underachieving bunch that had missed the playoffs 2 straight years and lost 6 of 9 games to end the '00 season and he won 10 games as a rookie. They then had cap prroblems and had to ret-tool the D and he won the div in '02, they then had age on D and re-tooled again and nearly amdethe AFC Title Game in '04.

There's no such thing as backing in, you either win the games you need to win or you don't make th playoffs.

he then left the jets and took over a KC team that hadn't made the playoffs in 2 years and just once in 7 years and what does he do? he takes over a less talented team than KC had the previous 2 years and make the playoffs. Not bad for a guy who can't coach.

We got the better end of the deal when Herm decided to bolt so why the anger towards him? Would you rather he stayed and still be coaching the team today? That is what I don't understand and I do understand people would be amde b/c of te way he left but it's 2 seasons ago now- get over it. Worry about our team not KC. i really believe some of you guys are happier whe KC loses than when the Jets win.

[KSJets]

He wasn't a great player long enough, Jet fans act like he's one of the best of all time and that's just not true.

What was the nw innovative way hewon SB III? was it the way he handed the ball off? we ran the ball 43 times that game including all runs in the 4th qtr. Off the field he was an unquestioned icon and he could have been truly great for a long time but he wasn't. Poor #s, didn't win enough- not a great player.

Since I'm too young, what was it like to watch him play live?

[nyjunc]

OWNED in way less than 1,000 words to boot. whether nyjunc sits down & shut up remains to be seen but

1- can't argue with that

2- I watched namath play & agree 100%

3- it's the offseason for crissakes & hermbashing is good fun for a jets fan worth his salt

I love when people who supoort others arguments come in and say "owned" when I destroyed his weak argument. Read my post then see who "owned" who.

[nyjunc]

now i know you dont know squat about real football,,

its was unheard of then for the super quickrelease and 3 step drop,,

that destroyed the Colts patented pass rush,, they never recovered, ,

Shula said the combo of 3 step and fast release and uncanny audibles wasnt seen till then..

You said the iinnovative way he won the SB, not the innovative way he played the game. It was Joe's quick release that won the SB? Not the 5 turnovers? not the 40 rush attempts? Now I get it:yawn:

[nyjunc]

Why thank you Sir!

I cant stand Namath bashing by stat geeks. If you dont understand Namaths impact and also how different the game was in the 60s and 70s, you have no business commenting on the man...especially if you didnt see him play. Namath was better the great for his first 5 years. Then, as his teams declined badly, so did his stats. But he played in a very different era wiht no free agency (so the team never got appreciably better thanks to awful drafting) and max 4 playoff teams per conf. The 70s were rough on Joe no question but had he played for the Steelers instead of the jets he'd have easily won the 4 SBs Bradshaw did and we'd be talking about him as one of the top 10 of all time.

As to herm, the nyjunc crackpot is in a love fest wiht the guy so I have stopped trying to educate him on the subject. But when he claims to "correct misinformation" and then spews it himself, I will call out that hypocricy and expose him.

I m not a "stat geek" but they keep stats for a reason. I can give a QB a little slack if they win alot but namath had poor #s and didn't win enough. hews gea for a very short periodof time and overall he was NOT a great player.

[SouthernJet]

You said the iinnovative way he won the SB, not the innovative way he played the game. It was Joe's quick release that won the SB? Not the 5 turnovers? not the 40 rush attempts? Now I get it:yawn:

yes, it was his quick release and 3 step drop, ,shula has said many many times ..

took the colts out of game plan,, and they didnt adapt..

they repected him so much they had to overplay , thats why the draw worked all game

[drago]

now i know you dont know squat about real football,,

its was unheard of then for the super quickrelease and 3 step drop,,

that destroyed the Colts patented pass rush,, they never recovered, ,

Shula said the combo of 3 step and fast release and uncanny audibles wasnt seen till then..

I'm in my 20's never saw him play. I never knew that was the game the 3 step drop came out. Had he been doing that all year? or was that just a tactic against the Colts?

[nyjunc]

yes, it was his quick release and 3 step drop, ,shula has said many many times ..

took the colts out of game plan,, and they didnt adapt..

they repected him so much they had to overplay , thats why the draw worked all game

So the 5 turnovers played no role?(including 2 in the EZ) It was all amat's 3step drop and quick release? We ran the ball 43 times for 142 yards, a 3.3 average- it doesn't seem like it was helping our ground game or was 3.3 YPC good in those days?

I understand he wa an innovative guy overall but the facts are he was not great long enough. It pains me to admit that since he is the face of our franchise but I can't lie about it.

[JetCane]

Further, Tuna's "departure" when he stepped down as HC was done with the idea of keeping the Jets stronger & the Pats weaker by preventing Belichick from going there.

It is convoluted to blame Tuna for BB's untimely resignation. Belifart obviously didnt want to work with Parcells being in the FO. That wasnt Parcells' problem. That decision is solely on Belifart.

As for the Herm haters, obsession or not, go for it if it makes you happy.

[SouthernJet]

So the 5 turnovers played no role?(including 2 in the EZ) It was all amat's 3step drop and quick release? We ran the ball 43 times for 142 yards, a 3.3 average- it doesn't seem like it was helping our ground game or was 3.3 YPC good in those days?

I understand he wa an innovative guy overall but the facts are he was not great long enough. It pains me to admit that since he is the face of our franchise but I can't lie about it.

of course it wasnt only thing that won game, , but that game redefined defenses as they now knew they needed more speed,,

Jets also turned ball over several times in game also,, once i think on colts 15

[nyjunc]

of course it wasnt only thing that won game, , but that game redefined defenses as they now knew they needed more speed,,

Jets also turned ball over several times in game also,, once i think on colts 15

The Jets turned it over once.

[MSGold12]

prcells cost us Belichick by being cute tyriong to make Kraft look stupid. he knew BB was talking w/ Kraft about becoming NE's HC and he didn't let BB know he was stepping down untilt the day after the season and only did so to try to screw Kraft.

2 teams per year made he playoffs from '65-'69? Not true, '65-'67 that was the case but not in '68 an '69. They also played in a weak eastern division, he should have had more than 2 PO appearances.

those awards and #s are nice for the firt 5 years but he didn't do it long enough. I have said he was a great talent but injuries robbed him of his abilities.

The excuse is he was placed in a div w/ the Colts and dolphins? The colts were done after '71 so they only had 2 years as a good team after we played in the same div w/ them.

the next excuse is only 4 teams made the playoffs? they had 13 teams and the div was 5 teams so they had a 1 in 5 chance of winning the div and 1 in 5.5 of getting a WC. Today the jets have a 1 in 4 chance of winning the div and a 1 in 6 chance of winning a WC- pretty much the same. What's the next excuse?

He did lead the NFL in passing yards in 1972 and a susual had more INts than TDs and the Jets were only a .500 team.

INts in '75 and '76: 28 in '75 and 16 in '76. What was the excuse in 1967 when he also ha 28 INTs? or '66 when he had 27? the 44 INts in '75 and '76 aren't his worst 2 year stretch. '66 & '67 he had 55.

I know INT rates were higher back then but Len Dawso was a contemporary of Namath, right? he had a +56 TD to INT ratio and that's bettr than -47, correct? and in 21 LESS career attempts Dawso had 66 MORE TDs.

Herm wasn't the GM so it wasn't his job to build the team and Bradway retooled3 times and they made the playoffs each time. herm took over an underachieving bunch that had missed the playoffs 2 straight years and lost 6 of 9 games to end the '00 season and he won 10 games as a rookie. They then had cap prroblems and had to ret-tool the D and he won the div in '02, they then had age on D and re-tooled again and nearly amdethe AFC Title Game in '04.

There's no such thing as backing in, you either win the games you need to win or you don't make th playoffs.

he then left the jets and took over a KC team that hadn't made the playoffs in 2 years and just once in 7 years and what does he do? he takes over a less talented team than KC had the previous 2 years and make the playoffs. Not bad for a guy who can't coach.

We got the better end of the deal when Herm decided to bolt so why the anger towards him? Would you rather he stayed and still be coaching the team today? That is what I don't understand and I do understand people would be amde b/c of te way he left but it's 2 seasons ago now- get over it. Worry about our team not KC. i really believe some of you guys are happier whe KC loses than when the Jets win.

Wow...you are so wrong on so many counts its funny.

Parcells:

You obviously didnt understand the situation. BB was LEAVING! He was trying to bolt whether Tuna stayed coach or not. Kraft offered him the world and he wanted to take it. Tuna steped down to TRY and make him stay. get your facts straight.

Namath:

While I will admit that in 1969 they did add 1 more playoff team, the jets won their division so that point is moot. However, you are incorrect...there were only 2 playoff teams in 1968.

Next, you ask what his excuses were? In 1967 he lost BOTH his starting Rbs for half the season...thus had to air it out every game. In 66 he was in his 2nd year in the NFL...dont many modern QBs like Elway and Aikamn have many more picks then tds in their first years? Did they suck too? And 75 and 76 were by FAR his worst td/int ratio years whihc uis what your intial arguement was. And Dawson was a MUCH different QB then Namath...MUCH ore conservative. Bad compareison.

As to the division issue, the Cllts were a SB team in 1970 and the Dolphins in 71-73. That did not leave the jets much room for a playoff spot. The contended for a wild card in both 72 and 74 when namath was healthy. Not to mention this was a team that played its first 5 games on the road EVERY year thanks to the Mets wihc usually put them at a disadvantage at the start of every season. But why you balme that on namath and not the team is what ruins the validity of your arguement.

As to your only 5 years aruement...can I assume you dont think Gayle Sayers an Earl Campbell are HOFers? How about sandy Koufax?

I ask again...HOW OLD ARE YOU AND DID YOU EVER SEE HIM PLAY? Or are you just spewing stats wiht o undertsanding behind them?

Herm: No sense in even argueing it with you since you seem so far up the guys ass yu can smell intestine. You can come up wiht an many "explanations" or "excuses" as you like but your Man Love for the Fraud has blinded you from reality. Yes, there is such a thuing as backing in. It happens when you lose control of your own destiny but someone else loses out worse the you do. Herm was the benficiary of that 3 times. And Herm bears no responsibility for bulding a team? Bradway handed him guys like Jordan, Hobson, and Cotchery who herm let rot on the bench. Herm changed his "philosophy" (to save his job) like 5 times and each time VBradway had to then provide him wiht new players. And yes, we are better off wihtout Herm, but that doesnt change the fact that he was a bull**** artist who held this team back and then bolted on us. You hahv eno problem wiht that...fine. But who the hell are you to say others cant take issue wiht him?

And one last thing...stop embarassing yourslef by refering to other peoples fact based argements as "weak". You wan to differ in opinion or attemopt to refute..fine. But there is nothing weak about an arguement that is based in fact and logic. Saying stuff like that just makes you look desparate.

Oh and one more time so you finally answer it...how old are you and did yu ever see namath play? please answer the queston.

[MSGold12]

So the 5 turnovers played no role?(including 2 in the EZ) It was all amat's 3step drop and quick release? We ran the ball 43 times for 142 yards, a 3.3 average- it doesn't seem like it was helping our ground game or was 3.3 YPC good in those days?

I understand he wa an innovative guy overall but the facts are he was not great long enough. It pains me to admit that since he is the face of our franchise but I can't lie about it.

You are aware that namath called every play of that game aren't you? You are aware he kept the Colts off balance all day long right? You are aware his gameplaning and play calling gave the jets amassive advantage in time of possession right? You are aware that the Colts were considered the best D in decades that year and Namath lit them up for 200+ passing and kept them confused enough to get 125+ on the ground? You are aware his bomb attampt to matnard in the first Q scared the crap out of Balt for the rest of the game and effected their ability to stack the line or red dog right?

Once again...DID YOU EVER SEE HIM PLAY???? Answer please.

Was Earl Campbell great? How about Gayle Sayers? Sandy Koufax?

[MSGold12]

The Jets turned it over once.

Yes, and it was a big one...inside their own 12 yard line (Sauers fumble). They also lost an on sides kick. He also settled for FGs to eat up ore clock and extend their leads rather then gonig for stat enhancing TD plays.

BL, Namath called a BRILLIANT game that day and only someone who has never seen the game or that namath called all the plays makes statements like you do about that game. namath was the CLEAR MVP that day.

HOW OLD ARE YOU AND DID YOU EVER SEE HIM PLAY??????

[nyjunc]

Wow...you are so wrong on so many counts its funny.

Parcells:

You obviously didnt understand the situation. BB was LEAVING! He was trying to bolt whether Tuna stayed coach or not. Kraft offered him the world and he wanted to take it. Tuna steped down to TRY and make him stay. get your facts straight.

Namath:

While I will admit that in 1969 they did add 1 more playoff team, the jets won their division so that point is moot. However, you are incorrect...there were only 2 playoff teams in 1968.

Next, you ask what his excuses were? In 1967 he lost BOTH his starting Rbs for half the season...thus had to air it out every game. In 66 he was in his 2nd year in the NFL...dont many modern QBs like Elway and Aikamn have many more picks then tds in their first years? Did they suck too? And 75 and 76 were by FAR his worst td/int ratio years whihc uis what your intial arguement was. And Dawson was a MUCH different QB then Namath...MUCH ore conservative. Bad compareison.

As to the division issue, the Cllts were a SB team in 1970 and the Dolphins in 71-73. That did not leave the jets much room for a playoff spot. The contended for a wild card in both 72 and 74 when namath was healthy. Not to mention this was a team that played its first 5 games on the road EVERY year thanks to the Mets wihc usually put them at a disadvantage at the start of every season. But why you balme that on namath and not the team is what ruins the validity of your arguement.

As to your only 5 years aruement...can I assume you dont think Gayle Sayers an Earl Campbell are HOFers? How about sandy Koufax?

I ask again...HOW OLD ARE YOU AND DID YOU EVER SEE HIM PLAY? Or are you just spewing stats wiht o undertsanding behind them?

Herm: No sense in even argueing it with you since you seem so far up the guys ass yu can smell intestine. You can come up wiht an many "explanations" or "excuses" as you like but your Man Love for the Fraud has blinded you from reality. Yes, there is such a thuing as backing in. It happens when you lose control of your own destiny but someone else loses out worse the you do. Herm was the benficiary of that 3 times. And Herm bears no responsibility for bulding a team? Bradway handed him guys like Jordan, Hobson, and Cotchery who herm let rot on the bench. Herm changed his "philosophy" (to save his job) like 5 times and each time VBradway had to then provide him wiht new players. And yes, we are better off wihtout Herm, but that doesnt change the fact that he was a bull**** artist who held this team back and then bolted on us. You hahv eno problem wiht that...fine. But who the hell are you to say others cant take issue wiht him?

And one last thing...stop embarassing yourslef by refering to other peoples fact based argements as "weak". You wan to differ in opinion or attemopt to refute..fine. But there is nothing weak about an arguement that is based in fact and logic. Saying stuff like that just makes you look desparate.

Oh and one more time so you finally answer it...how old are you and did yu ever see namath play? please answer the queston.

Parcells was deceitful w/ BB and he wanted to stick it to Kraft. BB also wouldn't work under BP so BP cost us Belichick.

In '68 Oak played KC in a playoff , oak won and they played he Jets. I don't know if that was b/c they tied for the reg season or not but there were 3 playoff teams in 1968.

in '68 Namath threw an INT every 22 attempts, in '67 every 17 attempts. I udnerstand why the # went up if the running game wasn't as good but why did the pace go up? and in '66 he had all his RBs and threw 27 INts.

dawson played at the same time as Naath , he is NOT a bad comparison. You gusy always say it was the way the game was played back then well why didn't dawson have a big negative TD to INT ratio? and why did dawson throw 66 more TDs despite less attempts?

A new excuse is starting on the road, well that means they ended years w/ alot of home games, right? bal was good for 2 years, the div wasn't very tough other than '70 & '71.

I don't blame the Jets being bad on Namath but great QBs win more often than Joe did. obviously he wasn't great enough to lift his team long term.

Gayle Sayers, Earl Campbell and Sandy Koufax were amazingly dominant players. they also had short careers. Namatah wasn't nearly as dominant as those other guys and he had a long career of mediocrity. If his career ended after '69 then things would be different.

I am not old enough to have seen him play other other than the copy of SB III I have. I have read enough, seen enough and researched enough to know he was more myth than real.

We had control of our own destiny in 2001, 2002 AND '04 when we played our final games and we WON in '02 and '04 and we knew we were in heading into OT in '04. In 2001 we won at a place we hadn't won at since we were the Titans! in '02 we blew out a 12-3 team playing for homefield! Would it have been better to lose at detroit like we di in '97 or lose at bal like we did in 2000? Herm got here and we stopped losing those win and in games.

Cotchery didn't rot on the bench, he played alot in 2005 but we had a 4th string QB playing most of the year along w/ an OL in shambles.

Jordan was playing behind a HOF player who led the league in rushing his last full year and Hobson started in year 2 so who are these guys that rotted on the bench under Herm?

your arguments have been weak, what can I do? lie about it? When someone says owned" based on the info that was provided he obviously has no clue what he is talking aout as I tore apart your argument and in response I get nothing but excuses.

[nyjunc]

Yes, and it was a big one...inside their own 12 yard line (Sauers fumble). They also lost an on sides kick. He also settled for FGs to eat up ore clock and extend their leads rather then gonig for stat enhancing TD plays.

BL, Namath called a BRILLIANT game that day and only someone who has never seen the game or that namath called all the plays makes statements like you do about that game. namath was the CLEAR MVP that day.

HOW OLD ARE YOU AND DID YOU EVER SEE HIM PLAY??????

and didn't we get the ball right back w/ a TO? we picked off Bal twice in the EZ.

Now it's Namath calling a brilliant game, a "brilliant gam" that e onyl scored 16 points and needed 5 Tos to do so, a brilliant game / just 206 passing yards and 3.3 YPC on the ground. yep it was all Joe, whu did our other players even show up that day?

[nyjunc]

You are aware that namath called every play of that game aren't you? You are aware he kept the Colts off balance all day long right? You are aware his gameplaning and play calling gave the jets amassive advantage in time of possession right? You are aware that the Colts were considered the best D in decades that year and Namath lit them up for 200+ passing and kept them confused enough to get 125+ on the ground? You are aware his bomb attampt to matnard in the first Q scared the crap out of Balt for the rest of the game and effected their ability to stack the line or red dog right?

Once again...DID YOU EVER SEE HIM PLAY???? Answer please.

Was Earl Campbell great? How about Gayle Sayers? Sandy Koufax?

yes I am aware he called his own plays so why does he get so much cedit for that yet when he has seasons of 27 and 28 INts he doesn't get blame for his play calling?

Again Campbell, Sayers, Koufax were dominating players and didn't have a bad back half of their careers unlike Joe.

[JetCane]

Namath called all the plays...Namath was the CLEAR MVP that day.

Not only did he call his own plays, but he called most of them from the LOS that day after surveying the Colts' defense. He was a student of the game when he wasnt out carousing and drinking Johnny Walker.

a "brilliant gam" that e onyl scored 16 points and needed 5 Tos to do so

That Colts D gave up only 148 pts in 16 games thru the playoffs against NFL teams. They were extremely formidable. They had about 25 Ints that season iirc.

Most of the key turnovers came deep in the Jets end of the field and ended key Colts drives. Only one or so of the TOs came in Colts territory, resulting in a short field for the jets.

[MSGold12]

Parcells was deceitful w/ BB and he wanted to stick it to Kraft. BB also wouldn't work under BP so BP cost us Belichick.

In '68 Oak played KC in a playoff , oak won and they played he Jets. I don't know if that was b/c they tied for the reg season or not but there were 3 playoff teams in 1968.

in '68 Namath threw an INT every 22 attempts, in '67 every 17 attempts. I udnerstand why the # went up if the running game wasn't as good but why did the pace go up? and in '66 he had all his RBs and threw 27 INts.

dawson played at the same time as Naath , he is NOT a bad comparison. You gusy always say it was the way the game was played back then well why didn't dawson have a big negative TD to INT ratio? and why did dawson throw 66 more TDs despite less attempts?

A new excuse is starting on the road, well that means they ended years w/ alot of home games, right? bal was good for 2 years, the div wasn't very tough other than '70 & '71.

I don't blame the Jets being bad on Namath but great QBs win more often than Joe did. obviously he wasn't great enough to lift his team long term.

Gayle Sayers, Earl Campbell and Sandy Koufax were amazingly dominant players. they also had short careers. Namatah wasn't nearly as dominant as those other guys and he had a long career of mediocrity. If his career ended after '69 then things would be different.

I am not old enough to have seen him play other other than the copy of SB III I have. I have read enough, seen enough and researched enough to know he was more myth than real.

We had control of our own destiny in 2001, 2002 AND '04 when we played our final games and we WON in '02 and '04 and we knew we were in heading into OT in '04. In 2001 we won at a place we hadn't won at since we were the Titans! in '02 we blew out a 12-3 team playing for homefield! Would it have been better to lose at detroit like we di in '97 or lose at bal like we did in 2000? Herm got here and we stopped losing those win and in games.

Cotchery didn't rot on the bench, he played alot in 2005 but we had a 4th string QB playing most of the year along w/ an OL in shambles.

Jordan was playing behind a HOF player who led the league in rushing his last full year and Hobson started in year 2 so who are these guys that rotted on the bench under Herm?

your arguments have been weak, what can I do? lie about it? When someone says owned" based on the info that was provided he obviously has no clue what he is talking aout as I tore apart your argument and in response I get nothing but excuses.

How was Parcells decitful wiht BB? BB was apart of the whoe charade that brught Tuna here in the firts place. He knew he was the heri apparant when Parclels moved up stairs. There wa snohting decitful excet BBs ego deciding he didnt want to work iun Parcells shadow anymore and wanted the keys to the castle Kraft as offering.

In 68, the Raiders and KC tied...thus the extra game.

In 66 he was a freaking 2nd year pro! As said, go look at Elways 2dn year, Bradshaw's, Aikamn's, etc. In 67he had no runingbacks, in 68 he threw a lot less. Namath took a lot of chances as a QB...thus he htrew a lot of picks. Bradshaw has more picks then TDs also, is he ot a HOFer? And namath had somehitg like a 21/45 td/int ratio in his last 2 years wiht the jets whihc really hurt his career stats.

And dawson is a horrible comparison and since yu never saw him play either you have no leg to stand on. dawson was a short passer who played in a much more controlled offense then namath did.

And if you dont think sartomg every season on the road for the first 5 game sisnt a negative and doesnt have abearing ona team you know nhting about football. Were you aware we only had 6 homes games in 1973 becauseof the WS? Or are you too young to remmeber that either?

You obviuoly are also too young to remmeber Earl campbells last 3 or 4 years of mediocrity in NO . Or Koufax's early years of mediocirty in Brooklyn. Or Sayers years of mediocrity after his knee injury. Thats OK...now that I knw you never saw any of them pley either it explains your youthful mistakes.

BL...you never saw the man play. I dont care how many books you think you ahve read or NFL films clips you have watched. For you to mkake the statements youve made about namat after NEVER SEEING HIM PLAY is simply laughable. Thats OK junior, if we ever have a dioscussion about Peyton manning you can jump right in.

And as to herm, if you are actually going to argue that he used Cotchery, jordan and Hbsion well then you simply damage your youthful credibiity even more. herm record of developing young players was luaghable.

And for the record mr reading Comp...did I say I owned you? Nope, that was someone elses observation. But I guess a litle boy like you has to feel strong when being bitch slapped so you'll just make false claims about "tearing apart arguements" even when your refutations are factually false. Thats OK...I understand Junior.

Seriuosly, ow old are you? Because Id like to know if I can start rippig you up on your assessments of Tuna. Did you watch football in thelate 90s pee wee? or was your bed time before the 4pm games ended?

But not to worry, any time you feel the need to be educated on football, I'll be happy to oblige Lil hermy Lover.

[MSGold12]

yes I am aware he called his own plays so why does he get so much cedit for that yet when he has seasons of 27 and 28 INts he doesn't get blame for his play calling?

Again Campbell, Sayers, Koufax were dominating players and didn't have a bad back half of their careers unlike Joe.

You never saw the man play....thats a little tid bit you might have shared before making such defintive statements about him.

So can I assume you never saw campbell, Sayers or Koufax either pee wee?

As to his picks, yes he takes blame for them...but you as a stat nerd dont bother to look at the reasons WHY he had the number of picks he had. Thats OK, little folk like you often make that mistake. Its your Fantasy Football mentlaity not to tihnk outside the stat sheet.

[MSGold12]

and didn't we get the ball right back w/ a TO? we picked off Bal twice in the EZ.

Now it's Namath calling a brilliant game, a "brilliant gam" that e onyl scored 16 points and needed 5 Tos to do so, a brilliant game / just 206 passing yards and 3.3 YPC on the ground. yep it was all Joe, whu did our other players even show up that day?

Never saw him play did ya little guy?

Namath;s play calling had the Colts off balance on D all day. Namath setlted for FGs i many situations to keep the clocok running and shorten the game. Its wasnt ALL Joe...no one has said that. But he was the catlyst that day. he controlled the game, kept the Colt O off the field and kept their D off balance.

Get a clue Junior...

never even saw him play...LOL!!!!

[Bugg]

You are aware that namath called every play of that game aren't you? You are aware he kept the Colts off balance all day long right? You are aware his gameplaning and play calling gave the jets amassive advantage in time of possession right? You are aware that the Colts were considered the best D in decades that year and Namath lit them up for 200+ passing and kept them confused enough to get 125+ on the ground? You are aware his bomb attampt to matnard in the first Q scared the crap out of Balt for the rest of the game and effected their ability to stack the line or red dog right?

Once again...DID YOU EVER SEE HIM PLAY???? Answer please.

Was Earl Campbell great? How about Gayle Sayers? Sandy Koufax?

I'm too young to have seen Namath much in his prime, excepting that Jets/Colts game when Unitas and Namath went off. I did read the Kriegel book, and watch the NFL Network "America's Game" the III championship team. Simply he was an all-time great. The game was different then. The one fair criticism is he didn't take care of himself, but neither did many guys back then, like Mantle.

One thing that pisses me off is know nothings telling me based on stats rather than their eyes how Earl Campbell wasn't as good as Eric Dickerson or Curtis Martin based on stats without having seen how doinant the guy was. The same is likley true of Namath. without looking, John Abraham probably has more sacks in his career than Joe Klecko, and John Abraham isn't in Klecko's class on his best day.

[BP]

The obsession continues...

Herm Haters:

Herm-Hater Haters:

POTW nom!

[Jet Moses]

I am not old enough to have seen him play other other than the copy of SB III I have. I have read enough, seen enough and researched enough to know he was more myth than real.

[Jet Moses]

I love when people who supoort others arguments come in and say "owned" when I destroyed his weak argument. Read my post then see who "owned" who.

[jetophile]

and didn't we get the ball right back w/ a TO? we picked off Bal twice in the EZ.

Now it's Namath calling a brilliant game, a "brilliant gam" that e onyl scored 16 points and needed 5 Tos to do so, a brilliant game / just 206 passing yards and 3.3 YPC on the ground. yep it was all Joe, whu did our other players even show up that day?

OK, I just had to chime in after perusing, and essentially all that's left to me is to screech and throw peanuts in true monkey fashion. And I do know one can't 'argue' or 'debate' with those who defy reason, so I won't.

You are what is known as the quintessential self-hating Jets fan. I mean that with love, but can't you ACCEPT the victory?! Why must we dissect why we didn't LOSE?! We WON Superbowl III, yo, but sucked and didn't really deserve to win?! OK, snorkle, snort, whatever. Snell fell into the end zone. Weeb was confused. Everyone else on the team was a punk (AMEN, I dig it). Namath was zip as to race relations in the lockerroom at an incendiary time and John Sample was voiceless. Basically, our vagabonds stood for nothing in the annals of football history in one form or another. Not that you said that verbatim, but if I could string your posts together over time in all places, do you SEE Namath's importance? It's always the same from you. I'm just this short of tearing out my eyebrows and beating my breast in mourning over your lack to get it.

Namath had bad knees, a great arm, threw in a wind tunnel, and although I defy any other QB of the time to fare nearly as well as to stats at the end of a Shea Day in nasty weather, he contributed to the game of football by default just because? Landry, who had a stick up his butt, didn't have the gumption to take him. Well, wah for him.

Can't you just suck it up that we won?! Newsflash: Namath was a scrambling QB before his first injury in college and milked a whole lot of honey out of that arm. And, he could read defenses like nobody's business. He got punished physically on purpose. Listen, the sooner you realize that N is for Namath and not Nancy, the happier you'll be.

Classic Namath jump pass. On a bad knee, junc.

[DireJet38]

"Character is what you do when NO ONE is lookin'" -- Herman Edwards

[Jet Moses]

Joe Namath wasn't "just" a great football player, he's an American Icon; a national treasure.

How anyone- let alone a Jets fan- could trash the guy is beyond me. What makes it even more disturbing, is the guy trashing Joe Namath, thinks Herman Edwards was valid and important in the great scheme of things.

At least with Raisenbran088, we know the deal. He's a hit and run artist; he's a coward.

But nyjunc suffers from cognitive dissonance.

[nyjunc]

How was Parcells decitful wiht BB? BB was apart of the whoe charade that brught Tuna here in the firts place. He knew he was the heri apparant when Parclels moved up stairs. There wa snohting decitful excet BBs ego deciding he didnt want to work iun Parcells shadow anymore and wanted the keys to the castle Kraft as offering.

In 68, the Raiders and KC tied...thus the extra game.

In 66 he was a freaking 2nd year pro! As said, go look at Elways 2dn year, Bradshaw's, Aikamn's, etc. In 67he had no runingbacks, in 68 he threw a lot less. Namath took a lot of chances as a QB...thus he htrew a lot of picks. Bradshaw has more picks then TDs also, is he ot a HOFer? And namath had somehitg like a 21/45 td/int ratio in his last 2 years wiht the jets whihc really hurt his career stats.

And dawson is a horrible comparison and since yu never saw him play either you have no leg to stand on. dawson was a short passer who played in a much more controlled offense then namath did.

And if you dont think sartomg every season on the road for the first 5 game sisnt a negative and doesnt have abearing ona team you know nhting about football. Were you aware we only had 6 homes games in 1973 becauseof the WS? Or are you too young to remmeber that either?

You obviuoly are also too young to remmeber Earl campbells last 3 or 4 years of mediocrity in NO . Or Koufax's early years of mediocirty in Brooklyn. Or Sayers years of mediocrity after his knee injury. Thats OK...now that I knw you never saw any of them pley either it explains your youthful mistakes.

BL...you never saw the man play. I dont care how many books you think you ahve read or NFL films clips you have watched. For you to mkake the statements youve made about namat after NEVER SEEING HIM PLAY is simply laughable. Thats OK junior, if we ever have a dioscussion about Peyton manning you can jump right in.

And as to herm, if you are actually going to argue that he used Cotchery, jordan and Hbsion well then you simply damage your youthful credibiity even more. herm record of developing young players was luaghable.

And for the record mr reading Comp...did I say I owned you? Nope, that was someone elses observation. But I guess a litle boy like you has to feel strong when being bitch slapped so you'll just make false claims about "tearing apart arguements" even when your refutations are factually false. Thats OK...I understand Junior.

Seriuosly, ow old are you? Because Id like to know if I can start rippig you up on your assessments of Tuna. Did you watch football in thelate 90s pee wee? or was your bed time before the 4pm games ended?

But not to worry, any time you feel the need to be educated on football, I'll be happy to oblige Lil hermy Lover.

Parcells KNEW he was leaving aftre the '99 season, he didn't let any of his asst's know and he knew BB was talking w/ Kraft and he tried to stick it to Kraft using Belichick.

Now the excuse for '66 was it was his 2nd year. So we have tough divison, injuries, 2nd year, not enough home games to start the year- what's the next excuse?

Elway's 2nd year he led his team to a 13-3 record, had 18 TDs and 15 INTs.

Aikman's 2nd year he led Dal to a 7-9 record a year after being 1-15. He had 18 INts.

Bradshaw had 22 INTs, still not 27.

Dawson's yards per attempt was 7.7, Namatah 7.4. dawson had mroe yards despite less attempts.

I wasn't alive in '73 and I am sure starting on the road didn't help but it seems to me ending the year w/ alot of home games would be an dvantage. In '68 we started the season w/ 3 straight road games- did that hurt us? In '69 we started w/ 5 straight road games and wont he div, did it hurt us then? if we were successful twice then why couldn't we be successful more?

Earl was completely dominant when healthy, he had a couple o abdyars due to injuries where he barely played but he finished up averaging 4.1 YPC in his last year.

Koufax sruggled as a young player w/ his control but then he got it together he was dominant an one of th best postseason pitchers of all time. The man has a .95 ERA in the WS an led his team to 3 Championships. That's a little different than Namath, right?

I didn't have to see him play, I didn't see Babe Ruth play and know he was every bit as good as his legend. I have seen enough clips, read enough, researched enough and I have seen SB III. I know he was a great talent that was held bak by injuries and did not have a great career. I know he helped to revolutionize the game and was more important off the field than on it but on the field he had a medicore career overallw/ some great moments sprinkled in.

Cotch played alot on 2005, Jordan played alot as a backup. Do I think Jordan should have been used mroe? yes I do BUT it's hard to argue whe you have a HOF RB still producing in front of him.

Hobson was a STARTER IN HIS 2ND SEASON.

Herm's record of using young players is laughable? Moss starte in his 2nd full year, Hobson in his 2nd year, Lamont played alot, Robertson started day 1, Vilma started early in the season(and was splitting time w/ Cowart even if Cowart didn't get hurt), Rhodes started as a rookie, Coleman started as a rookie, Mckenzie startd in year 2, Moore started in his 2nd season, Adrian Jones started in his 2nd season, Jn McGraw was a starter in year 2, Strait was our nickel back as a rookie, ...

Don't believe everything you read on a message board, he and his staff did a nice job rbining along young players. Some players were ready to play right away, others weren't. Just b/c you are a high pick doesn't mean you have to start day 1.

I didn't say you said you owned me, I was talking to the other person when I responded. you got mad b/c I called your weak arguments weak.

Go aheadand "rip me", let's see it. if it's nything like thesearguments you have presented it should be hilarious.

[nyjunc]

You never saw the man play....thats a little tid bit you might have shared before making such defintive statements about him.

So can I assume you never saw campbell, Sayers or Koufax either pee wee?

As to his picks, yes he takes blame for them...but you as a stat nerd dont bother to look at the reasons WHY he had the number of picks he had. Thats OK, little folk like you often make that mistake. Its your Fantasy Football mentlaity not to tihnk outside the stat sheet.

I didn't need to see them play, i know thoe other players were legitimately great players for most of their careers while Joe was not.

I know you have more excuses as to why he threw so many picks. No home games in Septmber, injuries, year 2, blah, blah, blah. he gets allt he credit when we win and he plays well but when we lose and he throws bad picks he had reasons for them just like we couldn't win starting the season on the road yet we did so in '68 and '69.

[nyjunc]

Never saw him play did ya little guy?

Namath;s play calling had the Colts off balance on D all day. Namath setlted for FGs i many situations to keep the clocok running and shorten the game. Its wasnt ALL Joe...no one has said that. But he was the catlyst that day. he controlled the game, kept the Colt O off the field and kept their D off balance.

Get a clue Junior...

never even saw him play...LOL!!!!

ooooohh little guy- that's a good one! I seem to be getting under your skin, instead of calling names read what I write and learn something so you can have an intelligent football discussion in the future.

[nyjunc]

OK, I just had to chime in after perusing, and essentially all that's left to me is to screech and throw peanuts in true monkey fashion. And I do know one can't 'argue' or 'debate' with those who defy reason, so I won't.

You are what is known as the quintessential self-hating Jets fan. I mean that with love, but can't you ACCEPT the victory?! Why must we dissect why we didn't LOSE?! We WON Superbowl III, yo, but sucked and didn't really deserve to win?! OK, snorkle, snort, whatever. Snell fell into the end zone. Weeb was confused. Everyone else on the team was a punk (AMEN, I dig it). Namath was zip as to race relations in the lockerroom at an incendiary time and John Sample was voiceless. Basically, our vagabonds stood for nothing in the annals of football history in one form or another. Not that you said that verbatim, but if I could string your posts together over time in all places, do you SEE Namath's importance? It's always the same from you. I'm just this short of tearing out my eyebrows and beating my breast in mourning over your lack to get it.

Namath had bad knees, a great arm, threw in a wind tunnel, and although I defy any other QB of the time to fare nearly as well as to stats at the end of a Shea Day in nasty weather, he contributed to the game of football by default just because? Landry, who had a stick up his butt, didn't have the gumption to take him. Well, wah for him.

Can't you just suck it up that we won?! Newsflash: Namath was a scrambling QB before his first injury in college and milked a whole lot of honey out of that arm. And, he could read defenses like nobody's business. He got punished physically on purpose. Listen, the sooner you realize that N is for Namath and not Nancy, the happier you'll be.

Classic Namath jump pass. On a bad knee, junc.

When did I bash the Jes or Namath for winning the SB?

When did I question Namath's importance? Maybe you should read my posts before responding? I have never questioned Joe's importance to the game or to the Jets, I have questioned his overall body of work which was not great. I have acknowledged that was MOSTLY due to injuries but durability counts and he wsn't durable enough to have a great CAREER.

Again, when did I ever question Joe's arm or other physical gifts? Are you sure you have been reading my posts?

I am not sure what that picture proves?

[nyjunc]

Joe Namath wasn't "just" a great football player, he's an American Icon; a national treasure.

How anyone- let alone a Jets fan- could trash the guy is beyond me. What makes it even more disturbing, is the guy trashing Joe Namath, thinks Herman Edwards was valid and important in the great scheme of things.

At least with Raisenbran088, we know the deal. He's a hit and run artist; he's a coward.

But nyjunc suffers from cognitive dissonance.

he was a great football player who didn't have a great career and he was absolutely an American icon.

I have not "trashed" Namath I have simply stated facts that he did not have a great career and he is an overrated player.

I am objective, I tell it like it is. I can't help that. It does pain me to talk the truth on Namath b/c he is the face of the franchise and did lead us to our only SB win but I cannot just go along w/ the myth. As a kid I was told how great Joe was and I believed the hype but as I got older and researched him and saw clips and games and everything else i realized he wasn't as good as his legend suggested. i also have realized it was mostly b/c he wasn't healthy and that is typical Jets luck. I think IF HEALTHY he would have been everything you guys think he was and more but he wasn't. I think IF HEALTHY we woud have maybe won another SB or at least been to the playoffs a few more times but he wasn't.

[afosomf]

how a thread about the turd being changed to JWN is beyond me.

the best description of herm is the following

When you take a crap and everything falls but 1 little piece no matter

how hard you squeeze your anus. You end up resorting to wiping this little

turd and it takes a ton of tissue paper to clean your arse. In the end your

underwear still ends of with skid marks!!!!!!!!!

[jetophile]

When did I bash the Jes or Namath for winning the SB?

When did I question Namath's importance? Maybe you should read my posts before responding? I have never questioned Joe's importance to the game or to the Jets, I have questioned his overall body of work which was not great. I have acknowledged that was MOSTLY due to injuries but durability counts and he wsn't durable enough to have a great CAREER.

Again, when did I ever question Joe's arm or other physical gifts? Are you sure you have been reading my posts?

I am not sure what that picture proves?

Sigh...