3-4 4-3 DENNIS BYRD QUOTE

[JETSFAN5180]

Under Coach Joe Walton Dennis Byrd said.

The problem as I saw it,was we couldnt do our job with the defense Joe was using.He had a 3-4 set in place,a defense that calls for size and strength,not speed and athleticism.In a 3-4,youve got a big nose guard and two great big tackles who basically sit in there fighting and throwing aside guys in front of them so the linebackers can come in and make the tackles.

Sounds like Eric Mangini and Joe Walton are alike.

[BroadwayJoe12]

Under Coach Joe Walton Dennis Byrd said.

The problem as I saw it,was we couldnt do our job with the defense Joe was using.He had a 3-4 set in place,a defense that calls for size and strength,not speed and athleticism.In a 3-4,youve got a big nose guard and two great big tackles who basically sit in there fighting and throwing aside guys in front of them so the linebackers can come in and make the tackles.

Sounds like Eric Mangini and Joe Walton are alike.

When Mangini came in we didn't have an elite 43 defense in place, if we had a perenial top 5 defense than yes he would have been foolish, but the change he is making is going to be for the best.

[JETSFAN5180]

When Mangini came in we didn't have an elite 43 defense in place, if we had a perenial top 5 defense than yes he would have been foolish, but the change he is making is going to be for the best.

I disagree with the current players on the roster. Bring in some bonafide 3-4 players and I might agree. i call it as I see it.We were 4-12 with reason.

[nyjunc]

When Mangini came in we didn't have an elite 43 defense in place, if we had a perenial top 5 defense than yes he would have been foolish, but the change he is making is going to be for the best.

We were a year removed from being a legit top 5 defense and our best players on D(Vilma, Dewayne and Ellis) were all 4-3 players. It was a mistake to bring in the 3-4.

[Greenseed3]

I disagree with the current players on the roster. Bring in some bonafide 3-4 players and I might agree. i call it as I see it.We were 4-12 with reason.

The 4-12 season in '05? or the 4-12 season of '07?

[JETSFAN5180]

The 4-12 season in '05? or the 4-12 season of '07?

2007 4-12.

[Greenseed3]

Either way, we were two years away from serious contention when EM arrived. The 10-6 was a fluke; but a marked improvement over the 4-12 of '05.

I wouldn't blame last years regression (where we started two QBs) solely on the defensive scheme. There were obviously other factors involved.

Shivy OL-play ruined the '05 season, and shivy OL-play ruined the '07 season (coincidince, both 4-12)

[BroadwayJoe12]

We were a year removed from being a legit top 5 defense and our best players on D(Vilma, Dewayne and Ellis) were all 4-3 players. It was a mistake to bring in the 3-4.

I said perenial..the one year in 2005 wasn't an accurate portrayal of how good our defense was, atleast in my eyes. I personally like the 34 better and beleive this year is going to be a significant improvement. Regardless, we aren't going back to the 43 and we should atleast wait to see what mangini does in his 3rd year after bringing in some more of his players.

[Boozer76]

We had a crappy 4-3 D with busts and overrated players under Herm for 5 years. Although we still have a crappy 3-4 D today, at least you can see the plan falling into place to improve it. It's mind boggling to think people feel Mangini dismantled some kind of dominant defense. We sucked. Vilma was the only decent player and quite frankle he gets alot of credit for alot of tackles without considering how far behind th line they were. One thing I have NEVER seen Vilma do is get his nose into the backfield regularly vs the run or the pass.

[nyjunc]

We had a crappy 4-3 D with busts and overrated players under Herm for 5 years. Although we still have a crappy 3-4 D today, at least you can see the plan falling into place to improve it. It's mind boggling to think people feel Mangini dismantled some kind of dominant defense. We sucked. Vilma was the only decent player and quite frankle he gets alot of credit for alot of tackles without considering how far behind th line they were. One thing I have NEVER seen Vilma do is get his nose into the backfield regularly vs the run or the pass.

In 2004 the Jets D was a legit top 5. In '01 and '02 the D's got drastically better in the 2nd half of those seasons and our D's were alot better than the rankings showed. '03(age) and '05(injuries) were the only poor defensive years we had under Herm and co and Mangini inherited a D w/ alot of young talent that mostly suited to the 4-3 and we basically have to throw those guys away now.

[Sperm Edwards]

In 2004 the Jets D was a legit top 5. In '01 and '02 the D's got drastically better in the 2nd half of those seasons and our D's were alot better than the rankings showed. '03(age) and '05(injuries) were the only poor defensive years we had under Herm and co and Mangini inherited a D w/ alot of young talent that mostly suited to the 4-3 and we basically have to throw those guys away now.

Herm is awful. Herm was awful. Herm is running a second franchise into the ground.

Mangini not impressing the past season - or maybe, like Herm, being in over his head - doesn't change that.

The notion that Mangini inherited a top-5 defense, but for the litany of excuses you allow for Herm (and only Herm), is ludicrous. Herm's defenses were hideous until Donnie came here, so spare me the "Herm and co" bullsh*t. When I think of the "and co" with Herm, I think of Dick Curl not Donnie Henderson.

This team was $20M+ over the cap with a broken-down RB making zillions; a useless 2nd-string RB making millions; a broken-down QB making 4x that of the broken-down RB; a #2 QB also coming off season-ending injury; a DE who performs like he stopped playing football after getting his $15M bonus; another DE not under contract & who they couldn't afford; a complaining, loudmouth center past his prime making millions; a left tackle with a chronically bad back since '04 ended; no right tackle since '04; no nose tackle since '04; a CB due an $11M roster bonus meaning he's gone also; another starting CB had retired after '04, leaving a third one with (at best) questionable cover skills; and at least one member of the offense who was so sick of their starting QB that he mouthed off to a reporter referring to him as "like an egg back there" to describe his fragility & injury history -- one can only imagine what some said to each other with NO microphones around. They were fat, lazy, out of shape, undisciplined, and in the end disgruntled because of the manner in which that piece of sh*t abandoned them & clearly negotiated with another team while still their coach. An end to the 2005 season after which, their OC and DC also wanted out if they weren't each made the HC. The franchise was an utter joke. There was depleted talent, overrated talent, no direction or future plan in place, and they were way over the salary cap.

And you are trying to spin it as though this was some awesome, complete, top-5 defense (if not an awesome team, since an offense successfully keeping the ball out of the other team's hands clearly contributes as well) - and that it was this wonderful situation just sitting here waiting for any fool to take over and effortlessly make it top-5.

Get some help.

[shawn306]

It hasn't mattered if you ran a 3-4 or a 4-3 the last 7 or 8 years. Except for 2004 the Jets D has always started sh!tty and then picked up the pace as the season wore on.

Why that is ? I don't know.

Walton went to a 3-4 when he brought in Bud Carson to be his Defensive Cooridinator I think it was 85. When they went through that transistion they still had Klecko, Gastineau, Lyons, Mehl who were the core of that defense. They not only made the transition. They thrived in it because Carson was never afraid to send pressure.

Now I don't remember exactly if the Jets switched to a 4-3 in 89 when Carson left and Ralph Hawkins became the Defensive Coordinator and turned a hard hitting agressive defense into a sit back, read and react but when Pete Carroll took over in 90 they became a 4-3 that was aggressive.

[nyjunc]

Herm is awful. Herm was awful. Herm is running a second franchise into the ground.

Mangini not impressing the past season - or maybe, like Herm, being in over his head - doesn't change that.

The notion that Mangini inherited a top-5 defense, but for the litany of excuses you allow for Herm (and only Herm), is ludicrous. Herm's defenses were hideous until Donnie came here, so spare me the "Herm and co" bullsh*t. When I think of the "and co" with Herm, I think of Dick Curl not Donnie Henderson.

This team was $20M+ over the cap with a broken-down RB making zillions; a useless 2nd-string RB making millions; a broken-down QB making 4x that of the broken-down RB; a #2 QB also coming off season-ending injury; a DE who performs like he stopped playing football after getting his $15M bonus; another DE not under contract & who they couldn't afford; a complaining, loudmouth center past his prime making millions; a left tackle with a chronically bad back since '04 ended; no right tackle since '04; no nose tackle since '04; a CB due an $11M roster bonus meaning he's gone also; another starting CB had retired after '04, leaving a third one with (at best) questionable cover skills; and at least one member of the offense who was so sick of their starting QB that he mouthed off to a reporter referring to him as "like an egg back there" to describe his fragility & injury history -- one can only imagine what some said to each other with NO microphones around. They were fat, lazy, out of shape, undisciplined, and in the end disgruntled because of the manner in which that piece of sh*t abandoned them & clearly negotiated with another team while still their coach. An end to the 2005 season after which, their OC and DC also wanted out if they weren't each made the HC. The franchise was an utter joke. There was depleted talent, overrated talent, no direction or future plan in place, and they were way over the salary cap.

And you are trying to spin it as though this was some awesome, complete, top-5 defense (if not an awesome team, since an offense successfully keeping the ball out of the other team's hands clearly contributes as well) - and that it was this wonderful situation just sitting here waiting for any fool to take over and effortlessly make it top-5.

Get some help.

This is NOT about Herm, Herm wasn't running our defenses but you are so obsessed that is all you think about and how is he running KC into the ground? does he make the personnel decisions? is he the one responsible for keeping and acquiring talent? No.

As far as our D, it was a LEGIT top 5 D in 2004. It nearly carried us into the AFC Championship Game. In '05 Barton was hurt(he was our best defensive player in '04) and Ellis and Robertson were playing hurt then missed the final qtr of the season. We had most of the same talent in place when Mangini took over including 3 relatively young players(Vilma, Robertson and Ellis) that were our 3 best defensive players to build around and he made all 3 basically useless.

this had nothing to do w/ Herm , don't let your Herm obsession ruin another thread. we know your irrational feelings about the man.

When were we $20 mil over the cap?

[Sperm Edwards]

This is NOT about Herm, Herm wasn't running our defenses but you are so obsessed that is all you think about and how is he running KC into the ground? does he make the personnel decisions? is he the one responsible for keeping and acquiring talent? No.

As far as our D, it was a LEGIT top 5 D in 2004. It nearly carried us into the AFC Championship Game. In '05 Barton was hurt(he was our best defensive player in '04) and Ellis and Robertson were playing hurt then missed the final qtr of the season. We had most of the same talent in place when Mangini took over including 3 relatively young players(Vilma, Robertson and Ellis) that were our 3 best defensive players to build around and he made all 3 basically useless.

this had nothing to do w/ Herm , don't let your Herm obsession ruin another thread. we know your irrational feelings about the man.

When were we $20 mil over the cap?

You referred to it as "under Herm and co" - you could have chosen to say "under Ted Cotrell and Donnie Henderson" but did not.

Believe what you want. That Ellis, DRob, and Vilma were these awesome, awesome players & it was only the presence of Mangini (who I'm only lukewarm at best about after '07) that ruined these otherwise incredible superstars.

We were $20M over the cap after the 2005 season. Each team had to get under by a certain deadline in March (I don't by the literal start of the season March 2nd-ish, but not far after that).

That is why we released Ty Law, Jason Fabini, and were forced to pay Pennington a $3M roster bonus while his arm was still in a sling, among other moves.

The franchise ending up around top-5 by the end of 2004 does not mean the person who steps in for the 2006 season is inheriting a top-5 defense.

[nyjunc]

You referred to it as "under Herm and co" - you could have chosen to say "under Ted Cotrell and Donnie Henderson" but did not.

Believe what you want. That Ellis, DRob, and Vilma were these awesome, awesome players & it was only the presence of Mangini (who I'm only lukewarm at best about after '07) that ruined these otherwise incredible superstars.

We were $20M over the cap after the 2005 season. Each team had to get under by a certain deadline in March (I don't by the literal start of the season March 2nd-ish, but not far after that).

That is why we released Ty Law, Jason Fabini, and were forced to pay Pennington a $3M roster bonus while his arm was still in a sling, among other moves.

The franchise ending up around top-5 by the end of 2004 does not mean the person who steps in for the 2006 season is inheriting a top-5 defense.

Ellis was a pro bowler in the 4-3, Robertson played at a pro bowl level in 2004 in the 4-3, Vilma was a pro bowler in the 4-3, Barton played at a pro bowl level in the 4-3 in '04. Ellis, Vilma and Robertson were 3 really good players to build around but for some reason Mangini came in and changed systems even though our best players were suited for the 4-3. I didn't say it was Mangini's presence I said it was Mangini's fault for switching schemes when we weren't prepared to do so.

As of 3/10/06 we were $14 mil under so I'm not sure how we were $20 mil over and I doubt we bring back fabini or Law even if we had the cap room. We knew Law was basically a 1 year deal and he wouldn't be here beyond '05 and Fabini was old and breaking down.

Of course top 5 in '04 doesn't automatically translate to top 5 in '06 BUT we had pieces in place and I think we had 7 or 8 guys back from the D that started in the '04 playoffs. Ellis, Robertson, Thomas, Vilma, Barton, Hobson, Coleman, Barrett. The biggest difference was we had Kerry Rhodes in place of Reggie Tongue. We didn't have to start over on D but Mangini chose to do so, MAYBE it works out best long term as we are putting some good 3-4 pieces in place but it hasn't worked out to this point and we are about to rid ourselves of a very talented LB in Vilma.

[JETSFAN5180]

Ellis was a pro bowler in the 4-3, Robertson played at a pro bowl level in 2004 in the 4-3, Vilma was a pro bowler in the 4-3, Barton played at a pro bowl level in the 4-3 in '04. Ellis, Vilma and Robertson were 3 really good players to build around but for some reason Mangini came in and changed systems even though our best players were suited for the 4-3. I didn't say it was Mangini's presence I said it was Mangini's fault for switching schemes when we weren't prepared to do so.

As of 3/10/06 we were $14 mil under so I'm not sure how we were $20 mil over and I doubt we bring back fabini or Law even if we had the cap room. We knew Law was basically a 1 year deal and he wouldn't be here beyond '05 and Fabini was old and breaking down.

Of course top 5 in '04 doesn't automatically translate to top 5 in '06 BUT we had pieces in place and I think we had 7 or 8 guys back from the D that started in the '04 playoffs. Ellis, Robertson, Thomas, Vilma, Barton, Hobson, Coleman, Barrett. The biggest difference was we had Kerry Rhodes in place of Reggie Tongue. We didn't have to start over on D but Mangini chose to do so, MAYBE it works out best long term as we are putting some good 3-4 pieces in place but it hasn't worked out to this point and we are about to rid ourselves of a very talented LB in Vilma.

Exactly my point nyjunc A VERY TALENTEDED LB IN VILMA.Linebackers with his knowledge of the game and field leadership dont come around too often.He was he Defensive Rookie of the year not too long ago. At 4-12 the last thing we should be doing is getting rid of talent.Mangini played the stubborness game with Kendall and look where that got us.

If Vilma leaves this will be another James Farrior situation all over again.Watch and see.

[Sperm Edwards]

Exactly my point nyjunc A VERY TALENTEDED LB IN VILMA.Linebackers with his knowledge of the game and field leadership dont come around too often.He was he Defensive Rookie of the year not too long ago. At 4-12 the last thing we should be doing is getting rid of talent.Mangini played the stubborness game with Kendall and look where that got us.

If Vilma leaves this will be another James Farrior situation all over again.Watch and see.

It's not the Farrior sitation at all. We offered Farrior a contract and he took less money in Pittsburgh.

[JETSFAN5180]

It's not the Farrior sitation at all. We offered Farrior a contract and he took less money in Pittsburgh.

Its a Farrior situation based on a talented LB leaving this team and going somewhere else to flourish.I dont care what the reason may be.Im positive Vilma can contribute on this defense.For years hes played with less talent than there is now.Add a few more players and this could be a good defense.Letting a player of his talent go is not a step in the right direction.

[Sperm Edwards]

Its a Farrior situation based on a talented LB leaving this team and going somewhere else to flourish.I dont care what the reason may be.Im positive Vilma can contribute on this defense.For years hes played with less talent than there is now.Add a few more players and this could be a good defense.Letting a player of his talent go is not a step in the right direction.

How many years should this franchise wait for the great Jonathan Vilma to "get it" as teams convert rushing first down after first down by running right at him?

He's not the great player you make him out to be. That same year when he led the league in tackles, I think Eric Coleman wasn't far behind. Tackle numbers are frequently a function of opportunity, not proof of (positive) difference-making.

He was really solid for a rookie; I'll give you that. But that was 3 seasons and a knee injury ago. Only mistake we made with him was not dumping him before 2007 when there were lots of teams who actually might have wanted him. The only team I've heard of with any interest at all in Vilma is the Lions & they suck. No one else seems even slightly interested. Ask yourself why.

If he was all that, teams would be breaking our door down, trying to out-bid each other the second we gave him permission to seek trades on his own. That hasn't happened.

And again, we offered Farrior a contract to stay here. He turned it down & chose to go to Pittsburgh for less money.

[#27TheDominator]

Its a Farrior situation based on a talented LB leaving this team and going somewhere else to flourish.I dont care what the reason may be.Im positive Vilma can contribute on this defense.For years hes played with less talent than there is now.Add a few more players and this could be a good defense.Letting a player of his talent go is not a step in the right direction.

Just because he succeeds elsewhere does not make it a mistake. Why don't you wait and see what we are offered before you declare this a step in the wrong direction? He certainly wasn't flourishing the last couple of years.

[JETSFAN5180]

A prime example, don't get attached to any JETS player, they will either be traded or cut. Only the Jets would let a very talented player go and hope they can replace him. When you have good players you design schemes and defenses to maximize their ability. You do not trade/cut them because your not inventive or smart enough to figure out how to use them. In typical Jets fashion, the next team Vilma goes to he will excel and be in the Pro Bowl for the next few years.And we will look back and say shoulda coulda woulda. The JETS way.

[Sperm Edwards]

A prime example, don't get attached to any JETS player, they will either be traded or cut. Only the Jets would let a very talented player go and hope they can replace him. When you have good players you design schemes and defenses to maximize their ability. You do not trade/cut them because your not inventive or smart enough to figure out how to use them. In typical Jets fashion, the next team Vilma goes to he will excel and be in the Pro Bowl for the next few years.And we will look back and say shoulda coulda woulda. The JETS way.

What makes you think he will be in the probowl for the next few years? To date he has made ONE pro bowl in 4 seasons and that was as an alternate at that. Now he's a perennial pro bowler? lol

[#27TheDominator]

Sentimentality makes for a ****ty football team.

[JETSFAN5180]

What makes you think he will be in the probowl for the next few years? To date he has made ONE pro bowl in 4 seasons and that was as an alternate at that. Now he's a perennial pro bowler? lol

He stands a better chance at making the Pro-Bowl ANYWHERE else but here.We had 0 players in the Pro-Bowl this year.A total embarrassment.Woody,Mangini, Tanne be ashamed very ashamed.

Bash Vilma all you want.Its a Jet thing I understand been around long enough.Years back you cheered him and loved the pick.Now its what have you done for me lately.

Vilma leaves the Jets he will be another James Farrior.

[Sperm Edwards]

He stands a better chance at making the Pro-Bowl ANYWHERE else but here.We had 0 players in the Pro-Bowl this year.A total embarrassment.Woody,Mangini, Tanne be ashamed very ashamed.

Bash Vilma all you want.Its a Jet thing I understand been around long enough.Years back you cheered him and loved the pick.Now its what have you done for me lately.

Vilma leaves the Jets he will be another James Farrior.

I never loved the pick. Thought it was stupid to trade for Cowart & then draft a MLB with a first round pick. And to bypass a true NT when we knew we weren't re-signing Fergie. So put those words in someone else's mouth. He isn't my style of player (for whatever value the Jets place on what I prefer) in any scheme, though he will be more productive in a different scheme.

Either way, he's not worth retaining and he's not worth molding an entire defense around. He's simply not a great player and never will be. He has never been voted to start in a pro bowl and never will be. He has never been selected as an all-pro and never will be. That's whether he's on another team in a Tampa-2 or if he stays here & we stupidly go back to a Tampa-2 or some other 4-3 scheme.

He was never a dominant defender like the player he was ridiculously compared to when he was coming out (Ray Lewis) and never will be.

There are MANY worse LB'ers in the NFL, but we can do far better without even burning a first round pick or signing to a ridiculously expensive contract extension. In fact we just DID this past year with David Harris.

I will not weep when he's gone nor reminisce about the good-ol'-days when he was here.

[JETSFAN5180]

I never loved the pick. Thought it was stupid to trade for Cowart & then draft a MLB with a first round pick. And to bypass a true NT when we knew we weren't re-signing Fergie. So put those words in someone else's mouth. He isn't my style of player (for whatever value the Jets place on what I prefer) in any scheme, though he will be more productive in a different scheme.

Either way, he's not worth retaining and he's not worth molding an entire defense around. He's simply not a great player and never will be. He has never been voted to start in a pro bowl and never will be. He has never been selected as an all-pro and never will be. That's whether he's on another team in a Tampa-2 or if he stays here & we stupidly go back to a Tampa-2 or some other 4-3 scheme.

He was never a dominant defender like the player he was ridiculously compared to when he was coming out (Ray Lewis) and never will be.

There are MANY worse LB'ers in the NFL, but we can do far better without even burning a first round pick or signing to a ridiculously expensive contract extension. In fact we just DID this past year with David Harris.

I will not weep when he's gone nor reminisce about the good-ol'-days when he was here.

I wont weep either I will be disapointed if he goes elsewhere and becomes a superstar.I hope your right about Harris lets see what he does in a full season. With teams keying on him and running away from him.I hope next year Harris isnt given the Vilma treatment if things dont go as planned.

Vilma was the Defensive Rookie of the year lets not forget that.He flourished in a system that worked best for him.Mangini is players away from being succesful in the 3-4.

I still think Vilma is part of this team come 2008 training camp.