The Debate is over! Concrete reason why Clemens will be starter!

[drago]

I can't remember if it was the first or second kick, i think the second...but Jordan ripped off a 15 or 20 yard run down the left sideline. It was clear their linebackers were worn down. All the jets needed to do was get behind their tackles (not with martin, with anyone but martin) and grind the yards.

Had herm stayed moderatly conservative, not to be confused with ultra-conservative) and ran the ball to jordan 4 times that drive instead of 2, we'd have gained another first down or two. Hell he may have ended up in painted grass for all we know.

Making Brien the goat is the easy way out, i put that on the CS. No way Martin should have had twice the carries as Jordan in that game.

[124]

Yeah, lets blame Curtis Martin for struggling against the leagues #1 run defense that season yet celebrate the fact that Jordan had a nice run or two in the 4th quarter after Martin wore them down. Jordan deserved the amount of carries he got drago because the coaching staff KNOWS he's not capable of handling a load. Holy christ havn't his years in Oakland taught you and other people anything?

He got the ball plenty down the stretch in the 4th quarter and he was stopped just like Martin except that one god damn run. Stop putting the blame on Martin and put the blame on the coaching staff for taking a knee and Brien for missing the kick.

You can call him a scapegoat all you want, but if you're an NFL kicker you should make one of two kicks in the final two minutes from 43 and 47 yards out. Period. He choked.

[Jade Green]

I said ultra conservative referring to the kneel.

[drago]

Yeah, lets blame Curtis Martin for struggling against the leagues #1 run defense that season yet celebrate the fact that Jordan had a nice run or two in the 4th quarter after Martin wore them down. Jordan deserved the amount of carries he got drago because the coaching staff KNOWS he's not capable of handling a load. Holy christ havn't his years in Oakland taught you and other people anything?

He got the ball plenty down the stretch in the 4th quarter and he was stopped just like Martin except that one god damn run. Stop putting the blame on Martin and put the blame on the coaching staff for taking a knee and Brien for missing the kick.

You can call him a scapegoat all you want, but if you're an NFL kicker you should make one of two kicks in the final two minutes from 43 and 47 yards out. Period. He choked.

It's funny how Martin isn't expected to produce against the leagues number one run defense, but a 30 year old corey dillon did just fine the following week. I know everyone loves "my average" martin, but he's a compiler, not a playoff gamer.

I'd have taken at least 10 RB's ahead of him in any given year in any given playoff game.

[124]

Jordan: 5 carries, 30 yards --- his 20 yard gain the long meaning his other four carries were for just 10 yards, a 2.5 ypc average. All five carries were in the 4th quarter on those final two drives.

[shawn306]

Marty didn't take a knee and Kaeding should have made his kick too.

They put it wherever Brien was most comfortable, I don't remember the specific location but it wa where brien wanted mto kick from.

No but after the Chargers marched down the field. (Most of it on short passes) they stopped throwing, figuring they were close enough and ran it three straight times.

It cost SD a season and the Jets with just about the same scenario did the same thing.

It's Chad taking the knee that really bothered me.

[124]

It's funny how Martin isn't expected to produce against the leagues number one run defense, but a 30 year old corey dillon did just fine the following week. I know everyone loves "my average" martin, but he's a compiler, not a playoff gamer.

I'd have taken at least 10 RB's ahead of him in any given year in any given playoff game.

And that is why you're not a coach in the National Football League.

Yep. Average backs become the 4th all time rushers in NFL history.

And yep, lets all blame Martin, not the fact that the Offensive Line was just over powered by the Pittsburgh front seven all day long.

And yep, Martin can do a lot about Chad Pennington and his passing attack that puts fear into the defense.

And yep, Curtis Martin, unlike any back in NFL history, should be expected to tear up defenses when they're putting 8 or 9 in the box routinely.

The Martin haters game is OLD.

[drago]

And that is why you're not a coach in the National Football League.

Yep. Average backs become the 4th all time rushers in NFL history.

And yep, lets all blame Martin, not the fact that the Offensive Line was just over powered by the Pittsburgh front seven all day long.

The Martin haters game is OLD.

Martin was great at playing with pain, not at running the ball. He was good at running the ball.

[124]

Oh yeah and Curtis just SUCKED that game, right drago?

19 carries, 77 yards (Do the math, 4.1 ypc) -- 4 receptions, 29 yards.

Maybe they should've gave him the ball more often (because you know, he can actually carry the ball 25-30 times a game when asked) instead of putting it into the hands of Chad F'ing Pennington (21 of 33, 182 yards, 1 INT, 3 sacks).

Don't give me this crap that he wasn't a great runner. He had great field vision with decent speed and became the 4th all time leading rusher. Good backs don't get that far.

[Jade Green]

Martin was great at playing with pain, not at running the ball. He was good at running the ball.

Wow 4th all time is just good.

When he gets into the hall first ballot, does that make him good or great?

[drago]

Wow 4th all time is just good.

where's he rank in yards per carry? still top 5?

[Irish Jet]

It's funny how Martin isn't expected to produce against the leagues number one run defense, but a 30 year old corey dillon did just fine the following week. I know everyone loves "my average" martin, but he's a compiler, not a playoff gamer.

I'd have taken at least 10 RB's ahead of him in any given year in any given playoff game.

Corey Dillon did just fine???

He had 24 carries for only 73 yards. That's a 3 YPA with Tom Brady as his QB and with camera's as guidance.

Curtis had 19 carries and got 77 yards. That's a 4.1 YPA with Chad Pennington as his QB.

4.1 YPC vs the leagues #1 rushing D (And Pittsburgh was really dominant that year) is not bad at all Drago.

[Jade Green]

where's he rank in yards per carry? still top 5?

Allot more goes into that than just him.

He IS 4th all time, he IS a first ballot hall of famer, he was GREAT!!!

[124]

Corey Dillon did just fine???

He had 24 carries for only 73 yards. That's a 3 YPA with Tom Brady as his QB and with camera's as guidance.

Curtis had 19 carries and got 77 yards. That's a 4.1 YPA with Chad Pennington as his QB.

4.1 YPC vs the leagues #1 rushing D (And Pittsburgh was really dominant that year) is not bad at all Drago.

Owned much?

Drago is just another Savage69, a Curtis hater with an agenda. Curtis Martin haters are just laughable.

[drago]

Allot more goes into that than just him.

He IS 4th all time, he IS a first ballot hall of famer, he was GREAT!!!

he's a first ballot HOFer because of durability, not greating running ability...again, he was a good runner, and a good to great blocker.

Owned much?

Drago is just another Savage69, a Curtis hater with an agenda. Curtis Martin haters are just laughable.

You keep saying i hate him...he was good. It was nice to have a good running back, i'm not sure how else i can put that.

[Jade Green]

he's a first ballot HOFer because of durability, not greating running ability...again, he was a good runner, and a good to great blocker.

You keep saying i hate him...he was good. It was nice to have a good running back, i'm not sure how else i can put that.

First ballot hall of famers are GREAT period.

This is just stupid now.

[drago]

First ballot hall of famers are GREAT period.

This is just stupid now.

using that logic all All-pro players are great not good. So does kerry rhodes suck? or does he need a probowl to be good?

[Jade Green]

using that logic all All-pro players are great not good. So does kerry rhodes suck? or does he need a probowl to be good?

Are you kidding me???

Comparing a pro bowl to a first ballot hall of fame is not using any logic.

Go away!!!

[Irish Jet]

He wasnt, if he had to depend on a kicker and didnt produce points. It just meant that he played poorly in a division game in the playoffs, which is why we need another QB. Its so funny to me how Chad Pennington is so respected and "protected" by many fans but when push comes to shove its never him producing to get us wins. We got to hear things like "well, if the kicker would have made it" or something like that.

Thats the differenct between Pennington and the greats that are currently playing the game of football.

You make absolutely no sense at all.

I'm not saying Chad played well, not saying that at all. I'm saying that had Brien made a kick he would have been in an AFC title game regardless of the circumstances, are you saying that's not true?

You are aware when Peyton Manning played the #1 D (Baltimore Ravens) 2 years ago he had to completely rely on his kicker?? Vinatieri scored all of Indys points that day so yes QB's do have to depend on their kickers sometimes.

[Irish Jet]

If Chad "won" that game he would have had his arse kicked in Foxboro the next week. 3 points doesn't cut it.

The Pats went to Pittsburgh after the Jets lost and kicked the living **** out of the Steelers.

True, BB always knew those defensive signals would come in handy.

[drago]

Are you kidding me???

Comparing a pro bowl to a first ballot hall of fame is not using any logic.

Go away!!!

Is Curtis Martin the 4th best runningback to play the game? Because i don't think he's even top 50. Regardless of how high a standard you hold the HOF voters.

[Jade Green]

Is Curtis Martin the 4th best runningback to play the game? Because i don't think he's even top 50. Regardless of how high a standard you hold the HOF voters.

So the 4th highest rusher all time, is not even a top 50 running back.

I will not even dignify this with a further response, have a nice day.

[drago]

So the 4th highest rusher all time, is not even a top 50 running back.

I will not even dignify this with a further response, have a nice day.

you just responded...

anywho, payton, sayers, j brown, tomlinson, sanders, e smith, t thomas, dillon, b jackson, l johnson...All have had much better success even if it was for only a few years, which is fine. Long term, average success is not what i want at an RB position.

If martin had a long career at playing Offensive tackle as steady as he did, it would have been better than at running back. There are always fresh legs in the college ranks that can come in and run hard for you, give you your average yards per carry, get you long run TD's. Runningbacks come and go so frequently there is no reason to have a compiler that can't break the long TD's.

Martin was good, i'm glad we had him, but by him only supplying steady play, it handcuffed us from being a great offense. Clearly there are other factors in the equation, he never worked with a great QB, although he has had good to great offensive lines.

I guess i am of the mind that I would have taken a Larry Johnson type for his two amazing years and try to find another one, than to take a Curtis Martin for a decade.

My only point...now don't freak out on me...i would want steady, solid, "curtis martin" type players ont he offensive and defensive line. At running back, i want an explosive player that may wear down and have a short career, then find a new one.

[Jade Green]

you just responded...

anywho, payton, sayers, j brown, tomlinson, sanders, e smith, t thomas, dillon, b jackson, l johnson...All have had much better success even if it was for only a few years, which is fine. Long term, average success is not what i want at an RB position.

If martin had a long career at playing Offensive tackle as steady as he did, it would have been better than at running back. There are always fresh legs in the college ranks that can come in and run hard for you, give you your average yards per carry, get you long run TD's. Runningbacks come and go so frequently there is no reason to have a compiler that can't break the long TD's.

Martin was good, i'm glad we had him, but by him only supplying steady play, it handcuffed us from being a great offense. Clearly there are other factors in the equation, he never worked with a great QB, although he has had good to great offensive lines.

I guess i am of the mind that I would have taken a Larry Johnson type for his two amazing years and try to find another one, than to take a Curtis Martin for a decade.

My only point...now don't freak out on me...i would want steady, solid, "curtis martin" type players ont he offensive and defensive line. At running back, i want an explosive player that may wear down and have a short career, then find a new one.

Again, your logic is FLAWED, and I said I would not dignify your last post with a FURTHER response. (nice comprhension) SHOCKER!!!

You say Curtis is not top 50 and you name 11 backs you feel were better.

The fact that you would trade a hall of fame career for 2 years of running is ridiculous.

You act like these explosive RB's are a dime a dozen, we'll see how many become available, and how many were available at 6 where we picked this draft.

Sorry but this has really gotten too stupid to continue for me, but don't worry I'm sure with your flawed way of thinking someone else will pick this up and slam you for it.

[Blackout]

So the 4th highest rusher all time, is not even a top 50 running back.

I will not even dignify this with a further response, have a nice day.

1-Barry Sanders

2-Emmit Smith

3-Jim Brown

4-Walter Payton

5-Eric Dickerson

6-Marcus Allen

7-Curtis Martin

8-Marshall Faulk (probably could be higher)

9-L.T.

10-Tony Dorsett

honorable mentions: Terrell Davis, Franco Harris, John Riggins, Larry Csonka, Thurman Thomas, Reggie Bush, OJ Simpson

[Blackout]

Again, your logic is FLAWED, and I said I would not dignify your last post with a FURTHER response. (nice comprhension) SHOCKER!!!

You say Curtis is not top 50 and you name 11 backs you feel were better.

The fact that you would trade a hall of fame career for 2 years of running is ridiculous.

You act like these explosive RB's are a dime a dozen, we'll see how many become available, and how many were available at 6 where we picked this draft.

Sorry but this has really gotten too stupid to continue for me, but don't worry I'm sure with your flawed way of thinking someone else will pick this up and slam you for it.

drago is a crackhead don't bother replyin'

[#27TheDominator]

1-Barry Sanders

2-Emmit Smith

3-Jim Brown

4-Walter Payton

5-Eric Dickerson

6-Marcus Allen

7-Curtis Martin

8-Marshall Faulk (probably could be higher)

9-L.T.

10-Tony Dorsett

honorable mentions: Terrell Davis, Franco Harris, John Riggins, Larry Csonka, Thurman Thomas, Reggie Bush, OJ Simpson

Earl Campbell doesn't even get honorable mention? This list is a complete disgrace. OJ is only honorable mention? Are you penalizing him for being a murderer? Based on this list I hope you are very, very young.

PS: I do like the Reggie Bush joke.

[drago]

Earl Campbell doesn't even get honorable mention? This list is a complete disgrace. OJ is only honorable mention? Are you penalizing him for being a murderer? Based on this list I hope you are very, very young.

PS: I do like the Reggie Bush joke.

hey dom, would you take martin over any of those guys on that list? aside from bush..lol

[villain_the_foe]

you just responded...

anywho, payton, sayers, j brown, tomlinson, sanders, e smith, t thomas, dillon, b jackson, l johnson...All have had much better success even if it was for only a few years, which is fine. Long term, average success is not what i want at an RB position.

If martin had a long career at playing Offensive tackle as steady as he did, it would have been better than at running back. There are always fresh legs in the college ranks that can come in and run hard for you, give you your average yards per carry, get you long run TD's. Runningbacks come and go so frequently there is no reason to have a compiler that can't break the long TD's.

Martin was good, i'm glad we had him, but by him only supplying steady play, it handcuffed us from being a great offense. Clearly there are other factors in the equation, he never worked with a great QB, although he has had good to great offensive lines.

I guess i am of the mind that I would have taken a Larry Johnson type for his two amazing years and try to find another one, than to take a Curtis Martin for a decade.

My only point...now don't freak out on me...i would want steady, solid, "curtis martin" type players ont he offensive and defensive line. At running back, i want an explosive player that may wear down and have a short career, then find a new one.

You see, its all about how you view "success". If you want a RB that will give you 2 seasons at 2000 yards a season and then will be a bum for the rest of his career then you as a franchise has to find another RB that can put up those same stats I guess would be successful for you.

Having a RB who would have been the first player to rush for 1,000+ yards in his first "I believe" 11 seasons, Passing the greats that you mentioned Emitt Smith and Barry Sanders" is a level of success as well...though he got injured and didnt do it...he's tied with those "Consistent Greats that you seem NOT to like".

Okay, let me break it down for you. The difference between Curtis Martin and every player that you mentioned is that Martin wasnt the most "flashy" most "speedy" most "Famous" RB on the field. However, he was the most productive when putting his team in a "positive" position.

For example, The Great Barry Sanders. Lets use him for an example. Barry will cut your legs from under you like somone cutting down a tree. He would hit you with the sickest crossover your legs have ever experienced and then he will run 89 yards for a touch down and then "give" the ball to the ref...not spike it (Its a fact that Barry Sanders NEVER spiked a football after a TD in his pro career). The problem with this is that, Barry Sanders also has the highest yards lost for a RB because of all the dancing and cutbacks that he did. Granted, he had absolutely no line at all, which made him even greater....but facts are facts. He lost ALOT OF YARDS which alot of times put the Lions in situations, that not being a very good football team to begin with they had to eventually force a play which was picked off or had to punt. Though Barry was the sickest "RUNNING" back of all time, yet he wasnt as consistently productive as Curtis Martin....its just a fact man.

Curtis Martin: No matter what the situation was, no matter the weather, if it was on grass, turf, The #1 rushing Defense or the Superbowl Champions of theeee ENTIRE WORLD.....He got you 4 f-ing yards. Do you know how important that was to a Jets team who had a QB that couldnt throw deep downfield (Which made it harder because the safeties always cheated up)? or to a QB like Testy who was almost as Immobile as Dan Marino and just couldnt avoid the sack? better yet, do you know how important that is to ANY TEAM? He doesnt lose yards almost ever. he's always in the "plus" category. He's not the "do nothing RB that will get you 30 yds in 3 quarters and one ridiculous 70 yard run in 1 quarter and all of a sudden he had a great game RB"....oh no, that wasnt Curtis "My Favorite" Martin. Dude, CHRIS BERMAN from ESPN even knew the deal when it came to Curtis Martin. How many times have you heard Chris Berman do highlights on a game and with the RB's he'll say "And_He_Could_Go_All_The_Way"? Alot wouldnt you say? You see, he rarely did that for Curtis Martin....but what you would hear him say is something more important than anyone going all the way because Chris Berman understood football and how valuable it is for a RB to do the things that Curtis did. He would always refer to Curtis as Curtis "MY FAVORITE" Martin. The host for ESPN's Football show even knew how gangsta Curtis Martin was on the field. Curtis didnt have to "go all the way", because where he was going he took the entire team there,....and YOU'RE HONESTLY SAYING that not only would you NOT want that on your team, BUT there are 50 other RB's that are better than Curtis "MY FAVORITE" Martin??? Really?????

I really dont think that you understand what 4 yards mean in a game of "inches". you have 4 chances to get 10 yards for a first down (well really 3 downs most of the time). Curtis Martin will get you that first down in 3 downs every time. you didnt have to wait for him in the 3rd or 4th qtr when he decided to break for 70 yards. He kept you on the field competing the entire game, which helped Pennington get those points that he's not getting now. He kept you on the field, getting the WR's in the game, He kept you on the field, To make John halls field goal kicks alittle closer instead of punting the ball to the other team, he kept you on the field my friend. Every week he kept us on the field, gave us a chance to smile and be proud to wear that booger green jersey from a franchise who looked like they were just born to lose football games....Curtis made alot of us love this F#cked up team that should have gotten him a ring if we would have spent the money like we did this year. The Patriots, Bills and Dolphins hate us....but the've ALWAYS respected Curtis Martin as a football player...why is that?

Curtis Martin, even outside of his amount of Yards total is still in the Top 5 to top 15 greatest RB's of all time for what he did in light of the team, not in light of personal stats (oh and trust, being in the top 15 greatest RB's with all the RB's to ever be in the league is a f-ing honor and a half). When you needed him to push out 100 of the years toughest yards against a Defense who had a "against the run" average of 70+ yards a game, and do that year, after year, after year, after year....I call him a "savior". When you need Curtis to run for 196 yards in Week 1 with a couple 20+ yard runs to help us get on that 5 game winning streak instead of starting the season out 0-1 I call him Curtis "My Favorite" Martin. When you ask him to go out there hurt damn near every game and do all this for you but you dont hear him bickering for "More Money or Trade Me" in the off season I call him Curtis "My Favorite" Martin. When you see a coach in Mike Holmgren for the Seahawks keep his RB out of a game just so Curtis Martin can get the recongnition that he deserves of not just being the RB yards leader but being in the lime light for his 15 mins of fame for being the Superb consistent Running back that he always has been....I call that league-wide respect.

Thats equivalent to Brett Favre telling his line to let Micheal Strahan through so he can get that record sack so he could get the recognition that he deserves for the hard work that he's done, not just for that year....but every year.

Cory Dillon doesnt get that. Alot of the 50 RB that you would put in front of Curtis doesnt get that.

So with that being said, I'll say this, With all the people you put infront of Curtis Martin...It would be like home sweet Home for him anyway. How many times has Curtis been over looked while putting in the most consistently productive work in the league over the long haul?

Its like the rabbit vs the turtle man...in the end the turtle always won!

[villain_the_foe]

Earl Campbell doesn't even get honorable mention? This list is a complete disgrace. OJ is only honorable mention? Are you penalizing him for being a murderer? Based on this list I hope you are very, very young.

PS: I do like the Reggie Bush joke.

I agree. That list was a joke.

[Barton]

For 1 game, Curtis Martin doesnt even sniff the top 50.

[124]

For 1 game, Curtis Martin doesnt even sniff the top 50.

:yawn:

I seriously need whatever you're taking man. Send me up a package of that fine Columbian.

[villain_the_foe]

For 1 game, Curtis Martin doesnt even sniff the top 50.

For 1 game he may not...to you, but for 10+ seasons he's a HOF, probowl RB who has proven himself to be a RB that you can rely on for 4 of the yards that any other RB that you can name outside of Jim Brown wont get on a consistent basis.

You or anyone else could name 50 RB's better than C. Mart. Better yet, You couldnt name 25 arguably.

[124]

A Curtis Martin hater / LaMont Jordan fan on his daily walk:

[Barton]

:yawn:

I seriously need whatever you're taking man. Send me up a package of that fine Columbian.

Miami's finestttttt.