The Debate is over! Concrete reason why Clemens will be starter!

[124]

This crap is getting ridiculous. However shawn, all the new posters who weren't here for the Chad / Kellen debate last season are having theirs now, unfortunately.

[SouthernJet]

This is the only Concrete I know of

http://www.goodberrys.com/html/goodberry_s_carolina_concrete.html

[villain_the_foe]

What exactly is your argument here? It's Chad's fault that the Jets didn't pass as much? How am I to be impressed by more completions when Chad's % was higher? If you want to argue just don't use that year's stats as your evidence. You better have more yards and completions if you pass it 200 more times. You can argue from the last 6 years but the stats you are giving here do not favor your argument.

My arguement have been favored quite rightfully I may say. All I was arguing is that Chad didnt have a "great" year. he had a very good year. the stats show that he didnt do enough to have a so called "great year". my point has been stated.

I can throw 5 for 5 for 100 yds, 20 yards Per Catch, 1 touch down 0 Int's and a 153.1 QB Rating and have a great year? c'mon.

He did great for the situation that he and the jets were in but as an overall "great" season....I've seen better year after year for the past 15 years. all im saying is that his year wasnt "Great". It showed that he had flashes of greatness but his downside (bad arm) was much more relevant in his career as we've all seen. horrible 2 min drives and 4th quarter picks. And now to spice things up, he's now throwing redzone int's. yeah, he just keeps getting better and better.

[villain_the_foe]

Just remember that Browning Nagle had a cannon arm himself. Not saying Clemens is going to be that bad but arm strength is overrated. Let's hope that he can do more than throw hard passes.

I really hate to see people use that "arm strength is overrated" when we have chad as our QB proving that its not so damn overrated when you dont have it.

[TheShow]

Yawn... GO CHAD!

[Sharrow]

Clemens will be the starter, it really seems pretty obvious to me. And it doesn't have anything to do with stats. The fact is that we don't know what kind of player he is yet. There have been a lot of quarterbacks over the years who sucked in their first 10 games, who cares. What we do know is what kind of player Chad Pennington is. The sooner the team finds out what kind of player Clemens is, the sooner they can decide what to do about the QB position. And there's no way they can find out what type of player he is unless he starts. Who knows, maybe he's the next Steve Young, lol.

[villain_the_foe]

Yawn... GO CHAD!

Yawn.....Chad needs to do exactly what you said......"Go".

[#27TheDominator]

My arguement have been favored quite rightfully I may say. All I was arguing is that Chad didnt have a "great" year. he had a very good year. the stats show that he didnt do enough to have a so called "great year". my point has been stated.

I can throw 5 for 5 for 100 yds, 20 yards Per Catch, 1 touch down 0 Int's and a 153.1 QB Rating and have a great year? c'mon.

He did great for the situation that he and the jets were in but as an overall "great" season....I've seen better year after year for the past 15 years. all im saying is that his year wasnt "Great". It showed that he had flashes of greatness but his downside (bad arm) was much more relevant in his career as we've all seen. horrible 2 min drives and 4th quarter picks. And now to spice things up, he's now throwing redzone int's. yeah, he just keeps getting better and better.

Funny thing is that I agree that Clemens will most likely start the season. I feel it's his job to lose. However, I feel that Chad's 2002 season was special. Greatest season of all time? No, but great? Sure. Comparing him to a vintage Peyton Manning's season and the NFL MVP and having Chad statistically superior does not help your case. True 2002 has no bearing on 2008. The only thing that might have less bearing would be Clemens 2007 preseason.

[Arsis]

Funny thing is that I agree that Clemens will most likely start the season. I feel it's his job to lose. However, I feel that Chad's 2002 season was special. Greatest season of all time? No, but great? Sure. Comparing him to a vintage Peyton Manning's season and the NFL MVP and having Chad statistically superior does not help your case. True 2002 has no bearing on 2008. The only thing that might have less bearing would be Clemens 2007 preseason.

2002 was as fluke, and it wasn't even that special. He had one fluke above average partial season, big woop.

[jetguy32]

Chad will start this year. Just look at the statistics between Chad and Kellen behind the same O-line. Chad is better. Tangini has built around Chad there is no time to take another chance to see what kellen has we cant go 1 and 4 and say o.k. its time for Chad. Kellen has training camp to beat chad in which chad has every advantage he is too smart. Kellen is not good 52% completion pct., 5 TD 10 INT. not gonna cut it. Chad 11 TD 9INT 68% Completion PCT. C'mon. Behind the same O-LIne!!!!!

[Sharrow]

Chad will start this year. Just look at the statistics between Chad and Kellen behind the same O-line. Chad is better. Tangini has built around Chad there is no time to take another chance to see what kellen has we cant go 1 and 4 and say o.k. its time for Chad. Kellen has training camp to beat chad in which chad has every advantage he is too smart. Kellen is not good 52% completion pct., 5 TD 10 INT. not gonna cut it. Chad 11 TD 9INT 68% Completion PCT. C'mon. Behind the same O-LIne!!!!!

There is no time? Why is there no time? Who are these all important players we will lose next year? Barton and Nugent?

[villain_the_foe]

2002 was as fluke, and it wasn't even that special. He had one fluke above average partial season, big woop.

Thank you. It was an above average bench QB. It wasnt a Great NFL year for a QB overall. I dont know why thats so hard to understand. It was special in regards to what it meant for us as Jets fans. but it wasn a great year.

[Sharrow]

Fluke or not, it doesn't matter. The Chad of 2002 doesn't exist anymore.

[jetfuel]

My arguement have been favored quite rightfully I may say. All I was arguing is that Chad didnt have a "great" year. he had a very good year. the stats show that he didnt do enough to have a so called "great year". my point has been stated.

I can throw 5 for 5 for 100 yds, 20 yards Per Catch, 1 touch down 0 Int's and a 153.1 QB Rating and have a great year? c'mon.

He did great for the situation that he and the jets were in but as an overall "great" season....I've seen better year after year for the past 15 years. all im saying is that his year wasnt "Great". It showed that he had flashes of greatness but his downside (bad arm) was much more relevant in his career as we've all seen. horrible 2 min drives and 4th quarter picks. And now to spice things up, he's now throwing redzone int's. yeah, he just keeps getting better and better.

I still think the numbers favor Chad there and at the very least make aa strong case that he was as good as Gannon and Manning that year. As a matter of fact he beat Peyton 41-0 in the playoffs that year - best game I ever went to.

That's all in the past now though. It's pointless to argue any farther. The question is, what are you gonna do if you're wrong about 2008 and Chad starts? Are you gonna wish him off the field or stand by the guy? I know I'll be rooting for Clemens if he starts regardless of the fact I feel Pennington is better.

P.S. if you can go 5 for 5 for 100 yards and throw a TD why don't you go down to camp? Not even Kellen the Great could accomplish that last year.

[jetfuel]

Fluke or not, it doesn't matter. The Chad of 2002 doesn't exist anymore.

Let's hope the same goes for the Clemens of 2007 if he gets the job as many seem to think.

[jetfuel]

There is no time? Why is there no time? Who are these all important players we will lose next year? Barton and Nugent?

I think what he means is that the Jets can't afford to start slow again this year. With that logic, all the Kellen supporters can say there is no time for Chad to start and have to go to Kellen after a rough start. The argument can go either way on this depending on who you feel has the better chance to lead the Jets to victory. People who do not support Chad will say they've seen enough of him and it's Kellen's turn to start. I do agree with Jetguy32 that Chad should start and that Kellen should have a chance to win the job in camp. That all remains to be seen.

[stoicsentry]

I'm a Penny fan. Really am. But I think Clemens should be the starter next year. If for no other reason than I don't feel completely petrified when he's under center. I don't constantly worry about him throwing the pick six.

[nyjunc]

So if the crappy/injured receivers didn't drop passes that landed in their hands or chest, then Clemens is a better QB? He threw a catchable TD 3x at the end of the Baltimore game & the stat sheet only shows 0 TD's and 1 interception. An interception that went through a Jets WR's hands and into that of a defender's. Two more came when he was brought in cold off the bench at the end of the 4th quarter into must-pass situations after Chad led us to 3 points in 55+ minutes. And one of those two was a hail-mary pass at the end (hardly equal to a pick-6 in a close game).

It's not just interceptions (though that always sucks). Three of Chad's were returned for 4th quarter touchdowns. Most of his picks seemed to come in close games where we were winning or the game was within 7 points. He's a choke artist, and a veteran should be over that by now.

If the most compelling argument for Pennington is that his stats as a seasoned veteran with mostly healthy starting WR's were less awful than those Clemens put up in his first 7 games with mostly injured/backup WR's, then you win there.

They were both lousy. But the offense scored 5 points per game less with Pennington & he only had 1 win (after blowing 3 or 4 by himself) in 8 starts (9 games). His big upside is that if all goes well he might not be a liability. Well that sucks.

He will have to look like Joe Montana in camp to justify giving the starting job to.

You act like the receivers didn't drop passes for Chad when they surely did which helped to cost us games. Both QBs stunk last year, for Chad it was his first bad year as a healthy QB while for KC it was his first meaningful playing time. Both had crappy OL situations w/ no running game and both had injuries to deal w/ at WR. We have a much improved OL on paper which should improve the running game and make life alot easier oin whichever of the QBs wins the job. Let's also not forget that players do get hurt so whoever wins the job the other guy may be forced to play at some point anyway so why are we so divisive on this issue? AS Jet fans we should just care about winning and not about who our favorite players are.

One other qucik note, Laveranues Coles got hurt b/c Clemens underthrew him on that flea flicker against Pitt when he was wide open, if that ball i even close to hitting him in strdie he doesn't get hurt and he plays longer w/ Coles and Cotch.

And for the guy who started this thread you wrote:

back to the Jets' 3 wins with Clemens: NOT ONE POINT in those games was scored by the defense/special teams. in fact, the ONLY time that the Jets scored a non-offensive TD with Clemens as the QB was a kickoff return by Leon against the Redskins, a game which the Jets lost.

While no points were scored directly by the D/STs but they sure set up alot of points including the GW FG against Pitt. Clemens had 162 yards passing in that game and 56 of those yards came on that flea flicker which he underthrewand the Jets 2nd FG to put them up 13-7 was set up by a Rhodes INT at midfield.

Against Miami the D created FIVE turnovers while KC had a fumble that Miami returned for a TD and another INT.

The game against the Chiefs was a joke, both teams stunk and Clemens led us to 10 points in regulation against an awful team.

Clemens stunk as did Chad, they still both have the potnetial to be alot better in 2008 andn we'll need them to be. My problem w/ Clemens was he didn't get better at all as the season progressed, he didn't show any sign of improvement but what he did show that I liked was that he could forget an awful play, an awful qtr, an awful 3 qtrs and help us tie or win a game late. That quality I really like. I hope both guys play great this summer and the decision is very difficult, we have a team around them that should be a playoff contender again and alot will depend on the play of the QB.

[Sperm Edwards]

You act like the receivers didn't drop passes for Chad when they surely did which helped to cost us games. Both QBs stunk last year, for Chad it was his first bad year as a healthy QB while for KC it was his first meaningful playing time. Both had crappy OL situations w/ no running game and both had injuries to deal w/ at WR. We have a much improved OL on paper which should improve the running game and make life alot easier oin whichever of the QBs wins the job. Let's also not forget that players do get hurt so whoever wins the job the other guy may be forced to play at some point anyway so why are we so divisive on this issue? AS Jet fans we should just care about winning and not about who our favorite players are.

One other qucik note, Laveranues Coles got hurt b/c Clemens underthrew him on that flea flicker against Pitt when he was wide open, if that ball i even close to hitting him in strdie he doesn't get hurt and he plays longer w/ Coles and Cotch.

And for the guy who started this thread you wrote:

While no points were scored directly by the D/STs but they sure set up alot of points including the GW FG against Pitt. Clemens had 162 yards passing in that game and 56 of those yards came on that flea flicker which he underthrewand the Jets 2nd FG to put them up 13-7 was set up by a Rhodes INT at midfield.

Against Miami the D created FIVE turnovers while KC had a fumble that Miami returned for a TD and another INT.

The game against the Chiefs was a joke, both teams stunk and Clemens led us to 10 points in regulation against an awful team.

Clemens stunk as did Chad, they still both have the potnetial to be alot better in 2008 andn we'll need them to be. My problem w/ Clemens was he didn't get better at all as the season progressed, he didn't show any sign of improvement but what he did show that I liked was that he could forget an awful play, an awful qtr, an awful 3 qtrs and help us tie or win a game late. That quality I really like. I hope both guys play great this summer and the decision is very difficult, we have a team around them that should be a playoff contender again and alot will depend on the play of the QB.

Chad didn't show any improvement either. We scored a total of 19 points in his last 3 games combined. Not to mention that he's gotten progressively worse since 2002 ended, so spare me the "history" of his success. It wasn't merely a bad spat in 2007. He's been steadily getting worse and worse. And I'm not talking stats. You must have watched the games; he looked pathetic and fully threw away no fewer than 3 games.

I don't hate the guy or anything. I just hate watching the Jets offense when he's the QB.

And Pennington didn't suffer nearly the devastating dropped passes that Clemens did. I accept that my brain has (in an effort to protect itself) blocked out much of the '07 season, but I don't recall multiple dropped TD passes, nor any that were turned into picks. Even in his allegedly "solid" 2006 season he was already starting to be the awful QB he is now; that killer endzone pick against Indy after Miller got us back into the game, and getting shut out twice in the same season (not to mention the embarrassing playoff game against NE).

He's a head-case choke artist. Whatever calm nerves he may have had once have come and gone. You cannot possibly tell me you are in any way happy with Pennington QB'ing this team. He's the guy Mangini should go to if all else fails, not out of fear that all else will fail.

And I've said many times, almost verbatim, that if Clemens can't beat out this stiff, he doesn't deserve the job either. But to start the season with Pennington, given his zero upside and likelihood of only getting worse still (not to mention the likelihood he's just going to get injured anyway), he should have to totally blow Clemens out of the water this summer. If that happens, then Clemens is worse than Akili Smith & shouldn't be anywhere near the huddle in week one.

[nyjunc]

Chad didn't show any improvement either. We scored a total of 19 points in his last 3 games combined. Not to mention that he's gotten progressively worse since 2002 ended, so spare me the "history" of his success. It wasn't merely a bad spat in 2007. He's been steadily getting worse and worse. And I'm not talking stats. You must have watched the games; he looked pathetic and fully threw away no fewer than 3 games.

I don't hate the guy or anything. I just hate watching the Jets offense when he's the QB.

And Pennington didn't suffer nearly the devastating dropped passes that Clemens did. I accept that my brain has (in an effort to protect itself) blocked out much of the '07 season, but I don't recall multiple dropped TD passes, nor any that were turned into picks. Even in his allegedly "solid" 2006 season he was already starting to be the awful QB he is now; that killer endzone pick against Indy after Miller got us back into the game, and getting shut out twice in the same season (not to mention the embarrassing playoff game against NE).

He's a head-case choke artist. Whatever calm nerves he may have had once have come and gone. You cannot possibly tell me you are in any way happy with Pennington QB'ing this team. He's the guy Mangini should go to if all else fails, not out of fear that all else will fail.

And I've said many times, almost verbatim, that if Clemens can't beat out this stiff, he doesn't deserve the job either. But to start the season with Pennington, given his zero upside and likelihood of only getting worse still (not to mention the likelihood he's just going to get injured anyway), he should have to totally blow Clemens out of the water this summer. If that happens, then Clemens is worse than Akili Smith & shouldn't be anywhere near the huddle in week one.

Chad is a proven QB, he didn't need to show improvement the way Clemens did and Chad hasn't gotten progressively worse since 2002, he got hurt in 2003 then healthy again in 2004 was again near the league leaders in passing before he hurt his shoulder which ruined his career. Last year was the first healthy year of Chad's career that he stunk and we can all agree alot of that had to do w/ the awful OL and awful play around him. Chad deserves his share of the blame but w/ all the improvements we've made he will be alot better this year if given the chance.

Chad did suffer devestating dropped passes, against Buf, against the Giants, agianst Washington. All plays that could have helped us widen our leads and possibly win those games. You can blame McCareins all you want for Baltimore but if Clemens wasn't awful for 3 qtrs thta game wouldn't have been close.

In '06 that "killer" INT wasn't a killer, it was the asinine decision to go for it on 4th and G from the 3, it gave Indy a little better FP but we weren't scoring points anyway after Manguini decidied not to kick the FG and that was his FIRST RZ INT of his career.

He's a choke artist that has, outside of last year, led us to the playoffs every time he's been healthy. If he never hurt his shoulder he'd still be a top QB in this league but even after the injury he led us to 10-6 2 years ago w/ no running game, a medicore OL and a mediocore D. Against top teams you need more help than he has gotten, maybe he cannot do it even w/ a great supporting cast now but I'd like to find out if he beats out KC this summer.

You have something against our good teams from this decade for some reason, maybe you preferred the great times of '87-'96? I'm not sure why you hate everything about our teams from this decade?

[Flashlite80]

This is a comment that I quoted from "Dirtstar" from Jetsinsider.com. This is the most compelling and thought out "logical" reason why Clemens will be starting this year.

Here you go.

You wanted a legit debate, so here it is: Chad and Clemens both played under the same set of horrible circumstances in 2007 -- why is that those horrible conditions can excuse Chad's poor play as an 8-year veteran, but not Kellen's as a first-time starter? why is it unfair to criticize Chad for his horrible decision-making, but it's OK to pass judgement on Clemens after only 7 games? why can you criticize Clemens' pocket presence, even when you acknowledge he was running for his life, but fail to mention how poised he looked in the 4th quarter against the Ravens or throughout the Redskins game?

then you go on to say that Clemens' 3 wins should be dismissed on the assertion that the "defense actually won those games." while i will grant you that the defense improved after the Bye week, you also have to admit that Clemens never played with a healthy Coles/Cotchery tandem -- and you have said repeatedly how important offensive playmakers are to a QB's success, so i'm assuming that applies to Clemens as well as Chad.

back to the Jets' 3 wins with Clemens: NOT ONE POINT in those games was scored by the defense/special teams. in fact, the ONLY time that the Jets scored a non-offensive TD with Clemens as the QB was a kickoff return by Leon against the Redskins, a game which the Jets lost. so yeah, the defense may have improved, but someone still had to go out and put the points on the board. Kellen Clemens lead the Jets' offense to more victories and more points per game than Chad, despite the lack of the abovementioned playmakers (which, again, you say are very important to a QBs success).

Chad, on the other hand received very valuable contributions from the special teams/defense. the Jets' lone victory with Chad at the helm came against the Juggernaut Miami Dolphins, and he can thank a Leon Washington kickoff return for that one. Chad's offense also got help in the game against the Giants, from Kerry Rhodes (fumble return) and Leon again (kickoff return). alas, Chad also tossed TWO fourth-quarter interceptions, one of which was returned for a TD, that essentially put the game away. speaking of which, Chad also threw game-ending INTs against Buffalo and against the Bengals, and generally looked dreadful when running the 2-minute drill.

i find it curious that in this regard, the young inexperienced QB with a "lack of pocket presence" showed far more poise and success than the veteran Captain Intangibles. Clemens, however, lead two last-minute, game-tying drives against top-10 defenses (Wash, Pitt), and two OT game-winning drives. and that's without going into the Baltimore game or OT of the Washington game, because i'm trying to steer clear of the "what ifs."

so there you have it. you wanted a debate? the above is why i think that, given that they played under the same horrible QB conditions, and given that Clemens produced more wins, more PPG, and played better in clutch situations, there is a compelling case as to why Kellen Clemens should be the Jets starting QB in '08.

Excellent points. Chad also had more weapons at his disposal. Coles barely played in any game that Clemons started but played in all of Chad's games. Cotchery played with a broken finger, that led to a key drop that cost one victory. McCareins and Smith got no separation and drop numerous catchable balls costing at least one more victory. I don't know how good Clemons is . Nobody does. How do you judge a guy with no time to throw, no running game, his best receiver out and #2 receiver hurt? All I know is I saw two beautiful 50+ yard passes dropped right in to receivers. One was dropped by McCareins and the other was 60 yards in the air in perfect position and McCareins wasn't even open. I like Chad but the offense is anemic with him in there.

Ask yourself this, Brady and Peyton Manning were barely touched and looked great. How did the best look when they were under constant pressure? They looked alot worse. Name a QB, even a veteran, who was successful who was under anywhere near the amount of pressure Clemons was under. I worry about his pocket awareness, but for a first year starter, he showed flashes. Under the circumstances, what more could be asked?

I say, give Clemons a chance with an o-line, a good running attack and his top receivers healthy. Then we'll know.

[MasonJet]

:yawn:

SOS..Clemens won't even be #2 by the end of the year..face it, he blows

Wow, you make a solid fact-based argument. I am impressed with the way you refuted all the points made in that article.

[MasonJet]

Chad sucked in 2007 but has had better years. There were years like 2002 when Chad was great.

Kellen Clemens has not had any better years than last year. And he was mediocre at best. At worst he sucked s--t. And we can blame Adrien Clarke but the truth is amazing players excel regardless of their supporting cast, clemens isn't amazing.

so what we are left with are two manager types, neither superstar QBs, neither franchise QBs.

Chad's resume is better and the Jets are built to win now.

All this being said Kellen Clemens will get every chance to win the job, and he should win it.

But if he doesn't, I don't want to hear crap from the Clemens fan-boys. This guy embarassed the franchise on Thanksgiving national TV, he has what, 3 wins total? If he can't beat Chad out in a preseason training camp competition then he's worthless. As much as everyone hates Chad, that much must be agreed upon. If Chad is crap and Kellen can't beat out crap, what does that make Kellen?

So you've come to the decision that Clemens is a bad QB after what 7 or 8 games behind an atrocious o-line?

You Clemens haters crack me up when you say that it doesn't matter how shockingly bad the o-line is he should be able to do great anyway, even if his #2 receiver for several games was BRAD SMITH.

It's hilarious that you think that because he didn't put up Peyton Manning like numbers in the first few starts of his career with next to no supporting cast, he is therefore a bad QB and doesn't even deserve a chance to start with a solid o-line and supporting cast.

I'm sorry but that simply doesn't make any sense. Chad has reached his ceiling. We don't know what Clemens ceiling is and it's completely ridiculous to think you know what it is after last year.

[Sperm Edwards]

Chad is a proven QB, he didn't need to show improvement the way Clemens did and Chad hasn't gotten progressively worse since 2002, he got hurt in 2003 then healthy again in 2004 was again near the league leaders in passing before he hurt his shoulder which ruined his career. Last year was the first healthy year of Chad's career that he stunk and we can all agree alot of that had to do w/ the awful OL and awful play around him. Chad deserves his share of the blame but w/ all the improvements we've made he will be alot better this year if given the chance.

Chad did suffer devestating dropped passes, against Buf, against the Giants, agianst Washington. All plays that could have helped us widen our leads and possibly win those games. You can blame McCareins all you want for Baltimore but if Clemens wasn't awful for 3 qtrs thta game wouldn't have been close.

In '06 that "killer" INT wasn't a killer, it was the asinine decision to go for it on 4th and G from the 3, it gave Indy a little better FP but we weren't scoring points anyway after Manguini decidied not to kick the FG and that was his FIRST RZ INT of his career.

He's a choke artist that has, outside of last year, led us to the playoffs every time he's been healthy. If he never hurt his shoulder he'd still be a top QB in this league but even after the injury he led us to 10-6 2 years ago w/ no running game, a medicore OL and a mediocore D. Against top teams you need more help than he has gotten, maybe he cannot do it even w/ a great supporting cast now but I'd like to find out if he beats out KC this summer.

You have something against our good teams from this decade for some reason, maybe you preferred the great times of '87-'96? I'm not sure why you hate everything about our teams from this decade?

In 2002 he had an outstanding 75% of a season.

In 2003...injured; in his half season he was worse than in 2002.

In 2004 he was much worse than 2002 and was also worse than 2003 (except for one '03 Patriots game when his dumbass coach announced to the planet that Chad will be throwing downfield all game).

In 2005...injured.

In 2006 he was much worse than 2004, which was much worse than 2002.

In 2007 he was much worse than 2006, which was much worse than 2004, which was much worse than 2002.

Is that your idea of:

(a) getting better

( staying exactly the same

© getting worse

Even if he stays healthy, which is a longshot, he blows. If he played for any other team all we'd read here is about how crappy he is.

And that int vs the Colts was a killer and it was absolutely on Chad. Bad playcalling or not, if this "smart" QB is not smart enough to audible out of that after seeing what the defense was doing, then he brings nothing to the table, because he's not out there because of his wonderful right arm. He also could have thrown it away and pinned Indy at their 2 or wherever we were. Pretty sure we were inside the 5 but I'm not looking it up.

I am not interested in what he once was 6 seasons ago. Rich Gannon was the MVP 6 seasons ago. In 2004 he beat a bunch of chump teams & Pennington's sucky backup did at least as well as Pennington did. Who cares what he would have been "if he didn't hurt his shoulder" as you put it?

He chokes in games.

When he makes a bad play, it is obvious that he cannot get it out of his head.

Other than an outstanding stint in 2002, the Jets have carried Pennington. Either with a strong running game, a strong defense, or both.

And to bring up how lousy the Jets were in the late 80's/early 90's is exactly what losers do. They point to .500 records or barely-above .500 records and view them as triumphant successes while fans of other teams have aspirations of superbowls.

It's the same mentality that wanted Herm Edwards here for the next decade because the team's record wasn't as bad as it had been when the Jets were annual doormats prior to Parcells & his all-star coaching staff coming here.

[MasonJet]

Chad is a proven QB, he didn't need to show improvement the way Clemens did and Chad hasn't gotten progressively worse since 2002, he got hurt in 2003 then healthy again in 2004 was again near the league leaders in passing before he hurt his shoulder which ruined his career. Last year was the first healthy year of Chad's career that he stunk and we can all agree alot of that had to do w/ the awful OL and awful play around him. Chad deserves his share of the blame but w/ all the improvements we've made he will be alot better this year if given the chance.

Chad did suffer devestating dropped passes, against Buf, against the Giants, agianst Washington. All plays that could have helped us widen our leads and possibly win those games. You can blame McCareins all you want for Baltimore but if Clemens wasn't awful for 3 qtrs thta game wouldn't have been close.

You realize that was the FIRST START OF HIS CAREER right? What exactly were you expecting him to do? Play like John Elway?

The fact that he was able to make a 4th quarter comeback like he did in his first start is very impressive. In spite of his poor play in the first 3 quarters he was able to pull it together and lead the team on a comeback drive.

And you're damn right that I'll blame it on McCareins. He's an NFL wide reciever, he's supposed to make that catch. Clemens made a perfect throw and yet you're blaming him for not having a perfect game on the road in the first game of his career?

It seems like most of the people opposed to Clemens starting feel that way because he didn't play like John Elway in the first few starts of his career. Fact is Pennington had his best year 6 years ago, and it is time to move on. He is not a QB that is going to win the Super Bowl, he has proven that. I don't know if Clemens can, but I know that Pennington can't. There is absolutely no reason for Pennington to be the starter.

[Sperm Edwards]

You realize that was the FIRST START OF HIS CAREER right? What exactly were you expecting him to do? Play like John Elway?

The fact that he was able to make a 4th quarter comeback like he did in his first start is very impressive. In spite of his poor play in the first 3 quarters he was able to pull it together and lead the team on a comeback drive.

And you're damn right that I'll blame it on McCareins. He's an NFL wide reciever, he's supposed to make that catch. Clemens made a perfect throw and yet you're blaming him for not having a perfect game on the road in the first game of his career?

It seems like most of the people opposed to Clemens starting feel that way because he didn't play like John Elway in the first few starts of his career. Fact is Pennington had his best year 6 years ago, and it is time to move on. He is not a QB that is going to win the Super Bowl, he has proven that. I don't know if Clemens can, but I know that Pennington can't. There is absolutely no reason for Pennington to be the starter.

Actually, he played a lot like John Elway in the first several starts. Elway threw 7 TD's and 14 INT's in his first 10 starts and also sucked, completing only 47.5% of his passes. Clearly Denver should have stuck with Steve DeBerg, who "led them to the playoffs" that season with his 9:7 TD:INT ratio.

[Gainzo]

Chad is a proven QB, he didn't need to show improvement the way Clemens did and Chad hasn't gotten progressively worse since 2002, he got hurt in 2003 then healthy again in 2004 was again near the league leaders in passing before he hurt his shoulder which ruined his career. Last year was the first healthy year of Chad's career that he stunk and we can all agree alot of that had to do w/ the awful OL and awful play around him. Chad deserves his share of the blame but w/ all the improvements we've made he will be alot better this year if given the chance.

Chad has proven to be a choke artist. If you consider 16 TD's and 9 INT's to be near the league leaders in 2004 I would like to have what you are smoking.

[Sperm Edwards]

Chad has proven to be a choke artist. If you consider 16 TD's and 9 INT's to be near the league leaders in 2004 I would like to have what you are smoking.

I didn't even see that line. What was he near the league leader in that could make someone come to the conclusion that he was "near the league leaders in passing"?

#21 Completions (242)

#20 Passing Yards (2673)

#15 Yards Per Attempt (7.22)

#21 Passing Touchdowns (16)

#11 QB Rating (91.1 which was nowhere near the league leaders)

***BREAKTHROUGH -- A TOP 10 STAT***

#8 Completion %age - big whoop; if there's a stat out there that Brian Griese can lead the league in, and that mark end up being in the top-4 in NFL history, that stat is of limited importance to say the least. And lots of good it did; explain away how a player who is 8th in the league in completion percentage can be 15th in yards per attempt.

Oh, but he's "done it before" - ok. Done what - thrown the monumental total of 17 touchdown passes once in his career, and zero times from 2003 to the present?

How can any Jets fan actually desire that this player, with his accompanying history of low-scoring Jets offenses under his leadership, be the starting QB?

[BaumerJet]

This is a comment that I quoted from "Dirtstar" from Jetsinsider.com. This is the most compelling and thought out "logical" reason why Clemens will be starting this year.

Here you go.

You wanted a legit debate, so here it is: Chad and Clemens both played under the same set of horrible circumstances in 2007 -- why is that those horrible conditions can excuse Chad's poor play as an 8-year veteran, but not Kellen's as a first-time starter? why is it unfair to criticize Chad for his horrible decision-making, but it's OK to pass judgement on Clemens after only 7 games? why can you criticize Clemens' pocket presence, even when you acknowledge he was running for his life, but fail to mention how poised he looked in the 4th quarter against the Ravens or throughout the Redskins game?

then you go on to say that Clemens' 3 wins should be dismissed on the assertion that the "defense actually won those games." while i will grant you that the defense improved after the Bye week, you also have to admit that Clemens never played with a healthy Coles/Cotchery tandem -- and you have said repeatedly how important offensive playmakers are to a QB's success, so i'm assuming that applies to Clemens as well as Chad.

back to the Jets' 3 wins with Clemens: NOT ONE POINT in those games was scored by the defense/special teams. in fact, the ONLY time that the Jets scored a non-offensive TD with Clemens as the QB was a kickoff return by Leon against the Redskins, a game which the Jets lost. so yeah, the defense may have improved, but someone still had to go out and put the points on the board. Kellen Clemens lead the Jets' offense to more victories and more points per game than Chad, despite the lack of the abovementioned playmakers (which, again, you say are very important to a QBs success).

Chad, on the other hand received very valuable contributions from the special teams/defense. the Jets' lone victory with Chad at the helm came against the Juggernaut Miami Dolphins, and he can thank a Leon Washington kickoff return for that one. Chad's offense also got help in the game against the Giants, from Kerry Rhodes (fumble return) and Leon again (kickoff return). alas, Chad also tossed TWO fourth-quarter interceptions, one of which was returned for a TD, that essentially put the game away. speaking of which, Chad also threw game-ending INTs against Buffalo and against the Bengals, and generally looked dreadful when running the 2-minute drill.

i find it curious that in this regard, the young inexperienced QB with a "lack of pocket presence" showed far more poise and success than the veteran Captain Intangibles. Clemens, however, lead two last-minute, game-tying drives against top-10 defenses (Wash, Pitt), and two OT game-winning drives. and that's without going into the Baltimore game or OT of the Washington game, because i'm trying to steer clear of the "what ifs."

so there you have it. you wanted a debate? the above is why i think that, given that they played under the same horrible QB conditions, and given that Clemens produced more wins, more PPG, and played better in clutch situations, there is a compelling case as to why Kellen Clemens should be the Jets starting QB in '08.

Ok, then why did we draft the way we did?

[jetfuel]

I didn't even see that line. What was he near the league leader in that could make someone come to the conclusion that he was "near the league leaders in passing"?

#21 Completions (242)

#20 Passing Yards (2673)

#15 Yards Per Attempt (7.22)

#21 Passing Touchdowns (16)

#11 QB Rating (91.1 which was nowhere near the league leaders)

***BREAKTHROUGH -- A TOP 10 STAT***

#8 Completion %age - big whoop; if there's a stat out there that Brian Griese can lead the league in, and that mark end up being in the top-4 in NFL history, that stat is of limited importance to say the least. And lots of good it did; explain away how a player who is 8th in the league in completion percentage can be 15th in yards per attempt.

Oh, but he's "done it before" - ok. Done what - thrown the monumental total of 17 touchdown passes once in his career, and zero times from 2003 to the present?

How can any Jets fan actually desire that this player, with his accompanying history of low-scoring Jets offenses under his leadership, be the starting QB?

No, we should go with Kellen who has thrown a total of 5 TD passes and hasn't thrown more than one in a game (unless you count the preseason). Maybe it's the blank look in his eyes when he's moving out of the pocket that gives you confidence in him. Granted, he may be a good QB down the road, but why you'd be convinced he's the guy to go with on a team that just spent over $100 million in the offseason is beyond all logic. Say what you will about Chad but he knows how to win football games when he actually has a supporting cast. Brooks Bollinger gave me more confidence than Kellen did when he was in there. I hope he tears it up in camp and shows he is better than Chad but I have seen nothing yet that would even make me rate him higher than Browning Nagle.

[Sperm Edwards]

No, we should go with Kellen who has thrown a total of 5 TD passes and hasn't thrown more than one in a game (unless you count the preseason). Maybe it's the blank look in his eyes when he's moving out of the pocket that gives you confidence in him. Granted, he may be a good QB down the road, but why you'd be convinced he's the guy to go with on a team that just spent over $100 million in the offseason is beyond all logic. Say what you will about Chad but he knows how to win football games when he actually has a supporting cast. Brooks Bollinger gave me more confidence than Kellen did when he was in there. I hope he tears it up in camp and shows he is better than Chad but I have seen nothing yet that would even make me rate him higher than Browning Nagle.

That is nonsense. He blew how many leads last year with his 4th quarter interceptions? Or did his supporting cast throw those also?

I never said Clemens looked like anything special last year. Only thing I could say for certain was that he has a very strong arm & is mobile. He's entering his 3rd season. At that point in his career, Pennington was not deemed worthy of giving one NFL start to. Nor as a rookie when Vinny T led the NFL in picks.

But saying a player should be benched indefinitely because he had a poor TD:INT ratio in his first 8 career starts is ridiculous. If that's the attitude, never draft a QB because at least 95% of them are like that.

Carson Palmer's first 7 games, as a second-year player:

5 touchdowns, 10 interceptions. Do those numbers look at all familiar? And 4 of those games were against the Jets' 2nd half prevent defense (when he threw both of his TD's), the 4-12 Dolphins, the 4-12 Browns, and the 5-11 Titans.

So you would have kept Pennington in there instead of such less-than-instant successes (particularly through the first 7 games) as Palmer - as well as superbowl champs like Aikman, Elway, and Eli Manning among other household names. Because Chad has "proven" to be a "winner" in this league.

[Irish Jet]

That is nonsense. He blew how many leads last year with his 4th quarter interceptions? Or did his supporting cast throw those also?

I doubt he would have been in those positions had he had a decent supporting cast, in other words some thime to throw or any semblence of a running game.

[jetfuel]

That is nonsense. He blew how many leads last year with his 4th quarter interceptions? Or did his supporting cast throw those also?

I never said Clemens looked like anything special last year. Only thing I could say for certain was that he has a very strong arm & is mobile. He's entering his 3rd season. At that point in his career, Pennington was not deemed worthy of giving one NFL start to. Nor as a rookie when Vinny T led the NFL in picks.

But saying a player should be benched indefinitely because he had a poor TD:INT ratio in his first 8 career starts is ridiculous. If that's the attitude, never draft a QB because at least 95% of them are like that.

Carson Palmer's first 7 games, as a second-year player:

5 touchdowns, 10 interceptions. Do those numbers look at all familiar? And 4 of those games were against the Jets' 2nd half prevent defense (when he threw both of his TD's), the 4-12 Dolphins, the 4-12 Browns, and the 5-11 Titans.

So you would have kept Pennington in there instead of such less-than-instant successes (particularly through the first 7 games) as Palmer - as well as superbowl champs like Aikman, Elway, and Eli Manning among other household names. Because Chad has "proven" to be a "winner" in this league.

I never said he should be benched. All I've ever said is that there should be a battle for the spot. Clemens has done nothing to warrant having the team handed to him. Chad has proven he can win in this league - as well as lose. If Kellen proves that he can lead the team than I have no problem with having him be THE GUY. Let's see. I just don't like the idea of handing him the team just yet. Akili Smith had a strong arm and was mobile too. Let's see if Kellen is able to play in the league before we hand him anything. I'd rather have Chad's possible 9 or 10 win season (as Chad haters claim is his ceiling) than a possible 3 or 4 win season if Kellen plays at all like he did last year (if Chad plays like he did last year they may only win 2 so don't think I turned a blind eye to Chad's debacle in 07). I understand that a lot of guys started bad and went on to be very good if not great but a lot of guys start out bad because they suck too. Let's see how they both bounce back this year in camp. They have an OL with 4 1st rd picks, a pro bowl FB, a vet blocking TE, Keller, etc. and hopefully a D that can stop people this year. Now we can really see if Chad still has a run in him or if Kellen really is the man that should be leading the huddle. I'd just rather go with Chad if Kellen plays anything like he did last year. I know that Chad can battle adversity and put last year behind him. He's a lot more tough than Jets fans seem to want to give him credit for. That is also a key quality to have in your QB. I'm not sure yet what Clemens has but I'm willing to give him a chance to prove himself. I want him to succeed. It's a lot better moving forward with the younger guy in there for sure. I just want to see what he has first. Last year is a bad measuring stick for any QB. The O-Line blew, players got banged up, the D couldn't get off the field. This year is a clean slate now for both of them to me. I know Chad is a better QB than he showed last year. I think Kellen is better than that too. I'm looking forward to it.

[jetfuel]

I doubt he would have been in those positions had he had a decent supporting cast, in other words some thime to throw or any semblence of a running game.

Most of those late INT's were on some sort of quick out or WR screen that Clemens had problems with as well. They had some carbon copy INT's late in games. People seem to forget the late INT's Kellen threw in close games but that's okay. I'd actually like to go back and watch their INT's last year. I don't know if Chad and Kellen were forced to throw it too quick, the WR's were making the wrong cut or not adjusting to the blitz, the play should be thrown out of the playbook and banished forever, or if both of them (QB's) just made the same mistake each time. I'm just happy they will have time to make plays this year, whoever it is behind Center.

[Sperm Edwards]

I never said he should be benched. All I've ever said is that there should be a battle for the spot. Clemens has done nothing to warrant having the team handed to him. Chad has proven he can win in this league - as well as lose. If Kellen proves that he can lead the team than I have no problem with having him be THE GUY. Let's see. I just don't like the idea of handing him the team just yet. Akili Smith had a strong arm and was mobile too. Let's see if Kellen is able to play in the league before we hand him anything. I'd rather have Chad's possible 9 or 10 win season (as Chad haters claim is his ceiling) than a possible 3 or 4 win season if Kellen plays at all like he did last year (if Chad plays like he did last year they may only win 2 so don't think I turned a blind eye to Chad's debacle in 07). I understand that a lot of guys started bad and went on to be very good if not great but a lot of guys start out bad because they suck too. Let's see how they both bounce back this year in camp. They have an OL with 4 1st rd picks, a pro bowl FB, a vet blocking TE, Keller, etc. and hopefully a D that can stop people this year. Now we can really see if Chad still has a run in him or if Kellen really is the man that should be leading the huddle. I'd just rather go with Chad if Kellen plays anything like he did last year. I know that Chad can battle adversity and put last year behind him. He's a lot more tough than Jets fans seem to want to give him credit for. That is also a key quality to have in your QB. I'm not sure yet what Clemens has but I'm willing to give him a chance to prove himself. I want him to succeed. It's a lot better moving forward with the younger guy in there for sure. I just want to see what he has first. Last year is a bad measuring stick for any QB. The O-Line blew, players got banged up, the D couldn't get off the field. This year is a clean slate now for both of them to me. I know Chad is a better QB than he showed last year. I think Kellen is better than that too. I'm looking forward to it.

If Clemens plays like he did last year, no one wants him and have hardly taken that position. I'd rather go with Daunte Culpepper or Byron Leftwich than Pennington. He's a has-been who was a once-was in 2002, who still throws too many picks even with his low-risk/low-reward type of passes.