87 replies to this topic

[Smashmouth]

O rly? That's the big secret to Steeler success?

If you dont know by now that the Steelers draft very well and are one of, if not the best run organizations in football, then I dont know what to tell ya.

[SenorGato]

If you dont know by now that the Steelers draft very well and are one of, if not the best run organizations in football, then I dont know what to tell ya.

Oh, that's what I said? That's the point you were making? Why did I respond to you?

[SenorGato]

Patriots, Steelers, 90's Cowboys (almost all from Minnesota for Walker) to name a few. I am sure research would yield more.

....

Those teams were carried by their late picks? MAYBE the Pats, because their QB comes from that territory, but what in the hell are you people talking about? The same 90's Cowboys with Aikman (1:1 IIRC), Smith (1), Larry Allen (2nd), Irvin (1), Norton (2nd), Maynard (1:1), Charles Haley (a stud FA signing, sure from the 4th)...others...?

Of course that teams have FIFTY THREE players on a roster does mean that there will be 4-7 rounders on a roster...but really? What 4-7 crop carries any team anywhere?

[GangGreen25]

....

Those teams were carried by their late picks? MAYBE the Pats, because their QB comes from that territory, but what in the hell are you people talking about? The same 90's Cowboys with Aikman (1:1 IIRC), Smith (1), Larry Allen (2nd), Irvin (1), Norton (2nd), Maynard (1:1), Charles Haley (a stud FA signing, sure from the 4th)...others...?

Of course that teams have FIFTY THREE players on a roster does mean that there will be 4-7 rounders on a roster...but really? What 4-7 crop carries any team anywhere?

Championships are won with great teams not 7 players. I really find it hard to believe that basically saying the best teams win by building through the draft, not free agency is being debated. The reason the Jets are better today is becasue of there success in the draft in years past ie.. Mangold, Ferguson, Revis. And like I said with more research I could find many more examples. Like do we know for sure The Cowboys didn;t use mid round picks to move up to get some of those 2nd round picks. Not sayiing they did but its an example of another value of stockpiling picks.

[GangGreen25]

....

Those teams were carried by their late picks? MAYBE the Pats, because their QB comes from that territory, but what in the hell are you people talking about? The same 90's Cowboys with Aikman (1:1 IIRC), Smith (1), Larry Allen (2nd), Irvin (1), Norton (2nd), Maynard (1:1), Charles Haley (a stud FA signing, sure from the 4th)...others...?

Of course that teams have FIFTY THREE players on a roster does mean that there will be 4-7 rounders on a roster...but really? What 4-7 crop carries any team anywhere?

I never said a team was carried by picks 4-7 I said Championships TEAMS have been built by stockpiling mid round picks. Great special team players comefrom late picks including game changing return guys. Backups are mid round picks and in the NFL you better have some guys on the bench that can play. In the 2010 AFC Championship game the Steelers lost a center (and Pouncey is a good one) and a tackle and their offense didn't miss a beat. How do you think the Jets would fair in a game if Mangold and Ferguson were out by halftime????

[SenorGato]

I never said a team was carried by picks 4-7 I said Championships TEAMS have been built by stockpiling mid round picks. Great special team players comefrom late picks including game changing return guys. Backups are mid round picks and in the NFL you better have some guys on the bench that can play. In the 2010 AFC Championship game the Steelers lost a center (and Pouncey is a good one) and a tackle and their offense didn't miss a beat. How do you think the Jets would fair in a game if Mangold and Ferguson were out by halftime????

The Jets need a great OL more than the Steelers do because they rely less on running the ball than the Jets do. When you have a QB you can takes hits in performance from the non-QB spots and still cover it because you can still pass and score. Without Mangold and the D'Brick then the offense's backbone just lost their two best players. That's going to paralyze it. Without Pouncey and whoever the other guy was the Steelers lost two good players who's job it is to protect their best player, a 250 pound QB who's played without great pass protection for alot of his career. Important pieces sure, but that's different from the Jets losing Mangold, who is probably this team's best all around offensive player.

I really find it hard to believe that basically saying the best teams win by building through the draft, not free agency is being debated.

I find it extremely strange that you think that's what was said.

[GangGreen25]

The Jets need a great OL more than the Steelers do because they rely less on running the ball than the Jets do. When you have a QB you can takes hits in performance from the non-QB spots and still cover it because you can still pass and score. Without Mangold and the D'Brick then the offense's backbone just lost their two best players. That's going to paralyze it. Without Pouncey and whoever the other guy was the Steelers lost two good players who's job it is to protect their best player, a 250 pound QB who's played without great pass protection for alot of his career. Important pieces sure, but that's different from the Jets losing Mangold, who is probably this team's best all around offensive player.



I find it extremely strange that you think that's what was said.

Steelers ran for more yardage than the Jets last year and are consistantly in the top 10 in the NFL in rushing yardage. Yes in 2010 when we TRULY were ground and pound we had a great rushing year but the statistics don't support your argument that we are a running team and they are a passing team. But you are right with a QB like Ben, the toughest QB in the NFL to sack. He can hang in and make plays. But that's not what happened in that particular game. Mostly do to our lack of a bona fide pass rusher. And we are weak at safety and we need an inside linebacker to stop the run and if you are like me and fear Joe McKnight carrying the ball 150 times than we could benefit from a back up running back. Doesn't sound like the roster of an NFL team that has the luxery to trade picks for back up QBs.

I wrote the post, it wasn't spoken so I KNOW what I intended to convey. Teams build championships by stockpiling late round picks, I was specifically referring to the Patriots, most NFL fans know that is their M.O. You interpreted that as late round picks carry teams, not close to the same thing. It's the classic argument I had with teachers and professors of english all the time. In a novel I don't want to be told what the writer meant, I was to create my own interpretation based on my experiences. That is the fun of reading. It is also the fun in blogging.

[TechJet]

weeeelll ya dosent have to gets all bent outta shapes about it!

[Smashmouth]

Whats funny is when your a great running team at some point in the playoffs your going to face teams that shut down the run just like the steelers did to us 2 years ago. So if you rely on the run all year long and dont pass as much you are suddenly in trouble. When we talk about Elite QB's in the NFL all those teams do is throw all year long its much easier for them to score points on the better defenses and they probably have much more practice in those situations. So we run good all year like we did In Sanchez Rookie year then when we hit the brick wall we expect our QB to just turn it on and win us games in the playoffs and sorry but thats not the way it works. All that being Said Sanchez played pretty damn good both years in the playoffs and the defense did not nor did the running game when it counted. So at some point Ground and Pound will be stopped. This is not the NFL of 40 years ago now its all about loading teams down with talented skill players who can be a threat from anywhere on the field and the Jets do not have those type of players. Holmes can be that player but its now been proven hes not a number 1 WR and he cant do it alone if teams key on him which they did last year. if the Jets do not fix this it will be the same thing EVERY YEAR Sanchez or No Sanchez until they do fix it.

Edited by Smashmouth, 07 April 2012 - 10:58 AM.

[SenorGato]

Steelers ran for more yardage than the Jets last year and are consistantly in the top 10 in the NFL in rushing yardage. Yes in 2010 when we TRULY were ground and pound we had a great rushing year but the statistics don't support your argument that we are a running team and they are a passing team. But you are right with a QB like Ben, the toughest QB in the NFL to sack. He can hang in and make plays. But that's not what happened in that particular game. Mostly do to our lack of a bona fide pass rusher. And we are weak at safety and we need an inside linebacker to stop the run and if you are like me and fear Joe McKnight carrying the ball 150 times than we could benefit from a back up running back. Doesn't sound like the roster of an NFL team that has the luxery to trade picks for back up QBs.

I wrote the post, it wasn't spoken so I KNOW what I intended to convey. Teams build championships by stockpiling late round picks, I was specifically referring to the Patriots, most NFL fans know that is their M.O. You interpreted that as late round picks carry teams, not close to the same thing. It's the classic argument I had with teachers and professors of english all the time. In a novel I don't want to be told what the writer meant, I was to create my own interpretation based on my experiences. That is the fun of reading. It is also the fun in blogging.

Soooooo....not having one fourth round pick in a draft where the Jets have something like 6 picks on Day 3 is going to stop us from landing that beastly 4th round pass rusher, 5th round starting safety, 6 round starting ILB, and backup RB? We're hung out to dry because they're missing one 4th rounder? The 6 Day 3 picks are...not stockpiling picks? I was supposed to read your mind when you whined about the dreaded lack of late day picks? Do you not see the trend in teams you listed who do stockpile late round picks (hint: It has something to do with QBs)?

How many championships have the Pats built with their late round picks btw? They throw a ton of late round picks into their D and it's garbage for it. It misses first rounders like Richard Seymour and Ty Warren, and oddly enough their best players (Ward the safety, Wilfork, and Mayo) are 1st or early 2nd rounders....Crazy right?

[villain_the_foe]

I disagree, not because I'm in love with Sanchez. I think this extension will make it easier for the jets to cut him if he doesn't take this next step up this season. To me signing hunter was the worst thing they have done this off season. That and not getting super mario.

Thats exactly what the extension did. Anyone paying attention to prior posts here breaking down the extension would have understood that.

So I guess given your clarification it does make Tebow the worse decision this year! lol.

[GangGreen25]

Soooooo....not having one fourth round pick in a draft where the Jets have something like 6 picks on Day 3 is going to stop us from landing that beastly 4th round pass rusher, 5th round starting safety, 6 round starting ILB, and backup RB? We're hung out to dry because they're missing one 4th rounder? The 6 Day 3 picks are...not stockpiling picks? I was supposed to read your mind when you whined about the dreaded lack of late day picks? Do you not see the trend in teams you listed who do stockpile late round picks (hint: It has something to do with QBs)?

How many championships have the Pats built with their late round picks btw? They throw a ton of late round picks into their D and it's garbage for it. It misses first rounders like Richard Seymour and Ty Warren, and oddly enough their best players (Ward the safety, Wilfork, and Mayo) are 1st or early 2nd rounders....Crazy right?

I don't whine, and I general find when people soak a post with sarcasm it simply means they don't want to make any effort to understand the other persons point of view. I like to debate here because I hope to learn something and maybe someone will value my opinions, this conversation isn't offering either. But two last things, that horrible defense you speak of beat the tar out of us twice and played in ths Super Bowl, and we did not stockpile those picks they were compensation for free agent losses. That's different than collecting through trades which was how I used the term. And I am not sure at the time of my comment that compensation had been announced, but I may be wrong about that.

[SenorGato]

Soooo... We're not getting those guys in round 4-7 and now there's only one way to stockpile picks (comp picks don't count)? Mhmm

[Smashmouth]

I don't whine, and I general find when people soak a post with sarcasm it simply means they don't want to make any effort to understand the other persons point of view. I like to debate here because I hope to learn something and maybe someone will value my opinions, this conversation isn't offering either. But two last things, that horrible defense you speak of beat the tar out of us twice and played in ths Super Bowl, and we did not stockpile those picks they were compensation for free agent losses. That's different than collecting through trades which was how I used the term. And I am not sure at the time of my comment that compensation had been announced, but I may be wrong about that.

If I could give you more rep I would

[JiF]

Steelers ran for more yardage than the Jets last year and are consistantly in the top 10 in the NFL in rushing yardage. Yes in 2010 when we TRULY were ground and pound we had a great rushing year but the statistics don't support your argument that we are a running team and they are a passing team. But you are right with a QB like Ben, the toughest QB in the NFL to sack. He can hang in and make plays. But that's not what happened in that particular game. Mostly do to our lack of a bona fide pass rusher. And we are weak at safety and we need an inside linebacker to stop the run and if you are like me and fear Joe McKnight carrying the ball 150 times than we could benefit from a back up running back. Doesn't sound like the roster of an NFL team that has the luxery to trade picks for back up QBs.

I wrote the post, it wasn't spoken so I KNOW what I intended to convey. Teams build championships by stockpiling late round picks, I was specifically referring to the Patriots, most NFL fans know that is their M.O. You interpreted that as late round picks carry teams, not close to the same thing. It's the classic argument I had with teachers and professors of english all the time. In a novel I don't want to be told what the writer meant, I was to create my own interpretation based on my experiences. That is the fun of reading. It is also the fun in blogging.

This simply isnt true. At all.

To use your example, besides Tom Brady what mid round pick helped the Pats win those championships? Asante Samuel is the only one that comes to mind.

Otherwise, Seymour, Light, Wilfork, Brach, Graham, Wilson, Warren, Watson, Mankins - all 1st and 2nd round picks. And the rest were FA pick ups.

The Steelers kinda can say this. But not really any other teams. Most teams are built in the first 3 rounds and supplemented by FA.

[SenorGato]

^^ Yeah forgot to do the Pats. Their SB teams were loaded with first round picks and young veteran FA signings who improved with them (like Vrabel).

[GangGreen25]

This simply isnt true. At all.

To use your example, besides Tom Brady what mid round pick helped the Pats win those championships? Asante Samuel is the only one that comes to mind.

Otherwise, Seymour, Light, Wilfork, Brach, Graham, Wilson, Warren, Watson, Mankins - all 1st and 2nd round picks. And the rest were FA pick ups.

The Steelers kinda can say this. But not really any other teams. Most teams are built in the first 3 rounds and supplemented by FA.

I am not going to do all the research but feel free to if you would like, but have you left room for the possibility that at least on a few occasions The Pats traded up in those2nd rounds with mid round picks to get those players. I don't mind having a comment over analyzed but again the simple point I was trying to make was I don't like giving up draft picks for back up quarterbacks. Of course better players will come from 1st and 2nd rounds, seems too obvious to even state. But plenty of great players come from later round picks, including Hall of Famers. Bottom line Pats do like to collect late round picks and they have won championships. Wayne Chrebet and Bart Scott were undrafted, Cotchery a 4th rounder, Jim Leonard undrafted free agent, it's easy to pick out a few names to defend a position.

[GangGreen25]

This simply isnt true. At all.

To use your example, besides Tom Brady what mid round pick helped the Pats win those championships? Asante Samuel is the only one that comes to mind.

Otherwise, Seymour, Light, Wilfork, Brach, Graham, Wilson, Warren, Watson, Mankins - all 1st and 2nd round picks. And the rest were FA pick ups.

The Steelers kinda can say this. But not really any other teams. Most teams are built in the first 3 rounds and supplemented by FA.

And to eliminate Brady from the equation is like eliminating Joe Montana from the 49ers a late 3rd round pick.

[SenorGato]

I am not going to do all the research

You don't seem to have done any research?

[SenorGato]

And to eliminate Brady from the equation is like eliminating Joe Montana from the 49ers a late 3rd round pick.

And too eliminate the othe what...10 guys there is intelligent because if warped around a little (again) it might help your point? There's arguably three other HOFers there with Seymour, Wilfork, and Mankins....all first rounders.

No one is denying that good players can be found later in the draft. Sheer numbers pretty much dictate that that will happen...Great teams will have those guys...they'll also have vet FAs who were already good...good vet FAs who improved on their second team...theyll still be be carried by their best players, which will typically be drafted long before the 4th and of course the QB.

Edited by SenorGato, 08 April 2012 - 02:17 PM.