Coaches or Players?

[Lupz27]

What is more important? Obviously they both are important, but which is MORE important? I tend to think that coaches are much more important. My reasoning for this is that I think that the talent level in the NFL for the most part is relatively comparable. Every player in the NFL is immensely talented. Yes, some are more talented than others, but I think top coaches can get the most out of their players whether it is through teaching or motivation or both.

 

When I look at 96 vs 97, there was not a big roster turnover, yet one team went 1-15 and the other was 9-7 and was a boneheaded playcall from being 10-6 and in the playoffs, the difference was the coaching staff.

 

Im curious to get others take on this. I think that to have a true franchise QB, you have to develop him. That means either drafting one very high, or getting lucky, but either way they need to be developed properly. As much as I hate Belicheck, you have to give him credit for the way Brady was developed. Early on they relied very little on him, and put him in perfect situations to succeed, until he became what he is now.

 

I choose C, a slightly different version of players.  It's all about the QB, remove the coaches, and I'll bet the same QB's rise to the top, there are a few cases where you can make an argument where a coach created a QB like A Rodgers, or D Brees, but for the most part QB's are all that matter in this league, you either have an elite one, or you don't their is no in between.  Yes any given year some coach can pull a Hoosiers, but to win year in year out you need an elite QB plain, and simple.

[Jacked4JetsFB]

I choose C, a slightly different version of players.  It's all about the QB, remove the coaches, and I'll bet the same QB's rise to the top, there are a few cases where you can make an argument where a coach created a QB like A Rodgers, or D Brees, but for the most part QB's are all that matter in this league, you either have an elite one, or you don't their is no in between.  Yes any given year some coach can pull a Hoosiers, but to win year in year out you need an elite QB plain, and simple.

 

I vividly remember watching an interview with Vinny and he talked about how he was never taught the right way to use film to prepare for his opponents, and how his confidence was shattered early on. He said not until he got to Cleveland with Belicheck did he ever really learn how to properly prepare, and then he got some confidence. The QB position is so damn complicated, there is so much going on every play, and so many things can go wrong on every single play. I tend to believe that the right coaches can develop the right players, and I also believe that QB's can be flat out ruined. I think O'Brien was ruined and could have been much better. There probably are some guys who would be great regardless of coach, like a P Manning, there are a ton of guys who will suck regardless of coach, but I do think good coaching can develop a good QB, and I think bad coaching can destroy a potentially good QB.

[New York Mick]

Players

I always compare the NFL to cooking you can be the best chef in the world but if I give you Spam you're limited in what you can cook now if you're an average chef and I give you Kobe beef the dish will sort it self out.

You can't win or make a great dish without the proper ingredient.

[New York Mick]

Oh and for the recorded I'm ******* hammered

[Jacked4JetsFB]

Players

I always compare the NFL to cooking you can be the best chef in the world but if I give you Spam you're limited in what you can cook now if you're an average chef and I give you Kobe beef the dish will sort it self out.

You can't win or make a great dish without the proper ingredient.

Interesting, while I agree to an extent, I will assure you that a good chef will do better with less than a bad chef will, and the good chef will do even better with good ingredients than a bad chef.

[Jacked4JetsFB]

Oh and for the recorded I'm ******* hammered

haha, wish I was!

[jetsjetsjetss]

give me drew brees and calvin johnson and u can give me schotty as head coach

[Larz]

when manning went to denver, he said we're running my offense, and they said kk

 

players

[Integrity28]

You are bringing this upon yourself.

 

For the record, you did not say Sporano sucks, you said Sporano plus Sanchez sucks. Sanchez plus anyone would suck, so that does not equal Sporano sucking. I only picked this up because I have such good reading skilz  

 

 

No, this argument is sound. 

 

Schotty + Sanchez = sucks.

 

Sporano + Sanchez = sucks.

 

Morninwheg + Sanchez = sucks.

 

Players are more important. A bad player will always sink a good coach, however a bad coach can be overcome by a good player (see: Schotty + Favre).

 

When you have a bad coach AND a bad player, you have a nightmare. Which is where we've been the past 4 years.

 

Anyone with a 3rd grade reading level could have deduced that the statement in bold red clearly conveys that I feel that we've had the combination of bad coaches and a bad QB for the past 4 years. Meaning I feel all of Schotty, Sporano and Sanchez suck. 

 

Want to go back to arguing about your reading comprehension skills? You trolled your own thread topic (which I was at least responding to) into an outright exhibition of your own FAIL.

 

All you are doing is serving me up meatball pitches.

[Integrity28]

LOL, glad you proved your point, and I failed to, glad we settled that in-between your brain surgery. Lets get this clear dude, you were the one who started the reading comprehension nonsense. I fully understood what you were saying, I just disagree with it. This was meant to be a discussion, and I don't think you or anyone else can Prove anything other than offer opinions. You offer your opinions as fact, like a real clown. I want no arguments, only discussion, but when you pass your opinions as facts like a clown, picking and choosing which parts of my entire post to answer, than accuse me of not reading, you have what we have here spanky.

 

For the record, considering a HC is often paid far more than a GM, the NFL seems to think that coaches are are pretty important, since the GM's pick the players not the coaches. If coaches were not important, and all that mattered was players, the guys responsible for bringing the players in would make much more money than the GM's since all the GM has to do is bring in good players and anyone could coach them.

 

Done yet?

 

You didn't disagree, and you didn't try to discuss. You started right away on cherry-picking parts of my very easy to understand posts, and regurgitating them back at me telling my argument was flawed. When you exhibit a clear inability to comprehend simple points, but feel entitled to attack other people's logic - then yes, you are going to get criticized for not reading and/or comprehending. Deal with it next time by reading closer, rather than trying to shoot down everyone's response without fully understanding them.

 

I didn't come in this thread to argue, and when you told me my argument was flawed I tried to better articulate it for you - for that I got insults from you. Every other person who responded to you responded to the question players or coaches. You are only nitpicking with me over ignoring the developing players part of your original post because, as I said, you are hellbent on trying to prove I also didn't read.

 

Like I said, I chose to ignore that part - and answered the more prevalent questions in your OP. Like everyone else. YOu've taken your own thread off-topic because you are butthurt. All you are doing is talking in circles, and when people make a point you can't counter - you shift the argument. Like a moving target. It is petty, and transparent.

 

Case in point, here again you've shifted the argument now to GM vs. Coaches? Your ******* quesiton was "players or coaches?" Which matters more, and like I've said, you couldn't back up the argument that coaches are in comparison to players, so now you are comparing coaches to GM, and their respective salaries. That is what people do here, when they are losing their own damn argument.

 

I'm not sure you've done it intentionally, and I've promised some people I wouldn't get overly obnoxious on the boards here. I just have to assume you are completely oblivious to how bad you've failed in this thread. 

 

STFU now eh?

[Gastineau Lives]

I literally cannot wait til the next thread in which Integrity and this guy disagree on something. Please make this an ongoing thing.

[Bleedin Green]

A team with players can win without a coach.  A team with a coach can't win without players.

 

The former would undoubtedly be a sh*t-show to start, but if an NFL team was structured this way, it would be sorted out, at least to an extent, over the course of time and you'd have players start stepping up and also doing the jobs of the coaches (and to certain extents, you already see that throughout the league).  Under no set of circumstances is there anything that a set of coaches could do to fill in for a lack of players.  Of course this is taking things to extreme levels of absurdity, but it's simply a matter of painting the picture.  Players may be worse off without their coaches, but coaches are useless without their players.

[Integrity28]

I literally cannot wait til the next thread in which Integrity and this guy disagree on something. Please make this an ongoing thing.

 

If it were mere disagreement, I'd understand... this guy asked an "A or B" question, everything I've said has been black and white. I honestly have no idea if he's trolling me, or really just this clueless.

[Gastineau Lives]

If it were mere disagreement, I'd understand... this guy asked an "A or B" question, everything I've said has been black and white. I honestly have no idea if he's trolling me, or really just this clueless.

The latter.

[JoeKlecko]

Coaches get fired frequently because a good coach makes 1 mil a bad QB like Sanchez makes 10 mil. Per year. It's way easier to fire the coach. You do have a point with Sparano however, he was grossly incompetent. If a coach is grossly incompetent, it is a problem. Paul Hackett was like this too. Brian Schotty actually is a decent OC. Nothing special and he has his flaws but he's competent.  I don't believe Rex is incompentent, in fact he's the most creative defensive mind in the game today.

 

Jets fans in general were spoiled by that one year where Parcells had Belly and other high quality coaches on the staff (Mangini, Romeo, Weiss, Groh, Haley, Dan henning etc). if you have a staff that good a coach can make chicken salad out of chicken s--t. But that doesn't happen often. Or ever again, probably. 

 

Schotty is NOT competent imo.  I'm not gonna spend the time to list all the reasons, but he sucks.  Rex at least is a creative defensive mind, but is incompetent as a HC.

[RSJ]

Players.  

 

Case in point, the New England Patriots.  Bill Belichick before Brady, a career loser.  Since Brady, GOAT.

 

There was actually a documentary on the Cleveland Browns on NFL Network recently. You should try and catch it. Belicheck had that team on the verge of being serious contenders until the rug was pulled out from under him. They were 3-1 and in first place when the team announced they were moving. Then the wheels fell off. The year before they beat Parcells Patriots in the playoffs. Also, BB went 11-5 with Matt Cassell. I hate the guy too - but he is a damn good football coach.

[RSJ]

I think its a mixture. A good football coach can recognize talent and put them into positions to succeed. So a good football coach needs talent - but he also needs to know what to do with it.

[SenorGato]

Uh oh, you must have teh reading compruhunshun problums too.

 

What're you talking about?

[SenorGato]

There was actually a documentary on the Cleveland Browns on NFL Network recently. You should try and catch it. Belicheck had that team on the verge of being serious contenders until the rug was pulled out from under him. They were 3-1 and in first place when the team announced they were moving. Then the wheels fell off. The year before they beat Parcells Patriots in the playoffs. Also, BB went 11-5 with Matt Cassell. I hate the guy too - but he is a damn good football coach.

 

Bill Belichick is the best football coach since Walsh, hands down.

[JoeKlecko]

No.

 

Sanchez doesn't have the the pocket awareness, arm talent or leadership skills of Flacco. Guys don't suddenly get those things when they arrive in the league from coaches, 90% of the influence coaches have is teaching the system to the players, understanding who does what well and designing ways to use those players. Fundamental skills like arm talent should already be established by the time a QB hits the NFL.

 

Sanchez never had MVP QB potential. His ceiling what higher than what we've gotten from him, but not as high as any top 15 QB.

 

Flacco played damn-near perfect football in the post-season last year. Sanchez had the luxury of having one system, one coordinator for his first 3 years and got worse each year. That's in part on the coach, for not getting anything out of the player, but it's mostly on the player... for sucking. 

 

We usually agree, but I have to somewhat disagree with this post.  I agree that fundamentals should be solid by the time players join the NFL and I think they used to be to a greater extent, but the reality now is that they often aren't.  We see it in players not being good blockers, not being adept at picking up blitzers, supposed pass rushers only having one move, defensive players being such shoddy tacklers, DL rising too high following the snap and not playing with leverage, DBs who are awkward in their backpedal, WRs who can't run good routes, and QBs who play in mickey mouse offensive systems in college and are totally unprepared to play in the NFL.  For this reason, I disagree with your assertion that 90% of what coaches do in the NFL is teach players the systems.  I believe that quite the opposite is true.  They in fact spend much of their time teaching players fundamentals

 

The blame for this goes solely on Middle School, High School and college coaches imo.  Many of them don't know proper techniques and fundamentals.  Many more who do refuse to mess with fundamentals of their star players because they're very good as they are and they're afraid the players will struggle, not be as good and as a result their teams won't do as well.  They care more about themselves and their own careers than they do the players they coach.

 

How is Geno supposed to be adept at taking snaps from under center, surveying the field while dropping back, being adept with his footwork on the various drops and timings of the WCO, when over 90% of the snaps he took in college were in the shotgun?  Further, the WCO is a more complex offensive system.  Unless you've played in that system in college or high school, there's no way you'd have the basic fundamentals required for that system.

 

I agree that Sanchez was never a topflight QB prospect, but I think he possibly could have been much better with better coaching.  Having Cavanaugh and Schotty for three years was hardly a luxury.  I can't believe you even said that.  I think that Matt Cavanaugh, if not THE worst QB Coach in the NFL, is certainly one of them.  I also think that Schotty is one of the worst OCs in the league.  He never tailored the system to fit what Sanchez could do well and to hide what he couldn't.  Numerous former NFL QBs like Warner, Dilfer, Steve Young have pointed out flaws in Sanchez' fundamentals that were never addressed.  From overly complex system that didn't fit his players, to play design, to play calling, to multiple other issues, Schotty sucks.  I wasn't a fan of Sanchez and didn't want the team to draft him, but he showed enough promise early on, that with proper coaching and handling, I think he could have developed into at least a decent, if not a  solid starting QB.  Some players,the topflight ones can play well in any system, but many others In order to play well, must be relaxed and confident both in themselves, the system in which they're playing, the game plan, and their knowledge of their responsibilities,  Schotty's game plans frequently sucked and when things didn't work, he was glacially slow to adjust if he adjusted at all.  

 

Sanchez was not the putz at USC or his first couple of years that he is now.  The only logical reason for that and his lost confidence is the way in which he has been handled and treated (mistreated actually).  Rex has no clue how to handle a QB.  From the color-coded cards to asking him to just manage the games (which doesn't fit his persona or skill set), to constantly pounding into him "don't screw up!", they created a shell-shocked, nervous player, who can't relax and just go out and play.  He's afraid of making mistakes, which of course causes him to make mistakes.

 

I think you're right that he doesn't have the arm talent.  He's never been a particularly accurate QB.  I think pocket awareness, which is akin to poise, is tied to confidence level, and the way he's been handled, he's never been fully confident, except perhaps his first year or two.  I think a couple of other thing that work against him are that he isn't the sharpest pencil in the box and he's too soft mentally.  He's just not a quick learner and needed more time and coaching than the Jets could or would give him.  I think that's why so many of the "experts" said that he needed to sit for at least a year, if not two upon his entering the NFL.  He also has allowed things to get to him and erode his confidence.  He was a QB who never should have been started as a rookie, especially on a team with SB expectations.

[JiFtheOracle]

There was actually a documentary on the Cleveland Browns on NFL Network recently. You should try and catch it. Belicheck had that team on the verge of being serious contenders until the rug was pulled out from under him. They were 3-1 and in first place when the team announced they were moving. Then the wheels fell off. The year before they beat Parcells Patriots in the playoffs. Also, BB went 11-5 with Matt Cassell. I hate the guy too - but he is a damn good football coach.

 

I saw it.  It was interesting and a total stretch.  He was what, 41-55 before Brady?  And something retarded since.

 

I'm not saying BB isnt a great coach, he is.  But Brady made him what he is today.  

 

Matt Cassell also had a 10 win season with Todd Haley in KC.  

[RSJ]

I saw it.  It was interesting and a total stretch.  He was what, 41-55 before Brady?  And something retarded since.

 

I'm not saying BB isnt a great coach, he is.  But Brady made him what he is today.  

 

Matt Cassell also had a 10 win season with Todd Haley in KC.  

 

You cant look at the total record. Look at where he was the last year (before the move). 

 

Belicheck will win long after Brady is gone.

 

Who picked and developed Matt Cassell? It really goes back to the coaching vs talent discussion. Good coaches need talent - but good coaches can recognize talent to begin with. You cant be a good coach and unable to recognize talent.

[JiFtheOracle]

You cant look at the total record. Look at where he was the last year (before the move). 

 

Belicheck will win long after Brady is gone.

 

Who picked and developed Matt Cassell? It really goes back to the coaching vs talent discussion. Good coaches need talent - but good coaches can recognize talent to begin with. You cant be a good coach and unable to recognize talent.

 

Huh?  Why cant I look at the total record?  I have 4 seasons to look at before the move.  3 losing, 1 winning, followed by a losing.  He then went to New England, took over an 8-8 team and won 5 games and its not like he was ushering a new QB any of those years, he had veterans and had 1 winning season in his 6 years of coaching before Brady.  

 

Are we really going to debate Matt Cassell's development?  lulza  

 

Players play.  Coaches coach. And BB didnt have a very successful head coaching career prior to Tom Brady.  In fact, he was a loser. 

[ZachEY]

If Sparano was actually good, you might be able to use this argument. I actually think Sparano was much worse than Schotty. Sanchez is horrible, but that does not excuse how bad Sparano was.

 

Have you noticed that for more than a decade we've had "terrible" offensive coordinators?  Do you think this is coincidence?

[Matt39]

Sparano had no idea what he was doing. Hackett refused to install the shotgun. They were both very bad OC's.

[RSJ]

Huh?  Why cant I look at the total record?  I have 4 seasons to look at before the move.  3 losing, 1 winning, followed by a losing.  He then went to New England, took over an 8-8 team and won 5 games and its not like he was ushering a new QB any of those years, he had veterans and had 1 winning season in his 6 years of coaching before Brady.  

 

Are we really going to debate Matt Cassell's development?  lulza  

 

Players play.  Coaches coach. And BB didnt have a very successful head coaching career prior to Tom Brady.  In fact, he was a loser. 

 

You can't just look at the record, especially in the case of Belicheck and the Browns.The Browns record was on the upswing each year until the move was announced. A lot of people in the national media were picking them to go to the Super Bowl that year. He built a very good team. If you take out the last season in Cleveland, he was around .500. His records increased each year after taking over a 3-13 team.

 

As far as his time in New England goes, you can't blame the guy for winning Super Bowls with the guy he drafted. lol

 

We will have to wait and see. I'm going to bet that Belicheck will be successful long after Brady retires.

[JiFtheOracle]

You can't just look at the record, especially in the case of Belicheck and the Browns.The Browns record was on the upswing each year until the move was announced. A lot of people in the national media were picking them to go to the Super Bowl that year. He built a very good team. If you take out the last season in Cleveland, he was around .500. His records increased each year after taking over a 3-13 team.

 

As far as his time in New England goes, you can't blame the guy for winning Super Bowls with the guy he drafted. lol

 

We will have to wait and see. I'm going to bet that Belicheck will be successful long after Brady retires.

 

Yes.  I can absolutely look at the record because thats what coaches are judged on.  You can give me every hypothetical you want, but the bottom line is, prior to Tom Brady, BB was a loser HC Period.  No question about it.  The fact are the facts.  He was a loser.  

 

He stumbled upon a 7th round pick who he was forced to play because his starter almost died on the playing field.  If you want to give him credit for that pick, fair enough, he clearly didnt know what he had or he'd been starting from day 1.

 

We shall see what comes of BB after Brady.  I wouldnt be the least bit surprised to see him retire.  And if he doesnt, you're right, he might be successful because he's a good coach.  As successful as he was with Brady?  I highly doubt it. 

[Jacked4JetsFB]

Have you noticed that for more than a decade we've had "terrible" offensive coordinators?  Do you think this is coincidence?

 

I don't know, do you? I think bringing in Hackett and his WCO to a team built around Vinny was insanely stupid. Vinny was the prototypical downfield passer. Even when Hackett got his QB in Pennington, he still was horrible IMO. I actually thought Schotty did a great job in 2006, and was a big part of the reason we made the playoffs that year, but after 2006 I thought he was bad and completely failed to adjust to how the rest of the league caught on to his offensive system. Sporano IMO was just flat out awful, and grossly incompetent. I see your point, we have not had good QB play in 10 years, and I agree with that. I think the organization as a hole has been very defensive focussed since Parcells left. Herm, Mangini and Rex have all been defensive guys, and IF we do get rid of Rex, I pray we bring in an offensive guy who can evaluate and develop a QB and a real offense for once.

[Jacked4JetsFB]

Yes.  I can absolutely look at the record because thats what coaches are judged on.  You can give me every hypothetical you want, but the bottom line is, prior to Tom Brady, BB was a loser HC Period.  No question about it.  The fact are the facts.  He was a loser.  

 

He stumbled upon a 7th round pick who he was forced to play because his starter almost died on the playing field.  If you want to give him credit for that pick, fair enough, he clearly didnt know what he had or he'd been starting from day 1.

 

We shall see what comes of BB after Brady.  I wouldnt be the least bit surprised to see him retire.  And if he doesnt, you're right, he might be successful because he's a good coach.  As successful as he was with Brady?  I highly doubt it. 

I believe BB is as much a part of Bradys success as Brady is a part of BB success. It takes two to tango. Brady threw a great screen his first 3 years, that was about it. Weiss and BB developed a great offense around a very solid defense and the best screen game in football. You also cannot throw out what the Pats did with Cassel, and how bad Cassel has been without the Pats.

[Jacked4JetsFB]

You didn't disagree, and you didn't try to discuss. You started right away on cherry-picking parts of my very easy to understand posts, and regurgitating them back at me telling my argument was flawed. When you exhibit a clear inability to comprehend simple points, but feel entitled to attack other people's logic - then yes, you are going to get criticized for not reading and/or comprehending. Deal with it next time by reading closer, rather than trying to shoot down everyone's response without fully understanding them.

 

I didn't come in this thread to argue, and when you told me my argument was flawed I tried to better articulate it for you - for that I got insults from you. Every other person who responded to you responded to the question players or coaches. You are only nitpicking with me over ignoring the developing players part of your original post because, as I said, you are hellbent on trying to prove I also didn't read.

 

Like I said, I chose to ignore that part - and answered the more prevalent questions in your OP. Like everyone else. YOu've taken your own thread off-topic because you are butthurt. All you are doing is talking in circles, and when people make a point you can't counter - you shift the argument. Like a moving target. It is petty, and transparent.

 

Case in point, here again you've shifted the argument now to GM vs. Coaches? Your ******* quesiton was "players or coaches?" Which matters more, and like I've said, you couldn't back up the argument that coaches are in comparison to players, so now you are comparing coaches to GM, and their respective salaries. That is what people do here, when they are losing their own damn argument.

 

I'm not sure you've done it intentionally, and I've promised some people I wouldn't get overly obnoxious on the boards here. I just have to assume you are completely oblivious to how bad you've failed in this thread. 

 

STFU now eh?

Your a clown, plain and simple. You say one thing, claim you said something else, than get your panties in a wad when you are called out on it. Then you claim you are done, and keep on going. You pass your opinions off as fact, than cry like a little baby when you get called out.

[Jacked4JetsFB]

A team with players can win without a coach.  A team with a coach can't win without players.

 

The former would undoubtedly be a sh*t-show to start, but if an NFL team was structured this way, it would be sorted out, at least to an extent, over the course of time and you'd have players start stepping up and also doing the jobs of the coaches (and to certain extents, you already see that throughout the league).  Under no set of circumstances is there anything that a set of coaches could do to fill in for a lack of players.  Of course this is taking things to extreme levels of absurdity, but it's simply a matter of painting the picture.  Players may be worse off without their coaches, but coaches are useless without their players.

For the most part I agree with this, however we are looking at both ends of the extreme here as you mention.

 

There also have been examples of new coaches taking almost the same team and having vastly different results as a different coach, and Players who have had vastly different success levels (both good and bad) with different coaching staffs. 

[JiFtheOracle]

I believe BB is as much a part of Bradys success as Brady is a part of BB success. It takes two to tango. Brady threw a great screen his first 3 years, that was about it. Weiss and BB developed a great offense around a very solid defense and the best screen game in football. You also cannot throw out what the Pats did with Cassel, and how bad Cassel has been without the Pats.

 

Brady threw for 28 TD's in his first full season, he could do much more than just throw screens, he's always been accurate, always made good decisions and has always put the ball in a spot the receiver can make a play.

 

I'd argue that Weiss did more with Brady than BB.  BB was always the defensive guy.  

 

I can throw out what Cassell did.  He took over the best offense the league has ever seen.  And he went on to win 10 games with the Chiefs.  Take a guess who the Offensive Coordinator was.

 

BB is a great coach.  I question what his career would be if Mo Lewis hadnt almost killed Drew Bledsoe because prior to that moment, he was a failure. 

[MexiRoll6]

So why then do coaches get fired so frequently? Why was Sparano fired and not re-hired as an OC this year with so many openings for OC jobs this year? Why do we care so much about Rex being our coach if its all about the players? Do we only care about the coaches personality? Is that why we hated Mangini and love Rex? Im really just trying to make sense of this stuff.

Speak for yourself Jacked I can't stand Rex personally. I think he is a buffoon HC, who understands little about the most rudimentary aspects of the game. Puts Sanchez in there in the 4th quarter of a meaningless pre-season game AFTER Geno looks like crap. Coaches coach and players play, but Ryan is NO coach.

[Integrity28]

Your a clown, plain and simple. You say one thing, claim you said something else, than get your panties in a wad when you are called out on it. Then you claim you are done, and keep on going. You pass your opinions off as fact, than cry like a little baby when you get called out.

 

LMFAO

 

Crack baby.

[RSJ]

Brady threw for 28 TD's in his first full season, he could do much more than just throw screens, he's always been accurate, always made good decisions and has always put the ball in a spot the receiver can make a play.

 

I'd argue that Weiss did more with Brady than BB.  BB was always the defensive guy.  

 

I can throw out what Cassell did.  He took over the best offense the league has ever seen.  And he went on to win 10 games with the Chiefs.  Take a guess who the Offensive Coordinator was.

 

BB is a great coach.  I question what his career would be if Mo Lewis hadnt almost killed Drew Bledsoe because prior to that moment, he was a failure. 

 

BB was a special teams coordinator and he was an assistant head coach with the Jets. He is much more then just a defensive guy.

 

He would still be a HOF coach without Brady. He went to the playoffs with Testeverde and Cassell. There is no doubt he would have won a super bowl with of without Brady.

 

Not taking into consideration the cleveland move is just ignorant.