Rex Ryan's pros outweigh his cons.

[Sperm Edwards]

abso****inglutely. 

 

That Rex did what he did with sanchez is reason enough alone to give him an opportunity with a real QB.  Hope Geno is that but we will have more up and down play from Geno as he is a rookie. I was talking with my buddy yesterday and I told him that if the Jets are stupid enough to cut Rex without that opportunity I hope he goes to the Bucs.  After Schiano is done running them into the ground they will be in prime position to draft a franchise QB and have plenty of peices in place already on their roster. Maybe then the Bucs wont be blacked out on TV for home games.  I sure will enjoy watching them, do they have PSLs too?

 

Anyone who doesn't think Geno Smith has a 4 TD game coming soon is kidding himself.  

 

Rex has horrible judgment of QBs, and that's too important of a position to have sucky judgment at when the team doesn't have a sure thing already in there.  If Smith develops into what we all hope, then this issue will resolve itself.

 

I'd love to see Rex tee off on other teams' 1-dimensional offenses due to a Jets offense that routinely scores 25-30 points per game (and 35+ here and there).  If I never see another Sanchez-led loss, when the defense gives up 10 pts or less, it'll be too soon.  When a defense surrenders 15 or less the team's winning percentage should hover around .900 or so (ideally we should never lose one, but that is unrealistic).  In Rex's first 4 years that was still an adventure.

[T0mShane]

Mangini was never good at coaching anything. If he was a top coordinator or a top college coach prior to his gig as our HC, then he might have gotten more benefit. He was also an unbelievable douchebag of a person while he was here (a trait that he continued with in Cleveland). He also was Woody's scapegoat for missing the playoffs after his favorite GM worked so hard to get Brett Favre here (not to mention how much was spent on other top-dollar FAs).

Wouldn't surprise me, since the Jets were awful last year and the 2nd half of the prior year. Meanwhile I'm quite sure that stat doesn't take into account how good a team was, but rather their record at the time. For example, I remember we beat Indy last year and they finished 11-5 (11-4 in their non-Jets matchups). But somehow it doesn't count because they were 2-2 at the time.

The unfortunate reality is (assuming no amount of money was going to get Peyton Manning here) last year we should have drafted Wilson and then cut Sanchez instead of extending Sanchez and signing Tebow. This is what happens when your GM has neither played nor coached nor been a scout at any level, but instead worked his way up from being an intern with the Pittsfield Mets after law school or some sh*t like that.

I'm now realizing that it appears I've been glorifying the Tannenbaum-Mangini Era, which wasn't my intent. I'm using it to point out that Tannenbaum relied heavily on his coaches for personnel evaluation, and it's not likely that he changed that method when Rex took over. I just take exception to this idea that Rex bears no responsibility for the state of the roster. Tannenbaum's history forbids it.

[T0mShane]

Remove the development part and you're not that far off. I don't find it surprising (or even noteworthy) that as a former DL coach and DC, Ryan teaches technique to his DL guys but doesn't really get into it much with his QBs & receivers and leaves it to others who know better (or who he thinks know better or who he inherited and was forced to retain).

You think Sean Peyton is (and has been) teaching technique to his DBs? Fat freaking chance. And if he was then he's been doing a pretty crappy job of it for some time now. And since no one else has done a great job of it one might even say he's been IGNORING that whole part of his team. And he gave up a 2nd round pick for Jeremy Shockey! (He's their GM, right?). Meanwhile the Saints got Drew Brees locked in for $10M/year for 6 years when the league was unsure if his shoulder would be the same again, and somehow that makes him some great overall coach on both sides of the ball plus special teams. He pays attention to one side of the ball and to the outside observer he has been derelict in his duties otherwise (like most HC's seem to be). Except for the whole bounty thing with his defense; that part of his defense he was in on. Class act. Again, swap Sanchez & Brees for years on end, and then tell me who's a winner and who sucks.

Ryan has OBVIOUS flaws. Thing is so do other coaches, including SB winners, if you choose to (or bother to) look. But those guys tend to have money QBs, and it isn't a subtle difference.

All good points, and it's unfortunate that Rex got stuck with Sanchez, but what coach doesn't look better with a Hall of Fame QB under center? Bruce Coslet looked like a genius when Boomer Esiason was in his prime, and the loathed Mangini was 8-3 and a Super Bowl favorite with a healthy Favre.

[Sperm Edwards]

As I've stated all along, he gets a significant share of credit for the successes, and a significant amount of blame for the failures.

 

A lot of the issue (or so I think) is that like a lot of player's coaches, he is the eternal optimist.  He sees what he wants to see until those peoples' failures bludgeon him over the head with their suckiness a hundred times and repeatedly piss into his big mouth.  I do give him credit for being a faster learner than he's been in firing Sparano.  The old Rex would have kept him around for 3 years, saying what a tremendous job he's doing.  

 

My hope with him, based on his ability to strategize and outsmart other smart people, is that he therefore is smart enough to learn to get better.  Whether he will or not is what will determine if he will just be a good DC or if he becomes something more.

 

Also if Idzik is competent and Rex is therefore mostly hands-off with the draft (except when Idzik wants an extended opinion on defensive front-seven types), and if he has a top-notch OC (which it so far seems we have), then I believe he can coach the Jets into a winner.  

 

The time management stuff, frankly, should be easier.  If it's a pride thing with the clock/timeout management, put a new Dick Curl guy in the booth so no one has to see Rex consulting with him in front of the TV camera.  Clearly someone upstairs is not yelling "DO NOT CHALLENGE THIS PLAY! IF YOU WANT TO TAKE A TIMEOUT TO REGROUP THEN JUST CALL A TIMEOUT!" loudly enough.  

 

Frankly, it is my opinion that there is enough time in any offseason for Rex to have someone compile all the timeouts and all the challenges made from every team for the past 5 years, and for Rex to spend 1-2 weeks straight going over each one of them in extreme detail (with some clock management "guru") so this stuff becomes 2nd nature to him.

[Sperm Edwards]

All good points, and it's unfortunate that Rex got stuck with Sanchez, but what coach doesn't look better with a Hall of Fame QB under center? Bruce Coslet looked like a genius when Boomer Esiason was in his prime, and the loathed Mangini was 8-3 and a Super Bowl favorite with a healthy Favre.

 

Yet you just see red when you see Rex despite knowing this about coaches who are handed great QBs and knowing that Rex was handed Mark Sanchez (with or without his enthusiastic blessing doesn't matter; Rex is no GM).

[nj meadowlands]

Anyone who doesn't think Geno Smith has a 4 TD game coming soon is kidding himself.  

 

Rex has horrible judgment of QBs, and that's too important of a position to have sucky judgment at when the team doesn't have a sure thing already in there.  If Smith develops into what we all hope, then this issue will resolve itself.

 

I'd love to see Rex tee off on other teams' 1-dimensional offenses due to a Jets offense that routinely scores 25-30 points per game (and 35+ here and there).  If I never see another Sanchez-led loss, when the defense gives up 10 pts or less, it'll be too soon.  When a defense surrenders 15 or less the team's winning percentage should hover around .900 or so (ideally we should never lose one, but that is unrealistic).  In Rex's first 4 years that was still an adventure.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

wow, SE- are you that high on Geno?

[#27TheDominator]

I'm now realizing that it appears I've been glorifying the Tannenbaum-Mangini Era, which wasn't my intent. I'm using it to point out that Tannenbaum relied heavily on his coaches for personnel evaluation, and it's not likely that he changed that method when Rex took over. I just take exception to this idea that Rex bears no responsibility for the state of the roster. Tannenbaum's history forbids it.

 

Nice, but what does that have to do with what Rex SHOULD be doing?  If that was Tannenbaum's downfall, then why blame Rex?  To the extent a GM relied on Rex for advice regarding the offense, that GM is an idiot.  Don't blame Rex. 

[Lizard King]

wow, SE- are you that high on Geno?

 

I think it's just a likely outcome no matter how high you are on the guy. They toss the ball around like hot potato now. Things will break open and one day it'll come.

[kay_gee]

Nice, but what does that have to do with what Rex SHOULD be doing? If that was Tannenbaum's downfall, then why blame Rex? To the extent a GM relied on Rex for advice regarding the offense, that GM is an idiot. Don't blame Rex.

I tend to agree with this POV. Rex might have had way too much influence over Tannenbaum's moves, but that's on Tannenbaum since that's his job and he is theoretically the superior in that situation.

[Jetsfan80]

All good points, and it's unfortunate that Rex got stuck with Sanchez, but what coach doesn't look better with a Hall of Fame QB under center? Bruce Coslet looked like a genius when Boomer Esiason was in his prime, and the loathed Mangini was 8-3 and a Super Bowl favorite with a healthy Favre.

 

Thing is, Rex looked good for nearly 3 seasons with Mark Sanchez.  Almost 0 other NFL HC's could pull that off.  Give Rex AVERAGE QB play (which he now seems like he might get out of Geno) that can sometimes be really good, and we WILL win a Super Bowl with Rex.  Period. 

 

And if your ONLY response to this point is "Well, Rex loved Sanchez derp" I will strangle you.

[Sperm Edwards]

wow, SE- are you that high on Geno?

 

Actually I meant to write 4 INT, not 4 TD.  

[Jetsfan80]

Actually I meant to write 4 INT, not 4 TD.  

 

Saints game is the most likely candidate.  Unless the D plays incredibly well we'll likely be throwing a lot in an effort to play catchup most of the game, and we'd be facing a Rob Ryan defense.

[#27TheDominator]

I tend to agree with this POV. Rex might have had way too much influence over Tannenbaum's moves, but that's on Tannenbaum since that's his job and he is theoretically the superior in that situation.

 

 

Stop sucking up.  I'm not going to buy you a pocketbook. 

[kay_gee]

Stop sucking up. I'm not going to buy you a pocketbook.

ok.

you're one of the people who makes "don't iron clothes while wearing them" warnings necessary.

...better?

[#27TheDominator]

ok.

you're one of the people who makes "don't iron clothes while wearing them" warnings necessary.

...better?

 

 

Silence foul temptress!  Go Rex!

[T0mShane]

I'm going to happily respond to the following because you all were good enough to continue a good convo, but if it's all the same to you guys, I'd like to call a truce on this topic. If there's a theme developing, it's that many of you are hopeful that Rex is set to do something in the future, and I don't want to sh*t on anyone's optimism. I prefer to exert my douchiness in conversations regarding interpretations of past events, but I'm not enough of an ass to argue against your hopes for the future.

 

 

A lot of the issue (or so I think) is that like a lot of player's coaches, he is the eternal optimist.  He sees what he wants to see until those peoples' failures bludgeon him over the head with their suckiness a hundred times and repeatedly piss into his big mouth.  I do give him credit for being a faster learner than he's been in firing Sparano.  The old Rex would have kept him around for 3 years, saying what a tremendous job he's doing.  

 

My hope with him, based on his ability to strategize and outsmart other smart people, is that he therefore is smart enough to learn to get better.  Whether he will or not is what will determine if he will just be a good DC or if he becomes something more.

 

Also if Idzik is competent and Rex is therefore mostly hands-off with the draft (except when Idzik wants an extended opinion on defensive front-seven types), and if he has a top-notch OC (which it so far seems we have), then I believe he can coach the Jets into a winner.  

 

The time management stuff, frankly, should be easier.  If it's a pride thing with the clock/timeout management, put a new Dick Curl guy in the booth so no one has to see Rex consulting with him in front of the TV camera.  Clearly someone upstairs is not yelling "DO NOT CHALLENGE THIS PLAY! IF YOU WANT TO TAKE A TIMEOUT TO REGROUP THEN JUST CALL A TIMEOUT!" loudly enough.  

 

Frankly, it is my opinion that there is enough time in any offseason for Rex to have someone compile all the timeouts and all the challenges made from every team for the past 5 years, and for Rex to spend 1-2 weeks straight going over each one of them in extreme detail (with some clock management "guru") so this stuff becomes 2nd nature to him.

 

My issue here is the same as it was with Herm--how long do you want to give him? I've been encouraged by his apparent willingness to adapt to Idzik's closed-mouth philosophy, and by his overall carriage so far. My favorite moment of the season so far was when he pulled Dee Milliner out of the Pats game--it showed a real willingness to hold a player accountable, and we haven't really seen that before now. I hope that continues. However, he still has issues with the clock five years in, and his overall game management has been lacking through three games. If Lavonte David doesn't push Geno out of bounds in Week One, the story would have been Rex not calling a timeout after Martin's last carry, which burned about 20 seconds, and how Mornhinweg had to run down the sidelines to get Rex to call the TO. I agree with your earlier point (where you cited Sean Payton) that no coach is a master at all facets of running every piece of a football team, but I don't think we can point to anything other than coordinating a defense where Rex is even passable at this point. He's not interfering with the O, we're advocating hiring a game-managing assistant coach, he's been soft on players in need of discipline, and he's had a blind loyalty to players that have actively lost him games. That's quite a list of items to fix. Unless we believe that his defense will carry the team through another 2010-style playoff run sometime soon (despite the declining returns the past two years), I don't see the value in waiting on him to become a complete coach. 

 

 

Yet you just see red when you see Rex despite knowing this about coaches who are handed great QBs and knowing that Rex was handed Mark Sanchez (with or without his enthusiastic blessing doesn't matter; Rex is no GM).

 

To reiterate from above, I think Rex has shown enough weaknesses across to board to merit moving on from him, even given the Sanchez Factor. Could Peyton Manning have masked some of Rex's blind spots? Sure. But until Geno Smith becomes Peyton Manning, we'd be spinning our wheels while waiting for Rex to work on a laundry list of personal failings.

 

Nice, but what does that have to do with what Rex SHOULD be doing?  If that was Tannenbaum's downfall, then why blame Rex?  To the extent a GM relied on Rex for advice regarding the offense, that GM is an idiot.  Don't blame Rex. 

 

 

This is an interesting angle, and speaks to something that Jay Glazer said on Francesa's Sunday football show last week. Glazer (while speaking of Rob Ryan being reined in by Sean Payton), said that the "Ryan Brothers" can't be given too much rope because they'll hang themselves. I thought it was an interesting comment. Idzik seems the type of personality to control Rex, but the question will be, does Idzik want to work that hard and take that risk? I don't think Rex has exactly dazzled anyone with his coaching so far, all things considered. Obviously, every week is going to be an audition tape for Rex. If penalties and clock blunders keep popping up, and sh*tty quarterbacks are taking their team down the field in the fourth quarter to erase Jets leads (combined with potentially getting pasted by Matt Ryan and Drew Brees, etc), then it's not going to be much of a decision process for Idzik.

 

I tend to agree with this POV. Rex might have had way too much influence over Tannenbaum's moves, but that's on Tannenbaum since that's his job and he is theoretically the superior in that situation.

 

Rex is still going to have to be an active participant in player evaluation, even if he's not given a final vote in the selection process, and he's going to have to do a better job of developing the talent given to him. No player drafted under Rex Ryan and his staff has so much as made the Pro Bowl, which is unconscionable for a player's coach who is allegedly a great teacher of the game.

 

 

Thing is, Rex looked good for nearly 3 seasons with Mark Sanchez.  Almost 0 other NFL HC's could pull that off.  Give Rex AVERAGE QB play (which he now seems like he might get out of Geno) that can sometimes be really good, and we WILL win a Super Bowl with Rex.  Period. 

 

And if your ONLY response to this point is "Well, Rex loved Sanchez derp" I will strangle you.

 

 

What in Rex's history makes you want to give him another quarterback to develop? Say what you will about Sanchez, but his development couldn't have been handled worse than it was. The best case scenario is that Rex stays 500 yards away from Geno at all times, and Geno develops into Matt Schaub(?) under Marty Mornhinweg. Shouldn't we aspire to a bit more than that?

[T0mShane]

Actually I meant to write 4 INT, not 4 TD.  

 

 

Saints game is the most likely candidate.  Unless the D plays incredibly well we'll likely be throwing a lot in an effort to play catchup most of the game, and we'd be facing a Rob Ryan defense.

 

 

Haters.

[Jetsfan80]

What in Rex's history makes you want to give him another quarterback to develop? Say what you will about Sanchez, but his development couldn't have been handled worse than it was. The best case scenario is that Rex stays 500 yards away from Geno at all times, and Geno develops into Matt Schaub(?) under Marty Mornhinweg. Shouldn't we aspire to a bit more than that?

 

What in Mark Sanchez's skillset suggests he could ever be coached to be anything more than he is?  If he ends up a backup QB for Andy Reid or Jim Harbaugh and ends up showing promise, I'll eat crow.  But Sanchez simply sucks and always will suck.  Rex SHOULD have used his powers to influence Mike Tannenbaum to get rid of the kid after the 2011 season, or at least say NO to re-signing him to an extension.  That's Rex's biggest stain on his record in my book.

 

Geno already appears to be coming along nicely 3 games in.  It's obviously too early to tell and Mornhinweg is likely playing a major role, but you can't help but like what you've seen out of the kid so far.  He seems to be exactly the type of QB this team needs:  Good and athletic enough to make plays when needed, smart enough to throw the ball away when he needs to.  And we all thought he was too raw to start Week 1. 

 

How Geno does over the course of the season will likely be the # 1 factor in whether Idzik keeps Rex around.  All the other stuff is basically fluff.

[Sperm Edwards]

I'm going to happily respond to the following because you all were good enough to continue a good convo, but if it's all the same to you guys, I'd like to call a truce on this topic. If there's a theme developing, it's that many of you are hopeful that Rex is set to do something in the future, and I don't want to sh*t on anyone's optimism. I prefer to exert my douchiness in conversations regarding interpretations of past events, but I'm not enough of an ass to argue against your hopes for the future.

 

 

 

My issue here is the same as it was with Herm--how long do you want to give him? I've been encouraged by his apparent willingness to adapt to Idzik's closed-mouth philosophy, and by his overall carriage so far. My favorite moment of the season so far was when he pulled Dee Milliner out of the Pats game--it showed a real willingness to hold a player accountable, and we haven't really seen that before now. I hope that continues. However, he still has issues with the clock five years in, and his overall game management has been lacking through three games. If Lavonte David doesn't push Geno out of bounds in Week One, the story would have been Rex not calling a timeout after Martin's last carry, which burned about 20 seconds, and how Mornhinweg had to run down the sidelines to get Rex to call the TO. I agree with your earlier point (where you cited Sean Payton) that no coach is a master at all facets of running every piece of a football team, but I don't think we can point to anything other than coordinating a defense where Rex is even passable at this point. He's not interfering with the O, we're advocating hiring a game-managing assistant coach, he's been soft on players in need of discipline, and he's had a blind loyalty to players that have actively lost him games. That's quite a list of items to fix. Unless we believe that his defense will carry the team through another 2010-style playoff run sometime soon (despite the declining returns the past two years), I don't see the value in waiting on him to become a complete coach. 

 

 

 

To reiterate from above, I think Rex has shown enough weaknesses across to board to merit moving on from him, even given the Sanchez Factor. Could Peyton Manning have masked some of Rex's blind spots? Sure. But until Geno Smith becomes Peyton Manning, we'd be spinning our wheels while waiting for Rex to work on a laundry list of personal failings.

 

 

 

This is an interesting angle, and speaks to something that Jay Glazer said on Francesa's Sunday football show last week. Glazer (while speaking of Rob Ryan being reined in by Sean Payton), said that the "Ryan Brothers" can't be given too much rope because they'll hang themselves. I thought it was an interesting comment. Idzik seems the type of personality to control Rex, but the question will be, does Idzik want to work that hard and take that risk? I don't think Rex has exactly dazzled anyone with his coaching so far, all things considered. Obviously, every week is going to be an audition tape for Rex. If penalties and clock blunders keep popping up, and sh*tty quarterbacks are taking their team down the field in the fourth quarter to erase Jets leads (combined with potentially getting pasted by Matt Ryan and Drew Brees, etc), then it's not going to be much of a decision process for Idzik.

 

 

Rex is still going to have to be an active participant in player evaluation, even if he's not given a final vote in the selection process, and he's going to have to do a better job of developing the talent given to him. No player drafted under Rex Ryan and his staff has so much as made the Pro Bowl, which is unconscionable for a player's coach who is allegedly a great teacher of the game.

 

 

 

 

What in Rex's history makes you want to give him another quarterback to develop? Say what you will about Sanchez, but his development couldn't have been handled worse than it was. The best case scenario is that Rex stays 500 yards away from Geno at all times, and Geno develops into Matt Schaub(?) under Marty Mornhinweg. Shouldn't we aspire to a bit more than that?

 

Why not just say, "I'd like to offer a truce.  But first I'd like to get the last word in to everyone," since that's what you really meant?

 

I think you are making a massive assumption, that what you see on the field - particularly on defense - would look the same as with someone else, minus the parts of the game where you don't like his game management.  It's a flawed assumption.

 

This team today was widely assumed to be a 3-6 win team on paper.  People assumed that it was designed to be a throw-away season, not merely to rid the team of its bad contracts, but to also be bad enough so Idzik could justify firing Rex and bring in someone else.  Now that 2 of the first 3 are in the bag, and there is a good chance that will be exceeded, instead of crediting Rex for doing better than anyone expected it will somehow be Rex's fault they were only a 7-9 win team and not a 10+ win team.  Moving of goalposts is a weak way to argue.  I expect that more from others.  

 

If this team ends 8-8 with this group I'd say he did a fantastic job, warts and all, and should be back next season (which he's already under contract to be).  As far as an extension beyond that, I can't say; it depends on the manner in which the season - particularly the 2nd half of the season - went.  The team doesn't only have coaches, it also has players.  The standing majority of players like and respect Rex and will want him to return (especially after a "successful" season).  Fire him just so Idzik can bring in his own guy, especially one who has no head coaching experience himself, could result in a pretty bad implosion.  It is not the same as firing Dungy to replace him with Gruden (the object of your affection), as Gruden had already had success in Oakland (though not as much as Ryan has had, despite having a stud QB at his best).  Plus everyone who wasn't blinded by a singular trait of Dungy's knew that he was keeping an obvious championship-level team out of the superbowl. 

 

And yes, I do believe that his defense is enough to carry us to a championship with a merely above-average (even if not elite) offense, managed by an efficient QB capable of putting the team on his back.  Ryan has not had this except for an unusual game here or there from Sanchez.  That exact same team we had in 2009 (or 2010), I believe that an above-average (yet not elite) QB at worst gets us into the superbowl.  An elite one makes it a slam dunk.

 

Your pro bowl comment, no offense, is just stupid.  First off, Wilkerson is at or beyond a pro bowl level.  The fact that fans and fellow players barely know his name is not a knock on Wilkerson. Rather it's a focus on fantasy football where stats get the notoriety and great overall play gets ignored.  Also, no matter how many times you bring it up, Ryan is not and has not been the GM.  So unless you think someone else would take his draft picks (a limited bunch at that, thanks to Tannenbaum), and turn Mark Sanchez and Shonn Greene and Vladimir Ducasse into stars at their respective positions, it's a weak argument at best. I've seen him make scrubs and castaways into valued players (Pouha, DeVito, and Snacks immediately come to mind).  Or is it to his discredit that the Jets had high-priced players at a lot of these positions and if they were replaced at all then Tannenbaum replaced them with the likes of Brodney Pool and Wayne Hunter and Matt Slauson?  

 

I think you are severely underplaying how a mistake-prone QB magnifies every criticism you'd have of any coach.  I would not trade an overall massive downgrade in half the football team for a couple of in-game gaffes, no matter how infuriating they are.  I believe that is what we'd get.  

 

What to do after this season?

 

6-10 the only way he gets the benefit of the doubt to come back for 1 more season is if literally half the starters - the GOOD ones - get injured before October is done.  

 

7-9 I think you have to look far beyond the record itself even though that's better than everyone thought it would be, yourself included I'd wager.  

 

8-8 I'd most likely bring him back but not necessarily extend him (also depending on circumstances).  

 

9-7, with this squad, you're going to have a tough time explaining to me that he didn't do a great job, worthy of a 2 year extension.

 

Beyond that isn't happening except in a dream.  If it does, by some miracle, I think you sense that I don't think he should be fired.  I think what I've outlined is fair.

[whodeawhodat]

It seems like every year, Rex accepts the blame and comes up with things he needs to better as a HC.  As long as he keeps moving forward with getting better as a HC I say we grow with him.  I think he has what it takes.

[Sperm Edwards]

It seems like every year, Rex accepts the blame and comes up with things he needs to better as a HC.  As long as he keeps moving forward with getting better as a HC I say we grow with him.  I think he has what it takes.

 

I used to say of Herm, give him a competent OC, a competent DC, Westhoff, a clock management coach, and a GM who knows how to draft & sign FAs wisely, and what do I care if his title is head coach or head fool? The list is the same as most coaches, except for most don't need a clock management coach.  Well with Rex I swap that and DC, particularly since one is a hell of a lot easier to find than the other.  Plus Rex is better than a "competent" DC on top of that.  And I just like the guy.

 

That being said, if we finish with 5-7 wins (or less) and Rex's buffoonery is the cause of multiple losses this year then he should go and bring in fresh blood.

[Jetsfan80]

I used to say of Herm, give him a competent OC, a competent DC, Westhoff, a clock management coach, and a GM who knows how to draft & sign FAs wisely, and what do I care if his title is head coach or head fool? The list is the same as most coaches, except for most don't need a clock management coach.  Well with Rex I swap that and DC, particularly since one is a hell of a lot easier to find than the other.  Plus Rex is better than a "competent" DC on top of that.  And I just like the guy.

 

I'd throw in a new tattoo also.

[Scott Dierking]

Why not just say, "I'd like to offer a truce.  But first I'd like to get the last word in to everyone," since that's what you really meant?

 

I think you are making a massive assumption, that what you see on the field - particularly on defense - would look the same as with someone else, minus the parts of the game where you don't like his game management.  It's a flawed assumption.

 

 

Why not just say " I think you are making a massive assumption....", and then go ahead and make massive assumptions yourself?

[whodeawhodat]

I used to say of Herm, give him a competent OC, a competent DC, Westhoff, a clock management coach, and a GM who knows how to draft & sign FAs wisely, and what do I care if his title is head coach or head fool? The list is the same as most coaches, except for most don't need a clock management coach.  Well with Rex I swap that and DC, particularly since one is a hell of a lot easier to find than the other.  Plus Rex is better than a "competent" DC on top of that.  And I just like the guy.

 

That being said, if we finish with 5-7 wins (or less) and Rex's buffoonery is the cause of multiple losses this year then he should go and bring in fresh blood.

 

I think people dont really think about how big the jump is from DC to HC.  It is not even close to going from a positional coach to a coordinator gig.  At least with that you are still working with your bread and butter on the same side of the ball.  HC, not only do you have half that game that you have spent your life on and (hopefully) mastered.  Now you have the other side of the ball to oversee/run.  This doesnt even take into account all of the nuances on being the one solely responsible for your team and steering the ship.  I dont have the football knowledge to even guess at what all goes into being a HC vs coordinator but that "laundry list" has got to be 10x the size of the shortcomings that we put on Rex. When you hire a first time HC I think you accept that they will be learning OTJ.  Rex has stated that he has a lot to learn and I would like to go for the ride with him. 

[Jetsfan80]

Why not just say " I think you are making a massive assumption....", and then go ahead and make massive assumptions yourself?

 

Sperm's assumption doesn't require much of a leap of faith.  Rex's defenses have had tons of success regardless of personnel.  Of this there can be no denial.  Seriously, is there a better defensive mind in the NFL today?  I'd love to hear this argument.

[Jetsfan80]

I think people dont really think about how big the jump is from DC to HC.  It is not even close to going from a positional coach to a coordinator gig.  At least with that you are still working with your bread and butter on the same side of the ball.  HC, not only do you have half that game that you have spent your life on and (hopefully) mastered.  Now you have the other side of the ball to oversee/run.  This doesnt even take into account all of the nuances on being the one solely responsible for your team and steering the ship.  I dont have the football knowledge to even guess at what all goes into being a HC vs coordinator but that "laundry list" has got to be 10x the size of the shortcomings that we put on Rex. When you hire a first time HC I think you accept that they will be learning OTJ.  Rex has stated that he has a lot to learn and I would like to go for the ride with him. 

 

Fantastic post.  We're so used to giving up on Head Coaches quickly we don't recognize that they DO develop over time.  For once we should give this one a chance because he at least has mastery over ONE side of the ball.  Plus he has the respect of his players.  Meanwhile, Herm and Mangini  were totally clueless about anything a HC has to do, in different ways.  Herm was a moron from an X's and O's standpoint and wasn't detail-oriented.  Mangini was an a$$hole who alienated his players.

[Sperm Edwards]

Why not just say " I think you are making a massive assumption....", and then go ahead and make massive assumptions yourself?

 

My assumption is not that massive.  I think he believes that, and others as well.  I think it's convenient to say, "Oh look at our front 7. Everyone would be great with them," as though Rex doesn't teach & harp over technique in extreme detail with each DLman on the team.  Particularly draft picks and other newcomers.

 

When someone says, "He's a good DC," and leaves it at that, I believe it is a reasonable assumption.  No one who gives these halfhearted compliments finishes it with, "I think we're better off with someone else but concede we could be giving up another [4 or 10 or however many] more points per game on defense with that someone else."

 

Given the ample opportunity to make this simple point, it is reasonable to assume it is not believed since it was never said.

[Sperm Edwards]

I think people dont really think about how big the jump is from DC to HC.  It is not even close to going from a positional coach to a coordinator gig.  At least with that you are still working with your bread and butter on the same side of the ball.  HC, not only do you have half that game that you have spent your life on and (hopefully) mastered.  Now you have the other side of the ball to oversee/run.  This doesnt even take into account all of the nuances on being the one solely responsible for your team and steering the ship.  I dont have the football knowledge to even guess at what all goes into being a HC vs coordinator but that "laundry list" has got to be 10x the size of the shortcomings that we put on Rex. When you hire a first time HC I think you accept that they will be learning OTJ.  Rex has stated that he has a lot to learn and I would like to go for the ride with him. 

 

To credit the Rex-sucks crowd, I don't really agree.  I just think it's a different skill set.  A HC job is more organization and hiring the right underlings (who share a common philosophy) and trusting that person to do their thing.  It's cleaner that way.  They can focus on the game at hand more.  A HC who is more involved in each playcall (on either side of the ball) is more easily distracted.  

 

I just think it's easier to find another assistant (call him a clock management coach or whatever) than it is to find someone else as good on one side of the ball.  Not impossible, as I don't think Rex should be brought back no matter what (so long as the D is top 10).  But it's not that easy.  If it was possible to have Rex demoted to DC and someone else hired as HC, I'd be fine with it.  I don't think that is possible, and doubt anyone seriously thinks it is, so it's either Rex as the Jets' HC or Rex as an ex-Jet coach.

 

If there was a HC who would take a demotion to DC and stay with the team, and be ok with it, I'd say it would be Rex.  He is Mr. Self-Deprecating and actually could picture him saying, at a press conference, "Ya know I just love this team and want to be a part of it and I know what I am as a defensive coach but maybe I'm just missing something as the head coach.  Woody & John & [the new HC] offered me this job to stay and even though I know I could find a job as a DC or even as a HC elsewhere, I want to be around to help finish what we started here." Some blather like that.  I think it's unlikely to happen, but thinking about it now, it's not the most far-fetched thing I can imagine.

[whodeawhodat]

To credit the Rex-sucks crowd, I don't really agree.  I just think it's a different skill set.  A HC job is more organization and hiring the right underlings (who share a common philosophy) and trusting that person to do their thing.  It's cleaner that way.  They can focus on the game at hand more.  A HC who is more involved in each playcall (on either side of the ball) is more easily distracted.  

 

I just think it's easier to find another assistant (call him a clock management coach or whatever) than it is to find someone else as good on one side of the ball.  Not impossible, as I don't think Rex should be brought back no matter what (so long as the D is top 10).  But it's not that easy.  If it was possible to have Rex demoted to DC and someone else hired as HC, I'd be fine with it.  I don't think that is possible, and doubt anyone seriously thinks it is, so it's either Rex as the Jets' HC or Rex as an ex-Jet coach.

 

If there was a HC who would take a demotion to DC and stay with the team, and be ok with it, I'd say it would be Rex.  He is Mr. Self-Deprecating and actually could picture him saying, at a press conference, "Ya know I just love this team and want to be a part of it and I know what I am as a defensive coach but maybe I'm just missing something as the head coach.  Woody & John & [the new HC] offered me this job to stay and even though I know I could find a job as a DC or even as a HC elsewhere, I want to be around to help finish what we started here." Some blather like that.  I think it's unlikely to happen, but thinking about it now, it's not the most far-fetched thing I can imagine.

 

I couldnt see him being a DC again.  He has done too much with too little here as a HC for anyone to think that.  Is he a perfect HC, not by a long shot. Best thing is he realizes this and wants to be a perfect HC and SAYS he will strive for that. I believe him but I dont personally know him so it could be a bunch of hot air.  He has worked his way up as a heck of a DC, now he is working his way as a HC. 

 

You can believe in him or you can dismis him as a failure as a HC. I chose to believe in him.  I dont blame anyone for thinking he cant cut it as a HC. He has made mistakes and he may never be your typical HC.  As tom said there is a laundry list of things he can do better as a HC.  You can doubt him.  I dont but I could just as easily be wrong as the rex-sucks crowd.

[Jetsfan80]

Rex believes in himself too much as a HC to accept a demotion.  If we do fire him I kind of hope he'd go to ESPN or NFL Network and be an analyst for a year while waiting for the best possible HC job, rather than just going to the Jaguars or Raiders right away.  That would be some awesome entertainment.  But he loves coaching too much to take a year off, I imagine.

[T0mShane]

Why not just say, "I'd like to offer a truce. But first I'd like to get the last word in to everyone," since that's what you really meant?

What I actually meant was that you people want to argue the merits of a future Rex Ryan that doesn't currently exist and I just don't see the merit in going around and around with it. If you guys want to guess at what Rex will be in six months that he hasn't been over the last four years, who am I to badger you about that? I don't usually feel the need to get the last word; I let history do that for me.

I think you are making a massive assumption, that what you see on the field - particularly on defense - would look the same as with someone else, minus the parts of the game where you don't like his game management. It's a flawed assumption.

All we can go on is what we see. I suppose we're measuring Rex against a fictional median-level coach, but how is that unfair to Rex?

This team today was widely assumed to be a 3-6 win team on paper.

I had them at 7-9. I didn't take ESPN seriously.

People assumed that it was designed to be a throw-away season, not merely to rid the team of its bad contracts, but to also be bad enough so Idzik could justify firing Rex and bring in someone else. Now that 2 of the first 3 are in the bag, and there is a good chance that will be exceeded, instead of crediting Rex for doing better than anyone expected it will somehow be Rex's fault they were only a 7-9 win team and not a 10+ win team. Moving of goalposts is a weak way to argue. I expect that more from others.

I'm missing the part where I moved the goalposts.

If this team ends 8-8 with this group I'd say he did a fantastic job, warts and all, and should be back next season (which he's already under contract to be).

Agreed

[T0mShane]

As far as an extension beyond that, I can't say; it depends on the manner in which the season - particularly the 2nd half of the season - went. The team doesn't only have coaches, it also has players. The standing majority of players like and respect Rex and will want him to return (especially after a "successful" season). Fire him just so Idzik can bring in his own guy, especially one who has no head coaching experience himself, could result in a pretty bad implosion.

Among whom? We're concerned about Willie Colon imploding?

It is not the same as firing Dungy to replace him with Gruden (the object of your affection), as Gruden had already had success in Oakland (though not as much as Ryan has had, despite having a stud QB at his best).

I have literally never said we should hire Gruden, ever. I implied that Woody would hire Gruden only to antagonize dbatesman. It was an in-joke amongst The Ilk.

Plus everyone who wasn't blinded by a singular trait of Dungy's knew that he was keeping an obvious championship-level team out of the superbowl.

Agreed.

And yes, I do believe that his defense is enough to carry us to a championship with a merely above-average (even if not elite) offense, managed by an efficient QB capable of putting the team on his back. Ryan has not had this except for an unusual game here or there from Sanchez.

The 09 and 10 playoff runs did not end because Sanchez played poorly. The ended because the defense got steamrolled both years.

Your pro bowl comment, no offense, is just stupid. First off, Wilkerson is at or beyond a pro bowl level. The fact that fans and fellow players barely know his name is not a knock on Wilkerson. Rather it's a focus on fantasy football where stats get the notoriety and great overall play gets ignored. Also, no matter how many times you bring it up, Ryan is not and has not been the GM. So unless you think someone else would take his draft picks (a limited bunch at that, thanks to Tannenbaum), and turn Mark Sanchez and Shonn Greene and Vladimir Ducasse into stars at their respective positions, it's a weak argument at best. I've seen him make scrubs and castaways into valued players (Pouha, DeVito, and Snacks immediately come to mind). Or is it to his discredit that the Jets had high-priced players at a lot of these positions and if they were replaced at all then Tannenbaum replaced them with the likes of Brodney Pool and Wayne Hunter and Matt Slauson?

Agreed it's not my strongest argument, but I think it's a curiosity considering he's considered to be a player's coach. The lack of development of players not on the defensive line has been a huge issue for this franchise.

I think you are severely underplaying how a mistake-prone QB magnifies every criticism you'd have of any coach. I would not trade an overall massive downgrade in half the football team for a couple of in-game gaffes, no matter how infuriating they are. I believe that is what we'd get.

Unless there was a mandate to keep playing Sanchez, Rex can't be fully exonerated for the Sanchez Problem.

What to do after this season?

6-10 the only way he gets the benefit of the doubt to come back for 1 more season is if literally half the starters - the GOOD ones - get injured before October is done.

7-9 I think you have to look far beyond the record itself even though that's better than everyone thought it would be, yourself included I'd wager.

8-8 I'd most likely bring him back but not necessarily extend him (also depending on circumstances).

9-7, with this squad, you're going to have a tough time explaining to me that he didn't do a great job, worthy of a 2 year extension.

Beyond that isn't happening except in a dream. If it does, by some miracle, I think you sense that I don't think he should be fired. I think what I've outlined is fair.

Agreed with all the above.

[Matt39]

Among whom? We're concerned about Willie Colon imploding?

I have literally never said we should hire Gruden, ever. I implied that Woody would hire Gruden only to antagonize dbatesman. It was an in-joke amongst The Ilk.

Agreed.

The 09 and 10 playoff runs did not end because Sanchez played poorly. The ended because the defense got steamrolled both years.

Agreed it's not my strongest argument, but I think it's a curiosity considering he's considered to be a player's coach. The lack of development of players not on the defensive line has been a huge issue for this franchise.

Unless there was a mandate to keep playing Sanchez, Rex can't be fully exonerated for the Sanchez Problem.

Agreed with all the above.

 

Sperm's gonna go nuts on you for that one.

[Jetsfan80]

What I actually meant was that you people

 

What do you mean "you people"?

[Jetsfan80]

The 09 and 10 playoff runs did not end because Sanchez played poorly. The ended because the defense got steamrolled both years.

 

Steamrolled?  Really?  In the 2009 Colts game, Sanchez completed 17 passes.  The moment Shonn Greene got hurt we failed to move the ball at all.  Yes, I'll give you that Peyton Manning did Peyton Manning things in that 2nd half.  But giving up 377 yds and 30 pts is hardly getting "steamrolled" by maybe the best QB who has ever lived.  That's a pretty typical performance for him. 

 

2010 is an even poorer example.  The defense allowed 17 points, all in the 1st half.