You know what I find ironic... Bob Sutton.

[stugotz81]

can't help but wonder if the Jets secondary issues and their trading of the best cornerback since Deion are related. hmmm... 

What happened to the argument last year - that Cro and the secondary played so well after Revis went down with injury...therefore proving the Jets secondary can easily move along without Revis.......some said those stats were fabricated because nobody threw on the Jets that much bc we were getting blown out every game and there was no need to pass on us all game.....  

[Bleedin Green]

That's not the point I'm trying to make. What I'm saying is that defensive coordinators can be had, and we shouldn't feel like we must compromise having a sh*tty HC because he's good at being a defensive coordinator.

 

We can have both a great HC AND a defensive coordinator.

 

I agree with that, but I suppose I simply found Sutton to not exactly be the greatest example of that, despite the Chiefs' recent success.  Just as if the Rams started to become competent on offense it still wouldn't come close to convincing me the Jets would be better off with Schotty than Mornhinweg.

 

While I'm not completely convinced that firing Rex is the way to go (although I'm not particularly opposed to the idea either), I certainly agree that his abilities as a DC shouldn't be what is ultimately the basis for that decision.

[Jetscode1]

The D got 4 sacks and stuffed the run all game long. The defense can get better but it can also get much worse. The Jets are a good D, a steady special teams and an abortion on O. they could fire Rex and be bad on both sides of the football. 

 

The special teams are nothing special...not sure statistically but they bring nothing to the table to provide a spark.

[Jetscode1]

  I agree with this.   Rex's teams always seem to be "we will beat you 13-10."   It's the old Buddy Ryan mentality, it was the Ravens super bowl win over the Giants mentality and so on.  But we saw how that worked for the Ravens for years.  They always had a great defense, hell there were some years where they were one of the best defenses in years, but the only year they won was the year that defense was "once in a generation" kind of teams.

 

 Those teams rarely win.    The bears only won once. The Ravens once. They didn't win again until they became an offensive team. The Bucs great defenses never won until an Offensive coach took over.    This is the problem with the Rex Ryan mentality.   Those great defenses rarely win it all as it is, but Rex's defenses never seem to be great, but more like they "play far better than they should."     Those Ravens and Bears teams that won,  they would win 13-10.   The Jets seem to lose 14-13.  That's the difference. And again, those great defensive teams only rarely win anyway.

 

This.

 

Lack of complementary football.

[pedro55]

I agree with that, but I suppose I simply found Sutton to not exactly be the greatest example of that, despite the Chiefs' recent success.  Just as if the Rams started to become competent on offense it still wouldn't come close to convincing me the Jets would be better off with Schotty than Mornhinweg.

 

While I'm not completely convinced that firing Rex is the way to go (although I'm not particularly opposed to the idea either), I certainly agree that his abilities as a DC shouldn't be what is ultimately the basis for that decision.

 

  The problem with all of these theories is it's only a good decision if the next guy is better.   Dumping Schotty for Tony was not a good move.   it was dumb.  

So if Rex is cut and they bring in another Schiano wannabe, it doesn't make it a good decision just because Rex is gone.    

[Bleedin Green]

Jake Locker had a field day against us. Josh Freeman too. 

 

VAUNTED!

 

lolwut?  Outside of that last drive, which was pretty much entirely driven by Landry's horrid missed tackle, Freeman didn't do sh*t.  That's not even meant as a praise for the defense, as Freeman is awful, but saying he had a field day is nonsense.

[pedro55]

lolwut?  Outside of that last drive, which was pretty much entirely driven by Landry's horrid missed tackle, Freeman didn't do sh*t.  That's not even meant as a praise for the defense, as Freeman is awful, but saying he had a field day is nonsense.

 

  The Bucs were driving up and down the field.   THe only reason they didn't do anything was because Freeman sucks.   If the Bucs had a good QB, the Jets get beat down in that game.  Their WR were open and getting space all game long.  Freeman just couldn't throw them the damn ball.

[Jetscode1]

That's not the point I'm trying to make. What I'm saying is that defensive coordinators can be had, and we shouldn't feel like we must compromise having a sh*tty HC because he's good at being a defensive coordinator.

 

We can have both a great HC AND a defensive coordinator.

 

I agree with your points but also agree with JiF that it makes no sense for us as fans to evaluate week to week.

 

Comes down to Woody and Idzik.  Did he meet their goals?

[Bleedin Green]

  The Bucs were driving up and down the field.   THe only reason they didn't do anything was because Freeman sucks.   If the Bucs had a good QB, the Jets get beat down in that game.  Their WR were open and getting space all game long.  Freeman just couldn't throw them the damn ball.

 

Ok, but how is this is any different from what I said?  My post was responding to the notion that Freeman "had a field day against us", which your post would seem to suggest you agree with me isn't the case.  I even made the point to note that I wasn't crediting the defense.

[kay_gee]

The Bucs were driving up and down the field. THe only reason they didn't do anything was because Freeman sucks. If the Bucs had a good QB, the Jets get beat down in that game. Their WR were open and getting space all game long. Freeman just couldn't throw them the damn ball.

I really hate this argument. "If things were different, the results would be different!" well, yes, but they weren't, and you can say that about literally any set of circumstances that allows a team to win/lose. the Jets are not the only team to operate in absolute reality. Josh Freeman not being Tom Brady is/was a problem with the Bucs, not the Jets. the Jets SHOULD have held off Freeman.

[pedro55]

I really hate this argument. "If things were different, the results would be different!" well, yes, but they weren't, and you can say that about literally any set of circumstances that allows a team to win/lose. the Jets are not the only team to operate in absolute reality. Josh Freeman not being Tom Brady is/was a problem with the Bucs, not the Jets. the Jets SHOULD have held off Freeman.

 

  It's not an argument, it's the reality of the league and the Jets.   The defense doesn't play all that well at times, but since it's against the Freeman's of the world,  the stats pan out and they have a chance to win.   Even yesterdays game the stats don't look terrible, but the Jets defense got beat play after play.   If you look at it on paper,  people think the jets defense is top notch,  But if you watch the games and consider who they are playing,  it becomes a valid argument.  It's also why we see the same Jets team get beat down by good QBs more often than not.   Yes, there are those super hyped games where everything falls into place and they play their hearts out.  AKA the Patriots playoff game a few years back.  But then they go back to being the same team that can't stop good QBs.

 

 There is no argument, it's just most people overlook the fact that the Jets defense is rarely that good when they play good teams.  If the Patriots come in here next week and win 34 - 17,   and Geno doesn't turn the ball over,   people will make excuses.   As good as the Jets defense has been under Rex, they seem to have the same problem this team has had for years now and that's they never seem to play well when the play a good QB.   So when you look at the stats and ignore the fact that Freeman was QB, the stats don't really mean all that much.      

[Integrity28]

lolwut?  Outside of that last drive, which was pretty much entirely driven by Landry's horrid missed tackle, Freeman didn't do sh*t.  That's not even meant as a praise for the defense, as Freeman is awful, but saying he had a field day is nonsense.

 

I know. I wanted to see who got all huffy about me saying it though

[Integrity28]

I agree with your points but also agree with JiF that it makes no sense for us as fans to evaluate week to week.

 

Comes down to Woody and Idzik.  Did he meet their goals?

 

Yeah, I'm trying not to evaluate week-to-week, too. 

 

That's why I tried to position this from the standpoint of Rex being a good defensive mind shouldn't hamstring into thinking he's irreplaceable for the defense, in spite of the offense, as head coach...

 

It's altogether possible that we hired a complete head coach, and still have a defense good/great enough to help us win. But the reality is, you win on offense. 

[Jetscode1]

Yeah, I'm trying not to evaluate week-to-week, too. 

 

That's why I tried to position this from the standpoint of Rex being a good defensive mind shouldn't hamstring into thinking he's irreplaceable for the defense, in spite of the offense, as head coach...

 

It's altogether possible that we hired a complete head coach, and still have a defense good/great enough to help us win. But the reality is, you win on offense. 

 

I think many get wrapped up in how good Rex is with the defense...I get that...in fact...to Rex's credit he has at least gave us an identity as a defensive minded team in the golden age of QBs and offense...with that said...we have to build a team that plays complementary football...look at the Saints yesterday...they lost the game because in the final minutes of the game they could not earn a first down...not just once either...we give Payton the benefit of the doubt cause he has consistently developed a stellar offense and tries to get by with an average but opportunistic defense...so yesterday appears as the exception not the rule.

 

With Rex the track record look eerily familiar to Buddy Ryan...all defense all the time...until he fixes this perception...the harder it is for fans and his supporters to keep the faith...still think Marty Mornhinweg was a good hire to complement Rex and develop Geno...just disappointed Rex didn't find someone like him back in 2009...at some point like you suggested we can and maybe should move on if he cannot turn this area of weakness into a strength.

 

Just do not want to see Rex get fired and then we have casting calls from the ranks of the untried or recycled personalities.

[Integrity28]

I think many get wrapped up in how good Rex is with the defense...I get that...in fact...to Rex's credit he has at least gave us an identity as a defensive minded team in the golden age of QBs and offense...with that said...we have to build a team that plays complementary football...look at the Saints yesterday...they lost the game because in the final minutes of the game they could not earn a first down...not just once either...we give Payton the benefit of the doubt cause he has consistently developed a stellar offense and tries to get by with an average but opportunistic defense...so yesterday appears as the exception not the rule.

With Rex the track record look eerily familiar to Buddy Ryan...all defense all the time...until he fixes this perception...the harder it is for fans and his supporters to keep the faith...still think Marty Mornhinweg was a good hire to complement Rex and develop Geno...just disappointed Rex didn't find someone like him back in 2009...at some point like you suggested we can and maybe should move on if he cannot turn this area of weakness into a strength.

Just do not want to see Rex get fired and then we have casting calls from the ranks of the untried or recycled personalities.

I agree with everything you are saying.

I would add... The reality is, its a QB league. You get a QB everyone loves, and the NFL makes sure you play into the post-season.

[Lupz27]

Kansas City has invested in defense the past few years with their early draft picks... and now Sutton has turned that unit into one of the best defenses in the league.

 

They kill drives by sacking the QB, and forcing punts and they create turnovers. Those are the 2 things that you can and should get from your defense in the league the way the rules are written today. Most of the other crap stats don't matter. Defenses are hamstrung by rules. The greatest value they can provide is giving the ball back to the offense.

 

That's why Rex's defense, for as good as he makes it, is flawed. They suck at creating turnovers and by the time the 4th quarter rolls around they can't kill drives and force punts.

 

Sutton was one of Woody's signature, "I'm going to fire 80% of the staff but keep 20% as holdovers" guys. He's finally getting an opportunity to do more, and he's doing a great job.

 

Yet, we argue about needing a defensive coordinator as our head coach because we couldn't possibly find a defensive coordinator if we hired a real head coach... and all this time we had Sutton here, a perfectly good candidate who we could have had if we fired Rex and hired Andy Reid. 

 

Food for thought.

Well it doesn't hurt having the next Ed Reed at Safety, a top 5 ball hawking CB, and speed, and size all over the front 7.

[BP]

Sutton was wretched as a DC here and basically asked to be demoted. If anything, his success this year is a testament to what a good all-around coach Andy Reid is.

Sutton was forced to play Manginis defense (rush 3 dl against Seneca wallace and play zone in a snow storm). now hes attacking all the time.

 

I will never forget the super bowl against the Patriots. Andy Reids eagles are down by 16 points with 6 minutes left in the game and they're huddling up (no sense of urgency). things like this is why he always lost championship games and superbowls.

 

Hey, Rex loses championship games too, right? he must be great then!

[BP]

Holding a team to 19pts who's had 2 weeks to prepare when you've had 5 days, is a strong effort.  Especially when you consider that 7 of those points was all on Cro getting burned.  Pretty much should win whenever you a hold a team in the teens.  FWIW, 19pts would be good for 6th overall average in the league.

 

Offense laid an egg, which is going to happen with a rookie QB who's got limited weaponz, on a short week, losing his leading receiver.  

 

That was a team loss.  The D missed some opportunities, the offense didnt show up.  sh*t like this is going to happen to a very young team.  

OH YAY, WE ONLY HELD A TEAM TO 19 POINTS! TEH SUPER BOWL CHAMPIONS DUE DAT AWL DUH TYME. WE AR GREAT TEAM!

[Matt39]

The Chiefs also have a ton of talent on defense. There's a reason Reid chose KC. 

[Greenseed4]

The Chiefs also have a ton of talent on defense. There's a reason Reid chose KC. 

 

This. 

 

They added Sean Smith, Dunta Robinson and Mike DeVito to a defensive roster returning four-probowl players.  Dontari Poe (he of the 350lb man dunking a basketball, youtube video) is coming into his own, and they finally found a scheme to allow Tamba Hali and Justin Houston to wreck havoc on opposing QBs. 

 

Great defense. 

[Jetscode1]

The Chiefs also have a ton of talent on defense. There's a reason Reid chose KC. 

 

Especially nice when talent is on the other side of the ball from where you gained your reputation...