Kleckineau Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Its big game time. We all know its not always the team with the best players that wins. Game planning, in game coaching, 1/2 time adjustments, clock management, motivational tactics, challenges etc. Harbaugh and Carroll seem to be a bit hot headed at times, emotional, and sometimes that will have a negative effect on the teams performance. I think we saw a little of that yesterday with Harbaugh that would have hurt them against a better team. Fox? personally I think the only reason the Broncos got this far is because of Manning. I dont think he's a bad coach but I dont even know if they make the playoffs without Peyton. BB? Clearly the best of the four and gives them the best coaching advantage of the 4 remaining teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neckdemon Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 bellichick doesn't have the success he's had without brady Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 If coaches decide these matchups, it'll be Pats and Niners in the Super Bowl for sure. But I can't imagine BOTH road teams winning. Note that Harbaugh has a 4-2 record against Pete Carroll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faba Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Harbaugh- one of the biggest whiners on the sidelines Carroll- gung ho type of coach- Fox- low key BB- sour but smart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Fox? personally I think the only reason the Broncos got this far is because of Manning. I dont think he's a bad coach but I dont even know if they make the playoffs without Peyton. John Fox won a playoff game with Tim Tebow. And reached a Super Bowl with Jake Delhomme. Let that sink in, then come back and tell me what you think about John Fox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kleckineau Posted January 13, 2014 Author Share Posted January 13, 2014 John Fox won a playoff game with Tim Tebow. And reached a Super Bowl with Jake Delhomme. Let that sink in, then come back and tell me what you think about John Fox. I clearly stated he was not a bad coach. Probably better than Rex. I still dont think the Donkeys make it this far without P.M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I clearly stated he was not a bad coach. Probably better than Rex. I still dont think the Donkeys make it this far without P.M. Of course not. But with injuries all over the place the Broncos sacked Rivers what, 4 or 5 times on Sunday? Give credit where it's due. He's a superb coach. He's no Belichick but he's one of the top 5 or so in the league. PROBABLY better than Rex? He's CLEARLY better than Rex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewillie78 Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Harbaugh- one of the biggest whiners on the sidelines Carroll- gung ho type of coach- Fox- low key BB- sour but smart The "PARCELLS coaching tree" continues to dominate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kleckineau Posted January 13, 2014 Author Share Posted January 13, 2014 Of course not. But with injuries all over the place the Broncos sacked Rivers what, 4 or 5 times on Sunday? Give credit where it's due. He's a superb coach. He's no Belichick but he's one of the top 5 or so in the league. PROBABLY better than Rex? He's CLEARLY better than Rex. Superb and top 5 is a bit strong for me. He was a .500 coach before hooking his wagon to Peyton and I would rank at least 8-10 coaches ahead of him.This is only an opinion and I respect yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedin Green Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 While I certainly won't argue against the idea that the Broncos likely don't make it this far without Manning, it's worth noting that nobody thought sh*t of Carroll (at least in the NFL) until Wilson came to town, and Belichick has done exactly nothing in his coaching career without Brady. Harbaugh is the only one you could make an argument for not having to greatly credit his QB simply because he's had at least some postseason success with both of the QBs he's coached. That said, I think it's a fairly safe bet they wouldn't be here with the immortal Colt McCoy under center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 While I certainly won't argue against the idea that the Broncos likely don't make it this far without Manning, it's worth noting that nobody thought sh*t of Carroll (at least in the NFL) until Wilson came to town, and Belichick has done exactly nothing in his coaching career without Brady. Harbaugh is the only one you could make an argument for not having to greatly credit his QB simply because he's had at least some postseason success with both of the QBs he's coached. That said, I think it's a fairly safe bet they wouldn't be here with the immortal Colt McCoy under center. Belichick's considered one of the best DC's of all time. Carroll was a really good DC too. There was never a doubt those two could coach. Everyone needs a QB....but what the Patriots do every year is nuts. It's not all Brady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faba Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Seattle, San Fran, New England- the successful head coaches all have assistants in the mix for head coaching positions that are open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedin Green Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Belichick's considered one of the best DC's of all time. Carroll was a really good DC too. There was never a doubt those two could coach. Everyone needs a QB....but what the Patriots do every year is nuts. It's not all Brady. Yeah, and Rex was a phenomenal DC, what's your point? I'm not saying these guys cannot coach at all on any level, but the topic of discussion is head coaches here, and in both of their respective NFL head coaching careers, nothing much was thought of either of them prior to them finding their current QBs. As far as the Pats goes, it may not be all Brady, but the vast majority of it is. There was a stretch there where the Pats defense went straight down the sh*tter even with BB at the helm, but that didn't stop them from still doing their thing with Brady under center. I'm not even saying that either one is in any way a poor head coach, I'm simply saying that it's much more the exception than the rule that there's any instance of a team having significant postseason success that isn't largely attributable to the QB, and that holds true this year as well. My point was that to dismiss the contributions of one head coach because he has Peyton Manning under center but then insist the same logic doesn't apply to another coach who has Tom Brady is rather inconsistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Yeah, and Rex was a phenomenal DC, what's your point? I'm not saying these guys cannot coach at all on any level, but the topic of discussion is head coaches here, and in both of their respective NFL head coaching careers, nothing much was thought of either of them prior to them finding their current QBs. As far as the Pats goes, it may not be all Brady, but the vast majority of it is. There was a stretch there where the Pats defense went straight down the sh*tter even with BB at the helm, but that didn't stop them from still doing their thing with Brady under center. I'm not even saying that either one is in any way a poor head coach, I'm simply saying that it's much more the exception than the rule that there's any instance of a team having significant postseason success that isn't largely attributable to the QB, and that holds true this year as well. My point was that to dismiss the contributions of one head coach because he has Peyton Manning under center but then insist the same logic doesn't apply to another coach who has Tom Brady is rather inconsistent. I think it's pretty obvious Belichick's a better coach than Fox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedin Green Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I think it's pretty obvious Belichick's a better coach than Fox. That's fine, and I'm sure most, if not all, would agree with you. Here's the problem though, a valid conclusion doesn't justify an invalid argument. This is clearly a matter of not analyzing the situation to reach a conclusion, but rather reaching a conclusion first and then distorting the facts to claim that it somehow supports your position. There are plenty of reasons to believe BB is a better coach than Fox, that Fox has Manning as his QB but BB "only" has Brady isn't amongst them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 That's fine, and I'm sure most, if not all, would agree with you. Here's the problem though, a valid conclusion doesn't justify an invalid argument. This is clearly a matter of not analyzing the situation to reach a conclusion, but rather reaching a conclusion first and then distorting the facts to claim that it somehow supports your position. There are plenty of reasons to believe BB is a better coach than Fox, that Fox has Manning as his QB but BB "only" has Brady isn't amongst them. I attribute this to Belichick's ability to scheme a defense and create turnovers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I attribute this to Belichick's ability to scheme a defense and create turnovers. His defense was ranked 31st when they reached the Super Bowl 2 years ago. Good thing they had Brady, Gronk, and Welker then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 His defense was ranked 31st when they reached the Super Bowl 2 years ago. Good thing they had Brady, Gronk, and Welker then. They also led the AFC in takeaways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedin Green Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I attribute this to Belichick's ability to scheme a defense and create turnovers. I won't argue with you there, but my original point was directed at the OP which had the criteria being used changing from team to team. All things being equal I'm not arguing that BB isn't the better coach, but I still see little reason to believe that the Pats would be playing on Sunday if they didn't have Brady, just as the Bronco's wouldn't be without Manning. That's today's NFL for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I won't argue with you there, but my original point was directed at the OP which had the criteria being used changing from team to team. All things being equal I'm not arguing that BB isn't the better coach, but I still see little reason to believe that the Pats would be playing on Sunday if they didn't have Brady, just as the Bronco's wouldn't be without Manning. That's today's NFL for you. The QB will always be the most important position for a franchise to fill and will have the biggest impact on consistent regular season success. From a game by game basis though and especially in an elimination tournament....they aren't always the most important players. Brady and Wilson didn't have to do anything really in their respective games and they still would have won. It's not always about Brady, Manning etc. Sometimes it's about the coach. And with Belichick vs Peyton again....that's always been an advantage for New England. If Belichick were the Colts or Broncos coach for all of these years....I'd imagine he'd have similar success vs Brady. Hell go back to 2009- Peyton vs Rex was clearly won by Peyton. We had the best pass defense in football and got lit up. Rex got him back the following year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JiFtheOracle Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Definitely interesting similar situations: Fox vs. BB - led by the 2 best QB's of the generation. Manning vs. Brady - the exact way the NFL would want it. BB has always had problems in Denver, but that was mostly during the Shannahan years. BB's up ended Fox before, in the SB with superior D but that was when Fox had Delhomme and not Manning. Should be one for the ages. Both teams won at the heels of their running game in the divisional round. Harbaugh vs. Carrol - 2 complete douchebags hot head idiots from the college ranks. Both teams built 100% on defense and running the ball. Both found "new wave" type QB's past the 1st round who've rounded those teams off and made them legit contenders every year. Playing in the same division and pretty much everyone favorites from the NFC. Wilson looked terrible in their win and Kap has made every big play necessary when the 49'ers needed it most. If coaching is the deciding factor we'll be watching the Pats play the 49'ers in our stadium for the Super Bowl. Yipee!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 IMO, Carroll grew up a lot when he took the USC job and had to learn to run an entire operation. He was always a good X and O coach, but he was a poor leader before then. The USC head coach is a pressure cooker job that gets scrutinized 365 days out of the year. If Rex ever gets fired, taking a college job would serve him well that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewillie78 Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 IMO, Carroll grew up a lot when he took the USC job and had to learn to run an entire operation. He was always a good X and O coach, but he was a poor leader before then. The USC head coach is a pressure cooker job that gets scrutinized 365 days out of the year. If Rex ever gets fired, taking a college job would serve him well that way. Dont you mean " WHEN ever Rex gets fired"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 And an intersting thought...for all the props we give Brady(and deservedly so). Their playoff losses recently have been more on the offense than the defense. I don't know how much of it is by design or whatever...but the Pats defenses during the regular season has always given up a ton of yards but also countered it with a ton of takeaways. No team changes in the fly better the Pats do. That's coaching. Seattle doesn't give up yards and creates a ton of turnovers. Carroll deserves a ton of credit for that secondary. Seattle wins games because teams cannot throw the ball in them. They had Sean Payton and Jimmy Graham sucking their thumbs on Saturday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedro55 Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 They also led the AFC in takeaways. This is one of the most overrated stats in sports. When your offense scores 30+ points a game it puts a hell of a lot of pressure on opposing offenses to throw the ball and score. Defenses need to make plays, but when you take stats without any context, it's kind of meaningless. You score 30 points against teams like the Jets and Bills and Jags and the defense should have a field day. You play in a game where it's 13-13, it's a different story. It's also why certain teams defenses wind up blowing games in the playoffs because when the other team doesn't need to throw the ball 40 times and score 30 points, the defense doens't look that impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedro55 Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 And an intersting thought...for all the props we give Brady(and deservedly so). Their playoff losses recently have been more on the offense than the defense. I don't know how much of it is by design or whatever...but the Pats defenses during the regular season has always given up a ton of yards but also countered it with a ton of takeaways. No team changes in the fly better the Pats do. That's coaching. Seattle doesn't give up yards and creates a ton of turnovers. Carroll deserves a ton of credit for that secondary. Seattle wins games because teams cannot throw the ball in them. They had Sean Payton and Jimmy Graham sucking their thumbs on Saturday. Again this is really the Peyton Manning argument. Teams who score 30+ points a game all season long and have defenses who give up points and yards, but have picks probably aren't as good as that stats make them out to be. And the Pats have become like the old Colts and Manning teams. They score a lot of points, the defense gives up points. And then the playoffs happen and they lose 24-20 or something and it's the offense that didn't score their normal 30+ points a game or Wes Welker dropped a pass. The problem is the defense stinks, they just get away with having an offense that scores 30 points every game. They get put in positions to make picks because that offense scores 30 points and puts a ton of pressure on the other team to score on every drive and score TDs. When the other QB and offense thinks they have to score a TD on every drive to stay in the game, it makes it an entirely different kind of game. And in games where the offense is off, the defense can't make stops. But the only gave up 24 points so the offense should have scored more is the reasoning. It's a bad argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 This is one of the most overrated stats in sports. When your offense scores 30+ points a game it puts a hell of a lot of pressure on opposing offenses to throw the ball and score. Defenses need to make plays, but when you take stats without any context, it's kind of meaningless. You score 30 points against teams like the Jets and Bills and Jags and the defense should have a field day. You play in a game where it's 13-13, it's a different story. It's also why certain teams defenses wind up blowing games in the playoffs because when the other team doesn't need to throw the ball 40 times and score 30 points, the defense doens't look that impressive. Interceptions are not overrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jared Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Check the Pats scoring defense ranks for the past decade. It is consistently better than their yardage rank, often in the top 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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