Speed Kills: How draft picks could get "burned" by 40 times at combine.

[HessStation]

Yes. He's an all pro and happens to be one of the fastest guys in the NFL. Whats your point? And whatever that point is please apply it to Stephen Hill so we can have an All Pro WR okay?

You're clearly not digesting anything I've said.

[Villain The Foe]

You're clearly not digesting anything I've said.

I am. I said two posts ago that we do see eye to eye on most of what we're saying outside of our perception of the importance of the 40. I see it as a tool that shows how fast a guy can run starting in a track stance. You see it as providing more. Thats cool. We dont have to argue. We can hug and make smores by the fire if you like lol. 

[HessStation]

I am. I said two posts ago that we do see eye to eye on most of what we're saying outside of our perception of the importance of the 40. I see it as a tool that shows how fast a guy can run starting in a track stance. You see it as providing more. Thats cool. We dont have to argue. We can hug and make smores by the fire if you like lol.

I'll make mine faster which clearly makes me better.

[BroadwayJoe12]

https://www.google.com/#q=larry+fitzgerald+40+time&spell=1

 

I got Fitz running a 4.63 official at the combine. Maybe he did better at his pro day, but im talking combine stats. I dont know what his pro day numbers were. 

 

You got him running a 4.63 at the combine, he ran a 4.47 at his proday. The former is only used by people to downplay the forty.  FWIW Jarret only ran at USC's proday, so the numbers are on somewhat equal footings, consdering Pitt isn't known for having a fast track like Va Tech.

 

It didnt matter to Jerry Rice, and his 40 is one of the worst in this history of WR's on the professional level. Yet you will NEVER find a tape of Rice getting caught from behind. Good luck finding that. 

 

Bill Walsh seemed to agree with that as well. He put his reputation on the line even drafting Jerry Rice with that 40 time. He knew what he saw in Rice was a football player, and an elite one when he got the ball in his hands. 

 

the 40 shows what a guy can do running without a football or gear on. Jerry rice showed what he will do to you if you put on pads that particular sunday. 

 

Jerry Rice did not run a slow 40, that's been pretty much corroborated by all those who saw him run, including Walsh. While it was in the low 4.5s or high 4.4s, rice never ran a 4.7. Once again, it's used as a motivational tool like Michael Jordan getting "cut" from his high school basketball team. 

 

neither one of those guys ran an electronic controlled 40. they were all hand recorded. since the implementation of the laser at the combine the fastest recorded was 4.24. 

 

They used to use the metal flip pad, which actually slowed a lot of times down: many of those 40 times would actually be faster today. They did a whole piece on it during the combine.

[Villain The Foe]

I'll make mine faster which clearly makes me better.

getting your smore to the plate first doesnt mean it will be the best when its said and done. 

[Villain The Foe]

You got him running a 4.63 at the combine, he ran a 4.47 at his proday. The former is only used by people to downplay the forty.  FWIW Jarret only ran at USC's proday, so the numbers are on somewhat equal footings, consdering Pitt isn't known for having a fast track like Va Tech.

 

 

Jerry Rice did not run a slow 40, that's been pretty much corroborated by all those who saw him run, including Walsh. While it was in the low 4.5s or high 4.4s, rice never ran a 4.7. Once again, it's used as a motivational tool like Michael Jordan getting "cut" from his high school basketball team. 

 

 

They used to use the metal flip pad, which actually slowed a lot of times down: many of those 40 times would actually be faster today. They did a whole piece on it during the combine.

Wait, did Michael Jordan actually get cut from his high school basketball team? 

[BroadwayJoe12]

Wait, did Michael Jordan actually get cut from his high school basketball team? 

 

Not really. So the hollywood story goes that MJ was cut from his high school basketball team, worked hard all summer and came back to be the star that ended up going to UNC etc.  However, the reason he was left off of the varsity team was because he as in 10th grade and the coach said it just wasn't done: they only made one exception and that was for another 10th grade, but because he had the size the team needed, not because he was a better player than Michael.  The coach went on to say that MJ was a two year starter on varsity and was, as expected, an absolute star on their JV squad was well.  I think he averaged a triple double his senior year or all throughout high school.

[#27TheDominator]

Okay, then if its from a bunch a morons then they're pretty damn consistent morons. If FItz ran a faster 40 at the combine then please provide a link from the NFL or the video itself. Until then I'll take what I see on the google link. And for the record, its not only from the bleacher report. I dont know whats up with Jet fans and that site but the hatred is strong. lol. 

 

Jeffery didnt go after Hill because he ran slow at all, he went after because how Fast Hill ran. the 40 has burned teams plenty of times, yet great WR's with a variety of speeds have been more than successful in the league yet the 40 still seems to be come sort of pedestal

 

They are not consistent.  They are quoting ONE moron without checking.

 

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=27220&draftyear=2004&genpos=WR

 

No combine workout, choice

 

Here is one that says he ran a 4.47.  It's wrong.  They are quoting his pro day time, but it is a more valid source than any of the 4.63 times.  Google and Wikipedia are not sources. 

 

 

http://www.footballnation.com/content/larry-fitzgerald-vs-calvin-johnson-who-is-the-best-wr-nfl/22040/

 

Drafted third overall in 2004, Fitzgerald was highly-touted. He did not disappoint at the NFL Combine. Fitz came in at 6-foot-3, 213 pounds. He ran a 4.47 in the 40 and did 20 reps of 225 pounds. He recorded a 35-inch vertical and is rumoured to have around a 5-foot-8 wingspan.

Don't let the forty time fool you. He plays much faster on the field and can outrun almost any defender he is matched up with. Remember the 64-yard touchdown in the Super Bowl? Yea, thought so.

[LionelRichie]

40s are probably the best measure for the NFL.

 

 

this is silly.    the 3-4 years of game tape is the best measure of the NFL.    the 40 is a single data point taken 6.5 months before the season starts, it's not even indicative of what the player would run in training camp.   

 

if anything, the 40 is the single most overrated measure not the best.    so much emphasis in put on proper technique and the first 10 yards of acceleration.    look at Stephen Hill.   where do you think he gets drafted if the Tannenbaum didn't look at the 40 time?   

[HessStation]

this is silly. the 3-4 years of game tape is the best measure of the NFL. the 40 is a single data point taken 6.5 months before the season starts, it's not even indicative of what the player would run in training camp.

if anything, the 40 is the single most overrated measure not the best. so much emphasis in put on proper technique and the first 10 yards of acceleration. look at Stephen Hill. where do you think he gets drafted if the Tannenbaum didn't look at the 40 time?

You can bring a horse to water....

[Jetsfan80]

Sucks that Sammy Watkins is going top 5 because of his 40 time.  I was far more impressed with his 16 reps in the bench press (NO ONE is bumping him at the line of scrimmage) and 10'6" broad jump.  Just a total freak. 

[Matt39]

Sucks that Sammy Watkins is going top 5 because of his 40 time. I was far more impressed with his 16 reps in the bench press (NO ONE is bumping him at the line of scrimmage) and 10'6" broad jump. Just a total freak.

Yeah he's a stud

[#27TheDominator]

this is silly.    the 3-4 years of game tape is the best measure of the NFL.    the 40 is a single data point taken 6.5 months before the season starts, it's not even indicative of what the player would run in training camp.   

 

if anything, the 40 is the single most overrated measure not the best.    so much emphasis in put on proper technique and the first 10 yards of acceleration.    look at Stephen Hill.   where do you think he gets drafted if the Tannenbaum didn't look at the 40 time?   

 

Just to clarify, I was not claiming that the 40 is the best measure of success in the NFL.  I was saying it is the best measure of speed in the NFL.  Trust me, those guys that you couldn't cover in high school ran faster 40s and "game speed" is damn near a myth. 

[HessStation]

Just to clarify, I was not claiming that the 40 is the best measure of success in the NFL. I was saying it is the best measure of speed in the NFL. Trust me, those guys that you couldn't cover in high school ran faster 40s and "game speed" is damn near a myth.

Don't bother. It's just a vicious circle with these guys and the speed thing.

[Villain The Foe]

They are not consistent.  They are quoting ONE moron without checking.

 

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=27220&draftyear=2004&genpos=WR

 

Here is one that says he ran a 4.47.  It's wrong.  They are quoting his pro day time, but it is a more valid source than any of the 4.63 times.  Google and Wikipedia are not sources. 

 

 

http://www.footballnation.com/content/larry-fitzgerald-vs-calvin-johnson-who-is-the-best-wr-nfl/22040/

Instead of going through all this how about simply putting up his combine time. If it's different from what I put up then simply show it. All this moron stuff isn't really changing anything. Did he run a 4.63 at the combine or not. All these internet examples are not the point here. 

[HessStation]

Instead of going through all this how about simply putting up his combine time. If it's different from what I put up then simply show it. All this moron stuff isn't really changing anything. Did he run a 4.63 at the combine or not. All these internet examples are not the point here.

If he ran a 4.47 at his pro day what's the difference? Just wondering what te opinion is from a guy who doesn't care about 40s.

[#27TheDominator]

HE DID NOT WORKOUT AT THE COMBINE.  I posted sources that said he ran a 4.47 there that are at least as valid than the 4.63 to show what happens ten years down the line. .

[HessStation]

Calvin Jonson wasn't a top 5 pick until he proved he could run 4.4. Andre Johnson wasn't a top 5 pick until he proved he could run a 4.4. Chris Johnson was a third round pick until he ran his 40. Fitzgerald wasn't a top 5 pick until he proved he could run a 4.4. I could go on....

There will always be guys who prove they can still play w/out a big time 40 but their odds of success increase when they are fast.

It's why EVERYONE Not withstanding the grassy knoll group, believes the 40 is an important component of grading out a prospects value.

[Villain The Foe]

If he ran a 4.47 at his pro day what's the difference? Just wondering what te opinion is from a guy who doesn't care about 40s.

The point here is that his pro day numbers were presented as if the numbers I put up are wrong, or as if the numbers on the net are made by morons. Either he ran that time at the combine or he didn't. Let me know. 

[HessStation]

The point here is that his pro day numbers were presented as if the numbers I put up are wrong, or as if the numbers on the net are made by morons. Either he ran that time at the combine or he didn't. Let me know.

There is no documented data base that shows Fitzgerald performed at the combine. The two I looked at that has individual numbers by every player in the 2004 draft has no information on Larry Fitzgerald. One data base even shows his name but not even with height or weight posted.

[#27TheDominator]

The point here is that his pro day numbers were presented as if the numbers I put up are wrong, or as if the numbers on the net are made by morons. Either he ran that time at the combine or he didn't. Let me know. 

 

I have never seen one reputable source indicate that Larry Fitzgerald has ever run a 4.63.  I was not saying anything about your intelligence.  I saw one "wiki answer" that has been quoted.  I am not really sure why you are trying to defend the premise that he ran 4.63.  Here is another site that indicates Fitzgerald did not run at the combine:  http://nflcombineresults.com/nflcombinedata.php?year=2004&pos=WR&college=

 

Remember, when Fitzgerald came out he was only 2 years out of PIttsburgh and he had to petition the league.  This was around the same time as the Clarett case, but Fitzgerald had some time at a military academy or something that they accepted. I'm not sure where that process was at combine time.

[Villain The Foe]

I have never seen one reputable source indicate that Larry Fitzgerald has ever run a 4.63.  I was not saying anything about your intelligence.  I saw one "wiki answer" that has been quoted.  I am not really sure why you are trying to defend the premise that he ran 4.63.  Here is another site that indicates Fitzgerald did not run at the combine:  http://nflcombineresults.com/nflcombinedata.php?year=2004&pos=WR&college=

 

Remember, when Fitzgerald came out he was only 2 years out of PIttsburgh and he had to petition the league.  This was around the same time as the Clarett case, but Fitzgerald had some time at a military academy or something that they accepted. I'm not sure where that process was at combine time.

I'm not defending the time. He didn't run a sub 4.40 whether he ran (or didn't run) at the combine or at his pro day.  I don't remember his petition to the league, that's why I said lets pass the name calling of people who post info on the net because any info presented will come from the net. I didn't think you were insulting my intelligence. 

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

This is how it works. Speed is speed, and it is the best way by far to win deep. The thing is, winning deep doesn't matter if you don't win at the line of scrimmage because the quarterback is already looking somewhere else. In the NFL dropback passing offense (yes, they are all the same; no, let's not argue about it), the progression starts with the deep read then works its way back. This is not necessarily the case in college where talent disparities let you get away with doing all sorts of goofy crap, but in the pros there just isn't time. The quarterback needs the last couple steps of the drop to process and then set and throw in order to drive the long ball. The guys who have the long speed but don't work out almost invariably can't get a release and it doesn't even matter if they are fast enough to recover just because of the way play design works.

[Matt39]

This is how it works. Speed is speed, and it is the best way by far to win deep. The thing is, winning deep doesn't matter if you don't win at the line of scrimmage because the quarterback is already looking somewhere else. In the NFL dropback passing offense (yes, they are all the same; no, let's not argue about it), the progression starts with the deep read then works its way back. This is not necessarily the case in college where talent disparities let you get away with doing all sorts of goofy crap, but in the pros there just isn't time. The quarterback needs the last couple steps of the drop to process and then set and throw in order to drive the long ball. The guys who have the long speed but don't work out almost invariably can't get a release and it doesn't even matter if they are fast enough to recover just because of the way play design works.

 

Can release be taught or was Hill doomed from the beginning

[RutgersJetFan]

The quarterback needs the last couple steps of the drop to process and then set and throw in order to drive the long ball.

 

[pedro55]

Calvin Jonson wasn't a top 5 pick until he proved he could run 4.4. Andre Johnson wasn't a top 5 pick until he proved he could run a 4.4. Chris Johnson was a third round pick until he ran his 40. Fitzgerald wasn't a top 5 pick until he proved he could run a 4.4. I could go on....

There will always be guys who prove they can still play w/out a big time 40 but their odds of success increase when they are fast.

It's why EVERYONE Not withstanding the grassy knoll group, believes the 40 is an important component of grading out a prospects value.

 

  The funny thing about these guys is their teams all pretty much suck and have sucked for years.    And Fitzgerald got to a super bowl the year the Cardinals had Kurt Warner as QB.      But Johnson and the Lions have pretty much been a losing team.  Chris Johnson put up big numbers, but the Titans have been a bad team for years.  Andre Johnson was on a team who were always up and coming and never really made the next step.

 

 So as great as these guys are, it's obvious none of them really made their teams winners over the years.  They just had great numbers most of the time.

[LionelRichie]

Just to clarify, I was not claiming that the 40 is the best measure of success in the NFL.  I was saying it is the best measure of speed in the NFL.  Trust me, those guys that you couldn't cover in high school ran faster 40s and "game speed" is damn near a myth. 

 

this is exactly why Heyward-Bey and Tedd Ginn lead the league in receiving every year right?    Why Keenan Allen sucked as a rookie and why Richard Sherman can't cover anyone. 

 

I honestly think we are talking about two different things.   My point is simply that too much emphasis is put on the 40.   You are either fast or you're not.   the difference between 4.4 and 4.5 is negligible and technique is of greater importance than speed.   Football in general and the NFL isn't the same as playing Madden and the "fast" guys don't automatically get open.

 

Again.....you can see who is fast by watching film.   You can also see who is a football player and who isn't.   If the Jets never even used 40-times as a data point they would probably be better served.    

[LionelRichie]

Calvin Jonson wasn't a top 5 pick until he proved he could run 4.4. Andre Johnson wasn't a top 5 pick until he proved he could run a 4.4. Chris Johnson was a third round pick until he ran his 40. Fitzgerald wasn't a top 5 pick until he proved he could run a 4.4. I could go on....

There will always be guys who prove they can still play w/out a big time 40 but their odds of success increase when they are fast.

It's why EVERYONE Not withstanding the grassy knoll group, believes the 40 is an important component of grading out a prospects value.

 

this is just patently false. 

 

Here is a historical archive of Mock drafts from 2007: http://walterfootball.com/draftdata2007.php  

This includes pre-combine and post-combine mock drafts.   Notice Calvin Johnson is always in the same spot.   How is that possible?   According to you Calvin Johnson wasn't a top 5 pick until he ran at the combine.     You know who beat CJ in the combine -  David Clowney.  

[#27TheDominator]

Villian I am not arguing about the 4.3 statement.  I am saying that Fitzgerald is not slow.  I have seen him quoted as slow and he was not.  Neither was Rice.  Neither was a blazer, but they weren't 4.7 guys either.  I don't think you should pick a player based on his 40, but if a guy is a dog you'd better take a double or triple hard look because there are going to be very few successful NFL WRs running in the 4.7-4.8 range. 

 

this is exactly why Heyward-Bey and Tedd Ginn lead the league in receiving every year right?    Why Keenan Allen sucked as a rookie and why Richard Sherman can't cover anyone. 

 

I honestly think we are talking about two different things.   My point is simply that too much emphasis is put on the 40.   You are either fast or you're not.   the difference between 4.4 and 4.5 is negligible and technique is of greater importance than speed.   Football in general and the NFL isn't the same as playing Madden and the "fast" guys don't automatically get open.

 

Again.....you can see who is fast by watching film.   You can also see who is a football player and who isn't.   If the Jets never even used 40-times as a data point they would probably be better served.    

 

Your first statement is so irrelevant to what I said that I wonder if you even read my post.  Your second paragraph makes some sense, but the difference between 4.4 and 4.5 is NOT negligible.  It is almost an eternity.  The difference between 4.49 and 4.51 may not be much but 4.40 and 4.50?  That's a ton.

 

That last paragraph is where I completely disagree.  You can see who is faster than the other players on the field on film, but who cares who is faster than a bunch of 4.7 DBs? 1 player can abuse guys slightly slower and will do nothing once the athletic competition is more his equal.  It is what makes the combine super important because the guys are running on equal footing.  Pro day times are all screwy with different surfaces and venues.  Teams pay attention to times because they are an important measure.  Not the be all end all. If you want to keep fighting that teams draft only because of the 40, do it with somebody else.  You didn't hear that here.

 

FWIW, Hill supposedly killed on the gauntlet drill and had excellent workouts. 

[HessStation]

this is just patently false.

Here is a historical archive of Mock drafts from 2007: http://walterfootball.com/draftdata2007.php

This includes pre-combine and post-combine mock drafts. Notice Calvin Johnson is always in the same spot. How is that possible? According to you Calvin Johnson wasn't a top 5 pick until he ran at the combine. You know who beat CJ in the combine - David Clowney.

I'm sorry u did all that work for not understanding my point which was if calvin Johnson didn't run a 4.4 flat he wasn't going #2 etc. The 40 confirmed the spot.

It's also why I prefaced CHris Johnson was a third round pick until the 40. If you noticed I never said Any of the WRs were late rounders etc. Fitzgerald was considered by many the greatest college WR ever coming out. If he ran 4.6's he probably wasn't going top 5.

There's a correlation is my point which you guys ae trying to disprove w exceptions to the rule.

[HessStation]

Not sure this post made sense so edit.

[Villain The Foe]

Not sure this post made sense so edit.

I don't know what it said but I would have agreed lol

[HessStation]

I don't know what it said but I would have agreed lol

you realize you've been arguing w the guy that wants Marqise Lee and his 4.52 at 18, right?

[Villain The Foe]

you realize you've been arguing w the guy that wants Marqise Lee and his 4.52 at 18, right?

If we took lee at 18 id be happy, for as long as we take Matthews in the 2nd. Lol

[HessStation]

If we took lee at 18 is be happy, for as long as we take Matthews in the 2nd. Lol

I'd sign up for that.

You love you your Alshon Jeffries and his clones.