Sperm Edwards Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 They look incompetent now, but not by throwing more guaranteed money than they want to spend at players they don't really want? Giving 7M per to Howard, or a $11M bonus to DRC would ooze competence? Apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbanmadmike1 Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 You don't follow? You're apoplectic over the Jets losing an "impact player" in Howard. It seems you gauge how good a player is by how much the highest bidder is willing to pay him. You're also complaining about not getting better at the position, while your desire was obviously to stay exactly the same at the position by bringing back the same player! If the team makes a lateral move, but does it for $2M/year cheaper, that IS making the team better. Now you get a $3M stop-gap instead of a $1M stop-gap. You get a $5M backup QB instead of a $3M backup QB. Or find a few places to accomplish the same thing, and now you've saved up $6M to upgrade a $2M guard to an $8M guard. Boyyyyy are you now backtracking on Wilson. First you use a year ranking to say how terrible he was, particularly lining up outside. Then I bring up a single 99-yard play wrecking his ranking somewhat (as it would to any player), and you basically now say the ranking back doesn't matter because that's not his value "right now" (I boldfaced this part above)? I didn't say you were a terrible fan. I said (in so many words) that if you're this miserable maybe you should find something else to occupy your time. It's a spectator sport and we're the spectators. And it's not even a spectator sport right now that you're getting all riled up about. It's the pre-draft offseason. I'm far more ok with the GM not locking us into mistakes than making them just for the sake of doing something. Someone like Verner would have been good, but when the dust cleared it then came out he wasn't leaving Indy unless someone offered him near $11M/year (which is ridiculous for him). Pettigrew re-upping with Detroit has people up in arms. What did you want, to lock ourselves into Brandon Pettigrew at $5M per? People are preaching speed and playmaking on offense and those same people are complaining about not signing Brandon Pettigrew like he's a top-10 TE? This is the type of inconsistency (or outright hypocrisy) of which I was speaking. And you did follow me. It's funny that you're so focused on the issue of Howard that you're ignoring all the other points I've made about what a terrible job this GM is doing here. Verner signed with TB, not Indy and he got an EXTREMELY reasonable contract. The jets could've beat that deal and still would've been getting a bargain. BTW when did I say that they should go out and spend on just any player as long as they are FA? Of course giving Brandon Pettigrew 5M would've been dumb because he isn't that good. I frankly, have no idea why they were interested in him and his hands of stone to begin with just like I have no idea why they wanted MJD or Donald Brown. That doesn't mean that giving other players they needed to improve this team at positions of need contracts would've been bad moves! How about knowing what FA's are worth paying and going out and paying them? I'm not back tracking on Wilson at all. He's a decent inside CB and a terrible outside CB and I haven't said anything different from that. If the Jets don't add a starting caliber CB and Wilson is forced to start outside, that is a disaster. If you want me to give them credit in going from Howard to Gacomini and that saves them 2M ,(out of 30M that they are under the cap) fine but thats as small bore as it gets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 if they signed 3 impact players and drafted 2 more impact players, that's even more of an improvement, no? Well, 5 > 2. But, I don't think it's as simple as that. I don't think the appropriate combination of players was available to us that makes us a super bowl contender this year. I know the logic around these parts is that Jackson and Johnson make us instant contenders, but I don't believe that to be true. So, I'd rather slow and steady improvement as opposed to anything that could handicap our future. The same Jets fans who are killing this strategy right now aren't going out and betting on the Raiders? Why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack48 Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I don't understand how the fact that they look completely incompetent in these negotiations isn't an issue for you. It's the same pattern, a joke upfront office, then nothing, then a last ditch effort and close to market value which always fails. How does that in any way give you confidence that this GM knows what he's doing? they are not trying to out-negotiate other teams. Out-negotiating them would simply be a paraphrase for overpaying. Because players have agents and agents ar enot dumb. They simply do not want to overpay. Overpay this guy and then you have to overpay three other guys coming along on your roster. They have a price, and they have been sticking pretty much to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 It's funny that you're so focused on the issue of Howard that you're ignoring all the other points I've made about what a terrible job this GM is doing here. Verner signed with TB, not Indy and he got an EXTREMELY reasonable contract. The jets could've beat that deal and still would've been getting a bargain. BTW when did I say that they should go out and spend on just any player as long as they are FA? Of course giving Brandon Pettigrew 5M would've been dumb because he isn't that good. I frankly, have no idea why they were interested in him and his hands of stone to begin with just like I have no idea why they wanted MJD or Donald Brown. That doesn't mean that giving other players they needed to improve this team at positions of need contracts would've been bad moves! How about knowing what FA's are worth paying and going out and paying them? I'm not back tracking on Wilson at all. He's a decent inside CB and a terrible outside CB and I haven't said anything different from that. If the Jets don't add a starting caliber CB and Wilson is forced to start outside, that is a disaster. If you want me to give them credit in going from Howard to Gacomini and that saves them 2M ,(out of 30M that they are under the cap) fine but thats as small bore as it gets. Reports were that the Jets were not intereted in Verner and I have read that is not suited to this D in more than a few places. Apparently they were very interested in Vontae Davis. There is a value that each player has to this team and IMO $15M in guarntees to DRC or Austin Howard does not reach the threshold. I would not be doing things the way Idzik has, but he is sticking to his plan and judging that on March 31 is kind of silly. You are still stuck on how allegedly talent bereft this roster is, but I thought last season put that to rest. Luck regression, indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbanmadmike1 Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 they are not trying to out negotiate other teams. Out negotiating them would simply be a paraphrase for overpaying. Because players have agents and agents ar enot dumb. They simply do not want to overpay. Overpay this guy and then you have to overpay three other guys coming along on your roster. They have a price, and they have been sticking pretty much to it. And in doing so they haven't improved this roster NEARLY as much as they needed to. But at least Idzik can feel good that he didn't overpay huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 And in doing so they haven't improved this roster NEARLY as much as they needed to. But at least Idzik can feel good that he didn't overpay huh? QFT If only they had improved to a 9-7 roster! Then with luck regression they could have been 8-8 again! Overpaying = years of trouble, but hey they "improved" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I don't understand how the fact that they look completely incompetent in these negotiations Your evidence of this is what exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Verner doesn't play man-to-man. He signed in a cover 2 system that doesn't play man-to-man. Rex's corners play man-to-man. Why is anyone talking about Verner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedin Green Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Actually he didn't play outside in 2012. That was 2011. He's been inside for 2 years. And if your argument that Kyle Wilson is a fine starting CB, then the Jets are ****ed. Say what? Revis and Cro were both 16 game starters in 2011, Wilson never played outside (except perhaps the occasional snap). Revis was hurt in week 2 in 2012, which is why Wilson started all season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Verner doesn't play man-to-man. He signed in a cover 2 system that doesn't play man-to-man. Rex's corners play man-to-man. Why is anyone talking about Verner? Cimini listed him as a target before the FA period started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbanmadmike1 Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Reports were that the Jets were not intereted in Verner and I have read that is not suited to this D in more than a few places. Apparently they were very interested in Vontae Davis. There is a value that each player has to this team and IMO $15M in guarntees to DRC or Austin Howard does not reach the threshold. I would not be doing things the way Idzik has, but he is sticking to his plan and judging that on March 31 is kind of silly. You are still stuck on how allegedly talent bereft this roster is, but I thought last season put that to rest. Luck regression, indeed. Did you watch last season at all? This was an ugly, terrible team. You're really going to let yourself be fooled by a few wins against terrible teams in Dec? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Did you watch last season at all? This was an ugly, terrible team. You're really going to let yourself be fooled by a few wins against terrible teams in Dec? Terrible, yet they draft 18th. I guess 17 teams were tanking for Johnny Football. Or was it luck regression? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Cimini listed him as a target before the FA period started. Of course. The funniest thing about this offseason is how people take one little blurb like that and extrapolate into an entire narrative that suits their POV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Terrible, yet they draft 18th. I guess 17 teams were tanking for Johnny Football. Or was it luck regression? Either Geno Smith improves, or they're "terrible" again. Regardless of who we give big money contracts to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbanmadmike1 Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Terrible, yet they draft 18th. I guess 17 teams were tanking for Johnny Football. Or was it luck regression? Did you see them get blown off the field in half the games last season? If you want to view everything with green glasses and think that they didn't get gifted 2 games with penalties and get 3 wins in meaningless games vs bad teams in dec, good for you. That isn't reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Verner doesn't play man-to-man. He signed in a cover 2 system that doesn't play man-to-man. Rex's corners play man-to-man. Why is anyone talking about Verner? Of course. The funniest thing about this offseason is how people take one little blurb like that and extrapolate into an entire narrative that suits their POV. Now I know why. Verner was right there in the bottom 10 CB list for yards allowed in 2012. If only we had seen that sooner we'd have signed him for sure. Frigging cheap bastard Idzig. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2013/worst-cornerback-charting-stats-2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedin Green Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 If you think Kyle Wilson played outside in 2012 you were probably napping during that season. Don't you remember his hilarious attempt to tackle Victor Cruz (playing slot WR) on that lovely 99 yard TD that ended the Jets season? Not sure what one has to do with the other, especially considering that play took place in 2011 and Wilson was lined up against Cruz in the slot. Even if you ignore that, it doesn't do anything to help your argument considering immediately after Wilson whiffed on the tackle, the supposedly irreplaceable Cromartie did the same. So did Eric Smith after that, but that should be a surprise to absolutely nobody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbanmadmike1 Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Now I know why. Verner was right there in the bottom 10 CB list for yards allowed in 2012. If only we had seen that sooner we'd have signed him for sure. Frigging cheap bastard Idzig. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2013/worst-cornerback-charting-stats-2012 So your argument is that Verner is a bad player? That's it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klecko73isGod Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Did you see them get blown off the field in half the games last season? If you want to view everything with green glasses and think that they didn't get gifted 2 games with penalties and get 3 wins in meaningless games vs bad teams in dec, good for you. That isn't reality. Half the games? Maybe half their losses, but not half their games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klecko73isGod Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Did you see them get blown off the field in half the games last season? If you want to view everything with green glasses and think that they didn't get gifted 2 games with penalties and get 3 wins in meaningless games vs bad teams in dec, good for you. That isn't reality. So? The Pats got gifted like 5 games with penalties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klecko73isGod Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 So your argument is that Verner is a bad player? That's it? No, the argument is that Verner's skillset doesn't fit what the Jets do. He's a zone corner and the Jets play man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadwayJets Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Either Geno Smith improves, or they're "terrible" again. Regardless of who we give big money contracts to. It's unfortunate, but true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbanmadmike1 Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 So? The Pats got gifted like 5 games with penalties. You've really deluded yourself into thinking that was an 8 win quality roster last year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadwayJets Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 No, the argument is that Verner's skillset doesn't fit what the Jets do. He's a zone corner and the Jets play man. And the jets didn't even consider him. That was all speculation by reporters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Did you see them get blown off the field in half the games last season? If you want to view everything with green glasses and think that they didn't get gifted 2 games with penalties and get 3 wins in meaningless games vs bad teams in dec, good for you. That isn't reality. When you have a "bottom 5" roster there are not supposed to be any "bad teams". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedin Green Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Thanks for making my point for me. Even if I were posit that it's a lateral move from Howard, it still does absolutely nothing to upgrade a flat out BAD roster. Actually, that wasn't your point at all. Your point was Howard was an "impact player" and criticized Idzik for the Jets' failure to re-sign him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbanmadmike1 Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 No, the argument is that Verner's skillset doesn't fit what the Jets do. He's a zone corner and the Jets play man. Even if you take as gospel that he couldnt' play man (I don't) he was far from the only CB available. Even if you take out the best CB in the NFL who couldn't even talk to because Woody's little boy feelings were hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klecko73isGod Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 You've really deluded yourself into thinking that was an 8 win quality roster last year? How much football do you actually watch? Do you watch anything beyond the Jets? If you did watch the amount of football I watch you'd know that about 85-90% of games these days are decided by a TD or less. Of those, 90% come down to the final possession. Often, a call one way or another impacts the outcome of the game. In the NFL, a win is a win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 You've really deluded yourself into thinking that was an 8 win quality roster last year? I love quoting this fat ****. Bill Parcells: You are what your record says you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbanmadmike1 Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Actually, that wasn't your point at all. Your point was Howard was an "impact player" and criticized Idzik for the Jets' failure to re-sign him. No. My point was that they haven't upgraded this roster nearly enough. period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 You've really deluded yourself into thinking that was an 8 win quality roster last year? There are five reasons why this may not have been a "8 win quality roster" last year. 1. Geno Smith 2. Geno Smith 3. Geno Smith 4. Lack of talent AND injuries at WR 5. Antonio Cromartie We've gotten rid of Cromartie, that's a plus. We've gotten rid of the injured, under-performing Holmes, that's a plus. We've brought in Eric Decker, that's a plus. Now, we need Geno Smith to elevate his level of play. Something that just because Sanchez never could, isn't impossible to imagine when you consider he was a rookie, who missed much of camp with an injury, and came from a system where he never even took a snap under center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 It's funny that you're so focused on the issue of Howard that you're ignoring all the other points I've made about what a terrible job this GM is doing here. Verner signed with TB, not Indy and he got an EXTREMELY reasonable contract. The jets could've beat that deal and still would've been getting a bargain. BTW when did I say that they should go out and spend on just any player as long as they are FA? Of course giving Brandon Pettigrew 5M would've been dumb because he isn't that good. I frankly, have no idea why they were interested in him and his hands of stone to begin with just like I have no idea why they wanted MJD or Donald Brown. That doesn't mean that giving other players they needed to improve this team at positions of need contracts would've been bad moves! How about knowing what FA's are worth paying and going out and paying them? I'm not back tracking on Wilson at all. He's a decent inside CB and a terrible outside CB and I haven't said anything different from that. If the Jets don't add a starting caliber CB and Wilson is forced to start outside, that is a disaster. If you want me to give them credit in going from Howard to Gacomini and that saves them 2M ,(out of 30M that they are under the cap) fine but thats as small bore as it gets. Verner's strengths as a CB are more different, from what we're looking for, as is Wilson's strengths lining up in the slot. I think they wanted Pettigrew because he's a better overall starter than Cumberland. Certainly more well-rounded. And at a reasonable deal (which Detroit eclipsed) he could be kept as a #2 TE and was more than adequate in that role. MJD and Donald Brown I'd have to think they showed some interest in as 3rd down backs because they're both superior receivers to Ivory. Plus in the event Ivory gets injured, which happens, either could step in and start for a week or a month, or at least split carries with Powell or a 2014 draft pick. But with a draft coming up, I agree in not dumping so many millions on either. As long as the guaranteed money wasn't a lot, I'd have been ok with either one. But ultimately, you want a younger guy to get touches and signing either one to a too-high contract can put a damper on that (unless the rookie is just that good right away and it's obvious). But you did backtrack on Wilson. While disparaging Wilson as a potential starter in 2014, you used year rankings stuff to gauge how he was when starting outside back in 2012. But his measurable ranking that year was significantly affected by 1 play that didn't come while he was lining up outside. When this was pointed out, the gist of it was, well that doesn't matter because that was back in 2012 and now we're in 2014. It's intellectually dishonest at best; hypocritical is more accurate. What else did I not address? That I don't agree that your opinions are facts? The worst thing that happened was in theory missing out on Schwartz while we were getting used by Davis to take our number back to Indy. After the dust settled, word got out that he never wanted to leave Indianapolis in the first place. Naturally, he and his agent kept this info hush-hush until his new contract was signed. But it's not a definite thing that we'd have gone hard after Schwartz either. He signed for what, like $4M? Say we offered him $4.5M or $5M. Then the Giants one-up us to $5.5M or more. Maybe none of it would have happened, but it's far from a lock that had we not been in negotiations with Davis, Schwartz would have been locked up here for the same money that he signed with the Giants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbanmadmike1 Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Terrible, yet they draft 18th. I guess 17 teams were tanking for Johnny Football. Or was it luck regression? The Jets would be in much better shape as a franchise if they had won a few less games, or as many games as they should've considering that they were outscored by 100 points last year. Maybe they could get an elite WR in the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbanmadmike1 Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Verner's strengths as a CB are more different, from what we're looking for, as is Wilson's strengths lining up in the slot. I think they wanted Pettigrew because he's a better overall starter than Cumberland. Certainly more well-rounded. And at a reasonable deal (which Detroit eclipsed) he could be kept as a #2 TE and was more than adequate in that role. MJD and Donald Brown I'd have to think they showed some interest in as 3rd down backs because they're both superior receivers to Ivory. Plus in the event Ivory gets injured, which happens, either could step in and start for a week or a month, or at least split carries with Powell or a 2014 draft pick. But with a draft coming up, I agree in not dumping so many millions on either. As long as the guaranteed money wasn't a lot, I'd have been ok with either one. But ultimately, you want a younger guy to get touches and signing either one to a too-high contract can put a damper on that (unless the rookie is just that good right away and it's obvious). But you did backtrack on Wilson. While disparaging Wilson as a potential starter in 2014, you used year rankings stuff to gauge how he was when starting outside back in 2012. But his measurable ranking that year was significantly affected by 1 play that didn't come while he was lining up outside. When this was pointed out, the gist of it was, well that doesn't matter because that was back in 2012 and now we're in 2014. It's intellectually dishonest at best; hypocritical is more accurate. What else did I not address? That I don't agree that your opinions are facts? The worst thing that happened was in theory missing out on Schwartz while we were getting used by Davis to take our number back to Indy. After the dust settled, word got out that he never wanted to leave Indianapolis in the first place. Naturally, he and his agent kept this info hush-hush until his new contract was signed. But it's not a definite thing that we'd have gone hard after Schwartz either. He signed for what, like $4M? Say we offered him $4.5M or $5M. Then the Giants one-up us to $5.5M or more. Maybe none of it would have happened, but it's far from a lock that had we not been in negotiations with Davis, Schwartz would have been locked up here for the same money that he signed with the Giants. Do you really think that Kyle Wilson is a league average starting outside CB or are you just arguing for the sake of it? i'm sure it's the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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