How is it possible the Jets sometimes draft decent players and they wind up sucking?

[sirlancemehlot]

What impact offensive players did they draft under Mangini?  Brad Smith?  Leon?  Chansi Stuckey?  Shonn Greene is worth more than all of those guys.  Sure they drafted Ferguson and Mangold, but impact? Nah

How is drafting two perennial pro bowl offensive lineman that have played the better part of a decade not impactful?    Revis and Harris were also excellent draft picks.  Add into the mix a ton of solid guys like Brad Smith (who won several games by himself), Shonn Greene, Dwight Lowery, Eric Smith, Leon Washington, Dustin Keller, Chansi Stuckey (who was drafted in the 7th), and Drew Coleman, plus a decent backup QB in K. Clemens---this in addition to some returning vets and free agent acquisitions like Damien Woody and Alan Faneca among others...Mangini's regime built a far superior roster than Rex Ryan's.  And far more balanced.  Westhoff had his players, Offense and Defense were built to compliment one another.  Outside of the lineman, you're right, no real super stars, but in looking at the bigger picture, you can knock Mangini for a lot of things, but he had a knack for getting the right guys on his team, particularly in the middle rounds.  

[Matt39]

How about letting Randy Thomas and Kareem Mckenzie just walk. Coles too. 

[#27TheDominator]

How is drafting two perennial pro bowl offensive lineman that have played the better part of a decade not impactful?    Revis and Harris were also excellent draft picks.  Add into the mix a ton of solid guys like Brad Smith (who won several games by himself), Shonn Greene, Dwight Lowery, Eric Smith, Leon Washington, Dustin Keller, Chansi Stuckey (who was drafted in the 7th), and Drew Coleman, plus a decent backup QB in K. Clemens---this in addition to some returning vets and free agent acquisitions like Damien Woody and Alan Faneca among others...Mangini's regime built a far superior roster than Rex Ryan's.  And far more balanced.  Westhoff had his players, Offense and Defense were built to compliment one another.  Outside of the lineman, you're right, no real super stars, but in looking at the bigger picture, you can knock Mangini for a lot of things, but he had a knack for getting the right guys on his team, particularly in the middle rounds.  

 

Shonn Greene was picked in 2009.  So was Slauson.  Kerley, Shonn Greene and Bilal Powell > Stuckey, Brad Smith and Leon.  

 

I get the idea that D'Brick and Mangold are good players, but D'Brick is steady, not impact and I just don't see Mangold as a huge impact.  Hell he might have been a downgrade from Mawae.  You are fighting with my post by listing defensive players and FAs when that was not what I responded to.  I know the coach has input, but I still dispute this whole Mangini/Rex regime sh*t.  Isn't the GM supposed to do more than just negotiate contracts?  

[Sperm Edwards]

I'm just trying to remember these several games that Brad Smith supposedly won all by himself, 11 on 1.

[SoFlaJets]

Remember: Lamont_Jordan_Rules

[Sperm Edwards]

How about letting Randy Thomas and Kareem Mckenzie just walk. Coles too.

 

Well that's not really what happened with any of those players. In each case, the Jets made multi-year offers to the players.

 

Thomas was solid but not beastly. Washington paid him like he was the #1 guard in the NFL headed for certain 1st ballot HOF status. Though their strengths are different, value-wise it's today's equivalent of paying like $9M per year every year for Justin Blalock. 

 

McKenzie, who we all loved as a player, was a very good RT for us (and for the Giants). But the Giants' offer was more than all but the very best 3 left tackles (Pace, Ogden, Jones) were getting. He was the Giants' consolation prize after bowing out of trying for Orlando Pace. It was considered a groundbreaking contract at the time for a player like McKenzie.

 

The contract that Coles got from Washington was insanity (as was his then-unfathomable $13M signing bonus). Good for Coles, bad for the team that signed him and paid him more than he was even asking for from the Jets. Bradway was a buffoon of a GM, but here's his quote from that signing: "It is extremely rare for a team to pay more than a player asks," Jets general manager Terry Bradway said. "In this case, it did happen." Had we matched the deal, we'd have not only paid him insanity dollars, but we'd have also passed up on Washington's 1st round pick (and then we wouldn't have had the ammo to trade up for Dewayne Robertson!).

Luckily the Jets came to Washington's rescue by trading them Santana Moss for Coles 2 years later, when Washington was otherwise going to be forced to release him outright (he was due some even-nuttier amount in year 3 of his deal IIRC).

We didn't simply let them walk. Each of them signed kookie deals. You have a problem with it? That's why you don't sign 29 year old RBs and meh QBs to record-setting contracts.

[Sperm Edwards]

Remember: Lamont_Jordan_Rules

Don't forget we replaced him with Derrick Blaylock.

[#27TheDominator]

 

Well that's not really what happened with any of those players. In each case, the Jets made multi-year offers to the players.

 

Thomas was solid but not beastly. Washington paid him like he was the #1 guard in the NFL headed for certain 1st ballot HOF status. Though their strengths are different, value-wise it's today's equivalent of paying like $9M per year every year for Justin Blalock. 

 

McKenzie, who we all loved as a player, was a very good RT for us (and for the Giants). But the Giants' offer was more than all but the very best 3 left tackles (Pace, Ogden, Jones) were getting. He was the Giants' consolation prize after bowing out of trying for Orlando Pace. It was considered a groundbreaking contract at the time for a player like McKenzie.

 

The contract that Coles got from Washington was insanity (as was his then-unfathomable $13M signing bonus). Good for Coles, bad for the team that signed him and paid him more than he was even asking for from the Jets. Bradway was a buffoon of a GM, but here's his quote from that signing: "It is extremely rare for a team to pay more than a player asks," Jets general manager Terry Bradway said. "In this case, it did happen." Had we matched the deal, we'd have not only paid him insanity dollars, but we'd have also passed up on Washington's 1st round pick (and then we wouldn't have had the ammo to trade up for Dewayne Robertson!).

Luckily the Jets came to Washington's rescue by trading them Santana Moss for Coles 2 years later, when Washington was otherwise going to be forced to release him outright (he was due some even-nuttier amount in year 3 of his deal IIRC).

We didn't simply let them walk. Each of them signed kookie deals. You have a problem with it? That's why you don't sign 29 year old RBs and meh QBs to record-setting contracts.

 

The thing that always bothered me was the constant swapping of schemes without regard for personnel.  At least Rex did well with what was here.  When Mangini took over it was time to blow the whole thing up, so that wasn't bad. OTOH, going to the cover who from Parcells resulted is our dumping two top cover corners and giving up a highly thought of (at the time) G for the priviledge.  When Parcells came, he didn't feel that Hugh Green was big enough for his system and then spent years trying to get a pass rusher and bemoaning our lack of one.  The good news to me is that the offense can be gutted, but the D has some nice pieces for anyone.  I know people on here want to go 4-3, but I don't see it.  They have 2-3 good looking 3-4 NTs and that is the biggest problems.  Mo is a bit big for 4-3 DE.  OTOH, it might help Coples and Sheldon.  It will be interesting to see what defensive coach they bring in.  Funny that Sutton started getting so much respect last season.  

[Sperm Edwards]

The thing that always bothered me was the constant swapping of schemes without regard for personnel.  At least Rex did well with what was here.  When Mangini took over it was time to blow the whole thing up, so that wasn't bad. OTOH, going to the cover who from Parcells resulted is our dumping two top cover corners and giving up a highly thought of (at the time) G for the priviledge.  When Parcells came, he didn't feel that Hugh Green was big enough for his system and then spent years trying to get a pass rusher and bemoaning our lack of one.  The good news to me is that the offense can be gutted, but the D has some nice pieces for anyone.  I know people on here want to go 4-3, but I don't see it.  They have 2-3 good looking 3-4 NTs and that is the biggest problems.  Mo is a bit big for 4-3 DE.  OTOH, it might help Coples and Sheldon.  It will be interesting to see what defensive coach they bring in.  Funny that Sutton started getting so much respect last season.

You mean cover who from Herm? Think you mean Herm.

And Hugh Douglas.

I think Mo could still work as a 4-3 end. He's far larger than the physical prototype but that doesn't mean he won't be excellent at it. He doesn't merely occupy blockers for the LBers to make plays. Someone like DeVito I'd agree. But Mo can rush the passer and that ability should only be enhanced with another full-time lineman.

[#27TheDominator]

You mean cover who from Herm? Think you mean Herm.

And Hugh Douglas.

I think Mo could still work as a 4-3 end. He's far larger than the physical prototype but that doesn't mean he won't be excellent at it. He doesn't merely occupy blockers for the LBers to make plays. Someone like DeVito I'd agree. But Mo can rush the passer and that ability should only be enhanced with another full-time lineman.

 

I meant going from Parcells to Herm. 

 

Mo will probably be fine in either setting.  I think we would have a glut of huge DTs, though I guess they could let Ellis walk   LBs would need a complete revamping with only Davis fitting, but I guess that is pretty necessary anyway.  Personally, I like this D, but I'm not sure who would be running it.  

[sirlancemehlot]

I'm just trying to remember these several games that Brad Smith supposedly won all by himself, 11 on 1.

I remember him destroying the bengals on offense and special teams.  He put the Jets O in excellent field position and was among tops in the league at KO returns (of course that was pre-rule change).  There's a reason he got such a lucrative contract we couldn't match when he hit FA.  Same for Leon. Regardless, these were real contributors to successful teams.

[sirlancemehlot]

Shonn Greene was picked in 2009.  So was Slauson.  Kerley, Shonn Greene and Bilal Powell > Stuckey, Brad Smith and Leon.  

 

I get the idea that D'Brick and Mangold are good players, but D'Brick is steady, not impact and I just don't see Mangold as a huge impact.  Hell he might have been a downgrade from Mawae.  You are fighting with my post by listing defensive players and FAs when that was not what I responded to.  I know the coach has input, but I still dispute this whole Mangini/Rex regime sh*t.  Isn't the GM supposed to do more than just negotiate contracts?  

Yeah the FA and defensive players I mentioned were broader and didn't pertain directly to you post nor your point.  I would disagree that Brick and Mangold aren't imp[act players though.  Pull them out of the lineup and see what happens.  We dropped four games a couple of years ago when Mangold went down and we had nobody to fill his shoes.  They may not score TD's, but neither does anyone else if your Oline is talentless.  See: NY Giants.

[Sperm Edwards]

I remember him destroying the bengals on offense and special teams.  He put the Jets O in excellent field position and was among tops in the league at KO returns (of course that was pre-rule change).  There's a reason he got such a lucrative contract we couldn't match when he hit FA.  Same for Leon. Regardless, these were real contributors to successful teams.

I liked him plenty when he was here, but that contract Buffalo gave him was duh duh stewpid.

Ditto for Leon.

[jorge o8]

I will offer my services to this team for a lower rate lol I can draft better then anybody in this team yes the scout team need to go!!!!

[frankiepapa]

I remember him destroying the bengals on offense and special teams. He put the Jets O in excellent field position and was among tops in the league at KO returns (of course that was pre-rule change). There's a reason he got such a lucrative contract we couldn't match when he hit FA. Same for Leon. Regardless, these were real contributors to successful teams.

Don't forget the game in Pittsburgh in 2011 in the regular season where he took the opening kickoff for a td and set the tone for us winning that game

[#27TheDominator]

Yeah the FA and defensive players I mentioned were broader and didn't pertain directly to you post nor your point.  I would disagree that Brick and Mangold aren't imp[act players though.  Pull them out of the lineup and see what happens.  We dropped four games a couple of years ago when Mangold went down and we had nobody to fill his shoes.  They may not score TD's, but neither does anyone else if your Oline is talentless.  See: NY Giants.

 

Fair enough.  I meant D'Brick and Mangold as in you could argue them.  I would argue back that Mangold is allegedly the best (or top 5) NFL center.  Replace him with Jonathan Goodwin or Kevin Mawae (during Mangold's first few years) and where are you?  Those were our choices at the time.  Now try that with a top 5 QB, or even WR.

[ebonix]

Kyle Wilson was picked about 30-35 spots too high. If he was an early 3rd rounder, we'd all be like, hey that Kyle Wilson sure is steady in the slot. 

.... that's about it. Kyle was picked too high, thanks to Rex and our crack scouting dept. ( Bradway..?)    also, John the terminator Conner

 

 was taken ahead of the likes of Antonio Brown and Greg Hardy it's disappointing but for a 5th round selection I can't be too upset with this selection.

These scouts and FO guys get paid well and they have been screwing up for years... lets tell Woody.!

[HessStation]

.... that's about it. Kyle was picked too high, thanks to Rex and our crack scouting dept. ( Bradway..?)    also, John the terminator Conner

 

 was taken ahead of the likes of Antonio Brown and Greg Hardy it's disappointing but for a 5th round selection I can't be too upset with this selection.

These scouts and FO guys get paid well and they have been screwing up for years... lets tell Woody.!

 

Yeah and by that, btw, I'm not even saying Kyle Wilson is good. But I'm pretty sure through whatever those metrics they use, he's been a solid nickle back when covering slot WRs over the last couple years. His ratings getting blown to sh*t when he's outside the hash, I believe. Just saying, if he was a 3rd round pick, he'd be getting much more of a pass.