Draft Elimination Rnd 1: nyjunc vs. BallinPB

[Jetsfan80]

RND 1;  @nyjunc vs. @BallinPB

JN: vote on who's all time drafted team you feel would win the match up.... you're assuming each player is entering this match up in their prime.

 

nyjunc

QB Otto Graham

RB Tiki Barber

RB Lenny Moore

WR Don Hutson

WR Gary Clark

TE Shannon Sharpe

OT Anthony Munoz

OG Bob Kuechenberg

C Tom Nalen

OG Lou Creekmur

OT Marvin Powell

DE Willie Davis

DT Randy White

DT Ted Washington

DE Andy Robustelli

LB Joe Schmidt

LB Chris Spielman

LB Chad Brown

CB Darrelle Revis

CB Hanford Dixon

S Nolan Cromwell

S Dwight Hicks

 

BallinPB

 

Offense

QB Troy Aikman

RB OJ Simpson

WR Jerry Rice

WR Rod Smith

WR Harold Carmichael

TE Wesley Walls

OL Bob Brown

OL David DeCastro

OL Alex Mack

OL Joe Lamielleure

OL Chris Hinton

Defense (4-3)

DL Gino Marchetti

DL Roger Brown

DL Steve McMichael

DL Jim Marshall

LB Derrick Brooks

LB London Fletcher

LB Dave Robinson

DB Paul Krause

DB Carnell Lake

DB Dennis Smith

DB Ken Riley

[Long Island Leprechaun]

Geezus. Not a big fan of Troy Aikman, so I'll give the nod to Otto. Prefer Ballin's WR's by a good margin, and OJ is superior to either Barber or Moore. Not clear why nyjunc put two receiving backs in the same backfield... some flex would toward a complementary back would have been worthwhile, I think. Ballin's offensive line was slightly better overall -- stronger across the whole front. Give the nod to Ballin's LB's as well, but not thrilled with either group. Secondaries? About even.

[JustInFudge]

This one is tight! 

I'm really not sure...

 

[nyjunc]

QBs: Otto Graham vs. Troy Aikman

official 1st team all pro selections:

Graham: 7(in 10 seasons)

Aikman 0(in 12 seasons)

championships:

Graham: led Cle to 7 titles, led Cle to championship game every season of his career. all before Jim Brown got there.  Jim came around 2 yrs after Otto and would win 1 championship appearing in 3 title games.

Aikman: 3 titles

pass yds:

Graham: led 5x

Aikman: 0

pass TDs:

Graham: led 3x

Aikman, 0

slamdunk winner for Graham.

 

RBs:

Lenny Moore/Tiki Barber vs. OJ Simpson:

Oj was certainly the flashier back, his slashing style could intimidate anyone.

official 1st team all pros:

Lenny/Tiki: 6

OJ 5

rush yds:

OJ led 4 times

Lenny/Tiki 0

total yds from scrimmage:

Lenny/Tiki led 3x

OJ led 3x

yds per attempt:

Lenny/Tiki led 4x

OJ 1x

rush TDs:

L/T led 1x

Oj led 2x

1,000 yd seasons:

L/T 6

OJ 5

seasons w/ 40 or more recs:

L/T 14

OJ ZERO

Oj was the best pure runner but the 2 all around RBs account for more production than OJ.

edge: Lenny/Tiki

 

WRs:

On paper we think Rice is the best of all time but no WR dominated their era like Din Hutson:

Hutson played 11 seasons

Rice 21 seasons

recs:

Hutson led league 8 of 11 seasons, 73%

Rice led 2 of 21, .1%

rec TDs:

Hutson led 9 of 11, 82%

Rice 6 of 21, 29%

rec yds:

Hutson led 7 of 11, 64%

Rice 6 of 21, 29%

official 1st team all pro selections:

Hutson 8 of 11 seasons, 73%

Rice 10 of 21 seasons, 48%

 

I know it will be hard to overlook seeing Rice but no WR dominated their era like Don Hutson did.

other WRs

Gary Clark vs. Harold Carmichael/Rod Smith:

official 1st team all pro:

Clark 1

HC/RS: ZERO

 

TE:

Shannon Sharpe vs. Wesley Walls.  do we even need to embarrass ourselves by entraining this comparison?

4x 1st team all pro, 3x SB champ Shannon vs a guy who never had more than 822 rec yds in a season. Shannon had 3 1,000 yd seasons and a 4th at 995.

 

OLs:

Anthony Munoz, Bob Kuechenberg, Tom Nalen, Lou Creekmur, Marvin Powell

21 official 1st team all pro selections btw them(each one earned at least 1 selection)

vs.

Bob Brown, David DeCastro, Alex Mack, Joe DeLamielleure, Chris Hinton

11 official 1st team all pro selections(Mack has never made 1st team all pro)

 

I have some meetings today so I can't go over D but what D could stop this O? certainly not the one in this matchup today.

[peebag]

This is the tightest grouping yet - hard to pin but I'd go w/ Junc - that defense is pretty tough.

[BallinPB]

17 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

QBs: Otto Graham vs. Troy Aikman

official 1st team all pro selections:

Graham: 7(in 10 seasons)

Aikman 0(in 12 seasons)

championships:

Graham: led Cle to 7 titles, led Cle to championship game every season of his career. all before Jim Brown got there.  Jim came around 2 yrs after Otto and would win 1 championship appearing in 3 title games.

Aikman: 3 titles

pass yds:

Graham: led 5x

Aikman: 0

pass TDs:

Graham: led 3x

Aikman, 0

slamdunk winner for Graham.

 

RBs:

Lenny Moore/Tiki Barber vs. OJ Simpson:

Oj was certainly the flashier back, his slashing style could intimidate anyone.

official 1st team all pros:

Lenny/Tiki: 6

OJ 5

rush yds:

OJ led 4 times

Lenny/Tiki 0

total yds from scrimmage:

Lenny/Tiki led 3x

OJ led 3x

yds per attempt:

Lenny/Tiki led 4x

OJ 1x

rush TDs:

L/T led 1x

Oj led 2x

1,000 yd seasons:

L/T 6

OJ 5

seasons w/ 40 or more recs:

L/T 14

OJ ZERO

Oj was the best pure runner but the 2 all around RBs account for more production than OJ.

edge: Lenny/Tiki

 

WRs:

On paper we think Rice is the best of all time but no WR dominated their era like Din Hutson:

Hutson played 11 seasons

Rice 21 seasons

recs:

Hutson led league 8 of 11 seasons, 73%

Rice led 2 of 21, .1%

rec TDs:

Hutson led 9 of 11, 82%

Rice 6 of 21, 29%

rec yds:

Hutson led 7 of 11, 64%

Rice 6 of 21, 29%

official 1st team all pro selections:

Hutson 8 of 11 seasons, 73%

Rice 10 of 21 seasons, 48%

 

I know it will be hard to overlook seeing Rice but no WR dominated their era like Don Hutson did.

other WRs

Gary Clark vs. Harold Carmichael/Rod Smith:

official 1st team all pro:

Clark 1

HC/RS: ZERO

 

TE:

Shannon Sharpe vs. Wesley Walls.  do we even need to embarrass ourselves by entraining this comparison?

4x 1st team all pro, 3x SB champ Shannon vs a guy who never had more than 822 rec yds in a season. Shannon had 3 1,000 yd seasons and a 4th at 995.

 

OLs:

Anthony Munoz, Bob Kuechenberg, Tom Nalen, Lou Creekmur, Marvin Powell

21 official 1st team all pro selections btw them(each one earned at least 1 selection)

vs.

Bob Brown, David DeCastro, Alex Mack, Joe DeLamielleure, Chris Hinton

11 official 1st team all pro selections(Mack has never made 1st team all pro)

 

I have some meetings today so I can't go over D but what D could stop this O? certainly not the one in this matchup today.

I like how you tried to spin this your way here.  The problem with this is alot of your guys are old school football players before modern era.  They werent as athletic back then and the league didnt have as many teams.  So you trying to justify your team is better by mostly naming 1st team all pros is null and void.  My offense is superior.  I'm killing you at the skill positions.  Our defenses are closer but my linebackers are filled with great all around players I think I have the edge there.  

[nyjunc]

1 minute ago, BallinPB said:

I like how you tried to spin this your way here.  The problem with this is alot of your guys are old school football players before modern era.  They werent as athletic back then and the league didnt have as many teams.  So you trying to justify your team is better by mostly naming 1st team all pros is null and void.  My offense is superior.  I'm killing you at the skill positions.  Our defenses are closer but my linebackers are filled with great all around players I think I have the edge there.  

Obviously I'm going to slant it in my direction but you can't discount all pros.  Speed and athleticism have nothing to do with this. Its about how these players played against their era.  Athletically hutson can't compare to rice but he dominated his era like no one else.  If we are using athleticism then all the current players would dominate the players from previous eras

[BigO]

35 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

QBs: Otto Graham vs. Troy Aikman

Nyjunc has a lot of ole skool players 40-50’s like I did. If you compare those players to modern ones(performance wise) they are awesome. BUT people are not doing that since it would require research. Rice, Smith, who was a burner as well and Carmichael who would be a headache in the red zone. There’s only 1 Revis not 3. And his run duo is just a strange combo. Airkman was a winner and a great all time game manager. Very accurate and smart. At first sight, Ballin is a runaway but if you RESEARCH those ole skool players it’s a lot closer than meets the eye. Still, as a great as Graham was in his era, I don’t see the explosiveness he’d need to take advantage of his greatness. Edge - PB

Correction: how does PB have 3 safties? Who’s playing CB besides Riley who belongs in the HOF?

 

[nyjunc]

1 minute ago, BigO said:

Nyjunc has a lot of ole skool players 40-50’s like I did. If you compare those players to modern ones(performance wise) they are awesome. BUT people are not doing that since it would require research. Plus Nyjunc has 3 safties and 1 cb. No way he’d be able to cover  Rice, Smith, who was a burner as well and Carmichael who would be a headache in the red zone. There’s only 1 Revis not 3. And his run duo is just a strange combo. Airkman was a winner and a great all time game manager. Very accurate and smart. At first sight, Ballin is a runaway but if you RESEARCH those ole skool players it’s a lot closer than meets the eye. Still, as a great as Graham was in his era, I don’t see the explosiveness he’d need to take advantage of his greatness. Edge - PB

Hanford Dixon was a 2 time 1st team all pro cornerback so I have the greatest cover corner ever (who could eliminate rice) then an outstanding #2 corner

[BallinPB]

Just now, nyjunc said:

Obviously I'm going to slant it in my direction but you can't discount all pros.  Speed and athleticism have nothing to do with this. Its about how these players played against their era.  Athletically hutson can't compare to rice but he dominated his era like no one else.  If we are using athleticism then all the current players would dominate the players from previous eras

I understand what you're saying also but at the same time people can't just look past that fact.  He may have dominated that era but we all know the competition was not as great.  

[nyjunc]

Just now, BallinPB said:

I understand what you're saying also but at the same time people can't just look past that fact.  He may have dominated that era but we all know the competition was not as great.  

I didn't expect to get votes but we have to separate the eras. We can't compare players of 1950 to today, it's unfair. We can only compare what they did against their era

[BigO]

1 minute ago, nyjunc said:

Hanford Dixon was a 2 time 1st team all pro cornerback so I have the greatest cover corner ever (who could eliminate rice) then an outstanding #2 corner

Lol nobody is shutting down Rice especially a guy like Dixon who was very good but wasn’t a HOF cb. Even Revis whonI consider the best ever, would have his hands full with Rice.

[nyjunc]

3 minutes ago, BigO said:

Lol nobody is shutting down Rice especially a guy like Dixon who was very good but wasn’t a HOF cb. Even Revis whonI consider the best ever, would have his hands full with Rice.

Revis is shutting down rice like he shut down every top wr at his peak. Dixon would not shut down rice but he's a great #2 opposite Revis

[BigO]

12 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

I didn't expect to get votes but we have to separate the eras. We can't compare players of 1950 to today, it's unfair. We can only compare what they did against their era

Totally agree BUT it won’t be done. I was assured they would be but they have NOT. I could do the same measuring thing you did and it would blow your mind. Only HessStation was able to see it. We should have just excluded everyone before the Jim Brown era. 

[BigO]

1 minute ago, nyjunc said:

Revis is shutting down rice like he shut down every top wr at his peak. Dixon would not shut down rice but he's a great #2 opposite Revis

Rice > Moss and Moss made Revis look silly. 

[JustInFudge]

Not going to lie, this is pubic hair close IMO.

I could go either way but nyjunc has players that I just absolutely hate; Barber, Revis, Sharpe. 

Where as BP has players I loved: Brooks, Rice, Fletcher, Walls, Smith

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, JiF said:

Not going to lie, this is pubic hair close IMO.

I could go either way but nyjunc has players that I just absolutely hate; Barber, Revis, Sharpe. 

Where as BP has players I loved: Brooks, Rice, Fletcher, Walls, Smith 

Brooks was an awesome pick.  A LB who can cover is huge in this format. 

[JustInFudge]

1 minute ago, BigO said:

Rice > Moss and Moss made Revis look silly. 

Stevie Johnson used to spin Revis around.  Percy Harvin ate his lunch.  Sammy Watkins did whatever he wanted on him.

So overrated....

[JustInFudge]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

Brooks was an awesome pick.  A LB who can cover is huge in this format. 

Brooks was amazing and an absolute class act.  Dude is just a great person. 

[BigO]

Just now, JiF said:

Stevie Johnson used to spin Revis around.  Percy Harvin ate his lunch.  Sammy Watkins did whatever he wanted on him.

So overrated....

Revis was great for a few years - best ever at one juncture. But nobody stops Moss or Rice. Nobody.

[BigO]

5 minutes ago, BigO said:

Totally agree BUT it won’t be done. I was assured they would be but they have NOT. I could do the same measuring thing you did and it would blow your mind. Only HessStation was able to see it. We should have just excluded everyone before the Jim Brown era. 

Just to give you a glimpse - Weinmeister DT was the Joe Greene of his era, Tunnell the Krause of his era ( Krause 81 int’s, Tunnell 79 - 79!!!! In an era that was dominated by the run. And on and on. 

[Jetsfan80]

Note that this matchup will end tomorrow at 2 PM EST. 

[nyjunc]

21 minutes ago, BigO said:

Revis was great for a few years - best ever at one juncture. But nobody stops Moss or Rice. Nobody.

Except for the fact Revis dominated Moss in their matchups

[BallinPB]

40 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Except for the fact Revis dominated Moss in their matchups

[JustInFudge]

5 minutes ago, BallinPB said:

Hamstring bro, hamstring. 

[JustInFudge]

Pretty surprised how lopsided this one is...

pretty damn close IMO.  The hate drove me.

[BallinPB]

2 minutes ago, JiF said:

Pretty surprised how lopsided this one is...

pretty damn close IMO.  The hate drove me.

I'm not.  When I looked at our matchup not to toot my own horn but I knew I was going to win (even though there is still time left).  Most of us don't want to take the time to research vintage players who we will have very limited knowledge on.  Even if you do happen to research them, all you have to go off is stats which doesn't speak volumes for players in that era.

[JustInFudge]

14 minutes ago, BallinPB said:

I'm not.  When I looked at our matchup not to toot my own horn but I knew I was going to win (even though there is still time left).  Most of us don't want to take the time to research vintage players who we will have very limited knowledge on.  Even if you do happen to research them, all you have to go off is stats which doesn't speak volumes for players in that era.

That's fair and I think it's happening in my match up.  I thought my D was loaded with all time talent but it's not getting near the love I expected.  As I mentioned in my thread, my LB'ers are all HOF'ers who have damn near 30 probowls, 20 1st team all pros, 3 DPOY awards between them and just some mean as mofo's...but nobody is talking about them with even with Singletary in the middle.  

 

[Long Island Leprechaun]

2 hours ago, BigO said:

Totally agree BUT it won’t be done. I was assured they would be but they have NOT. I could do the same measuring thing you did and it would blow your mind. Only HessStation was able to see it. We should have just excluded everyone before the Jim Brown era. 

I think the last point is a good one. There should be some attempt to assure some consistency by making a cut off. The problem is that football is not like baseball where you can individualize performance. Once you put Creekmur on a line with Munoz and Powell or Kuechenberg, there's no way to make that coherent. It doesn't work. I think that's why we're tending to lean toward skill players on both sides of the ball in the analysis -- it's an attempt to individualize performance, even though that's questionable too, since the style of players changed to suit the changes of rules and schemes.

[#27TheDominator]

2 hours ago, BigO said:

Just to give you a glimpse - Weinmeister DT was the Joe Greene of his era, Tunnell the Krause of his era ( Krause 81 int’s, Tunnell 79 - 79!!!! In an era that was dominated by the run. And on and on. 

When Krause is your "modern" player you should know where your problem lies.  He retired in '79.  Most of these guys weren't born yet.  Hell, I think Josh McCown wasn't even born yet.

[BigO]

1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

When Krause is your "modern" player you should know where your problem lies.  He retired in '79.  Most of these guys weren't born yet.  Hell, I think Josh McCown wasn't even born yet.

Krause was so damn good. I remember him. He was like a thief in the night. Not a very physical guy but the true definition of a free safety. I picked Tunnell because he had 79 int’s in an era where they didn’t throw the ball much and he was rated as the top FS in many charts. BUT I never saw him play just like so many here never saw Krause. Same goes for Jim Brown. I don’t believe any of us saw him play. But he’s still considered the best RB. Some now argue though. But you still can’t disavow his greatness. 

[BigO]

2 hours ago, BallinPB said:

I'm not.  When I looked at our matchup not to toot my own horn but I knew I was going to win (even though there is still time left).  Most of us don't want to take the time to research vintage players who we will have very limited knowledge on.  Even if you do happen to research them, all you have to go off is stats which doesn't speak volumes for players in that era.

I’ve picked every winner thus far now that I have a sense of how votes are being figured. Except for me ?

[Long Island Leprechaun]

7 minutes ago, BigO said:

Krause was so damn good. I remember him. He was like a thief in the night. Not a very physical guy but the true definition of a free safety. I picked Tunnell because he had 79 int’s in an era where they didn’t throw the ball much and he was rated as the top FS in many charts. BUT I never saw him play just like so many here never saw Krause. Same goes for Jim Brown. I don’t believe any of us saw him play. But he’s still considered the best RB. Some now argue though. But you still can’t disavow his greatness. 

I saw Brown, but I was too young to appreciate what I was seeing. As a Viking fan when I was a kid, I remember Krause, but frankly the secondary got a bit lost with the enormous focus on the defensive line for the Vikings. He was a bit taken for granted in those days. But he was a great safety. I have vivid memories of the Detroit Lions in early to mid sixties -- Milt Plum, anyone?the Chicago Bears, and of course the Packers. The Packers seemed like they were at another level. So many great players I have, for some reason, a very clear memory of Max McGee catching a pass in the end zone. But the tandem of Jim Taylor and Paul Hornung was special.

[BigO]

45 minutes ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

I saw Brown, but I was too young to appreciate what I was seeing. As a Viking fan when I was a kid, I remember Krause, but frankly the secondary got a bit lost with the enormous focus on the defensive line for the Vikings. He was a bit taken for granted in those days. But he was a great safety. I have vivid memories of the Detroit Lions in early to mid sixties -- Milt Plum, anyone?the Chicago Bears, and of course the Packers. The Packers seemed like they were at another level. So many great players I have, for some reason, a very clear memory of Max McGee catching a pass in the end zone. But the tandem of Jim Taylor and Paul Hornung was special.

The Packers were my introduction into football.  Was just around 7 and even then knew I was witnessing something quite extraordinary. And it wasn’t because the announcers were yapping about how great they were. They had an aura about them that you knew it was something you’d probably never see again. 

[Jetsfan80]

BUMP.  Less than 4 hours left on this matchup.