I don't necessarily want to take a WR round 1....

[Barton]

Jets badly need another receiver with top end ability. Preferably a red zone threat, like what Braylon Edwards offered while he was here. I would definitely take another with our 1st rd pick, if needed.

[Rhg1084]

 

this kid is my the guy I want as of today in the draft. Knowing Jets luck they’ll beat Miami Sunday and ruin any shot we may have at actually getting him. But if we do, imagine him in this offense with GW, Breece and Elijah? You could put any competent QB back there and he should have a lot of success.

[Dax89]

5 hours ago, Rhg1084 said:

 

this kid is my the guy I want as of today in the draft. Knowing Jets luck they’ll beat Miami Sunday and ruin any shot we may have at actually getting him. But if we do, imagine him in this offense with GW, Breece and Elijah? You could put any competent QB back there and he should have a lot of success.

NGL Mims has given me a complex similar to what people have with USC quarterbacks over big-bodied Big 12 WRs.

[Paradis]

14 hours ago, derp said:

Realize I’m responding to you and @Paradis in a different conversation but if you guys think Johnston is like Kevin White then Jeremiah is going to have him like top five…kidding, kind of.

For the record i'm not saying that. Just acknowledging that my mind went there when most of the TCU plays i catch him making are when he's shot out of a cannon running free. Doesn't mean that's all he is, i haven't sat down with purpose to watch his games. It's the big-12 right? You're not getting a lot of quality reps that show up on saturday at 6pm or when you cut to a game to watch a series. 

[Chrebetfan80]

20 hours ago, derp said:

If I’m reading that right you see things staying the same because you see MLF sticking around right? I don’t think I believe he’d adjust stuff either. That said, I could see Woody meddling a little and saying listen something needs to happen if the team at best lost five of the last six (maybe the last six) and something needs to happen.

Saleh is stubborn with some stuff but he also tends to say all the right things and then not necessarily act in accordance with what he’s said - thinking in particular with Zach Wilson. So I do kind of believe in one way or another a holistic look at the offense will take place and if they find MLF just isn’t getting it done I could see going in a different direction. No clue what that direction would be, but honestly the offense is lacking identity and inflexible pieces enough they could scrap it.

Also a very distinct possibility that he looks at personnel like he did with Ulbrich and says this is what’s holding the offense back so MLF sticks. That said, one of my big beefs with this offense and with the Zach Wilson pick at the time was that this offense is supposed to make things easy on the QB. I could see Saleh looking at something like Purdy in SF and saying listen this just isn’t working. I don’t think it happens but I’m not ready to rule it out either.

I do believe Lafleur stays.  Whether the offensive flexibility changes is what remains to be seen.  I am very interested to see what coaches are brought on staff this offseason, becase everything i have heard is that they will be bringing in offensive coaches that will help to ensure the development of zach and to fix the offense.  

In my mind im envisioning something similar to when we brought in Tom Moore to be an offensive consultant.  It wont be a full whole sale change, but some veterans will be brought in to offer new perspective on the offense while also bringing in guys that will actually coach our quarterbacks instead of just pretending.  

 

 

[derp]

1 hour ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

I do believe Lafleur stays.  Whether the offensive flexibility changes is what remains to be seen.  I am very interested to see what coaches are brought on staff this offseason, becase everything i have heard is that they will be bringing in offensive coaches that will help to ensure the development of zach and to fix the offense.  

In my mind im envisioning something similar to when we brought in Tom Moore to be an offensive consultant.  It wont be a full whole sale change, but some veterans will be brought in to offer new perspective on the offense while also bringing in guys that will actually coach our quarterbacks instead of just pretending.  

 

 

Well that is sobering, I could see why you'd think everyone is gone in a year if that's how you see things playing out. I feel like if that's the case they're better off just starting over this year.

Assuming minimal offensive flexibility change and with the understanding that the offense is still a major weak spot on this team, what do you think would be the best ways to move the offense forward a little via the draft (and I suppose free agent)?

[Chrebetfan80]

2 minutes ago, derp said:

Well that is sobering, I could see why you'd think everyone is gone in a year if that's how you see things playing out. I feel like if that's the case they're better off just starting over this year.

Assuming minimal offensive flexibility change and with the understanding that the offense is still a major weak spot on this team, what do you think would be the best ways to move the offense forward a little via the draft (and I suppose free agent)?

i mean thats a tough question, I really havent had a chance to dive in too much because of all of the coaching responsibilities on my end, but initially there were guys that I liked for this offense and for what we are doing. 

I think WR is still the way to go in the first 2 rounds of the draft.  Whether we go one in rd 1 or 2 i dont think we can emphasize the need for more weapons enough to get this offense on track.  YES the OL needs to be fixed, but we cannot just keep throwin 1st rd picks at it.  Would i be mad with a OT in RD 1 and a WR in 2? no im fine with it, but I just think OL is something thats easier to get good talent late than it is WR. 

WR wise initially im looking at a few guys. 

I think Rashee Rice is a good blend of size and toughness.  6'2 203 i believe he's listed around.  He's a physical presence on deep balls, competitive as hell, just seems to me to be a little bit of a sob when the balls in the air. He's not going to blow past a guy and hes better in short areas than stretching the field, but he can win 1v1 jump balls, he's a big presence in the middle of the field on Digs and crossings.  I just really like the way he plays the game from a physical standpoint.  Also, ive said this before, I LOVE guys that produce.  96 catches for 1300+ yds?  Any time you can catch that many balls, i dont care who you play, that tells me something. 

I like josh downs the more i watch him.  Not going to give us anything different than Moore would for the offense but at the end of the day we seem to like that style of player more than guys that are good at one particular thing so he's a guy that I think fits our mold.  He's good in the screen game, good in the short to intermediate area.  Also foudn this interesting, he's converted 72% of contested catch situations.  That tells me something.  Also sticks to my production rule 94 catches and over 1000k yards, i love experience.  

People will say im crazy but I like JSN a lot.  Maybe he's not worth the hype that was built around him, but the kid can play the WR position. Is he a dynamic dangerous #1 top 10 weapon? no but im not drafting him to be.  If im drafting him im getting a very very good player that will be in my wr rotation for years because he can be moved around and his feel for route running is excellent.  OSU Wr's are just trained too well (give credit to hartline who is basically in my mind the best wr coach in the nation right now).  Great body control, good jobs on all his stems and his break points.  He needs to get off press better and he's not going to wow you with his speed for acceleration but the kid can play. He just strikes me as a guy that is going to come in, lunch pale type player, and be a very reliable WR.  He also fits this offense very well schematically.  

 

[Rhg1084]

 

[derp]

12 minutes ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

i mean thats a tough question, I really havent had a chance to dive in too much because of all of the coaching responsibilities on my end, but initially there were guys that I liked for this offense and for what we are doing. 

I think WR is still the way to go in the first 2 rounds of the draft.  Whether we go one in rd 1 or 2 i dont think we can emphasize the need for more weapons enough to get this offense on track.  YES the OL needs to be fixed, but we cannot just keep throwin 1st rd picks at it.  Would i be mad with a OT in RD 1 and a WR in 2? no im fine with it, but I just think OL is something thats easier to get good talent late than it is WR. 

WR wise initially im looking at a few guys. 

I think Rashee Rice is a good blend of size and toughness.  6'2 203 i believe he's listed around.  He's a physical presence on deep balls, competitive as hell, just seems to me to be a little bit of a sob when the balls in the air. He's not going to blow past a guy and hes better in short areas than stretching the field, but he can win 1v1 jump balls, he's a big presence in the middle of the field on Digs and crossings.  I just really like the way he plays the game from a physical standpoint.  Also, ive said this before, I LOVE guys that produce.  96 catches for 1300+ yds?  Any time you can catch that many balls, i dont care who you play, that tells me something. 

I like josh downs the more i watch him.  Not going to give us anything different than Moore would for the offense but at the end of the day we seem to like that style of player more than guys that are good at one particular thing so he's a guy that I think fits our mold.  He's good in the screen game, good in the short to intermediate area.  Also foudn this interesting, he's converted 72% of contested catch situations.  That tells me something.  Also sticks to my production rule 94 catches and over 1000k yards, i love experience.  

People will say im crazy but I like JSN a lot.  Maybe he's not worth the hype that was built around him, but the kid can play the WR position. Is he a dynamic dangerous #1 top 10 weapon? no but im not drafting him to be.  If im drafting him im getting a very very good player that will be in my wr rotation for years because he can be moved around and his feel for route running is excellent.  OSU Wr's are just trained too well (give credit to hartline who is basically in my mind the best wr coach in the nation right now).  Great body control, good jobs on all his stems and his break points.  He needs to get off press better and he's not going to wow you with his speed for acceleration but the kid can play. He just strikes me as a guy that is going to come in, lunch pale type player, and be a very reliable WR.  He also fits this offense very well schematically.  

 

Great stuff. Wouldn’t ask the tough question if I didn’t value your perspective.

Feel like Rice R2 is going to be a popular one on the board. A tackle, Rice, FB draft could do some things.

What do you think of him after the catch? I just glanced a little but didn’t leave a brief look feeling like he can separate.

[Rhg1084]

 

[Jetty]

If he’s there, trade down.

[Chrebetfan80]

39 minutes ago, derp said:

Great stuff. Wouldn’t ask the tough question if I didn’t value your perspective.

Feel like Rice R2 is going to be a popular one on the board. A tackle, Rice, FB draft could do some things.

What do you think of him after the catch? I just glanced a little but didn’t leave a brief look feeling like he can separate.

I think he can really do well for himself after the catch.  He's got impressive athleticism and good foot quickness from what I've seen, i think in this offense where he can use his strength and eat up that intermediate to short area of the field he can be dangerous with the ball in his hands. 

The thing about him that makes him so appealing is how well he catches the ball.  And not just good throws but like everything.  dude just goes and gets it.  The more you watch him youll see the more youll like him.  He reallllly fits in well with a blend of what we do, and in terms of contested catch situations what we need.  Plus he's a bigger target. 

[win4ever]

On 1/2/2023 at 7:31 AM, derp said:

Shenault was shiftier? Johnson is more one quick move and get upfield which I think translates to the next level better.

Top of the WR class certainly isn’t great. I think Johnston as a 6’4 athletic guy with production on a team in the CFP final would go as high as possible if he didn’t have flaws as a prospect. The profile hasn’t come out in a while and receivers have been going higher than I thought they would so I imagine he goes in the first, but I don’t think he’s clean enough to be a top five pick like big fast guys can be.

To me, Shenault was a better runner in the sense that he seemed to have a better idea of setting up angles for defenders, kinda like a running back in space.  The issue was getting him the ball in space to begin with, because he was a bad receiver.  Johnson will almost certainly be faster, but I'm seeing a lot of very simple routes to get him the ball (shallow cross/quick screen/5 yard dig) and then let his athleticism take over the competition.  I worry about those guys and how they translate when they don't have that superior athleticism that DBs can't keep up.  

High end guys like Jefferson, Chase, Waddle, Wilson all have elite athleticism, but they also set up their routes extremely well with stems, releases, and every varying their speeds.  To me, those are guys that are basically locks to translate, otherwise it's just a gamble on talent, which we can't afford to take right now.  

[derp]

15 minutes ago, win4ever said:

To me, Shenault was a better runner in the sense that he seemed to have a better idea of setting up angles for defenders, kinda like a running back in space.  The issue was getting him the ball in space to begin with, because he was a bad receiver.  Johnson will almost certainly be faster, but I'm seeing a lot of very simple routes to get him the ball (shallow cross/quick screen/5 yard dig) and then let his athleticism take over the competition.  I worry about those guys and how they translate when they don't have that superior athleticism that DBs can't keep up.  

High end guys like Jefferson, Chase, Waddle, Wilson all have elite athleticism, but they also set up their routes extremely well with stems, releases, and every varying their speeds.  To me, those are guys that are basically locks to translate, otherwise it's just a gamble on talent, which we can't afford to take right now.  

I get the description of Shenault’s ability as a runner and I think that’s why he went as high as he did but the guys who create on the perimeter with wiggle in college translate so so rarely and Shenault wasn’t an impressive athlete so I suppose I didn’t see the setting up blocks component of his game being super relevant to translating as a receiver. Johnston creates in a different more subtle way that I think translates better than Shenault. He’s an outlier in terms of missed tackle rate and aDOT, I think he’s reasonably unique.

Comparing Johnston to those guys isn’t totally fair IMO because almost certainly two and very possibly three of those guys went higher than he will and the fourth was massively underdrafted. It’s a different profile to be sure, safer in some ways though we’ve also seen guys like Jeudy bust.

I do think that a) the presence of Wilson would benefit Johnston’s development b) Johnston could impact this offense early on in ways other than game by game production and c) I feel like this team is far enough away talent and rebuilding wise that there’s not a huge rush for day one guys. I do get coaching staff concerns and risk, I just don’t mind gambling on upside so much but it’s also not my job on the line.

[win4ever]

On 1/4/2023 at 12:57 AM, Paradis said:

 

no offense to present company, but Shenault was a fraud. Should have never been drafted outside of the dart rounds... He doesn't belong in any comp conversation that doesn't start and end with Cordarrelle Patterson -- who admittedly, came alive as a RB/Gadget guy (8 years later) which is the only hope Laviska ever will have. 

As a college fan, I loved watching QJ -- the question the film autopsy needs to tell us however;, is he just another Kevin White. I had a major concerns about Kevin White translating. Not saying Quentin is, but those concerns will be the kind i'll be looking for. 

 

Also, latest from Cleveland... David Bell is still trying to separate on a route he's been running since sunday.  

I didn't like Shenault much either, although my draft crush that year was Jeudy, and he hasn't exactly been a superstar.  I liked Mims better than Shenault.  But the whole internet scouting field is so wide now that a ton of prospects get hyped.  Bryan Edwards that year was like the contested catch stud.  Gandy-Golden was the small school gem.  Tyler Johnson was the "he may not run the fastest, but route running" guy - which was what David Bell got tagged with too.  

To me, first round WR has to both be very good athletically, and be good at route running.  After that, can compromise in some areas, mix and match.  I haven't seen film breakdowns of him yet, but even that 75 yarder against Michigan didn't seem impressive in the sense of the route.  It was a shallow cross across the whole field (I think Michigan went Cover 0 blitz, but I don't remember) and he caught the ball like 2 yards behind the line of scrimmage.  The man defender on him seems to take a bad route (takes a bad angle) and Johnson turns the corner and outruns him.  While the stats are great on it, I'm not sure how that type of plays will translate to the NFL.   I like his physical ability, but not in the first.  

 

 

[win4ever]

24 minutes ago, derp said:

I get the description of Shenault’s ability as a runner and I think that’s why he went as high as he did but the guys who create on the perimeter with wiggle in college translate so so rarely and Shenault wasn’t an impressive athlete so I suppose I didn’t see the setting up blocks component of his game being super relevant to translating as a receiver. Johnston creates in a different more subtle way that I think translates better than Shenault. He’s an outlier in terms of missed tackle rate and aDOT, I think he’s reasonably unique.

Comparing Johnston to those guys isn’t totally fair IMO because almost certainly two and very possibly three of those guys went higher than he will and the fourth was massively underdrafted. It’s a different profile to be sure, safer in some ways though we’ve also seen guys like Jeudy bust.

I do think that a) the presence of Wilson would benefit Johnston’s development b) Johnston could impact this offense early on in ways other than game by game production and c) I feel like this team is far enough away talent and rebuilding wise that there’s not a huge rush for day one guys. I do get coaching staff concerns and risk, I just don’t mind gambling on upside so much but it’s also not my job on the line.

I think coming out, a lot of folks expected Shenault to be the type of guy that Deebo Samuel ended up being, that guy that once he got the ball in his hand was like a power running back that CBs would have trouble brining down.  I think the hype on him was high until he ran that slow 40 at the combine.  

I'm more worried about the coaching staff, because I'm not sure this roster fits this offense as much, like there seems to be a clear division with what Douglas drafts, and what MLF needs to run.   I think the biggest upgrade they can have this season is actually changing the offensive system.  I don't care if they need to go spread, vertical, whatever.  

[derp]

41 minutes ago, win4ever said:

I think coming out, a lot of folks expected Shenault to be the type of guy that Deebo Samuel ended up being, that guy that once he got the ball in his hand was like a power running back that CBs would have trouble brining down.  I think the hype on him was high until he ran that slow 40 at the combine.  

I'm more worried about the coaching staff, because I'm not sure this roster fits this offense as much, like there seems to be a clear division with what Douglas drafts, and what MLF needs to run.   I think the biggest upgrade they can have this season is actually changing the offensive system.  I don't care if they need to go spread, vertical, whatever.  

Deebo is a freak for air but 19/20 times that profile busts IMO. It may get more interesting going forward as teams do a better job with hybrid usage. 

I kind of think the coaching staff puts things in a bind because shy of a running back or a polished receiver I’m not really sure who’s going to produce and I don’t really trust them to develop anyone. But they can’t do nothing to try to improve the offense.