Joe Douglas is not a "Terrible GM"

[Rich Thornburgh]

8 minutes ago, varjet said:

• On QB, its not like JD picked ZW over another QB who was better.   He reached for a QB when he should not have.  I think Woody encouraged that.  
• How do you get a QB?:
  • You can stink and pick high, and have a QB available.    There were no good QBs available when the Jets picked at 2.  The Texans got Stroud at 2 (but the Panthers helped on that).    Or you can trade (alot) to pick a QB.  That often works out, as with Josh Allen.  
  • You can pick smart lower.  
    • In 2020 JD could have picked Love or Hurts, or CeeDee Lamb.  Not Becton.  what a bad reach pick.
    • There were no realistic QB options in 2021.
    • In 2022, the Jets had a great draft in the first round.  Purdy, Zappe and Howell were around much later (one good, the others serviceable).
    • In 2023 the Jets could have picked Hooker, O'Connell or Levis as a developmental QB.  I don't think they missed anything.
  • In 2024 rather than Olu we could have picked McCarthy, or Nix, or later Rattler.  We took Travis.   He is red-shirting this year.  We have seen that it does not make sense to pick a QB without a LT, so maybe Olu was the right pick.
• Or you can trade for a QB, or sign one in FA.   If AR8 gets the Jets deep into the playoffs this year, the trade compensation was probably ok.   Two more years a home run.  

So all in, JD gets a decent grade for filling the QB slot for the Jets.  I think he regrets pushing too much of AR8's compensation back in later years-that is a class win-now desperation move.   Maybe if we can get out of Reddick this year, he restructures AR8 to pay him more this year (or we just carry forward Reddick's salary to 2025.

I also think that JD should have done a "Jordan Love" with either McCarthy or Nix to have a QB waiting when AR8 is finished.    But I don't think AR8 is going quietly off into the sunset.  He will stop playing when he literally can't play anymore.  

I prefer Olu over both McCarthy and Nix.  McCarthy I was never crazy about as a college prospect and he’s now injured.  Nix had a good preseason but he wasn’t great he was just better than Stidham and Zach who both suck donkey scrotum dry.  Nix reminds me a lot of Tannehill

 

Travis I agree seems like a wasted pick.  Why not take a flyer on Rattler?

[sciond]

1 hour ago, Rich Thornburgh said:

Zach by himself gets 9 out of every 10 General Managers fired

 

JD is lucky the owner was himself a ZW Justice Warrior 

I still think Woody stuck his nose in the middle of that one

[sciond]

1 hour ago, varjet said:

• On QB, its not like JD picked ZW over another QB who was better.   He reached for a QB when he should not have.  I think Woody encouraged that.  
• How do you get a QB?:
  • You can stink and pick high, and have a QB available.    There were no good QBs available when the Jets picked at 2.  The Texans got Stroud at 2 (but the Panthers helped on that).    Or you can trade (alot) to pick a QB.  That often works out, as with Josh Allen.  
  • You can pick smart lower.  
    • In 2020 JD could have picked Love or Hurts, or CeeDee Lamb.  Not Becton.  what a bad reach pick.
    • There were no realistic QB options in 2021.
    • In 2022, the Jets had a great draft in the first round.  Purdy, Zappe and Howell were around much later (one good, the others serviceable).
    • In 2023 the Jets could have picked Hooker, O'Connell or Levis as a developmental QB.  I don't think they missed anything.
  • In 2024 rather than Olu we could have picked McCarthy, or Nix, or later Rattler.  We took Travis.   He is red-shirting this year.  We have seen that it does not make sense to pick a QB without a LT, so maybe Olu was the right pick.
• Or you can trade for a QB, or sign one in FA.   If AR8 gets the Jets deep into the playoffs this year, the trade compensation was probably ok.   Two more years a home run.  

So all in, JD gets a decent grade for filling the QB slot for the Jets.  I think he regrets pushing too much of AR8's compensation back in later years-that is a class win-now desperation move.   Maybe if we can get out of Reddick this year, he restructures AR8 to pay him more this year (or we just carry forward Reddick's salary to 2025.

I also think that JD should have done a "Jordan Love" with either McCarthy or Nix to have a QB waiting when AR8 is finished.    But I don't think AR8 is going quietly off into the sunset.  He will stop playing when he literally can't play anymore.  

If Travis pans out as me have been a 2st round talent. He will get to set behind AR and develop so maybe he changes everything even though he is older...Time will tell

[doitny]

6 hours ago, kmnj said:

so now Flacco is a good qb lol and was he their QB 1?

you mean ex SB MVP. how many of those did we have?

he might have not been there #1 but he was 10 times better than anything we had or they had after Watson.

even if you dont give me Flacco , Watson their starter went 5-1. our starter played 4 plays.

[doitny]

6 hours ago, Biggs said:

Douglas actually had his first draft in 2020.  It was a bust.  Houston actually made the playoffs because Caserio didn't draft a bust QB after drafting a bust Left Tackle the year before. 

well i didnt mention the 1st draft because i wanted them to each have the same 3 years as comparison. if you add 2020 thats fine but now JD has an extra year of picks and wins.

6 hours ago, Biggs said:

You also ignore that Douglas drafted Zach after trading Darnold to be the Jets answer at QB.  That's a very big deal.

yes thats a big deal. but GMs miss on QBs all the time. SF traded the farm to get Trey Lance and that busted. but he found Purdy. Joe busted on Zach but trade for Rodgers. 

 

6 hours ago, Biggs said:

You also ignored the HC and coaching staffs that the 2 GM's hired

Saleh as a defensive HC has had one of the top 5 defenses in the NFL. DeMarco as a defensive HC has a middle of the pack defense.

Saleh won 7 games 2 years in a row with a busted QB draft pick and even worst QBs ( Sieman, Boyle, White, Streveler, Flacco)

Demarco won 10 games with OROY Stroud. 

Houston won 3 and 4 games with that "solid #2 QB Mills" as you say, while the Jets won 7 and 7 games with the absolute worst QB in the NFL for 3 years. that tells me we have the better roster.

and Saleh abuse Stroud and the Texans in the head to head. if Demarco is the better coach with the better QB how could he only score 6 points against us, and how could such a great defensive coach let Zach Wilson throw for 300 yards against him?

Salehs the better coach. 

 

[Matt39]

Douglas and the FO have been objectively bad when compared to this. Also a shout out to the draft doesn’t matter people, which is the new thing around here

They’ve made the playoffs four consecutive years. They’re the only NFC team that can say that and one of just three across the NFL, joined by the Kansas City Chiefs and Buffalo Bills, in that category. They’ve won the NFC South in three of those four years and won Super Bowl LV in the one they didn’t. And, now, they’ve gotten to the playoffs, and even advanced a round, without Tom Brady on their roster.

They’ve also gone from one of the league’s oldest teams, which was a product of going all in during Brady’s three years as a Buccaneer, to an increasingly young one. They won last year while purging a record amount of dead cap charges (around $80 million) accumulated from aggressive building with Brady as quarterback. And they’ve continued to hit on draft picks.

Consider this: 22 of the 23 picks the Buccaneers have made the past three years (2022 to ’24) remain with the team. I’d bet all 22 of them make the team. Then, throw in their undrafted free agent finds, and I wouldn’t be stunned if more than half of their roster comes from the past three draft classes. And extend it out a year, and 26 of their 30 draft picks from ’21 to ’24 are likely to be on their Week 1 roster.

[Matt39]

 

[Scott Dierking]

3 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

 

Wow!! Crown them. Well done. 

[Matt39]

2 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

Wow!! Crown them. Well done. 

They won the Super Bowl a few years ago and have made the playoffs 4 years in a row. Big blow to the draft doesn’t matter crew. 

[Claymation]

13 hours ago, Matt39 said:

 

Douglas and the FO have been objectively bad when compared to this. Also a shout out to the draft doesn’t matter people, which is the new thing around here

They’ve made the playoffs four consecutive years. They’re the only NFC team that can say that and one of just three across the NFL, joined by the Kansas City Chiefs and Buffalo Bills, in that category. They’ve won the NFC South in three of those four years and won Super Bowl LV in the one they didn’t. And, now, they’ve gotten to the playoffs, and even advanced a round, without Tom Brady on their roster.

They’ve also gone from one of the league’s oldest teams, which was a product of going all in during Brady’s three years as a Buccaneer, to an increasingly young one. They won last year while purging a record amount of dead cap charges (around $80 million) accumulated from aggressive building with Brady as quarterback. And they’ve continued to hit on draft picks.

Consider this: 22 of the 23 picks the Buccaneers have made the past three years (2022 to ’24) remain with the team. I’d bet all 22 of them make the team. Then, throw in their undrafted free agent finds, and I wouldn’t be stunned if more than half of their roster comes from the past three draft classes. And extend it out a year, and 26 of their 30 draft picks from ’21 to ’24 are likely to be on their Week 1 roster.

Do you have a link for this?

[Scott Dierking]

3 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

They won the Super Bowl a few years ago and have made the playoffs 4 years in a row. Big blow to the draft doesn’t matter crew. 

I just looked up GM's Jason Licht's first 6 years and the Bucs record. Know what that was Matt? 34-62.

I wonder if on the Buccaneers site they had some raving, fanatical zealot ranting on their fan site to fire Licht after that abomination? 

[Matt39]

1 minute ago, Scott Dierking said:

I just looked up GM's Jason Licht's first 6 years and the Bucs record. Know what that was Matt? 34-62.

I wonder if on the Buccaneers site they had some raving, fanatical zealot ranting on their fan site to fire Licht after that abomination? 

Imagine taking it this personal. “Raving fanatic” lol get ****ed 

[Matt39]

3 minutes ago, Claymation said:

Do you have a link for this?

 

[Scott Dierking]

Just now, Matt39 said:

Imagine taking it this personal. “Raving fanatic” lol get ****ed 

Imagine enduring over and over and over again some of the far flung conspiracies you have been spewing here.

 

[Matt39]

Just now, Scott Dierking said:

Imagine enduring over and over and over again some of the far flung conspiracies you have been spewing here.

 

I’m sorry you are taking this personally. It’s just the Jets. 

[Scott Dierking]

Just now, Matt39 said:

I’m sorry you are taking this personally. It’s just the Jets. 

No umbrage taken here. I was just posting in response to what you were supposedly claiming was excellent GM'ing by Licht. Upon closer inspection, his first 6 years as GM did NOT produce stellar results. In a football manner, you want to qualify that Licht's record as a GM then, and how he turned the corner?

If you can, does this mean a GM in fact CAN reverse a poor start from a record standpoint? Evidence in this particular case seems to indicate that. Oh, and he helped turn the corner by acquiring a future HOF QB to seal the deal.

Interesting. 

[JiFtheOracle]

16 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

They won the Super Bowl a few years ago and have made the playoffs 4 years in a row. Big blow to the draft doesn’t matter crew. 

Hmmmmmm, I dont think a single person on the face of the planet has ever made that statement but I enjoy your gaslighting. 

[Dunnie]

Hmmmmmm, I dont think a single person on the face of the planet has ever made that statement but I enjoy your gaslighting. 

There is absolutely a crew that has said repeatedly Draft Doesn't Matter ... I pretty much auto skip their posts.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[Matt39]

3 minutes ago, JiFtheOracle said:

Hmmmmmm, I dont think a single person on the face of the planet has ever made that statement but I enjoy your gaslighting. 

What in your estimation does matter?

[Dunnie]

What in your estimation does matter?

Good Coffee matters

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[kmnj]

16 hours ago, doitny said:

you mean ex SB MVP. how many of those did we have?

he might have not been there #1 but he was 10 times better than anything we had or they had after Watson.

even if you dont give me Flacco , Watson their starter went 5-1. our starter played 4 plays.

ha ha that is great-Flacco was available Joe didnt call him -so by your admission Joe missed out again on QB since "he was 10 times better than anything we had"

 

 

 

 

[JiFtheOracle]

19 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

They won the Super Bowl a few years ago and have made the playoffs 4 years in a row. Big blow to the draft doesn’t matter crew. 

Yes, great point, that Super Bowl team was similarly, built through the draft.  Oh, except of course, all these FA's they brought in....

Brady, Blaine Gabbert, Gronk, Fournette, Antonio Brown, LeSean McCoy, JPP, Suh, Shaq Barrett, Jensen but otherwise, they were draft picks! 

[JiFtheOracle]

7 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

There is absolutely a crew that has said repeatedly Draft Doesn't Matter ... I pretty much auto skip their posts.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
 

Show me one post.  Just one single post, where some said "the draft doesnt matter".  Just one. 

[JiFtheOracle]

9 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

What in your estimation does matter?

Hmmm, is this a trick question? because I think I just told you the draft matters and nobody has ever said it doesnt.

[Dunnie]

Show me one post.  Just one single post, where some said "the draft doesnt matter".  Just one. 

I'm not very adept at searching through the sites posts ... But I am pretty sure it was in some of the JD must go threads .. comparing his approach to other teams that ascended quickly from bottom barrel to playoffs or referencing Belichik's abysmal drafting history and team success as proof it can be done.



Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[Biggs]

14 hours ago, doitny said:

and Saleh abuse Stroud and the Texans in the head to head. if Demarco is the better coach with the better QB how could he only score 6 points against us, and how could such a great defensive coach let Zach Wilson throw for 300 yards against him?

Salehs the better coach. 

 

Dude,  Demarco and Saleh are HC not DC's.  The KC Chiefs lost to Denver and the Raiders last year.  Miami lost to the Titans last year.  The 49ers lost to the Vikings last year.  Detroit lost to the Bears last year.  Dallas lost to the Cardinals last year.

Playoff teams loss to terribly coached teams with good rosters all the time.  Playoff teams loss to bottom 5 roster teams all the time.

Adam Gase's Jets actually beat Sean McVay's Rams in 2020.  Wow Gase is the man.

Good teams travel and lay eggs every year in the NFL.  Good teams come out flat against bad teams all the time in the NFL.  Good teams make the playoffs bad teams don't.

To date Saleh has been as much of a bust as a HC as Zach Wilson has been as a QB.  

 

[Matt39]

15 minutes ago, JiFtheOracle said:

Show me one post.  Just one single post, where some said "the draft doesnt matter".  Just one. 

I think you know I was exaggerating to make a point. Douglas drafts have led to his record. Can we grade him on W/L’s yet?  The people I was responding to seem to think there’s no correlation with anything and everything the season spits out is entirely random and out of the GM’s control. 

[Biggs]

1 hour ago, Scott Dierking said:

I just looked up GM's Jason Licht's first 6 years and the Bucs record. Know what that was Matt? 34-62.

I wonder if on the Buccaneers site they had some raving, fanatical zealot ranting on their fan site to fire Licht after that abomination? 

I suspect the fact that the Bucs had a winning season in year 3 may have gotten him an extension.  He's record is still better than Douglas's over his first 5 years and he actually had a winning season.  

And yes Bucs fan were killing him.  To his credit he brought in a top NFL HC who put in place a great staff to go with Brady.  JD brought in Hackett to go with Rodgers.  TBD...

 

[Scott Dierking]

16 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

I think you know I was exaggerating to make a point. Douglas drafts have led to his record. Can we grade him on W/L’s yet?  The people I was responding to seem to think there’s no correlation with anything and everything the season spits out is entirely random and out of the GM’s control. 

Again, what was Licht's first 6 years like? Would you have been preaching patience? Or Matt being Matt? I would suggest the former. Shows what can happen. 

Oopsy on your part of calling out the Bucs as being this gold star standard of GM'ing, when in fact their first 6 years under Licht, look very similar to the Douglas tenure here. No guarantee of anything, but that's what we do here. 

Look, this year will be Douglas' waterloo, if he doesn't make the playoffs. If you were to do a poll here, I would bet that 70% of the fans (short for fanatics btw) here would say that will be the case.

[Scott Dierking]

24 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

I think you know I was exaggerating to make a point. Douglas drafts have led to his record. Can we grade him on W/L’s yet?  The people I was responding to seem to think there’s no correlation with anything and everything the season spits out is entirely random and out of the GM’s control. 

Who are these people?

[JiFtheOracle]

35 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

I'm not very adept at searching through the sites posts ... But I am pretty sure it was in some of the JD must go threads .. comparing his approach to other teams that ascended quickly from bottom barrel to playoffs or referencing Belichik's abysmal drafting history and team success as proof it can be done.



Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
 

I'm here daily and partake in may conversations and considering myself as a draftnik, I typically love draft conversations and I've literally never heard that take.  Ever.  And if there was a "crew", it should be easy to find one singular example.

And what you're describing is very different than, "the draft doesnt matter".  I've seen people say it's a crap shoot, I've seen people say it a coin toss after round 5, I've seen people say there is more than one way to build, but never, ever, ever have I heard or seen anyone say the draft flat out "doesnt matter". 

 

[Biggs]

11 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

Again, what was Licht's first 6 years like? Would you have been preaching patience? Or Matt being Matt? I would suggest the former. Shows what can happen. 

Oopsy on your part of calling out the Bucs as being this gold star standard of GM'ing, when in fact their first 6 years under Licht, look very similar to the Douglas tenure here. No guarantee of anything, but that's what we do here. 

Look, this year will be Douglas' waterloo, if he doesn't make the playoffs. If you were to do a poll here, I would bet that 70% of the fans (short for fanatics btw) here would say that will be the case.

Licht had a winning season in year 3.  He's record is better than Douglas's over the same period and includes a winning season.  He bit the bullet and brought in a winning HC from the O side of the ball to pair with Brady.  They spent on a top NFL coaching staff to pair with Brady.  

That said it's likely that both of them aren't very good in fact most of the league may be very poorly managed. The NFL is designed to weigh the scales in favor of bad teams through both the draft and the salary cap.  The competition is weighted against the best in favor of the worst.  The good thing about that is competitive balance.  The bad is it actually promotes mediocrity in management because it's actually much tougher to maintain a high level of good results by being measurable better than the competition when it comes to roster management and coaching.  The scales are tilted to the mediocre and bad managers by design.

JD and Licht may both simply be products of the NFL's quest for parity?  Parity being the antithesis of excellence.  

The NFL draft is basically designed to take the chalk picks to the extent they fill needs and are in the range of the Chalk.  Had JD taken the chalk pick in year 1 we have Whirffs.  If he had taken Zach in round 3 where Davis went no harm, if Zach was off the board no harm.  If we traded the pick or took the best available player on a team full of needs no harm.  

[Dunnie]

5 minutes ago, JiFtheOracle said:

I'm here daily and partake in may conversations and considering myself as a draftnik, I typically love draft conversations and I've literally never heard that take.  Ever.  And if there was a "crew", it should be easy to find one singular example.

And what you're describing is very different than, "the draft doesnt matter".  I've seen people say it's a crap shoot, I've seen people say it a coin toss after round 5, I've seen people say there is more than one way to build, but never, ever, ever have I heard or seen anyone say the draft flat out "doesnt matter". 

 

Fair Enough ... discounting the draft because 'that pats did it with crappy drafting' kind of rings 'draft doesn't really matter', or JD should be able to build the team without a draft. If you are looking for a word by word match .. I honestly don't recall. Its semantics to me. But fair enough ... if you are looking for an exact sentence 'the draft doesn't matter' i really don't know.

 

 

Edited August 27 by Dunnie

[JiFtheOracle]

30 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

I think you know I was exaggerating to make a point. Douglas drafts have led to his record. Can we grade him on W/L’s yet?  The people I was responding to seem to think there’s no correlation with anything and everything the season spits out is entirely random and out of the GM’s control. 

Well, I was responding to Dunnie who said "there is absolutely a crew of posters who says repeatedly the draft doesnt matter" - repeatedly?  A crew?  But we cant find one single post?  It's because quite literally, nobody has ever made that claim.

As far as the draft and JD, I agree that poor drafting has absolutely impacted the teams performance but I think the challenge w/ this take is that one draft pick in particular, basically sank any chance for the rest to shine.  I think the biggest knock against JD isnt his drafting, which I think has been good enough comparatively, it's how he's handled the QB position which I think we can all agree, is the biggest reason for this teams lack of success.

 

 

[Scott Dierking]

1 minute ago, Biggs said:

Licht had a winning season in year 3.  He's record is better than Douglas's over the same period and includes a winning season.  He bit the bullet and brought in a winning HC from the O side of the ball to pair with Brady.  They spent on a top NFL coaching staff to pair with Brady.  

That said it's likely that both of them aren't very good in fact most of the league may be very poorly managed. The NFL is designed to weigh the scales in favor of bad teams through both the draft and the salary cap.  The competition is weighted against the best in favor of the worst.  The good thing about that is competitive balance.  The bad is it actually promotes mediocrity in management because it's actually much tougher to maintain a high level of good results by being measurable better than the competition when it comes to roster management and coaching.  The scales are tilted to the mediocre and bad managers by design.

JD and Licht may both simply be products of the NFL's quest for parity?  Parity being the antithesis of excellence.  

Their records over their first 5 seasons are rather similar. Douglas 27-56. Licht  27-53. Statistically, from a vantage point of determining if one GM is superior to another, a small variance with little support of a premise. 

Granted, there is more than this needs to be taken into account for a true assessment. Far more. 

I was just pointing out the silly hill that Matt decided to plant his "draft picks are the be all of everything" mantra flag, by pointing out the subject of his said flag has an incredibly similar record as Douglas does, at the same points in their career. 

That is all. Of course it is much more than this.