The Troll Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 Just curious as to why there are no topics about "The most clutch player in baseball" making the final out the past two games with a chance to put the Yanks ahead. Seriously, if Jeter has lost his "clutchness", then he truly is nothing more than an average offensive shortstop that makes two or three spectacular defensive plays a year, which causes people to call him a better defensive shortstop than he is. Come on, every single person on the Yanks is getting criticized. Why the hell is Jeter excempt from criticism? Is it because he's only knocked in 100 runs one time in his career, or is it because he hosted Saturday Night Live and banged Jessica Alba? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawn306 Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 Trust me he is not. Runner on second and one out both Jeter and Bernie of all people are swinging at the first pitch. I'm sitting there going WTF ? It's a joke right now and everyone from the Captain to Flaherty have to take the hit for this. Trust me Jeter does get a pass. At least with this Yankee fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardSeymour Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 Or it could be that Jeter has never been a clutch player, and that myth was started by a huge sample size of prominent games and an emphasis on the successes--- give any good player 100 "big" at bats in the postseason and they're liable to come through on 30 or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomShane Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 Or it could be that Jeter has never been a clutch player, and that myth was started by a huge sample size of prominent games and an emphasis on the successes--- give any good player 100 "big" at bats in the postseason and they're liable to come through on 30 or so. Pretty much defines Jeter's entire career, doesn't it? He's a great player because he hit .300 in NY. Wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 Or it could be that Jeter has never been a clutch player, and that myth was started by a huge sample size of prominent games and an emphasis on the successes--- give any good player 100 "big" at bats in the postseason and they're liable to come through on 30 or so. Nomar wouldn't come through. And you said he was better. Why should we believe you now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardSeymour Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 Nomar wouldn't come through. And you said he was better. Why should we believe you now? Uh because he did come through just as often as Jeter--- Consider his performance in three playoff series during his pre-Al Reyes days. 14 games, .383 BA, .453 OBP, .936 SLG, 1.389 OPS 7 HRs, 5 doubles, 20 RBI, 12 runs Of course in 2003 he was miserable in the postseason. He wasn't the same hitter at that point, never was after Al Reyes, but even those miserable series don't bring his numbers below Jeters---- and Jeter's had his share of miserable series' as well. Pre Al Reyes to compare Jeter to Nomar is retarded. Post Al-Reyes through 2003 it was much closer, but Nomar was still better. Circa 2004 and 2005, Jeter gets the nod, easilly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GimmeShelter Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 Interesting. Wednesday, October 29, 2003 by Aaron Gleeman "Derek is really, really cute" (Part Two) In yesterday's entry, I looked at Derek Jeter's post-season performances over the last four years, and found that his hitting in "Clutch" situations didn't quite match his reputation for being "Mr. Clutch." The reason I only looked at the last four years was because the detailed data from previous post-seasons wasn't available. Or so I thought. Turns out Retrosheet has post-season stats galore. I should have known better. I was trying to find the post-season stats on ESPN.com, and their database only dates back to 2000. But, as Tangotiger from Baseball Primer told me yesterday, "when in doubt, Retrosheet saves the day." For those of you who missed yesterday's entry, here is a little piece from it: "The situations one would want to look at in trying to determine the Clutchness of a player would seem to me to be the following: - Runners in scoring position - Runners in scoring position with two outs - Close and late The first two are self-explanatory. "Close and late" is defined as "results in the 7th inning or later with the batting team either ahead by one run, tied or with the potential tying run at least on deck." In other words, how does someone do when the game is on the line? When the going gets tough and the tough get going. When the s--- hits the fan. When the men are separated from the boys. When (insert your own cliche here). Here are Derek Jeter's post-season numbers in those situations from 2000-2003, combined... Runners in scoring position: .214/.421/.357 Runners in scoring position with two outs: .188/.381/.375 Close and late: .176/.263/.323 Again, those numbers do not include what he did from 1996-1999. Even with that disclaimer, I think that if you are looking at the same stats I am looking at, the whole "Jeter is Clutch" theory has a David Wells-sized hole in it." Unfortunately, while Retrosheet has Jeter's complete post-season record, it does not include his numbers in "close and late" situations, or his numbers with "runners in scoring position and two outs." Those are two situations that are obviously important when discussing whether or not someone is a "Clutch Player," so it's a little disappointing to not have those numbers. But, what Retrosheet does have is Jeter's numbers with men on base and with men in scoring position. And, unlike ESPN.com, they have those numbers for his entire, 99-game post-season career. Here they are... Runners in scoring position: .210/.355/.306 Runners on base: .245/.345/.329 In his entire post-season career, a total of 99 games spread over eight seasons, Derek Jeter is a .210/.355/.306 hitter with runners in scoring position and a .245/.345/.329 hitter with men on base. Take that and add in the fact that, over the last four post-seasons, he is a .176/.263/.323 hitter in "close and late" situations, and I think it is safe to say that my sarcastic response to Jeter constantly being hailed as "Mr. Clutch" is completely justified. One of the things that I enjoy most about having a website that a lot of people read is that just about every day, some sort of "message board" or "forum" or "chatroom" discusses what I've written. It's a nice boost to the ego to see that people care about the things you say, and it's always interesting to see your opinions discussed. I stumbled across a NYYFans.com "Forum" where the subject "Does 'Clutch' really exist" was being debated. Someone going by the name of "Hawaii Yankee Fan" commented that "anyone who voted 'no' clearly has never seen Derek Jeter play." Someone else, going by the name of "YankeeNut18," said, "Look no farther than Derek Jeter." About midway through the discussion, a reader of this blog going by the name "Luke2003" added a link to yesterday's blog entry to the discussion and commented that "there's one problem with this...the numbers say the opposite." The resulting responses were incredibly interesting. Here are a few of the highlights: ACPS: "The postseason is all about being clutch, and I don't need some Sox fan's blog to tell me that a guy with a .314 postseason average and the most postseason hits ever to tell me otherwise." It was later pointed out to this person that I am, in fact, a Twins fan. He didn't really care. It is interesting that the implication seems to be that Jeter's numbers being shown on a blog and being shown by what "ACPS" thought was a "Sox fan" makes the numbers less real. It's also interesting that this person wants to dismiss Jeter's offensive numbers in specific "Clutch" situations, but then immediately brings up Jeter's overall post-season batting average. Hitman23: "I hear ya. And we're not even talking about what he does defensively which is just as important and no one ever mentions." So, in this person's opinion, not only do the stats that say Jeter has performed poorly in "Clutch" situations not matter, Jeter's defense is something that "no one ever mentions." I'm not the first person to say this, but Derek Jeter's defense is awful. Horrendously bad. It strikes me as incredibly funny that a Yankee fan would dismiss Jeter's actual numbers in Clutch situations because they are bad and then bring up the subject of defense as something in Jeter's favor. OilCan: "I have to admit I was surprised by these numbers, though." That response is basically what I was hoping for. In showing Jeter's sub par numbers in Clutch situations, I did not intend to imply that I thought he was a "choker" or some other such nonsense. I simply was shocked by the actual numbers I found after I stopped trusting Tim McCarver and looked them up for myself. And I figured most everyone else would be just as shocked as I was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patriots4ever Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 As much as I hate him because he's a Yankeee, I have always had the utmost respect for Jeter, as a Red Sox fan. I must go wash my mouth out now. Seriously, if money were no object, I'd rather have Jeter on my team than 6-4-3 Renteria and/or A-Rod, if I were given the option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet/BosoxFan Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 As much as I hate him because he's a Yankeee, I have always had the utmost respect for Jeter, as a Red Sox fan. I must go wash my mouth out now. Seriously, if money were no object, I'd rather have Jeter on my team than 6-4-3 Renteria and/or A-Rod, if I were given the option. You may be onto something there. Maybe we should call him "Edgar 6-4-3ia." And until money isnt an object, I'd take lots of guys over Captain Overrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GimmeShelter Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 As much as I hate him because he's a Yankeee, I have always had the utmost respect for Jeter, as a Red Sox fan. I must go wash my mouth out now. Seriously, if money were no object, I'd rather have Jeter on my team than 6-4-3 Renteria and/or A-Rod, if I were given the option. Everyone respects him and as for Renteria the grass always looks greener on the other side. Renteria will be fine. The fact is though, Jeter is nowhere near the best clutch player in MLB as we have been made to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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