Maxman Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 NS -- Wang gets paid in Taiwan dollars. Even with out deflated dollar that works out to be about $4 an hour. He is really quite cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIGHT STALKER Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 NS -- Wang gets paid in Taiwan dollars. Even with out deflated dollar that works out to be about $4 an hour. He is really quite cheap. Damn, I forgot about that...we may even be able to throw in Igawa and call it a day. But, I'm not sure how the Japanese dollar is doing these days... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GimmeShelter Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Kennedy-Wang-Melky-Lower level prospect (not Tabata or Jackson). That's the ceiling of my offer for Santana. I do not believe the BoSox give Ellsbury, or the Dodgers give their kid pitchers. If Minny says no, then he will be a FA after 2008. Santana had a bad September this past year. He has gotten worse each September the past 4 season down. This from a 2nd half pitcher!! He has thrown 900+ innings the past 4 seasons. I wonder how dominant he will be in 2010 and beyond. I would rather take my chances with Hughes, Joba and Kennedy if Minny turns down the above trade. I really believe the 3 kids will be really good soon, and will be as good, if not better than Santana by 2010. I think Johan starts to break down in 2 years, and becomes merely " good". Santana in 2006 Sept-Oct. 3-1 1.78 ERA with 38 K's in 35 innings. 2005 same timeframe: 2-1 1.75 ERA with 34 K's in 34 innings. 2004 same timeframe : 5-0 0.45 ERA with 52K's in 40 innings. 2007 same timeframe 1-3 4.94 ERA with 35K's in 31 innings. I think it's safe to say that ONLY 07 was a bad stretch run or progressively worse than his earlier seasons. A year in which the team and Johann had nothing to play for down the stretch. His previous three Sept-Octobers?? 10-2 with a ERA in the low 1's and over a strikeout per inning. That's quite the statement on your part that the 3 kids will be as good or better than Santana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Damn, I forgot about that...we may even be able to throw in Igawa and call it a day. But, I'm not sure how the Japanese dollar is doing these days... You had to bring up Igawa. His deal is actually 100 million. It's bad. They are going to trade Cano for a 12 year old Taiwan little leaguer to offset the costs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 The newspapers/media need to STFU about trading Phil Hughes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbn007 Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Santana in 2006 Sept-Oct. 3-1 1.78 ERA with 38 K's in 35 innings. 2005 same timeframe: 2-1 1.75 ERA with 34 K's in 34 innings. 2004 same timeframe : 5-0 0.45 ERA with 52K's in 40 innings. 2007 same timeframe 1-3 4.94 ERA with 35K's in 31 innings. I think it's safe to say that ONLY 07 was a bad stretch run or progressively worse than his earlier seasons. A year in which the team and Johann had nothing to play for down the stretch. His previous three Sept-Octobers?? 10-2 with a ERA in the low 1's and over a strikeout per inning. That's quite the statement on your part that the 3 kids will be as good or better than Santana. Santana was 3-2 with a 5.70 ERA against teams from the AL East last season (not counting the Yankees). He was 5-7, 4.04 in the second half of the season, allowing 88 hits (16 of them home runs) over 98 innings. The 33 home runs he allowed for the season were nine more than in any other previous season. Scouts have noticed he appears hesitant to throw his slider. He has one victory in five career playoff starts. The above is from Abraham's blog. I could not paste the link, so I copied the relevant part. I think the slow-down has already begun. I do not believe that Santana will be the dominant pitcher over the next 3 years that he was the past 3. I also think Joba and Hughes will become dominant over the next 3, and will equal, or surpass Santana by 2010. Having seen both of them live this season, in the Majors and the Minors, as well as having seen Hughes live in Trenton in 2006, I have no doubt as to what I am saying. We have 2 ACEs in the making. Within 3 years, the world will see. Barring injury, of course. Kennedy reminds me a lot of Moose. I am told that Moose threw 2-3 ticks harder then Ian did when Moose was in his 20s. Somehow, I do not recall this. But Ian has unreal command, and he throws a slew of pitches, like Moose. Will he have the same career as Moose? Who knows? But I would rather keep the 3 kids, as I believe the Yankees will be better served in the near term, and way better served in the future, by not trading them for Santana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonEJet Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Wait a second, you think that currently the system is equal, but a Santana deal would push it over the top? Really? It's equal for the Yanks Mess Sawx Angels Dodgers and a few other teams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GimmeShelter Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Santana was 3-2 with a 5.70 ERA against teams from the AL East last season (not counting the Yankees). He was 5-7, 4.04 in the second half of the season, allowing 88 hits (16 of them home runs) over 98 innings. The 33 home runs he allowed for the season were nine more than in any other previous season. Scouts have noticed he appears hesitant to throw his slider. He has one victory in five career playoff starts. The above is from Abraham's blog. I could not paste the link, so I copied the relevant part. I think the slow-down has already begun. I do not believe that Santana will be the dominant pitcher over the next 3 years that he was the past 3. I also think Joba and Hughes will become dominant over the next 3, and will equal, or surpass Santana by 2010. Having seen both of them live this season, in the Majors and the Minors, as well as having seen Hughes live in Trenton in 2006, I have no doubt as to what I am saying. We have 2 ACEs in the making. Within 3 years, the world will see. Barring injury, of course. Kennedy reminds me a lot of Moose. I am told that Moose threw 2-3 ticks harder then Ian did when Moose was in his 20s. Somehow, I do not recall this. But Ian has unreal command, and he throws a slew of pitches, like Moose. Will he have the same career as Moose? Who knows? But I would rather keep the 3 kids, as I believe the Yankees will be better served in the near term, and way better served in the future, by not trading them for Santana. We will see. Joba has ACE written all over him but the others are not the given you state. Yanks will trade Hughes or Kennedy for Santana for three reasons. 1. He's head and shoulders better than the kids. 2. They don't want Boston or the Angels getting him. 3. They have no-one who is Beckett like come the post season. Santana got hit around in ONE post season start. The Twins simply never hit for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uart Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 [quote=NIGHT STALKER;707862 The Twins have opened trade discussions for Johan Santana by asking the Yankees for a package of at least three young players that would include one of their three top starters -- Joba Chamberlain, Phil Hughes or Ian Kennedy -- plus center fielder Melky Cabrera. GREAT. Now my "Got Melky?" T-Shirt is worthless... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uart Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 what about all those pitcher who pitched a few games and didn't suck for us last year... like uhh clippard and rasner and de salvo(or some****) Lets give the twins all of those guys igawa and melky. That's 4 starting pitchers and a starting cfer. OH GOD, I'D POOP MY PANTS WITH JOY!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 GREAT. Now my "Got Melky?" T-Shirt is worthless... No its not. After he gets traded just write "Not Anymore" on the back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nugentfan1 Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 The newspapers/media need to STFU about trading Phil Hughes. i totally agree with you on that. the twins can have melky but there is no way that there going to get phil. his future as a yankee is brighter than what santana could bring to them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 i totally agree with you on that. the twins can have melky but there is no way that there going to get phil. his future as a yankee is brighter than what santana could bring to them That is a near impossible statement to back up and defend. You have nothing to base it off of. I understand the fans love of prospects, and trying to project their future, but it is an inexact science at best. Santana is a proven ace. Hughes is merely a prospect. Nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kidhuman Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 I say they sould send Melky, Clippard and Karstens for Johan. 2 good prospects and a proven CF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 I say they sould send Melky, Clippard and Karstens for Johan. 2 good prospects and a proven CF. You are dealing with a new GM here. Someone who knows that his initial splash as a GM will be what he can garner in this trade. What you suggest there, does not excite any Twin fan, and that is what this GM must do. He would be better of holding him if that was all he could get. But, he can get much more. heck, as a Met fan I could better that trade by offering Gomez, Pelfrey and Mulvey. But that won't get it done either. The Dodgers are rich in talent and can throw a Kemp, Billingsley package deal togteher and trump both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nugentfan1 Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 That is a near impossible statement to back up and defend. You have nothing to base it off of. I understand the fans love of prospects, and trying to project their future, but it is an inexact science at best. Santana is a proven ace. Hughes is merely a prospect. Nothing more. hes a prospect thats proven himself in this league. why not trade joba then? hes just as much as a prospect as phil hughes is. nothing more, nothing less, just a prospect, nothing more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 hes a prospect thats proven himself in this league. why not trade joba then? hes just as much as a prospect as phil hughes is. nothing more, nothing less, just a prospect, nothing more Agreed that Joba is just a prospect also. If I were the Yankees, I may try to hold on him a little more fully, based on upside potential. What has Philip Hughes proven in this league? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIGHT STALKER Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Agreed that Joba is just a prospect also. If I were the Yankees, I may try to hold on him a little more fully, based on upside potential. What has Philip Hughes proven in this league? Nothing...but, he was the "hot" pitching prospect out of the Yankees farm system until a couple of minor injuries and Chamberlain came along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nugentfan1 Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Agreed that Joba is just a prospect also. If I were the Yankees, I may try to hold on him a little more fully, based on upside potential. What has Philip Hughes proven in this league? he can handle this league, he can handle the pressure, and he has what it takes to be a great pitcher for a long time. hes even proven that he can handle the pressure of the playoffs by saving the game that clemens couldnt finish. he has great stuff, the only problem is that nobody acknowledged him for it because everybody went joba crazy when he came here throwing 100mph. phil has just as much potential as joba and i wouldnt trade either one of them but if there considering trading phil merely because hes a prospect, then they need to consider joba because he is in the same category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 he can handle this league, he can handle the pressure, and he has what it takes to be a great pitcher for a long time. hes even proven that he can handle the pressure of the playoffs by saving the game that clemens couldnt finish. he has great stuff, the only problem is that nobody acknowledged him for it because everybody went joba crazy when he came here throwing 100mph. phil has just as much potential as joba and i wouldnt trade either one of them but if there considering trading phil merely because hes a prospect, then they need to consider joba because he is in the same category. And there you have the key word-Potential. If I had a dollar for every prospect that had "potential", with "great stuff" and the "ability to handle pressure", I would be a rich man. I know, I know, he is a Yankee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Nothing...but, he was the "hot" pitching prospect out of the Yankees farm system until a couple of minor injuries and Chamberlain came along. Generation K! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nugentfan1 Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 And there you have the key word-Potential. If I had a dollar for every prospect that had "potential", with "great stuff" and the "ability to handle pressure", I would be a rich man. I know, I know, he is a Yankee. so then what makes phil any more open to trade than joba? what has joba proven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 so then what makes phil any more open to trade than joba? what has joba proven? Precisely! But, if I were the Yankees and had my druthers, I would make Chamberlain more untouchable than Hughes. just an opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nugentfan1 Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Precisely! But, if I were the Yankees and had my druthers, I would make Chamberlain more untouchable than Hughes. just an opinion. i think hughes has more potential that joba, and would trade joba before hughes but i understand what you're saying and i respect your opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GimmeShelter Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Not 100% confirmed but this deal likely means Melky and Ellsbury ares not a requirement in a Johan deal. Matt Garza For Delmon Young Blockbuster Close La Velle E. Neal III says the Twins are close to a multiplayer deal. They'll send Matt Garza, Jason Bartlett, and Juan Rincon to the Rays for Delmon Young, Brendan Harris, and Jason Pridie. I can't remember any kind of young player blockbuster like this recently. It's exciting to see Bill Smith pull the trigger on a deal to get that possible elite slugger. Will he be more hesitant to trade Johan Santana now? Or maybe it doesn't matter since he'd require an elite young hurler like Phil Hughes in return. Beyond Young, you also have to applaud Smith for getting Pridie, who immediately becomes the Twins' center fielder of the future. The 24 year-old came back from injuries this year to rake in Triple A. Just like that, the Twins have an outfield. Meanwhile the Rays suddenly have an awesome young trio fronting their rotation in Scott Kazmir, Jamie Shields, and Garza. Rincon's ability is questionable at this point but he could be the setup man the Rays are craving. MLB Traderumors also says that the Twins should now be looking for a 3B and elite SP prospect in any Johan deal. They list the Angels as a possibility of being able to meet that requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbn007 Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Agreed that Joba is just a prospect also. If I were the Yankees, I may try to hold on him a little more fully, based on upside potential. What has Philip Hughes proven in this league? Ask Texas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Ask Texas. MBN, I know that you are not going to purport one game as the worthiness of his future. he is a talent, I know. But many others have had the same pedigree and levels of success, only to fail. There are no "can't miss" prospects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbn007 Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Not 100% confirmed but this deal likely means Melky and Ellsbury ares not a requirement in a Johan deal. Matt Garza For Delmon Young Blockbuster Close La Velle E. Neal III says the Twins are close to a multiplayer deal. They'll send Matt Garza, Jason Bartlett, and Juan Rincon to the Rays for Delmon Young, Brendan Harris, and Jason Pridie. I can't remember any kind of young player blockbuster like this recently. It's exciting to see Bill Smith pull the trigger on a deal to get that possible elite slugger. Will he be more hesitant to trade Johan Santana now? Or maybe it doesn't matter since he'd require an elite young hurler like Phil Hughes in return. Beyond Young, you also have to applaud Smith for getting Pridie, who immediately becomes the Twins' center fielder of the future. The 24 year-old came back from injuries this year to rake in Triple A. Just like that, the Twins have an outfield. Meanwhile the Rays suddenly have an awesome young trio fronting their rotation in Scott Kazmir, Jamie Shields, and Garza. Rincon's ability is questionable at this point but he could be the setup man the Rays are craving. MLB Traderumors also says that the Twins should now be looking for a 3B and elite SP prospect in any Johan deal. They list the Angels as a possibility of being able to meet that requirement. Good deal for the Twins. I am not as sold on Garza. long-term, as others. I find it interesting that the Twins got back Pridie. I am almost positive they selected him in the Rule V draft a few years ago, from the Rays, and returned him shortly thereafter. I need to check this out. This puts puts the Dodgers and Angels in the driver's seat for Santana, as they both have kid thridbasemen (Laroach and Wood) that the Twins would want, in addition to the young pitchers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbn007 Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 MBN, I know that you are not going to purport one game as the worthiness of his future. he is a talent, I know. But many others have had the same pedigree and levels of success, only to fail. There are no "can't miss" prospects. I agree with you . Many talents do not work out. My personal feelings, and that is all I am posting on these boards, is that Phil will work out, as advertised. And so will Joba. I would rather gamble and keep both of these kids instead of trading for Santana, and then signing him to a 25 million dollar contract. I would love Santana, but not at the high cost of prospects, and then again a high cost to sign him. Lower the prospect cost, because Santana will not lower the signing cost, and then he will go to FA if he has to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GimmeShelter Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Good deal for the Twins. I am not as sold on Garza. long-term, as others. I find it interesting that the Twins got back Pridie. I am almost positive they selected him in the Rule V draft a few years ago, from the Rays, and returned him shortly thereafter. I need to check this out. This puts puts the Dodgers and Angels in the driver's seat for Santana, as they both have kid thridbasemen (Laroach and Wood) that the Twins would want, in addition to the young pitchers. Yeah he was a Rule V.....who knows maybe the Yanks take him as Melky's replacment though not right away. Rowands agent said the Yanks said they are interested in him should Melky get traded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbn007 Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Yeah he was a Rule V.....who knows maybe the Yanks take him as Melky's replacment though not right away. Rowands agent said the Yanks said they are interested in him should Melky get traded. After seeing what Hunter got, Rowand will want similar, albeit a little less. I am not ready to commit 15 million per to him, especially over 5 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYjet10 Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Just from Espnews yankees say Joba,and Robby are off limits in trade talks for Johan. Also Bosox going for santana,but minny wants Ellsbury,Bucholz and other prospects,while the sox say they only want crisp to leave. Doesent look like the Sox are gonna win this one:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Awesome. I forgot about Norman. Doug Flynn actually played a great second base. His bat was horrible. I cried a little bit that night. Not as much as Tom Terrific cried that night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uart Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Just from Espnews yankees say Joba,and Robby are off limits in trade talks for Johan. Also Bosox going for santana,but minny wants Ellsbury,Bucholz and other prospects,while the sox say they only want crisp to leave. Doesent look like the Sox are gonna win this one:) Good, if the Sox aren't really in this, we don't need to trade away the farm... Lets hope the Yankees stay sane about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIGHT STALKER Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Good, if the Sox aren't really in this, we don't need to trade away the farm... Lets hope the Yankees stay sane about this. Red Sox would be nuts not to use Ellsbury if that's what it would take to get Santana. If any team should know over the years that hitting doesn't win the WS it's the Sox...and if they do obtain Santana, they could conceivably be the favorite to win it all for the next several years. With Beck and Santana (and a righty/lefty combo to boot) starting for you, I can't think of a better 1,2 punch than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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