Chad Haters

[drago]

NJ: Its all good

In the spirit of fair play I hope Chad is nowhere near the Jets sideline when the Jets take on the Pats in Week 2.

it's like all the favre fans out here. They ignore his 7 int playoff game to the rams when we lost by 10, they ignore the multiple picks against the eagles when we were averaging 5 yards plus per carry between three different backs, they will ignore it all in order to see their beloved Brett/Chad.

Those two QB's have one thing in common, they are both washed up. At least Favre was a has been.

[jetfuel]

So now it was Chad's great QBing and ability to win that had him hand the ball off to lamont for a 20 yard gain that put them in field goal range? Interesting, i could swear it was our offensive line that cleared that path. Maybe chad handed it off then sprinted in front of jordan and then tackled the entire pittsburgh front. I'll have to re-watch the game film.

Was Chad playing QB in that game? Did the Jets have a legitimate shot to win it in regulation and make it to the AFC championship after winning in San Diego with Chad at QB? Was it poor play by Chad or a horrible play calling sequence by Hackett and Herminator that led to the missed FG late in the 4th QT? We won't even mention the fact that he played half of that season with a torn rotator and still had the team in position to get to the AFC Championship despite the "Coaching" of Edwards and Hackett.

[jetfuel]

it's like all the favre fans out here. They ignore his 7 int playoff game to the rams when we lost by 10, they ignore the multiple picks against the eagles when we were averaging 5 yards plus per carry between three different backs, they will ignore it all in order to see their beloved Brett/Chad.

Those two QB's have one thing in common, they are both washed up. At least Favre was a has been.

Yeah, Favre is awful. I guess that's why he's going to be a first ballot Hall Of Famer. Washed up? He had a bad game against the Giants. He also had one of the best seasons of his career this past year. Every QB has bad games in his career. Anyone who says Favre is washed up doesn't have a leg to stand on. That's ridiculous!

[drago]

Was Chad playing QB in that game? Did the Jets have a legitimate shot to win it in regulation and make it to the AFC championship after winning in San Diego with Chad at QB? Was it poor play by Chad or a horrible play calling sequence by Hackett and Herminator that led to the missed FG late in the 4th QT? We won't even mention the fact that he played half of that season with a torn rotator and still had the team in position to get to the AFC Championship despite the "Coaching" of Edwards and Hackett.

Hackett's fault, Herm's fault, Brien's fault. Got it.

Yeah, Favre is awful. I guess that's why he's going to be a first ballot Hall Of Famer. Washed up? He had a bad game against the Giants. He also had one of the best seasons of his career this past year. Every QB has bad games in his career. Anyone who says Favre is washed up doesn't have a leg to stand on. That's ridiculous!

i'm not having an arguement about Favre with a guy that doesn't watch every packer game. The QB you know from ESPN is not the same against good teams, we'll just leave it at that.

[#27TheDominator]

So now it was Chad's great QBing and ability to win that had him hand the ball off to lamont for a 20 yard gain that put them in field goal range? Interesting, i could swear it was our offensive line that cleared that path. Maybe chad handed it off then sprinted in front of jordan and then tackled the entire pittsburgh front. I'll have to re-watch the game film.

...but, but, but... how could they run the ball with Chad at QB? I thought that meant 8 men in the box!?!?!

i'm not having an arguement about Favre with a guy that doesn't watch every packer game. The QB you know from ESPN is not the same against good teams, we'll just leave it at that.

Wait. A great QB plays worse against good teams? Shocking! I thought that was a Pennington only trait.

[jack48]

Hackett's fault, Herm's fault, Brien's fault. Got it.

i'm not having an arguement about Favre with a guy that doesn't watch every packer game. The QB you know from ESPN is not the same against good teams, we'll just leave it at that.

I will say it again as I have said it once before. We were wrong about Hackett. He actually made Chad look a lot better than he really was. Who'da thunk it?

[Flashlite80]

I've been at every home game since Chad took over. I will tell you that Jet fans have short memories. To be fair, Chad was a great leader for this franchise. His smarts and emotion were driving forces. The good Chad was the face of the franchise and the fans loved his style of play, leadership and flawless execution. At least the 72,000 plus at the games every week did.

Fast forward to recent years. It's unfortunate but the second arm surgery took everything out of him. His arm is now too weak to execute against the quick defenses of today. I have been a big Chad supporter but his arm is shot. Defenses crowd the line and there is still no passing attack. The 8 and 9 man lines make complex blitzes easy to disguise, hence increasing the confusion of the offensive line. We will average 10-13 points a game with Chad. Put Clemons in. This guy deserves a chance to play behind a real NFL line, with a decent running game and his front line receivers. You can't evaluate a first time starter who was running for his life, pounded constantly, had no running game, no Coles and lost two games because McCareins and Brad Smith couldn't catch his passes. Forget your stats. He lead some big comebacks against top defenses. His shortcoming was he didn't have any NFL quality weapons on the line or at the skill positions to work with.

Clemons is our only option for the future. Even if Chad gets us to 9-7, where are we next year? No Chad and an unproven backup with no confidence. If Clemons fails, They go after a solid veteran to start next year.

Understand, that I am Chad supporter, but when it's time to go, it's time to go. It happens to every player. If Chad didn't have a long term contract with salary cap implications, he'd be a back-up, at best, or out of football. So stop the bashing. It's up to Mangini to make the gutsy call and move forward. Until then, Chad will do what he has always done - fight to the death with everything he's got.

[jetfuel]

Hackett's fault, Herm's fault, Brien's fault. Got it.

i'm not having an arguement about Favre with a guy that doesn't watch every packer game. The QB you know from ESPN is not the same against good teams, we'll just leave it at that.

You're right, I've never seen Favre play besides replays on ESPN. That's funny because I can't remember the last time I even watched ESPN. I've watched Favre play a hell of a lot more than you seem to "know" that I have. It's a good thing you don't have a say in who goes to the Hall Of Fame because Favre is probably one of the top 5 QB's to ever play this game. You are out of your mind if you can't see that.

[drago]

You're right, I've never seen Favre play besides replays on ESPN. That's funny because I can't remember the last time I even watched ESPN. I've watched Favre play a hell of a lot more than you seem to "know" that I have. It's a good thing you don't have a say in who goes to the Hall Of Fame because Favre is probably one of the top 5 QB's to ever play this game. You are out of your mind if you can't see that.

7 picks in a playoff game, a back breaking pick against the giants and a non-existant three quarters from brett in that game as well. The 4th and 26 game where the running game was dominant and favre threw the ball straight up for dawkins to end that playoff game.

He was great in the 90's, HOF great, turned the franchise around. Ever since they lost to the Broncos he's been on a very steady decline. Even during that decline Favre could dominate bad teams, and i do mean dominate. It's no wonder he would post 4 td's one week only to follow that preformance with 4 picks.

You don't give the packers enough credit, they have had some real strong teams, some of the best in the NFL. Had Favre played game manager at the start of the century New England would have only had 2 super bowl wins.

[jetfuel]

7 picks in a playoff game, a back breaking pick against the giants and a non-existant three quarters from brett in that game as well. The 4th and 26 game where the running game was dominant and favre threw the ball straight up for dawkins to end that playoff game.

He was great in the 90's, HOF great, turned the franchise around. Ever since they lost to the Broncos he's been on a very steady decline. Even during that decline Favre could dominate bad teams, and i do mean dominate. It's no wonder he would post 4 td's one week only to follow that preformance with 4 picks.

You don't give the packers enough credit, they have had some real strong teams, some of the best in the NFL. Had Favre played game manager at the start of the century New England would have only had 2 super bowl wins.

I don't give the Packers enough credit? He started 257 straight games in the NFL as a QB and broke almost every record possible. He was GREAT this year. Yeah, I know he has 288 INT's in his career. He also had 442 TD's. Favre is a first ballot HOFer .... end of discussion (on my part at least). I'm not a GB fan so I'm done with this.

[drago]

I don't give the Packers enough credit? He started 257 straight games in the NFL as a QB and broke almost every record possible. He was GREAT this year. Yeah, I know he has 288 INT's in his career. He also had 442 TD's. Favre is a first ballot HOFer .... end of discussion (on my part at least). I'm not a GB fan so I'm done with this.

i never said he wouldn't make the hall, nor that he didn't deserve the hall. What i am saying is that he sucks when the pressure is on. This year he played well, check out their schedule. It was laughable, yet they still managed to lose to the Bears twice.

[Jade Green]

...but, but, but... how could they run the ball with Chad at QB? I thought that meant 8 men in the box!?!?!

Wait. A great QB plays worse against good teams? Shocking! I thought that was a Pennington only trait.

BINGO!!!

[jetfuel]

i never said he wouldn't make the hall, nor that he didn't deserve the hall. What i am saying is that he sucks when the pressure is on. This year he played well, check out their schedule. It was laughable, yet they still managed to lose to the Bears twice.

You know it's the boring part of the offseason when I am arguing on Favre's behalf. Between that and the neverending Chad-Kellen debate, I just want training camp to get here. Either that or some kind of real news we can discuss.

[ZachEY]

Just checking in from the 'other' board.

Is there anyone on this site who actually thinks Chad Pennington is a viable starting QB? Or just that he's better than Kellen?

[jetfuel]

Just checking in from the 'other' board.

Is there anyone on this site who actually thinks Chad Pennington is a viable starting QB? Or just that he's better than Kellen?

I'm sure this will lead to more fun. I think Chad is a viable starter. I won't say he's better than Clemens for sure because it remains to be seen what Kellen can do. I will say that at this point in time that Chad has proven he can be a starter and Kellen hasn't ... yet. Personally I'd like to see how Chad bounces back from that awful year and if Kellen really is what I thought he was when he was drafted or if he is what we have seen in the limited amount of time he has played. There is no way that I can kill either one of them for last season when the line was horrendous. I have never seen a professional football team rotating guys in and out at LG AND RT. Chad has not had that good of an OL since 2004. In 2006 they had Anthony "Cement" Clement and a bad RB by committee after Martin went down early and played hurt for a few games (if I remember correctly). Most people here are going to tell you that Chad sucks. I happen to disagree and have confidence that he can lead this team with the revamped O-Line, Franks, and Richardson. People seem to forget how good Chad is at the play-action. I know that will get some comments too but oh well. I am more than willing to be won over by Clemens if he can get the job done though. I just want the team to win. Mangini can play Qb for all I care as long as he can win them games.

[drago]

Just checking in from the 'other' board.

Is there anyone on this site who actually thinks Chad Pennington is a viable starting QB? Or just that he's better than Kellen?

welcome from the 'other' site. Welcome to what we have to read on a daily basis (below)

I'm sure this will lead to more fun. I think Chad is a viable starter. I won't say he's better than Clemens for sure because it remains to be seen what Kellen can do. I will say that at this point in time that Chad has proven he can be a starter and Kellen hasn't ... yet. Personally I'd like to see how Chad bounces back from that awful year and if Kellen really is what I thought he was when he was drafted or if he is what we have seen in the limited amount of time he has played. There is no way that I can kill either one of them for last season when the line was horrendous. I have never seen a professional football team rotating guys in and out at LG AND RT. Chad has not had that good of an OL since 2004. In 2006 they had Anthony "Cement" Clement and a bad RB by committee after Martin went down early and played hurt for a few games (if I remember correctly). Most people here are going to tell you that Chad sucks. I happen to disagree and have confidence that he can lead this team with the revamped O-Line, Franks, and Richardson. People seem to forget how good Chad is at the play-action. I know that will get some comments too but oh well. I am more than willing to be won over by Clemens if he can get the job done though. I just want the team to win. Mangini can play Qb for all I care as long as he can win them games.

[Boozer76]

Chad the player? I despise him.

Chad the person? I think he's a great guy.

[The Troll]

Yes, Chad is a viable starter. Let's just erase everything he has done over the last three years.

[ZachEY]

I'm sure this will lead to more fun. I think Chad is a viable starter. I won't say he's better than Clemens for sure because it remains to be seen what Kellen can do. I will say that at this point in time that Chad has proven he can be a starter and Kellen hasn't ... yet. Personally I'd like to see how Chad bounces back from that awful year and if Kellen really is what I thought he was when he was drafted or if he is what we have seen in the limited amount of time he has played. There is no way that I can kill either one of them for last season when the line was horrendous. I have never seen a professional football team rotating guys in and out at LG AND RT. Chad has not had that good of an OL since 2004. In 2006 they had Anthony "Cement" Clement and a bad RB by committee after Martin went down early and played hurt for a few games (if I remember correctly). Most people here are going to tell you that Chad sucks. I happen to disagree and have confidence that he can lead this team with the revamped O-Line, Franks, and Richardson. People seem to forget how good Chad is at the play-action. I know that will get some comments too but oh well. I am more than willing to be won over by Clemens if he can get the job done though. I just want the team to win. Mangini can play Qb for all I care as long as he can win them games.

I don't know how much more fun I can offer you...

I'm curious though, if you say you want to see how Chad can bounce back after an awful year, have you considered the fact that statistically, Chad had just about the same year as he did in 2006? And the only difference is we played tougher competition and his wounded duck INTs were returned for touchdowns more frequently?

Have you considered that since the 2004 Wild Card game, Chad has exactly one win against a team with a winning record, NE in 2006, in the mud in a game that the NE WR (forget who) fumbled away a New England win, and then CP did everything he could to give it back by throwing a sure-fire INT that Cotchery made a miraculous play on to steal from Gay (I think thats who it was)? Beyond that, not one win against a team with a winning record in that stretch?

And my all-time favorite, have you considered that Chad Pennington is a quarterback who's weakness is throwing?

Again, just looking to get a feel for the atmosphere here.

[drago]

And my all-time favorite, have you considered that Chad Pennington is a quarterback who's weakness is throwing?

[NJ]

And my all-time favorite, have you considered that Chad Pennington is a quarterback who's weakness is throwing?

Thank you - I've never heard it expressed that way but that's absolutely the deal. You could happily overlook his deer in the headlights lapses and inability to put bad plays behind him if he could do an adequate job throwing the football. I've always maintained Chad Pennington is the best QB in the league or at least tied with P. Manning before the ball is snapped. He reads D's well, can audible with the best of them, knows his plays and does a great job of leading on the field. His hard count is bar none and has gotten us a load of 1st downs due to his execution of it. Then the ball is snapped and every reason to be excited goes flaccid. It will be another long lousy season if we have to depend on his services. Even with a soft schedule.

[jetfuel]

I don't know how much more fun I can offer you...

I'm curious though, if you say you want to see how Chad can bounce back after an awful year, have you considered the fact that statistically, Chad had just about the same year as he did in 2006? And the only difference is we played tougher competition and his wounded duck INTs were returned for touchdowns more frequently?

Have you considered that since the 2004 Wild Card game, Chad has exactly one win against a team with a winning record, NE in 2006, in the mud in a game that the NE WR (forget who) fumbled away a New England win, and then CP did everything he could to give it back by throwing a sure-fire INT that Cotchery made a miraculous play on to steal from Gay (I think thats who it was)? Beyond that, not one win against a team with a winning record in that stretch?

And my all-time favorite, have you considered that Chad Pennington is a quarterback who's weakness is throwing?

Again, just looking to get a feel for the atmosphere here.

Okay He-Man, so you came here to stir up more sh&^ I see. Chad will most likely be starting this year so I hope everyone is mentally prepared for that. Mangini does not care if you like it or not.

[jetfuel]

Thank you - I've never heard it expressed that way but that's absolutely the deal. You could happily overlook his deer in the headlights lapses and inability to put bad plays behind him if he could do an adequate job throwing the football. I've always maintained Chad Pennington is the best QB in the league or at least tied with P. Manning before the ball is snapped. He reads D's well, can audible with the best of them, knows his plays and does a great job of leading on the field. His hard count is bar none and has gotten us a load of 1st downs due to his execution of it. Then the ball is snapped and every reason to be excited goes flaccid. It will be another long lousy season if we have to depend on his services. Even with a soft schedule.

Prepare yourself for a long, lousy season then.

[jetfuel]

Yes, Chad is a viable starter. Let's just erase everything he has done over the last three years.

He didn't play in 2005. The Jets went 10-6 and lost to the Pats in the playoffs in 2006. Not even Namath in his prime could have done well with the OL the Jets had in 2007. I'm not erasing anything. Chad will probably start this year.

[Sperm Edwards]

Okay He-Man, so you came here to stir up more sh&^ I see. Chad will most likely be starting this year so I hope everyone is mentally prepared for that. Mangini does not care if you like it or not.

I don't know what you're basing that on. At best, Chad has a 50/50 chance through a camp competition. Mangini has not hinted at anything close to Pennington having a leg-up.

He pissed games away, and Mangini stuck with him despite media/fans wanting a change already. Then after Mangini stuck his neck out for him, Chad blew a couple more games. Then he lost his job. Then when Clemens was injured for 2 games, Chad did nothing to reclaim it. Then when he was fit to, Clemens started again with Chad on the bench.

Unless Clemens gets so soundly beat in camp, I can't see Mangini sticking with Pennington.

[jetfuel]

I don't know what you're basing that on. At best, Chad has a 50/50 chance through a camp competition. Mangini has not hinted at anything close to Pennington having a leg-up.

He pissed games away, and Mangini stuck with him despite media/fans wanting a change already. Then after Mangini stuck his neck out for him, Chad blew a couple more games. Then he lost his job. Then when Clemens was injured for 2 games, Chad did nothing to reclaim it. Then when he was fit to, Clemens started again with Chad on the bench.

Unless Clemens gets so soundly beat in camp, I can't see Mangini sticking with Pennington.

You may be right. Chad sucked last year. I wanted him benched after 5 games myself. I don't think Clemens did much to inspire faith in Mangini though. I was ready for Tui or Ratliff after 3 or 4 games with Kellen myself (I'm not saying that he should have been benched after that though). The things is, when you're a HC of a team that just spent tons of money in the offseason to build up the Offense, I would think he is leaning towards the vet who has already won a lot of games in this league. You can talk bad about Penny all you want but that fact does remain. I would think it is a hard evaluation of Clemens to be made on last year's performance since that is all they have to go on. The OL was crap as we all know. The bottom line is Chad has more of a chance than most of the people here seem to think he has and he is not going to lay down and let Kellen take the job away in camp. Despite what you think of him he is a fighter. I don't care who starts. I really don't. I just think it's crazy to think Pennington does not have a good chance to start again. Clemens didn't blow anyone out of the water yet. He actually looked worse as the year went on IMO. I hope he looks great in camp and learned from last year.

[ZachEY]

Okay He-Man, so you came here to stir up more sh&^ I see. Chad will most likely be starting this year so I hope everyone is mentally prepared for that. Mangini does not care if you like it or not.

Stir ****?

Explain to me what is factually incorrect about my post, and then let's take it from there.

[Sperm Edwards]

You may be right. Chad sucked last year. I wanted him benched after 5 games myself. I don't think Clemens did much to inspire faith in Mangini though. I was ready for Tui or Ratliff after 3 or 4 games with Kellen myself (I'm not saying that he should have been benched after that though). The things is, when you're a HC of a team that just spent tons of money in the offseason to build up the Offense, I would think he is leaning towards the vet who has already won a lot of games in this league. You can talk bad about Penny all you want but that fact does remain. I would think it is a hard evaluation of Clemens to be made on last year's performance since that is all they have to go on. The OL was crap as we all know. The bottom line is Chad has more of a chance than most of the people here seem to think he has and he is not going to lay down and let Kellen take the job away in camp. Despite what you think of him he is a fighter. I don't care who starts. I really don't.

HE has won a lot of games? Or he was the QB when the Jets won? I mean really - did HE win the Miami game, or did Leon merely take one of Chad's dumpoffs 60 yards? Did HE win a lot of those games in '06 when we had the #6 stingiest defense in terms of points-surrendered and 18th-best offense?

Yet it is a TEAM loss when our defense holds the (then) #1 offense to 10 points and we get shut out.

And a TEAM loss when we got shut out a month earlier.

And it's the officials' fault because Chris Baker didn't get two feet in (a stupid rule that they've since done away with) after Chad was again the NFL's worst QB through the game's first 58+ minutes, throwing to a receiving corps Tom Brady would have had an erection throwing to.

And when he threw those sideline rainbow 4th quarter picks in games we were in (if not outright winning) in '07, it's because of the OL or the defense.

But when Leon scampers 60 yards into the endzone vs Miami in '06, it's Chad who you credit with statements like the one I bolded above.

Man, the Dolphins offense outscored ours in Chad's matchup last year. But since we had a return touchdown, it then reverts back to "HE/CHAD" won the game.

He hasn't been a top 10 QB in many non-Jets-fan's estimations since those shoulder surgeries. I can't see how he has any upper-hand unless Clemens is actually worse than he was in '07.

[ZachEY]

You may be right. Chad sucked last year. I wanted him benched after 5 games myself. I don't think Clemens did much to inspire faith in Mangini though. I was ready for Tui or Ratliff after 3 or 4 games with Kellen myself (I'm not saying that he should have been benched after that though). The things is, when you're a HC of a team that just spent tons of money in the offseason to build up the Offense, I would think he is leaning towards the vet who has already won a lot of games in this league. You can talk bad about Penny all you want but that fact does remain. I would think it is a hard evaluation of Clemens to be made on last year's performance since that is all they have to go on. The OL was crap as we all know. The bottom line is Chad has more of a chance than most of the people here seem to think he has and he is not going to lay down and let Kellen take the job away in camp. Despite what you think of him he is a fighter. I don't care who starts. I really don't. I just think it's crazy to think Pennington does not have a good chance to start again. Clemens didn't blow anyone out of the water yet. He actually looked worse as the year went on IMO. I hope he looks great in camp and learned from last year.

Do you acknowledge the fact that Clemens looking worse may have had some relationship with Mangini playing musical chairs with the already dismal offensive line as the season went on? Could his decreased production have anything to do with the fact that he lost Coles to injury, and Cotchery was not playing at full strength? Leaving Brad Smith as an actual WR?

You're right, Chad has won games in this league, but the idea of him being a 'winner' is patently false. He's a .500 QB in games he's taken the majority of the snaps. Much like after a great 2002 campaign (6 years ago), he's a 1:1 TD to INT ratio passer.

[jetfuel]

Stir ****?

Explain to me what is factually incorrect about my post, and then let's take it from there.

The point is that you came in here and asked if people thought Chad was a viable starter when there are countless threads here discussing that very matter. Obviously a lot of Jets fans do not believe he is a viable starter if you've read any of the posts prior to yours. There is no reason to ask that question because it has already been answered a million times here. I am in the minority in supporting Chad and I am fine with that.

[jetfuel]

Do you acknowledge the fact that Clemens looking worse may have had some relationship with Mangini playing musical chairs with the already dismal offensive line as the season went on? Could his decreased production have anything to do with the fact that he lost Coles to injury, and Cotchery was not playing at full strength? Leaving Brad Smith as an actual WR?

You're right, Chad has won games in this league, but the idea of him being a 'winner' is patently false. He's a .500 QB in games he's taken the majority of the snaps. Much like after a great 2002 campaign (6 years ago), he's a 1:1 TD to INT ratio passer.

And Clemens has 1:2 TD to INT at this point. Clemens also had the advantage of a Defense that didn't wake up until halfway through the season. Chad had no D when he was in there. I am willing to give Clemens the benefit of the doubt. I never said I wasn't. I'm not however going to give him a pass and torch Chad for last year. Clemens may have been better off with the rotation at LG and RT than what Chad had with Adrien Clarke and Anthony Clement. Bottom line is that the OL was horrible last year. Both QB's were garbage in 2007. We can either say it's because they both suck or we wait to see who looks more comfortable after the changes that have been made.

[lancemehl]

it's like all the favre fans out here. They ignore his 7 int playoff game to the rams when we lost by 10, they ignore the multiple picks against the eagles when we were averaging 5 yards plus per carry between three different backs, they will ignore it all in order to see their beloved Brett/Chad.

Those two QB's have one thing in common, they are both washed up. At least Favre was a has been.

Who is "we"? The packers? Since when are the Packers called "we" on this board.

The jets NEVER lost to the Rams by Ten in the playoffs, Chad NEVER threw 7 int's in a playoff game and what they don't have in common is that Favre will not be playing football this year and Chad will be starting for the NY jets, also known as "US".

[Sperm Edwards]

And Clemens has 1:2 TD to INT at this point. Clemens also had the advantage of a Defense that didn't wake up until halfway through the season. Chad had no D when he was in there. I am willing to give Clemens the benefit of the doubt. I never said I wasn't. I'm not however going to give him a pass and torch Chad for last year. Clemens may have been better off with the rotation at LG and RT than what Chad had with Adrien Clarke and Anthony Clement. Bottom line is that the OL was horrible last year. Both QB's were garbage in 2007. We can either say it's because they both suck or we wait to see who looks more comfortable after the changes that have been made.

Their TD:INT ratios in games they either started (or were the primary QB's for the game) was about the same when you factor in stuff like the Baltimore game. And I hardly fault anyone for throwing picks when inserted cold at the end of the game in must-pass situations & one of them being a hail-mary pass. All the while crediting Chad with a TD with :03 left in a game we trailed by 15 points (also aided by Chad) as though it was at all meaningful.

I don't think Clemens was good in '07, but having watched the games I know there wasn't this incredible disparity in his play & Chad's that these stats would suggest.

And if you are so in love with stats, there was maybe a FG difference in points-against per game in Chad's starts vs Kellen's starts. The defense set Chad up by holding the #1 offense in NFL history to 20 points. Chad sure made the most of it with one of his typical performances: high completion percentage, low yardage, low points scored.

The defense did well enough to get more than 1 win with Pennington back there:

20 points vs New England (we lost 20-10)

17 points vs Buffalo (we lost 17-14)

16 points vs Philadelphia (we lost 16-9)

13 points vs Buffalo (we lost 13-3)

10 points vs Tennessee (we lost 10-6)

But ok - the Jets defense is to blame for losing those games. Sure.

Seems to me they held the opposition to 20 points or less in most of Chad's games (like they did 11x the prior season).

[jetfuel]

HE has won a lot of games? Or he was the QB when the Jets won? I mean really - did HE win the Miami game, or did Leon merely take one of Chad's dumpoffs 60 yards? Did HE win a lot of those games in '06 when we had the #6 stingiest defense in terms of points-surrendered and 18th-best offense?

Yet it is a TEAM loss when our defense holds the (then) #1 offense to 10 points and we get shut out.

And a TEAM loss when we got shut out a month earlier.

And it's the officials' fault because Chris Baker didn't get two feet in (a stupid rule that they've since done away with) after Chad was again the NFL's worst QB through the game's first 58+ minutes, throwing to a receiving corps Tom Brady would have had an erection throwing to.

And when he threw those sideline rainbow 4th quarter picks in games we were in (if not outright winning) in '07, it's because of the OL or the defense.

But when Leon scampers 60 yards into the endzone vs Miami in '06, it's Chad who you credit with statements like the one I bolded above.

Man, the Dolphins offense outscored ours in Chad's matchup last year. But since we had a return touchdown, it then reverts back to "HE/CHAD" won the game.

He hasn't been a top 10 QB in many non-Jets-fan's estimations since those shoulder surgeries. I can't see how he has any upper-hand unless Clemens is actually worse than he was in '07.

I didn't mean that Chad won games single-handedly. I never said that he did. The fact remains that he has won a lot of games as the starting QB of the Jets. Kellen has won 3. Kellen threw a few of those sideline picks himself. Maybe it was a function of WR's running wrong routes or just a crappy play call. Whatever the case may be you have to acknowledge that Kellen was horrendous last year too. The whole Offense was disgusting.

If Clemens is any worse than he was last year I'm gonna have to start calling him Kellen Nagle.

[jetfuel]

Their TD:INT ratios in games they either started (or were the primary QB's for the game) was about the same when you factor in stuff like the Baltimore game. And I hardly fault anyone for throwing picks when inserted cold at the end of the game in must-pass situations & one of them being a hail-mary pass. All the while crediting Chad with a TD with :03 left in a game we trailed by 15 points (also aided by Chad) as though it was at all meaningful.

I don't think Clemens was good in '07, but having watched the games I know there wasn't this incredible disparity in his play & Chad's that these stats would suggest.

And if you are so in love with stats, there was maybe a FG difference in points-against per game in Chad's starts vs Kellen's starts. The defense set Chad up by holding the #1 offense in NFL history to 20 points. Chad sure made the most of it with one of his typical performances: high completion percentage, low yardage, low points scored.

The defense did well enough to get more than 1 win with Pennington back there:

20 points vs New England (we lost 20-10)

17 points vs Buffalo (we lost 17-14)

16 points vs Philadelphia (we lost 16-9)

13 points vs Buffalo (we lost 13-3)

10 points vs Tennessee (we lost 10-6)

But ok - the Jets defense is to blame for losing those games. Sure.

Seems to me they held the opposition to 20 points or less in most of Chad's games. And that's including 2 games against the #1 offense in NFL history.

How many points did Kellen score? What was his completion %? What was his QB rating? Okay then. I didn't say the D was at fault but they did play a hell of a lot better in the 2nd half of the year. If you want to ignore that you can.