RSJ Posted July 28, 2008 Author Share Posted July 28, 2008 Would you have had the same reaction to Peyton or Aikman in their first years when they were far worse than Clemens was over the course of a full season? Now you are comparing him to Peyton and Aikman? This is why I don't get involved in these threads. You can twist stats anyway you want. For every Peyton and Aikman comparison you can throw at me, I can throw back at you a Browning Nagle and Jeff George. It means nothing. Those guys were top draft picks, got better throughout the season and showed flashes. Clemens has shown me nothing and got worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcord1786 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 I agree with 100% of your last two posts. I have stayed far away from this topic all offseason because Jets fans are quite frankly very, very unfair to Pennington. We are talking about a QB who has had more success than 90% of the QB's to ever wear green and white and they act like he has held the team back. That's why this team fails time and time again and why players need to leave here to win a super bowl. That's a very good point. These "fans" that want to send Chad packing I just dont understand.. they want the reins being handed over to Kellen. What's so bad about a competition? The reason they have a problem is because they know that Chad will not be beat out. Yea its popular to say that Kellen needs his experience this season.. that's easy to say in July, but when were in October and were 1-3 and close to losing the entire season.. its not gonna be a popular excuse and you'll be complianing anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LionelRichie Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Now you are comparing him to Peyton and Aikman? This is why I don't get involved in these threads. You can twist stats anyway you want. For every Peyton and Aikman comparison you can throw at me, I can throw back at you a Browning Nagle and Jeff George. It means nothing. Those guys were top draft picks, got better throughout the season and showed flashes. Clemens has shown me nothing and got worse. jeff george > chadwick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Jet Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 He's a slight notch above the Grossmans, Jacksons and Smiths of the world. How? Honestly,please back that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcord1786 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 How much of that was YAC? Is 7 points 7 points? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSJ Posted July 28, 2008 Author Share Posted July 28, 2008 jeff george > chadwick Really? How so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Jet Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Is 7 points 7 points? Yes, but the 68 yards could easily have been another dumpoff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Jet Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 jeff george > chadwick With a great reason like that, how can I disagree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-Mart28 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Now you are comparing him to Peyton and Aikman? This is why I don't get involved in these threads. You can twist stats anyway you want. For every Peyton and Aikman comparison you can throw at me, I can throw back at you a Browning Nagle and Jeff George. It means nothing. Those guys were top draft picks, got better throughout the season and showed flashes. Clemens has shown me nothing and got worse. No, I'm going into how people make rash decisions before giving a player a chance to see what he has. I used the examples of Peyton and Aikman because they had bad first years, awful first years, but given the time to develop...or a chance...they became good starting QB's. Will Clemens be either of those I dont know, you dont know, nobody knows, but people are ready to make judgements so soon, the kid deserves a chance. If he loses out to Chad I'll be there complaining with the rest of you and looking to the future, but I'm going to let this play out and see what he can do before making that decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSJ Posted July 28, 2008 Author Share Posted July 28, 2008 Yes, but the 68 yards could easily have been another dumpoff. I will write to Joe Montana and remind him that most of his passes to John Taylor and Jerry Rice were "dumpoffs" in your book. Lets see what he says. Not making a comparison. Just sayin................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Maybe not bottom five, but he's in the lowest tier of QB's in the league. Jackson, Grossman, Edwards, Croyle, whoever Miami's QB is, the Falcons QB, Russell. That's the group I's lump him in with. He's probably the best of the bunch...and that's not exactly something I'd hang my hat on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn212 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Mangini will play the guy who he has evaluated throughout camp that gives him the best chance to win games..If Clemens keeps throwing picks and making bad decisions and Chad does not..well f**k it if it's me I'm playing the guy who's not turning the ball over.. Turnovers lose games!!I think MANGINI'S DOESN'T GIVE ONE S**T. Chad or Kelllen ..he's good with either one..hell, he's payin them both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jade Green Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 You mean the same thanksgiving day game where they had to travel on four days rest to Dallas and he had to stand behind that atrocious line against one of the better defenses in the league in both pass rushing, where the running backs combined for 60 yds on 20 attempts and he had an average of about a second to throw and the defense couldnt stop the run or get to the QB the entire night. Is that the Dallas game you mean? You dont judge a QB making his fourth start on that, any QB would have had problems under those circumstances. I'm not saying he is the next great QB, but give him a little more time to be judged, he's got the potential to be decent in the league Too bad he is not showing it in camp. The fact that he is in a competition with Chad Pennington is scary, if he loses out, he totally sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-Mart28 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Now you are comparing him to Peyton and Aikman? This is why I don't get involved in these threads. You can twist stats anyway you want. For every Peyton and Aikman comparison you can throw at me, I can throw back at you a Browning Nagle and Jeff George. It means nothing. Those guys were top draft picks, got better throughout the season and showed flashes. Clemens has shown me nothing and got worse. No the point I'm making is that nobody knew what these Qb's would become, especially after atrocious first full seasons, but when given the chance they became great. I'm not sayin that Clemens is going to be great, I'm not saying he's going to be horrible, I believe that we need to give him time to see what he's got when live fire power is being used. And if he shows he cant handle it, I'll be there with the rest of you clamouring for him to be gone and looking for other options. At least lets wait until they actually play some preseason games before writing him off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcord1786 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Yes, but the 68 yards could easily have been another dumpoff. A dump off is a dump off, this was a called slant play. So instead of Chad's dump off's you would rather have Kellen running around in the pocket with out a clue right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Jet Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Maybe not bottom five, but he's in the lowest tier of QB's in the league. Jackson, Grossman, Edwards, Croyle, whoever Miami's QB is, the Falcons QB, Russell. That's the group I's lump him in with. He's probably the best of the bunch...and that's not exactly something I'd hang my hat on. Ravens QB (Whoever), Alex Smith, Vince Young and Jason Campbell are waving at you right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Jet Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 A dump off is a dump off, this was a called slant play. So instead of Chad's dump off's you would rather have Kellen running around in the pocket with out a clue right? When did I ever say I wanted Kellen in instead? I'm not on either side of this debate, I was genuinely interested as to how long that 68 yarder went in the air. I want to know how much of it was on Chad and how much of it was on Smith. I was hoping someone who was in attendence could tell me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcord1786 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 When did I ever say I wanted Kellen in instead? I'm not on either side of this debate, I was genuinely interested as to how long that 68 yarder went in the air. I want to know how much of it was on Chad and how much of it was on Smith. I was hoping someone who was in attendence could tell me. It was about 25 yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-Mart28 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 A dump off is a dump off, this was a called slant play. So instead of Chad's dump off's you would rather have Kellen running around in the pocket with out a clue right? Would you rather have a QB that doesnt avoid the pass rush, or one that does? Chad resembles a statue when the pass rush comes at him, Clemens may move around too much (hard not to when he has so little time), but I'd rather he try to make a play than take the sack (if there is a play to be had that is). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcord1786 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Would you rather have a QB that doesnt avoid the pass rush, or one that does? Chad resembles a statue when the pass rush comes at him, Clemens may move around too much (hard not to when he has so little time), but I'd rather he try to make a play than take the sack (if there is a play to be had that is). The argument is that instad of Chad taking the sack, he dumps its off. Would you rather have a QB that (when there is pressure) takes what the defense gives him, in a dump off to most likely Leon Washington (who by the way is the most explosive offensive player we have) and allows him to make a play, or rush out of the pocket as soon as he scenses pressure (which Kellen does). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Jet Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Would you rather have a QB that doesnt avoid the pass rush, or one that does? Chad resembles a statue when the pass rush comes at him, Clemens may move around too much (hard not to when he has so little time), but I'd rather he try to make a play than take the sack (if there is a play to be had that is). Clemens last season showed as bad as pocket awareness I'd ever seen. There were times were he actually made the line look worse than it was. I remember in the Dallas game were he rolled to the right, then thought he would turn around and go back to the left again. Needless to say, DeMarcus Ware was there waiting for him. Of course Brick takes the blame despite the fact that he stayed engaged with Ware for more than enough time for Clemens to make a play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-Mart28 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Clemens last season showed as bad as pocket awareness I'd ever seen. There were times were he actually made the line look worse than it was. I remember in the Dallas game were he rolled to the right, then thought he would turn around and go back to the left again. Needless to say, DeMarcus Ware was there waiting for him. Of course Brick takes the blame despite the fact that he stayed engaged with Ware for more than enough time for Clemens to make a play. And that is something that comes with experience, now whether or not he has learned anything is the key to his success, if not then he wont win the job and likely we'll be in the market for a new QB sooner than later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-Mart28 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 The argument is that instad of Chad taking the sack, he dumps its off. Would you rather have a QB that (when there is pressure) takes what the defense gives him, in a dump off to most likely Leon Washington (who by the way is the most explosive offensive player we have) and allows him to make a play, or rush out of the pocket as soon as he scenses pressure (which Kellen does). What about when there wasnt a dumpoff man to go to, Chad didnt have the arm to reach other recievers, and couldnt make time for one to get open enough for him to reach. The dumpoff can only work so often, and will in all probability work less when teams have a whole offseason to study what Chad does (though it doesnt exactly take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jade Green Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 And that is something that comes with experience, now whether or not he has learned anything is the key to his success, if not then he wont win the job and likely we'll be in the market for a new QB sooner than later.He's throwing picks in practice with no pressure. I wish Clemens was the man, and that our QB problems were over, but Kellen has not shown anything to think that is the case. He is in a competiton with Chad Pennington, it is amazing how many people ignore the fact that, this is not good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jade Green Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 What about when there wasnt a dumpoff man to go to, Chad didnt have the arm to reach other recievers, and couldnt make time for one to get open enough for him to reach. The dumpoff can only work so often, and will in all probability work less when teams have a whole offseason to study what Chad does (though it doesnt exactly take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. Sorry but Clemens was good for a pick in those situations, more than anything else, I'd take the dump off or the sack over the pick any day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSJ Posted July 28, 2008 Author Share Posted July 28, 2008 Sorry but Clemens was good for a pick in those situations, more than anything else, I'd take the dump off or the sack over the pick any day. And that right there is the reason there is a QB competition and the reason baring a trade Chad will be the starting QB on opening day. Get used to it now Jets fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-Mart28 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 He's throwing picks in practice with no pressure. I wish Clemens was the man, and that our QB problems were over, but Kellen has not shown anything to think that is the case. He is in a competiton with Chad Pennington, it is amazing how many people ignore the fact that, this is not good. It is bad, no doubt, the fact that Chad even has a chance is bad, but again I'll wait till those first two preseason games, whoever pulls ahead in those two will likely win it, for better or worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcord1786 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 He's throwing picks in practice with no pressure. I wish Clemens was the man, and that our QB problems were over, but Kellen has not shown anything to think that is the case. He is in a competiton with Chad Pennington, it is amazing how many people ignore the fact that, this is not good.[/quote] Can you give the guy some credit? I think its amazing how you ignore the fact that we have won playoff games with Chad as our QB. I understand that was 2002-2004 but you make it seem having him on the team is a bad thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetfan13 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 don't waste your breath jcord, it is useless btw, welcome aboard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSJ Posted July 28, 2008 Author Share Posted July 28, 2008 I agree welcom aboard and don't waste too much time on this topic. Let it play itslef out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jade Green Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 I just say that in response to how others view Chad, I give him credit for his accomplishments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jade Green Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 It is bad, no doubt, the fact that Chad even has a chance is bad, but again I'll wait till those first two preseason games, whoever pulls ahead in those two will likely win it, for better or worse.That is fine, but stop ignoring the obvious while you wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kobe24jets Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jade Green Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Please if anything Mangini wants Clemens to win, you know the guy he actually drafted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack48 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Exactly! I don't think anyone is "In love" with Chad (besides ecurb). But at this point he gives the team the best chance to win the most games. Clemens has shown me nothing at all so far in his short career. And that is why Clemens won 3 last year and Chad won 1. And Chad had the better receivers at his disposal. Right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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