Mangini annoyed with Kellen *cough*Browning Nagle*cough* Clemens

[RSJ]

This brings up an important point. If you're only going to give a QB drafted early a chance, then why do most people not want to draft QBs early? Why do we have Clemens if we think he sucks? What is the point of drafting some dude late if you're not going to give him a fair shot to start? Might as well use that pick on somebody else that CAN contribute. We could have solved our OL problem years ago instead of taking Clemens.

Or we could have just drafted someone really late, or signed an undrafted guy, and just kept him for years until we wanted to give him a shot, and just crossed our fingers.

No matter how I look at it, either Clemens was picked with the intention that he start, or he was a really ****ty pick and was taken way too early. It's one thing to take a guy in the 4th round and demand he do really well before he starts, it's another thing to take him in the 2nd and demand he proves he's a Pro Bowler before you let him play.

I think QB is the toughest position to scout. There are tons of 1st and 2nd round busts throughout history. You just never know how a QB's skills are going to translate into the NFL. If you like a guy though you should take a shot at him imo. Even if it means he could be a bust.

[124]

The Chadadites are out in true fashion. Every single one of them relives the Cincinnati throw to LC. Hey, newsflash, Kellen or Brett could make that throw 10 times a game. Chad? He has to work up enough arm strength over three or four weeks to make that throw once.

[LionelRichie]

So because Kellen can throw it 50 yards on a rope he is the better option? Not to mention that rope might be a DB or Safety? Didn't Cahd throw it 40+ aganist Cincy last year to LC to open the game? Your just facinated wth arm strength, unfortunatley that not the only thing you need to win games in the NFL.

you're right, chad looked like an all-pro last year. he consistently led the team to victory with outstanding downfield throws. his decision making was second to none and he led the team to comeback victories against top defenses. why there is even a competition is beyond me, clearly chadwick is not only the best qb on this team, he is probably the best qb in the afc if not the entire nfl.

[kelticwizard]

Good question why the Jets drafted Clemens when they did.

My guess is this: Mangini coached against chad and liked his style. He was looking forward to having him play QB for him. However, his arm was injured so he did not know for sure he was coming back.

So they obtained Pat Ramsey, who had shown flashes in difficult circumstances in Washington, and brought him over in case Chad's arm didn't come around. And they kind of liked Clemens, but figured he would need time to come around. If Chad's arm healed, then he's set for the starter for the next three or four years. If Chad's arm is not good, then at least Ramsey has won games in the league and might well become the starter himself. And if that doesn't happen, then they see how far along Clemens is and make a decision if he can be a starter.

In other words, Clemens was something of a project because they wanted to improve the offensive line with their first round picks and figured that Chad or Ramsey could do well with that better line.

[Irish Jet]

The Chadadites are out in true fashion. Every single one of them relives the Cincinnati throw to LC. Hey, newsflash, Kellen or Brett could make that throw 10 times a game. Chad? He has to work up enough arm strength over three or four weeks to make that throw once.

This comment makes no sense to me simply because Kellen made very few deep throws last season. There was a simple reason for it for both QB's. the line could not hold together long enough for the WR's to get downfield. Chad has proven he can throw it 50 yards, so has Clemens. Neither were able to do so last season for other reasons than their own inabilities.

[kelticwizard]

The Chadadites are out in true fashion. Every single one of them relives the Cincinnati throw to LC. Hey, newsflash, Kellen or Brett could make that throw 10 times a game. Chad? He has to work up enough arm strength over three or four weeks to make that throw once.

That's a silly statement. From the smoothness of his motion and the extreme accuracy of the ball, it was clear that Chad could throw the ball a few extra yards beyond where he did. But he didn't feel like thorowing the ball over Coles' head.

Either you can throw the ball accurately 50 yards or you can't. Building up strength over several weeks won't change that. Whether Chad can throw for 50 yards accurately for three consecutive plays I don't know, but that doesn't happen in a game anyway.

You're just trying to cover up the fact that when Chad's arm is healthy, this "arm strength" issue is way, way overrated.

[NJ]

I agree with 100% of your last two posts. I have stayed far away from this topic all offseason because Jets fans are quite frankly very, very unfair to Pennington. We are talking about a QB who has had more success than 90% of the QB's to ever wear green and white and they act like he has held the team back. That's why this team fails time and time again and why players need to leave here to win a super bowl.

His addition to the Jets offense has allowed us to win 4 games from teams that would finish the season with a better than .500 record. Unfair to him my azz - get him outta here.

[ghsxc]

I just dont understand this hatred of Chad. I live and die every week with the Jets. I understand he is not Dan Marino, but he certainly isnt Browning Nagle either. I think it may be time for Kellen to start but Chad has done a lot of good for the Jets as well. Unlike some other players he has been a good Jet. People seem to think we have all these great options at QB.....we dont. If I have to live with him at QB another year so be it....it could be worse. Take a look at Chicago...how would you like to have Rex Grossman for a year.

[jcord1786]

The Chadadites are out in true fashion. Every single one of them relives the Cincinnati throw to LC. Hey, newsflash, Kellen or Brett could make that throw 10 times a game. Chad? He has to work up enough arm strength over three or four weeks to make that throw once.

Or when he has enough time to step up in the pocket. Yes, I am a Chad fan here. Bu what is your obsession with starting Kellen what exactly has he done?

[serphnx]

That's a silly statement. From the smoothness of his motion and the extreme accuracy of the ball, it was clear that Chad could throw the ball a few extra yards beyond where he did. But he didn't feel like thorowing the ball over Coles' head.

Either you can throw the ball accurately 50 yards or you can't. Building up strength over several weeks won't change that. Whether Chad can throw for 50 yards accurately for three consecutive plays I don't know, but that doesn't happen in a game anyway.

You're just trying to cover up the fact that when Chad's arm is healthy, this "arm strength" issue is way, way overrated.

No, it does play a factor. When you don't have the arm strength, you try to overcompensate on your throws, and there is a degradation because of that. You say it's a health issue, but the effect is the same, because you are trying to throw so hard you can only do it once and then after that you need to recover by not doing anything, or else you can't recover.

Think of it like pitching. A control pitcher has an easier time and needs less rest than a power pitcher. But even the control guy falls apart if he overdoes it (and there are plenty of examples of that). Think of a pitcher in each game too, after some point they can't pitch anymore, and you need to take them out. If you try putting them back in too soon, it just makes it worse. For Chad, 1 week is too soon apparently.

In boxing, a lot of boxers actually get better as the rounds go on. The shots they throw have the most power in round 1 though. Why do they fight better later on? Because they are not throwing everything into each and every punch, and everything is flowing smoother as a result. For Chad, he tries to throw at full strength all the time because he's got pretty much nothing. But then he runs out even quicker and there's just nothing, so everything becomes a floater.

Now if you DO have enough power, you might overdo it at the beginning (Favre and Elway were notoriously guilty of this) but then as the game goes on you hit a rythm and you just go "on."

Chad just does NOT have the arm strength needed for the NFL, and it IS VERY important. There has never been a consistent elite NFL QB with Chad's arm. Even among the NFL, Chad probably has the worst arm among starting QBs.

Back to boxing again, just because I think it works well so often to illustrate. There are weight classes, and there is a reason for it. It doesn't matter how skilled a 157 lb guy is, he can be the best pound for pound guy in the world, but he'd get crushed by a 230 lb plus guy. Chad might be 220 lbs or whatever it is, but that arm, man, that ain't a heavyweight arm, and he sure as hell doesn't have heavyweight durability either.

[124]

Or when he has enough time to step up in the pocket. Yes, I am a Chad fan here. Bu what is your obsession with starting Kellen what exactly has he done?

What has Chad done since 2002? Game manage two teams into the playoffs and then do nothing but fail to score points (Pittsburgh 05) and throw clutch interceptions and fail to score points (New England 07)? I don't have an obsession with Clemens, sorry, I have an obsession with winning. Frankly, I don't want either to be starting come September 7th.

[124]

That's a silly statement. From the smoothness of his motion and the extreme accuracy of the ball, it was clear that Chad could throw the ball a few extra yards beyond where he did. But he didn't feel like thorowing the ball over Coles' head.

Either you can throw the ball accurately 50 yards or you can't. Building up strength over several weeks won't change that. Whether Chad can throw for 50 yards accurately for three consecutive plays I don't know, but that doesn't happen in a game anyway.

You're just trying to cover up the fact that when Chad's arm is healthy, this "arm strength" issue is way, way overrated.

No, not really. He has a MAJOR arm strength issue. Chad Pennington cannot win you a game. Chad Pennington has the weakest arm of any Quarterback in the NFL, easily. If your team is down by 10 points with 6 or 7 minutes to play and Chad Pennington is your starting Quarterback, well, the fans can head to the exits and or turn off their TV sets because its over because he does not have the ability to stage a comeback unless there is a 50-60 yard YAC play.

Pennington has to work up his arm to throw certain balls and his deep balls arn't pretty either. They're lofted up their hanging in the air so that most of the time the receiver cannot just simply catch it and run into the endzone. Luckily for the Jets, Coles is one of the fastest receivers out there (via 40 time at least) and Cincinnati's secondary is just god awful.

One pass against a horrible defense means nothing. Chad's arm strength is a major issue. He'll never be a Quarterback again, he'll always, from mid season 2004 and on, be nothing but a Game Manager and a Game Manager needs a GREAT Defense and a GREAT rushing performance to win a Super Bowl. Do you believe we have that? If not, Chad shouldn't be our guy.

But in the end, he will be, because the Jets will **** up the Favre situation in true Jets fashion and will give the veteran the job after spending over $140 million in free agency and the draft.

[Jetkid94]

personally if we dont get Favre I want Chad to start.

but anyway we will see KC and CP in game action in only 10 days!

[Kentucky Jet]

Exactly! I don't think anyone is "In love" with Chad (besides ecurb). But at this point he gives the team the best chance to win the most games. Clemens has shown me nothing at all so far in his short career.

and what did CHAD show you last year? I see the kid won more games then the great vet. In fact if his teammates held on to a few accurate passes, Kellen would have won 2 more games for a total of 5 with a very bad OL. not too bad considering.

[jcord1786]

What has Chad done since 2002? Game manage two teams into the playoffs and then do nothing but fail to score points (Pittsburgh 05) and throw clutch interceptions and fail to score points (New England 07)? I don't have an obsession with Clemens, sorry, I have an obsession with winning. Frankly, I don't want either to be starting come September 7th.

My point is you forget that he has won playoff games for this team. Pitsburgh in 05 he had a seperated shoulder and he still played the game. If he sits that game evry1 would be bashing him for it. I have an obsessionw ith winning just like you do. I just believe we have a better chance at winning games this season with Chad as our QB.

[gang_green03]

A half of a season isn't a big enough sample? Looking worse than Brodie Croyle in a head to head game against the worst defense in the league by far isn't enough of a sample? You guys are grasping at straws here.

Actually I was talking about a small training camp sample size but yes half a season is not even close to a big enough sample. Most people would agree you need at least 2 full seasons to judge a young QB (preferably 3). I don't know about you but I don't know of many QBs that looked good in their first season.

And I really hope you're not trying to base anything off of one game. If you wanna play that game then you could pick apart Chad as well. In fact, if you wanna base things off half a season then Chad and Clemens are equally garbage and all things equal, it makes sense to give the nod to the player with the most potential.

[Irish Jet]

Actually I was talking about a small training camp sample size but yes half a season is not even close to a big enough sample. Most people would agree you need at least 2 full seasons to judge a young QB (preferably 3). I don't know about you but I don't know of many QBs that looked good in their first season.

And I really hope you're not trying to base anything off of one game. If you wanna play that game then you could pick apart Chad as well. In fact, if you wanna base things off half a season then Chad and Clemens are equally garbage and all things equal, it makes sense to give the nod to the player with the most potential.

The judgement period is done over everything he's done in his NFL career so far. He is now in his 3rd season and regardless of the circumstances he still hasn't shown anything to give us genuine hope.

He now has a golden opportunity to beat out a QB who according to most is 'done' yet he seems to be pissing it away. If he can't make the most of his chance then he quite simply does not deserve to be given this team.

[Jetfan13]

The judgement period is done over everything he's done in his NFL career so far. He is now in his 3rd season and regardless of the circumstances he still hasn't shown anything to give us genuine hope.

He now has a golden opportunity to beat out a QB who according to most is 'done' yet he seems to be pissing it away. If he can't make the most of his chance then he quite simply does not deserve to be given this team.

perfectly said. I have said the same thing and have been labeled a Chad lover. If you can't beat the guy out, you suck even worse.

[gang_green03]

The judgement period is done over everything he's done in his NFL career so far. He is now in his 3rd season and regardless of the circumstances he still hasn't shown anything to give us genuine hope.

He now has a golden opportunity to beat out a QB who according to most is 'done' yet he seems to be pissing it away. If he can't make the most of his chance then he quite simply does not deserve to be given this team.

That's fine, but my point is give him until his 3rd year is completed to pass judgement. And I really can't see how you can base anything off his rookie year when he didn't even have a chance of starting. And even though I'd rather see him start the season since its perfectly reasonable for a seasoned vet to look better than a young player in practice, at least give him more than a week to show whether he can beat out Chad. If at the end of preseason he's still shown nothing to warrant starting over Chad then we'll have to move on, but until then its very annoying when people are so quick to pass judgement.

[Jetfan13]

That's fine, but my point is give him until his 3rd year is completed to pass judgement. And I really can't see how you can base anything off his rookie year when he didn't even have a chance of starting. And even though I'd rather see him start the season since its perfectly reasonable for a seasoned vet to look better than a young player in practice, at least give him more than a week to show whether he can beat out Chad. If at the end of preseason he's still shown nothing to warrant starting over Chad then we'll have to move on, but until then its very annoying when people are so quick to pass judgement.

so you guys are willing to risk throwing the entire year away just so you can say" I was right, Chad sucks and KC got the job?" Please stop the insanity.

[Irish Jet]

That's fine, but my point is give him until his 3rd year is completed to pass judgement. And I really can't see how you can base anything off his rookie year when he didn't even have a chance of starting. And even though I'd rather see him start the season since its perfectly reasonable for a seasoned vet to look better than a young player in practice, at least give him more than a week to show whether he can beat out Chad. If at the end of preseason he's still shown nothing to warrant starting over Chad then we'll have to move on, but until then its very annoying when people are so quick to pass judgement.

Of course he gets judged on his rookie year. Not by the fans obviously as we never seen him play but by the coaching staff his performances in camp, how he adapted to the pro level must all be evaluated.

Mangni has had Clemens for two full seasons and he still isn't convinced he's ready, hence the QB battle. By all reports I've read he doesn't seem to be helping himself out in this QB battle either.

My point is there has been a lot more to this evaluation process than a week or two at Training Camp. It spans out throughout Clemens' career, and how he's developed in Mangni's eyes. He's giving Clemens his chance to shine and as of now he doesn't seem to be stepping up. Hopefully in the near future this changes.

I want whoever wins this QB competition to win it because they have earned it. Not because of the piss poor opposition.

[gang_green03]

Of course he gets judged on his rookie year. Not by the fans obviously as we never seen him play but by the coaching staff his performances in camp, how he adapted to the pro level must all be evaluated.

Mangni has had Clemens for two full seasons and he still isn't convinced he's ready, hence the QB battle. By all reports I've read he doesn't seem to be helping himself out in this QB battle either.

My point is there has been a lot more to this evaluation process than a week or two at Training Camp. It spans out throughout Clemens' career, and how he's developed in Mangni's eyes. He's giving Clemens his chance to shine and as of now he doesn't seem to be stepping up. Hopefully in the near future this changes.

I want whoever wins this QB competition to win it because they have earned it. Not because of the piss poor opposition.

That's a fair point. My only problem is with the people that are jumping to conclusions and making blanket statements based off a week of training camp. I'd have no problems if it were mid august, but as of now its too early.

To be honest I'm discouraged by both QB's at this point. They both need to get it together or we're even weaker at the position than I thought.

[Jetfan13]

That's a fair point. My only problem is with the people that are jumping to conclusions and making blanket statements based off a week of training camp. I'd have no problems if it were mid august, but as of now its too early.

To be honest I'm discouraged by both QB's at this point. They both need to get it together or we're even weaker at the position than I thought.

this is his 3rd camp..

but I do agree with the last part of your post

[jcord1786]

That's a fair point. My only problem is with the people that are jumping to conclusions and making blanket statements based off a week of training camp. I'd have no problems if it were mid august, but as of now its too early.

To be honest I'm discouraged by both QB's at this point. They both need to get it together or we're even weaker at the position than I thought.

I personally think that what happens is some fans bash Chad so bad, that the people who try to defend him, have to knock Clemens. I think the best QB should play whoever gives us the best chance to win.. I just have a problem with some people that say Chad shouldn't be even given that chance to compete.

[gang_green03]

so you guys are willing to risk throwing the entire year away just so you can say" I was right, Chad sucks and KC got the job?" Please stop the insanity.

The point is to wait until you have a lot more practices and a couple preseason games before you rush to judgement on this QB battle. Like I said if Chad wins the battle then it would make sense to scrap the expectation of Clemens being the long-term answer at QB. But until then, we don't know for sure whether or not he sucks. But, as of now the two top QBs on our roster suck.

[kelticwizard]

I personally think that what happens is some fans bash Chad so bad, that the people who try to defend him, have to knock Clemens. I think the best QB should play whoever gives us the best chance to win.. I just have a problem with some people that say Chad shouldn't be even given that chance to compete.

I couldn't agree more. Not so much on Jet Nation, but elsewhere if you even say "Let them compete fairly and let the best man win" you get jumped on by people hollering that Chad should be run out of town on a rail.

If Kellen can step up-and often the third year is the breakthrough for young QB's-then that would be great. But he doesn't deserve to have it handed to him.

[jcord1786]

I couldn't agree more. Not so much on Jet Nation, but elsewhere if you even say "Let them compete fairly and let the best man win" you get jumped on by people hollering that Chad should be run out of town on a rail.

If Kellen can step up-and often the third year is the breakthrough for young QB's-then that would be great. But he doesn't deserve to have it handed to him.

Exactly..

[jack48]

LOL, a fan of Clemens trying to criticise Chad using the term 'happy feet'. Priceless.

I am not a fan of Clemens. I am not a fan of Chad. I am sick of Chad and his mediocrity. I am sick of his con. He has happy feet. Clemens may have them too but at least he can use them to escape. Chad moves like a walrus.

[kelticwizard]

No, it [arm strength] does play a factor. When you don't have the arm strength, you try to overcompensate on your throws, and there is a degradation because of that. You say it's a health issue, but the effect is the same, because you are trying to throw so hard you can only do it once and then after that you need to recover by not doing anything, or else you can't recover.

Think of it like pitching. A control pitcher has an easier time and needs less rest than a power pitcher. But even the control guy falls apart if he overdoes it (and there are plenty of examples of that). Think of a pitcher in each game too, after some point they can't pitch anymore, and you need to take them out. If you try putting them back in too soon, it just makes it worse. For Chad, 1 week is too soon apparently.

You are just so far off here that is hard to know where to begin.

I once saw a TV program where they gave several NFL QBs tasks to do which supposedly measured their skill. One of them was to throw the football as far as possible, and Favre was favored. I believe he did win, with a throw just under 80 yards. Right after the task, Favre went over to a group of kids on the sideline and had them hand him footballs which he then immediately tossed as far as he could. One right after the other, about 5 seconds from Brett getting his hand on the football and throwing it to reaching for yet another one. Favre made at least eight or nine throws, all of them just over or under 80 yards. There was no discernible loss of yardage at all as he went through the process.

We all know that Brett has a stronger arm than Chad, but the idea that one NFL QB can throw nine or more footballs in a row without losing yardage on the throw while another requires over a week to recover from ONE throw is quite ridiculous. Throwing a football as long as you can only takes a second, and assuming you are used to the motion, anybody can easily throw one after the other several times before fatigue sets in and limits the yardage. How long that yardage may be depends on the individual, of course, but fatigue will not cause the yardage to decrease until after many, many throws in a row.

[kelticwizard]

Chad just does NOT have the arm strength needed for the NFL, and it IS VERY important. There has never been a consistent elite NFL QB with Chad's arm. Even among the NFL, Chad probably has the worst arm among starting QBs.

An appeal to logic. Out of the total group of QBs able to get the job done and win ball games, one of them has to have the strongest arm and one of them has to have the softest. This is a statistical necessity, no way around it. Saying that Chad's arm is the weakest of the group, therefore he cannot win football games is clearly absurd, since Chad already belongs to the group of QB's which DO win football games. So the whole arm strength argument goes out the window.

[KSJets]

Chad CAN throw the ball deep...he just chooses to be ultraconservative. He was pussified by Herm IMO, afraid to take chances and make mistakes.

[MagicBizkit87]

Chad CAN throw the ball deep...he just chooses to be ultraconservative. He was pussified by Herm IMO, afraid to take chances and make mistakes.

I think you're 100% correct with that statement. Since Herm is a conservative coach, he made Chad a conservative quarterback. We all remember how Chad performed in 2002, not really making any mistakes, he was a great quarterback, and that year he was probably better than Peyton Manning, seeing how he shut the Colts out 41-0 in a game.

Chad can definitely throw the ball deep, I just wish he would give it more of a chance though. Everyone on this site should know Chad is definitely the smarter quarterback between him and Kellen.

Personally, I honestly don't care who starts for us, if it's Kellen Clemens, fine. If it's Chad Pennington, fine. If it's Brett Favre, fine. I just want the quarterback who will give us the best chance to be a winner. I don't think either Chad, or Kellen can provide that, and I don't think Favre will be here, but the better quarterback is definitely Chad if were talking about him or Kellen.

[KSJets]

I think Chad will win the competition, but I'd actually prefer to see what Kellen has over the course of a whole season. They need to see if he's the QB of the future or not.

[PFSIKH]

Chad CAN throw the ball deep...he just chooses to be ultraconservative. He was pussified by Herm IMO, afraid to take chances and make mistakes.

I can throw the ball deep, but it does not make me an NFL QB.

Chad is limited. He is tremendously accurate under 10 yards. Anything beyond that he is severly limited.

If his number over 10 yards were historically good then your point about Herm would be accurate, but they have been terrible.

[KSJets]

I can throw the ball deep, but it does not make me an NFL QB.

Chad is limited. He is tremendously accurate under 10 yards. Anything beyond that he is severly limited.

If his number over 10 yards were historically good then your point about Herm would be accurate, but they have been terrible.

That's bull**** because Chad's completion percentage over the years on deep passes has actually be very good. He just doesn't heave the ball that often over 30-40 yards.