NFL.com| Gholston's rookie struggles tell cautionary combine tale

[bitonti]

Vernon Gholston is the all time sack leader at one of the best football factories in the nation, in only 23 starts.

Please let's stop pretending he showed up one day, flexed his muscles and got drafted purely on how he looked in shorts. the guy has literally off the charts production. this is not in any way comparable to Drob who had no production.

[bitonti]

We also saw workout wonder drob do nothing and get cut after he was sent for nothing to the broncos. Bryan Thomas isn't too far behind.

yeah bryan thomas is such a bust he got signed to a second contract.

here's the news Jets fans being a solid starter like Bryan Thomas or even Drob in 04-06 is not the same as being a bust. a Bust never plays. he goes to the crazy house or gets arrested.

here's a question if a player never reaches unrealistically high expectations is it the fault of the player or the expectations?

[Matt39]

yeah bryan thomas is such a bust he got signed to a second contract.

here's the news Jets fans being a solid starter like Bryan Thomas or even Drob in 04-06 is not the same as being a bust. a Bust never plays. he goes to the crazy house or gets arrested.

here's a question if a player never reaches unrealistically high expectations is it the fault of the player or the expectations?

Solid starter and Bryan THomas should never be used in the same sentence.

He's not an all out bust, but he's not a good player, either. Where he was drafted and with who was still left on the board it was an awful pick.

Bryan Thomas is a non impact player.

[bitonti]

Where he was drafted and with who was still left on the board it was an awful pick.

a person who starts is by definition a starter

with the benefit of hindsight the draft is easiest activity in the world.

if anyone can come up with a pick at 6 that made better sense than Vernon Gholston, that wouldn't have been derided as a reach, im all ears.

[Matt39]

a person who starts is by definition a starter

with the benefit of hindsight the draft is easiest activity in the world.

if anyone can come up with a pick at 6 that made better sense than Vernon Gholston, that wouldn't have been derided as a reach, im all ears.

I was talking about Thomas.

The Jets were in a tough spot with Gholston- even though I thought he would suck.

[RaoulDuke]

http://www.nfl.com/combine/story?id=09000d5d80ec673c&template=without-video-with-comments&confirm=true

Here is how one veteran Jets player, requesting anonymity, described it: "You heard more guys in the locker room upset about Vernon than you did anything Brett Favre did or didn't do. Vernon is talented and athletic but that is not the issue. It is more about him believing in himself and caring about the game. What, he got something like $20 million guaranteed? Guys were asking what's up with that?

"For that, you expect something right now. The attitude has to get better. He walked around like, sure, he's got the money, but you wondered did he want to play for 10 or 20 years and be a champion and make Pro Bowls? I saw it. I heard the reaction to it. And if a player tells you he doesn't hear those kind of whispers, he is lying. Any player that gives a damn is not going to play around with that. You have to do what you have to do to prove people wrong. You have to earn that locker room respect. Go out and knock somebody's head off this year. Have a 10-sack year and people will forget about his rookie year. Right now he's built like Tarzan, plays like Jane. But he's young. He has the size and speed to do damage."

Ugh...that sounds awful.

I pray Rex will ignite a fire under his ass so big, he won't be able to sit down for all of next season.

[bitonti]

I was talking about Thomas.

The Jets were in a tough spot with Gholston- even though I thought he would suck.

so you don't have any better ideas - guess what neither do I - it was the only pick that made any sense

as for Thomas he had like 8 or 9 sacks a couple years ago... some of those were pretty big plays. the guy didn't break the all time sack record that doesn't make him a bust.

[bitonti]

Ugh...that sounds awful.

I pray Rex will ignite a fire under his ass so big, he won't be able to sit down for all of next season.

alot of that quote was the normal, vet players jealous at rookies thing that has gone on for years

if we think about it tho, what's fair is fair. If a team decides that a certain player is the 4th or 6th best out of a potential candidate pool of a thousand that certain player deserves to get paid. the laws of supply and demand shouldn't cease when we are talking about the draft.

[aec4]

the same jokers that call Vernon Gholston a bust would take him on their team, today. A 266 pound dude who runs a 4.6 and is solid muscle... you bet they'd find a place for Vernon Gholston.

as for jets fans calling him a bust, there's just no excuse. We should know better than that. We saw Hugh Douglas go to the pro bowl 2 years after leaving the Jets and we saw James Farrior do the same.

This is gonna sound obvious but sometimes 23 year olds are boys and they are playing a man's game. Will VG grow up? Stay tuned but the draft is about potential and anyone who says there was a pick that made better sense at 6 overall is a flat out liar.

I must be a joker then.

I think anyone would take him on their team as a 4th rounder paying him close to league minimum.. but at 12-20M guaranteed (I forget which), PASS... and I said this PRE DRAFT last yr.

[Sperm Edwards]

yeah bryan thomas is such a bust he got signed to a second contract.

here's the news Jets fans being a solid starter like Bryan Thomas or even Drob in 04-06 is not the same as being a bust. a Bust never plays. he goes to the crazy house or gets arrested.

here's a question if a player never reaches unrealistically high expectations is it the fault of the player or the expectations?

Drafted in 2002, Bryan Thomas was a "solid" starter for half a season in 2006 and for a quarter of a season in 2008. For a first round pick, that's a bust. Have there been bigger busts? Yes.

But you alone have this personal definition of a bust as a guy who has to be at Mike Williams (take your pick which one) & Jonathan Sullivan levels.

With that set of standards, you must consider Mike Mamula to have been a good pick for the Eagles because he started for 4 seasons & had 8 sacks in two of them.

You have a different definition of "bust" than most people. Or most NFL teams. Most want to get value for a pick. You seem content with the guy just being mediocre even if he was drafted (and paid) to be stellar.

If that's your attitude, you must think it utterly foolish for a team to keep a top-6 pick instead of trading it away for a proven player every single time. Particularly since these days veterans make the same or less money. Look at all the hoops Arizona is jumping through to not give Boldin $9M/year or the headlines yelling "Overpaid!!!" when the Jets pick up guys like Faneca and Woody and Pace. Meanwhile Jamarcus Russell, Glenn Dorsey, Darren McFadden, and Vernon Gholston are all signed to deals that can average 8 figures per season with the same or greater amount guaranteed. AND the first year or two of those rookie deals you have to wait for the "real" production to start, if it ever comes at all.

There are starters and there are starters. Bryan Thomas is a starter. Demarcus Ware is also a starter. You are equating the two, just like you did with DRob, who you called a "stud" year after year after year.

The draft is about value. All starters are not equal. Given the return compensation a team forgoes in keeping the pick, and the money paid to that player these days, there is reasonable expectation that better picks will yield better players. When they do not, they are called busts and relative busts. Thomas and DRob were relative busts, like a Ryan Sims was for KC. Others like and Charles Rogers were total busts.

You completely ignore the "benefit of the doubt" these top picks get. They are afforded starts that they do not deserve quite often. Was Sammy Davis worthy of starting for two full seasons in San Diego? Was Alex Smith worthy of starting in San Fran? You would consider these players non-busts. Byron Leftwich was a "solid starter" for 3 seasons. Considering that it took the 7th pick in the country to get him, he was a bust. If you don't think so, then you must advocate trading the 7th pick away this year for someone who you figure to have Leftwich's career.

[Sperm Edwards]

a person who starts is by definition a starter

with the benefit of hindsight the draft is easiest activity in the world.

if anyone can come up with a pick at 6 that made better sense than Vernon Gholston, that wouldn't have been derided as a reach, im all ears.

This is the only thing you've written in this thread that I can agree with. Then again, I wanted to trade down in the first place if we weren't able to move up for Ryan.

It is laughable for people to now say "oh, we should have taken Joe Flacco at #6" when he was somewhat of a surprise (not to mention a reach) to be taken anywhere in round 1. His working out for Baltimore (so far) does not change that. The only reason he shot up that high is because there was Matt Ryan and no one else at QB in this draft. If there were Byron Leftwiches, Rex Grossmans, Kyle Bollers, and/or JP Losmans available, Flacco would not have been taken until round 3, where he was originally projected to go. And now I've seen Tannenbaum called "stupid" for not massively reaching for him at #6 overall.

Same thing with Jerod Mayo. Kiper would have been laughing his silly hairdo off and the NY (and national) media would have re-printed his & their own criticisms ad nauseum for endless months had we taken him at #6 with Gholston on the board. Even worse if NE then took Gholston at #7 instead of trading down. The "draft grades" would have been F's across the board for reaching so badly. Everyone would have been calling for Tannenbaum's head because he's not a "football guy" and doesn't know what he's doing. All the heads at JN & other boards would have exploded in unison.

I must be a joker then.

I think anyone would take him on their team as a 4th rounder paying him close to league minimum.. but at 12-20M guaranteed (I forget which), PASS... and I said this PRE DRAFT last yr.

It was $20M.

I only didn't like Gholston at #6 because we were forcing a position change. And to me, that's too high of a pick to do that with and expect results. Every pick comes with a bust-factor. You're inviting it when you draft a guy and tell him you're changing him from the position that made him such a good prospect in the first place. You want to do that with Brad Smith in round 4, fine.

At #6, the contracts have become too expensive to risk a position change for me.

[RaoulDuke]

"It doesn't matter where you pick them, it matters how they play"

Bill Walsh

I'm not so worried about the money tied up on VG. It's hit or miss on draft day.

I'm worried that we may have seen all he has to offer. If anyone can find the key, I'm sure it's Rex.

[Sperm Edwards]

"It doesn't matter where you pick them, it matters how they play"

Bill Walsh

I'm not so worried about the money tied up on VG. It's hit or miss on draft day.

I'm worried that we may have seen all he has to offer. If anyone can find the key, I'm sure it's Rex.

In Bill Walsh's day, they didn't have a salary cap, free agency, nor guaranteed $20M+ clauses in rookie contracts that hamper a team's ability at managing both the salary cap and free agency.

[bitonti]

I must be a joker then.

I think anyone would take him on their team as a 4th rounder paying him close to league minimum.. but at 12-20M guaranteed (I forget which), PASS... and I said this PRE DRAFT last yr.

i never brought salary into the discussion. what I said was essentially if he gets cut he gets another job tomorrow, that's not really a bust.

we can complain about the money spent but even that isn't a guaruntee, they could have given that money to the next Kenyon coleman i.e. it's probably easier to waste money in FA than in the draft.

by the way if Gholston was "safer" he wouldn't have gone 6. he might have gone 1 overall.

[Sperm Edwards]

i never brought salary into the discussion. what I said was essentially if he gets cut he gets another job tomorrow, that's not really a bust.

we can complain about the money spent but even that isn't a guaruntee, they could have given that money to the next Kenyon coleman i.e. it's probably easier to waste money in FA than in the draft.

by the way if Gholston was "safer" he wouldn't have gone 6. he might have gone 1 overall.

Kenyon Coleman got $6M guaranteed. Gholston got $20M guaranteed. It isn't even in the same ballpark.

It is easier to waste money in FA, but it's less of a crap shoot. You've at least seen FA's against NFL talent.

[aec4]

i never brought salary into the discussion. what I said was essentially if he gets cut he gets another job tomorrow, that's not really a bust.

we can complain about the money spent but even that isn't a guaruntee, they could have given that money to the next Kenyon coleman i.e. it's probably easier to waste money in FA than in the draft.

by the way if Gholston was "safer" he wouldn't have gone 6. he might have gone 1 overall.

Sure it is.. Gholston has NFL talent, noone doubts that. He probably doesn't have an NFL head. However, you need both to be a good 1st roudner and he doesn't have it.

The position/round you were drafted has a lot to do with your bust status. If a 7th rounder doesn't make it, noone cares. If a 1st rounder doesn't do much of anything, he's a bust.

The draft is just as much of a crapshoot as FA.. I agree.. The point is the Jets didn't have to take Gholston, but they were going to take someone.

[bitonti]

But you alone have this personal definition of a bust as a guy who has to be at Mike Williams (take your pick which one) & Jonathan Sullivan levels.

With that set of standards, you must consider Mike Mamula to have been a good pick for the Eagles because he started for 4 seasons & had 8 sacks in two of them.

You have a different definition of "bust" than most people. Or most NFL teams. Most want to get value for a pick. You seem content with the guy just being mediocre even if he was drafted (and paid) to be stellar.

I don't think I am alone in this... it's just a matter of properly defining the word BUST.

for me there is alot of real estate between excellent super star --> pretty good starter --> mediocre rotational ST guy --> bad player who never sees the field i.e. BUST.

even if a player is mediocre special teamer that's still not the same as a BUST. YES I believe A bust is someone like Demitrius Underwood or Jon Sullivan. A flat out failure. Some one who contributes to their team is not a bust, technically speaking. Using the Jets i'd say Schlegel was a bust... Blair Thomas was a bust. but Johnny Mitchell was a solid starter for a while... Drob level of dissapointment sure but not a true BUST.

If we go with the common usage than there are 90% busts and maybe 10% stars and no middle ground. That's not how the draft works... it might be how it works in the game of expectations but these guys don't play expectation games they play football. A player can be picked very highly, never live up to the hype but still have a good career.

Let's take Vinny Testaverde for example. Threw for a million yards. Played on some pretty good teams, had some pretty good games. but never won a ring and also threw INT'S like crazy. well he's at least a solid starter in my book, i don't think it's fair to call him a BUST because he never lived up to #1 overall billing. There has to be shades of gray here. Do you call Vinny T a bust?

[bitonti]

The point is the Jets didn't have to take Gholston, but they were going to take someone.

Gholston was a 1 overall talent with questions about his head. If he had no questions about his head (i.e. risk) he would have gone higher. As it stands for the Jets to take someone else (who?) that would be passing up the last blue chip player on the board to take a red chip player. It makes no sense. Always take the premium talent and roll the dice... don't reach for a clearly lesser player just because he's less risky.

[AFJF]

I have to agree with Bit on this particular point. The draft is such a crap shoot that I think any player drafted who is a regular contributor can't be called a bust. Now can that player be a huge disappointment? Absolutely. IMO, a guy like Bryan Thomas is just that. His production has been disappointing but he's done enough to solidify himself as a regular in the NFL and would have no problem getting a job elsewhere if released.

Go back and look at day one picks over the past few years and I guarentee you there will be countless names that you'll swear you've never even heard or can't remember being drafted because they weren't in the league long enogh to make any impression whatsoever. There are lots of players that fit in to that category and IMO, those are guys who are far worse than being a disappointment, they're busts. Got picked, paid and didn't contribute a damn thing.

JMO

[Aten]

The only reason you don't like the alternatives is cause you refuse to accept trade scenarios..

The only reason you do like the alternatives is that you think you can trade down via fiat.

[BroadwayJoe12]

I have to agree with Bit on this particular point. The draft is such a crap shoot that I think any player drafted who is a regular contributor can't be called a bust. Now can that player be a huge disappointment? Absolutely. IMO, a guy like Bryan Thomas is just that. His production has been disappointing but he's done enough to solidify himself as a regular in the NFL and would have no problem getting a job elsewhere if released.

Go back and look at day one picks over the past few years and I guarentee you there will be countless names that you'll swear you've never even heard or can't remember being drafted because they weren't in the league long enogh to make any impression whatsoever. There are lots of players that fit in to that category and IMO, those are guys who are far worse than being a disappointment, they're busts. Got picked, paid and didn't contribute a damn thing.

JMO

I disagree that the draft is a crapshoot, in the notion that it doesn't matter who you select it's all chance. I think there is a bit of chance involved with it of course, but it's no coincidence that teams like the Chargers, Pats and Colts seem to draft quite well consistently. Of course they'll miss on players, but I would disagree that it's a total crapshoot.

I definitely agree with you 100% that people lay the term bust instead of dissapointment. Those are not interchangeable terms, but are used so often by those who follow the Draft and NFL. Like you said, Bryan Thomas is not a bust, but he is a major dissapointment, same thing with Drob.

I have trouble calling a guy like Drob, who never really complained while starting out of position and not missing a game, a true bust. He is however, a total dissapointment. But like Bit proposed, is that the fault of the media/FO for setting his expectations too high??

I also do not believe the word bust can be used until a player has been in the league for 3 years, that's just my opinion. Additionally, there should be a larger vocabulary to describe players that don't live up to expectations, ie. dissapointment. This is important because, as aforementioned by BIT, in the fans eyes, you are either a super-star, star or bust.