Would you make this trade if you were Mike Tannenbaum?

[slats]

Of course the new head coach is going to have nothing but nice things to say about a young player who is locked up long term when he first gets here.

Unless he's Josh McDaniels, apparently.

And Rex is not going to get rid of any of them for a QB.

Rex is building a championship defense with the KILL mentality. That's his stated goal. A key part of that is Rhodes. So you want to screw up this championship defense for a QB.

Even as a defensive coach, if Rex doesn't understand that QB is the most important position on the field, he's not very bright. But I don't think that's the case. He's spent his NFL career stopping QB's, he knows their value.

Look at the franchise tag as an illustration. The NFL & NFLPA set up the tag based on what they believe is the most important position on down. In order of priority it is:

QB

DE

CB

LT

These are the 4 most important positions on the team according to the NFL & NFLPA. The Jets are hurting themselves and a championship caliber defense by getting rid of the franchise CB to get a franchise QB. It ends up a Zero sum gain.

I'd like to see the percentages, too. You're telling us that QB is more important than CB, and clearly much more important than safety. You rarely see safeties franchised.

Lets be honest here and take off the green colored glasses.

For OT. Woody is a decent plug in guy - he's been doing admirably and is a solid run blocker, but he's just a guy, he was a upgrade over Clement but that's not a high bar to set. He's a good guy for a strong rotation, can play RG, RT but he needs to be upgraded with a younger cheaper better option with long term potential. After this year Woody's contract is below average and trends towards backup dollars by 2011.

Woody: Signed a five-year, $25.5 million contract. The deal contains $11 million guaranteed, including a $2.55 million signing bonus and $400,000 in annual workout/weight clauses. 2009: $5.6 million, 2010: $3.75 million, 2011: $3.35 million, 2012: $3.1 million, 2013: Free Agent

Lito has been falling out of favor for a while and lost his job to Brown last year. He is not the high impact guy he once was. Injuries have also been a factor with this guy. We got him on the cheap and it was a good move, but a lock to be an effective starting CB he's not.

SS Leonard? Good guy, provides depth and familiarity to the defensive schemes. But if he were truly a great option at SS the Bills and Ravens would not have let him go. He's more valuable for his knowledge than his play. He perfomed admirably in spot duty for the Ravens, but he's no starter.

All this talk of elite defense is premature. Harris and Scott are a good ILB tandem. Pace still can't cover anyone and Gholston is an unknown and BT is a contract year performer who has admitted laziness and por work ethic. We have Revis and Rhodes in the secondary and a bunch of average talent. Ellis and Coleman are good solid players but not near the caliber of other impact performers at the 3-4 DE spots around the league. Jenks is a beast but can't hold up all season long.

I agree with all of this, but I can't for the life of me figure out how it's an argument against trading for a 25 year old potential franchise QB.

This is what boggles the mind here. Every other team which is rumored to be in the Cutler mix are not trading any starters from other positions.

But, somehow, the Jets should give up a starter on defense. Makes no sense.

Other teams have starting caliber QB's to offer, the Jets don't. If they're serious about making the trade, they're going to have to offer up something of value. Otherwise, they'll miss out. They have to decide what it's worth to them. A starting safety for a starting QB, that's gotta be worth it.

[lancemehl]

The backup NT was part of the equation, as is the other spots we need to address.

I am completely taking this sentence out of a bigger context, but just because his name is in that sentence, we all agree that Pouha at NT is an abomination, right.

Am I the only one that notices a guaranteed first down for the opponent with him on the field. He should be on a practice squad, really.

[JustInFudge]

FWIW, I would like to point out how HUGE of an impact safties played last year in the NFL

Here's a look at the playoffs teams of last season...

AFC

Pitt - Troy P/Clark

Balt - Reed/Leonhard

Tennesse - Griffin/Hope

San Diego - Weddle/Hart

Indy - Sanders/Bathea

Miami - Bell/Hill

NFC

Arizona - Wilson/Rolle

Philly - Dawkins/Mikell

Car - Godfrey/Harris - not great but solid playes

NYG - Phillips/Butler

ATL - Milloy/Coleman

Minn - Sharper/Williams

As you can see, most of the teams that made the playoffs had stellar play from their safety position. The only team that really just had terrible safties was the Dolphags and they were coincidently ousted by a team that had HUGE games from their starting safties (one of which is now on the NY Jets!)

[NFLs StepChild]

I am completely taking this sentence out of a bigger context, but just because his name is in that sentence, we all agree that Pouha at NT is an abomination, right.

Am I the only one that notices a guaranteed first down for the opponent with him on the field. He should be on a practice squad, really.

He's only good for getting Somoan free agent OG's from Pittsburgh. Oh wait...

[NFLs StepChild]

I agree with all of this, but I can't for the life of me figure out how it's an argument against trading for a 25 year old potential franchise QB.

I'm not against trading for him. I actually want him. The arguement is for how much.

[Barton]

FWIW, I would like to point out how HUGE of an impact safties played last year in the NFL

Here's a look at the playoffs teams of last season...

AFC

Pitt - Troy P/Clark

Balt - Reed/Leonhard

Tennesse - Griffin/Hope

San Diego - Weddle/Hart

Indy - Sanders/Bathea

Miami - Bell/Hill

NFC

Arizona - Wilson/Rolle

Philly - Dawkins/Mikell

Car - Godfrey/Harris - not great but solid playes

NYG - Phillips/Butler

ATL - Milloy/Coleman

Minn - Sharper/Williams

As you can see, most of the teams that made the playoffs had stellar play from their safety position. The only team that really just had terrible safties was the Dolphags and they were coincidently ousted by a team that had HUGE games from their starting safties (one of which is now on the NY Jets!)

short term thinking

Good safetys are available every offseason. Good quarterbacks, esp young ones, are almsot never.

Value is completely different.

Within a year or 2 you can find a safety as good as Rhodes. Can you say the same thing for a QB and Cutler?

[slats]

I'm not against trading for him. I actually want him. The arguement is for how much.

So is the #17 and Rhodes too much for you, then? Because that's probably a starting point in negotiations if you really want to land him.

[NFLs StepChild]

short term thinking

Good safetys are available every offseason. Good quarterbacks, esp young ones, are almsot never.

Value is completely different.

Within a year or 2 you can find a safety as good as Rhodes. Can you say the same thing for a QB and Cutler?

Depends on your assesment of Bradford and McCoy at this point. I'd like to see us make a play for one of them, assuming we are in draft position in top the 15. Please nobody mention Tebow.

[Aten]

short term thinking

More like long term joking.

[ECURB]

Depends on your assesment of Bradford and McCoy at this point. I'd like to see us make a play for one of them, assuming we are in draft position in top the 15. Please nobody mention Tebow.

Are you tlaking about drafting in the top 15 next season already?

[Jbro22]

No, I own a Rhodes jersey.

Selfish? I don't care.

[NFLs StepChild]

So is the #17 and Rhodes too much for you, then? Because that's probably a starting point in negotiations if you really want to land him.

It is too much. In another post I put Ellis, TJ or Leon on the block. But I also think the pricetag can only decline at this point. One thing Denver can not afford is to go further into the OTAs without a QB plan (assuming Cutler continues his demands and holdouts). If they want a QB in return, that has to happen immediately. If they want to draft a replacement, they can wait. But Cutler is damaging his own value with these antics and any GM is going to be concerned about his attitude. That combined with the accusations regarding his work ethic and lack of leadership ability and rumblings about lockerroom disliking him will only continue to put Denver in the hot seat. What they will try to do is force 2 teams into a bidding war for picks and hope to get a 1st rounder out of the deal imo. Jets hold 17, Chicago 18, TB holds 19, Detroit 20, Eagles 21, Vikes 22 - Are there any other players? Maybe 49ers or Browns if they are interested could blow us out of the water in terms of draft placement.

Another ? is why is this deal not done already? Probably because most teams think that the pricetag is far too high currently. When it's your ass on the line, you get real conservative about bringing in a guy with baggage for a big package of picks and players.

[ECURB]

No, I own a Rhodes jersey.

Selfish? I don't care.

My poor GF has a Vilma and a Pennington...

So far I have gotten burnt on S Moss, K Johnson, C Pennington... Martin is the only JETS jersey i have left thats not gone... My GF got me a custom "ECURB" jersey to solve the problem... unless I have an identity crisis... lol

[NFLs StepChild]

Are you tlaking about drafting in the top 15 next season already?

New Coach, new defensive system, new players, new QB, lost Coles...

Yup.

It's a rebuilding year. Even if we do get Cutler, it will be a rebuilding year. Sorry.

[ECURB]

New Coach, new defensive system, new players, new QB, lost Coles...

Yup.

It's a rebuilding year. Even if we do get Cutler, it will be a rebuilding year. Sorry.

There is not such thing as rebuilding in the current NFL...

Falcons & Dolphins are perfect examples... as are the Ravens...

Also it is not a "new system" it is a variation of a system that was already put in place, players as well.

[NFLs StepChild]

My poor GF has a Vilma and a Pennington...

So far I have gotten burnt on S Moss, K Johnson, C Pennington... Martin is the only JETS jersey i have left thats not gone... My GF got me a custom "ECURB" jersey to solve the problem... unless I have an identity crisis... lol

I bought a Revis last year. Prior to that I've been wearing the Wayne, Shade Tree or Mo.

Hard to buy jerseys anymore. These guys are all Mercs now.

[JustInFudge]

short term thinking

Good safetys are available every offseason. Good quarterbacks, esp young ones, are almsot never.

Value is completely different.

Within a year or 2 you can find a safety as good as Rhodes. Can you say the same thing for a QB and Cutler?

Can we find a hot headed Qb that has a sub .500 record that has a strong arm? I think so, but who knows.

My point is, that most of these teams made the playoffs because of their defense and their S had a HUGE impact. Other than the Colts and Cardinals....I dont think any of these teams made it to where that point because of their QB.

Dont get me wrong, by no means am I saying that you dont need a solid Qb to win. You need either a top notch D or a top notch Qb. I dont know that Cutler is that. He might be more of a liability than we can afford.

[NFLs StepChild]

There is not such thing as rebuilding in the current NFL...

Falcons & Dolphins are perfect examples... as are the Ravens...

Also it is not a "new system" it is a variation of a system that was already put in place, players as well.

Let's hope you are right.

And it is a new system. Call it a variation if you like, but the plays are new, verbiage is new, assignments are new, everything is new.

[afosomf]

Can we find a hot headed Qb that has a sub .500 record that has a strong arm? I think so, but who knows.

My point is, that most of these teams made the playoffs because of their defense and their S had a HUGE impact. Other than the Colts and Cardinals....I dont think any of these teams made it to where that point because of their QB.

Dont get me wrong, by no means am I saying that you dont need a solid Qb to win. You need either a top notch D or a top notch Qb. I dont know that Cutler is that. He might be more of a liability than we can afford.

falcons and bolts for sure

[NFLs StepChild]

Can we find a hot headed Qb that has a sub .500 record that has a strong arm? I think so, but who knows.

My point is, that most of these teams made the playoffs because of their defense and their S had a HUGE impact. Other than the Colts and Cardinals....I dont think any of these teams made it to where that point because of their QB.

Dont get me wrong, by no means am I saying that you dont need a solid Qb to win. You need either a top notch D or a top notch Qb. I dont know that Cutler is that. He might be more of a liability than we can afford.

We can afford the liability under center so long as we don't pay through the nose for it. He has higher upside than Rat or KC. So I am open to getting him. But it has to be low enough that we aren't stuck with him if/when he fails.

[ECURB]

Let's hope you are right.

And it is a new system. Call it a variation if you like, but the plays are new, verbiage is new, assignments are new, everything is new.

I know the plays and words are new... but he has the right players used to playing in a similar system... its not like he got a team full of 4-3 guys...

What more evidence do you need that the NFL is not a rebuilding league... Phins, Ravens & Falcons all playoff teams with new HC's and QB's...

[lancemehl]

New Coach, new defensive system, new players, new QB, lost Coles...

Yup.

It's a rebuilding year. Even if we do get Cutler, it will be a rebuilding year. Sorry.

If we get Cutler the only thing being rebuilt is the NY Jets Legacy!

[lancemehl]

Please read it again. The point was losing a 2nd and 3rd next year is a big deal. The backup NT was part of the equation, as is the other spots we need to address. NT is important because Woods and Robinson likely go somewhere there and then there is nothing relevant after that imo. That combined with the increasing # of teams moving tot he 3-4 forces teams to reach higher for those players. But even if we somehow pull a rabbit out of our ass and get a legitimate NT beyond the draft, where do we get our WR, DE, LG, TE from? It won't be through the draft, so we'll have to spend big in FA, after Cutlers new contract that is, and Ellis will have to be cut cause he's gonna make something like 11 or 13 mill next year and we'll be in worse shape by overpaying for guys like Antonio Bryant or Steve Breaston and further digging ourselves into a hole. When maybe we could get a WR this year at 17, or Tyson Jackson and go WR in rd 2 and actually be ahead of the game for once. The more picks we have to use the better.

17+Rhodes? No. I completely agree that we basically go from good to bad in our secondary by doing that. Elam, Leonard, Lito et al are average players and Rhodes is one of the better young safeties in the game. Is he replaceable? Sure. But why do that?

17+a player I am ok with. Leon or TJ I would move. RBs are easier to replace and TJ is 31 and has a very tradeable contract with another productive year left in him, and if Leon wants Sproles money he can take a walk as well. If we can get something from them and draft a new RB to replace them, all the better. Ellis and the 17 could be an option if we can draft a replacement for Ellis this year, cause he's gonna be an issue with his contract next year and Denver needs a 3-4 DE to help with their new defensive front, so let them get him and he can renegotiate with them.

DEVITO solves the Ellis problem.

[JustInFudge]

We can afford the liability under center so long as we don't pay through the nose for it. He has higher upside than Rat or KC. So I am open to getting him. But it has to be low enough that we aren't stuck with him if/when he fails.

True. For the purpose of this thread, I dont think its worth trading Kerry Rhodes and picks for Cutler.

[ECURB]

DEVITO solves the Ellis problem.

I never thought that I would cringe more than I do when reading a JR128 post...

Lance you have officially become the most cringe-worthy poster on JN... lol

[NFLs StepChild]

DEVITO solves the Ellis problem.

Went a little bit heavy on the water bong today, did we?

[lancemehl]

if our defense wolud fall apart if we didn't have kerry rhodes......well then it's not gonna be a very good defense then is it? no way in hell does kerry fu*king rhodes make or break this defense.

100% AGREED. Only Kris Jenkins Does, and that may not be the case with this "hybrid 3-4/4-3, just Pouha sux, but this defense in no way hinges on RHODES!!!

Revis gone would be a step back, no question, but Kerry Rhodes for an 8-10 year franchise QB. Please think rationally, guys.

[lancemehl]

I never thought that I would cringe more than I do when reading a JR128 post...

Lance you have officially become the most cringe-worthy poster on JN... lol

Thank You ECURB, I know it's crazy, but I've thought it over, and,yes I'd take Cutler and Devito over 32 year old Ellis. Wait, let me think......yeas, I still would. LOL

Thanks for the honors, though.

[ECURB]

DEVITO solves the Ellis problem.

100% AGREED. Only Kris Jenkins Does, and that may not be the case with this "hybrid 3-4/4-3, just Pouha sux, but this defense in no way hinges on RHODES!!!

Revis gone would be a step back, no question, but Kerry Rhodes for an 8-10 year franchise QB. Please think rationally, guys.

[NFLs StepChild]

I know the plays and words are new... but he has the right players used to playing in a similar system... its not like he got a team full of 4-3 guys...

What more evidence do you need that the NFL is not a rebuilding league... Phins, Ravens & Falcons all playoff teams with new HC's and QB's...

True. We are not changing schemes. I still expect a learning curve.

Sorry, you really are provide good examples, but I don't think you can bank on them.

Falcons - Ryan seems to me Matty Ice and a special player even as a rookie. I am extrememly impressed with him.

Ravens - got there on the Rex plan for us, but their defense was already established and their ground game was very very strong (granted injuries got them off track a bit) and Flacco progressed rapily from q1 to q4.

(That kind of impact from rookie QBs is unheard of. I seriously doubt we see that sort of thing again in the next 10 years. I think that the scenario with 2 rookie QBs making the playoffs with 2 rookie HC's will ultimately prove to be the exception and not the rule over time)

Miami - had a cakewalk schedule and the Tuna, with Chad going back to his old offense with Henning and Tuna we all know is an outstanding football guy. You knew they'd get much better. I'm not shocked by the turnaround by Miami, I am shocked that they were the best team in the division, but I expected them to be competetive last year. I predict they will fall back to earth next year as I see either a Pennignton injury or a QB change to make the move to Henne for the future.

We had the same cakewalk schedule this past year. So foreseeing a harder season for us, combined with all of the changes in store, I'm expecting a down year.

[NFLs StepChild]

yes I'd take Cutler and Devito over 32 year old Ellis.

I don't think that was the question though. I think almost everyone would be ok to ship Ellis out for Cutler.

[#27TheDominator]

Please read it again. The point was losing a 2nd and 3rd next year is a big deal. The backup NT was part of the equation, as is the other spots we need to address. NT is important because Woods and Robinson likely go somewhere there and then there is nothing relevant after that imo. That combined with the increasing # of teams moving tot he 3-4 forces teams to reach higher for those players. But even if we somehow pull a rabbit out of our ass and get a legitimate NT beyond the draft, where do we get our WR, DE, LG, TE from? It won't be through the draft, so we'll have to spend big in FA, after Cutlers new contract that is, and Ellis will have to be cut cause he's gonna make something like 11 or 13 mill next year and we'll be in worse shape by overpaying for guys like Antonio Bryant or Steve Breaston and further digging ourselves into a hole. When maybe we could get a WR this year at 17, or Tyson Jackson and go WR in rd 2 and actually be ahead of the game for once. The more picks we have to use the better.

A second and third next year obviously have decent value, but I wasn't aware they were part of this hypothetical. I thought we were discussing one player, one pick. You are concerned about what the Jets will have to spend for a WR, backup NT, G or DE and you aren't concerned about the near impossibility of finding a top flight QB? They follow your advice and there is a good chance they are sitting pretty like the '06 Bears, a top D with sexy Rexy at QB. No thanks.

17+Rhodes? No. I completely agree that we basically go from good to bad in our secondary by doing that. Elam, Leonard, Lito et al are average players and Rhodes is one of the better young safeties in the game. Is he replaceable? Sure. But why do that?

You do it because one of the better yound safeties in the game is meaningless compared to one of the better young QBs in the game. I think you are overrating Rhodes and underrating Cutler, but that's your opinion and that's fine. Somebody posted about the stellar play that playoff teams got at safety last year and I can tell you that Rhodes did not provide stellar play last year.

17+a player I am ok with. Leon or TJ I would move. RBs are easier to replace and TJ is 31 and has a very tradeable contract with another productive year left in him, and if Leon wants Sproles money he can take a walk as well. If we can get something from them and draft a new RB to replace them, all the better. Ellis and the 17 could be an option if we can draft a replacement for Ellis this year, cause he's gonna be an issue with his contract next year and Denver needs a 3-4 DE to help with their new defensive front, so let them get him and he can renegotiate with them.

Leon has one year left and IIRC TJ and Ellis have balloon payments. I can't see the Broncos looking to do us the favor. I would think that Denver is well aware that RBs are a dime a dozen. It wasn't too long ago they were picking guys up off the street for 1000 yard seasons. I'd like to get Cutler for a 7th, but I don't think it's going to happen.

I can appreciate where you are coming from, but I guess I don't value draft picks or Kerry Rhodes quite as highly as you.

[124]

I don't think that was the question though. I think almost everyone would be ok to ship Ellis out for Cutler.

Did someone actually say that we could land Jay Cutler for Shaun freaking Ellis? :rl:

[lancemehl]

I don't think that was the question though. I think almost everyone would be ok to ship Ellis out for Cutler.

that was the context, with some sarcasm sprinkled in. This board is awesome for Jets knowledge, not too good at sarcasm. I forget how black and white it is.

No Devito is not better than Ellis.......but i like what i see. And, oh, I also feel that acquiring Cutler is an absolute MUST! It is the most important move for this team in a long time.

[NFLs StepChild]

I can appreciate where you are coming from, but I guess I don't value draft picks or Kerry Rhodes quite as highly as you.

Bingo. I also think we value Cutler much differently too.