'Ted Ginn? Seriously?' Edition of Post of The Week

[The Crusher]

That's because they dropped a pick. If the Jets just didn't submit till say, 20, there's no way that player could have garnered #6 money. If they didn't submit that pick at all, they wouldn't have anyone to pay. Further, it's more about the point. The Jets would have been better off with no one, than with Vernon Gholston. In a league with a salary cap, that's the truth.

And, I don't care where guys are picked, or if they are a need, or even if they are hurt. Marquis Colston was a late 7th rounder. You think if the draft were done over, he'd still be? A hurt Jerod Mayo gets the same playing time as a healthy Vernon Gholston. Did Gholston fit a need? Did we need a guy who can't get on the field. Is that what we were hoping for? As for Mayo vs. Bart Scott and Leonhart vs. Kenny Philips, neither of those guys were on the roster at the time, neither was the coach who lured them here.

Any one of those guys makes the 2009 New York Jets a better team than they are with Vernon Gholston. And based on what we've seen, probably the 2010, 2011, and 2012. You never answered my question in an earlier thread. If Tannenbaum had to do it over again, would he draft Gholston. I say no chance.

Hahaha. He's also cheaper.

[bitonti]

What does blue chip player mean?

truly rare size speed ratio coupled with a top notch college production.

Vernon Gholston having a solid year in 2011 would be a nightmare for the Jets. He'd have 3 years of complete uselessness, and then the Jets would have to decide if they were willing to commit another 4-5 years and a ton of money to him in an extension.

James farrior did the same thing, they let him go and he got his ring. sometimes players don't mature on the schedule you want them to... it happens.

You still didn't answer... WOULD MIKE TANNENBAUM DRAFT VERNON GHOLSTON IF HE HAD THE CURRENT HINDSIGHT?

I can't speak for Tanny. I would tho. You listed like 20 players, none of which were really a better pick at 6.

[JohnnyHector]

Vernon Gholston having a solid year in 2011 would be a nightmare for the Jets. He'd have 3 years of complete uselessness, and then the Jets would have to decide if they were willing to commit another 4-5 years and a ton of money to him in an extension.

if he can be Bryan Thomas ... i'm happy.

In EY's scenario, bitonti would get his wish...

[ZachEY]

truly rare size speed ratio coupled with a top notch college production.

Many scouts raised doubts about his work ethic, his desire, and his production against quality opponents.

Our definitions of Blue Chip do not match.

James farrior did the same thing, they let him go and he got his ring. sometimes players don't mature on the schedule you want them to... it happens.

Yes, it does happen, but Farrior at this point in his career was lightyears ahead of Gholston. Hell, he started 15 games his rookie year, as a 22 year old (). Again, you cannot find a non-QB drafted in the top 10, who's started his career worse than Gholston and turned out to be a real player.

And even with that said, Farriors first 'Big Year' was 10 years into his career. There's no way you can draft a guy at 6 for the goal of what he's capable of 10 years down the road.

I can't speak for Tanny. I would tho. You listed like 20 players, none of which were really a better pick at 6.

I guess that's why your not a GM then, because to get 0 production, yes, 0, is a complete failure thus far. Can that change, yes, but right now, the pick is a complete failure. Earlier you talked about needs. We needed a passrusher, well that's not what we got. We may get that in 2016, but who says that will be a 'need' then. There is no doubt, this pick was a mistake.

[ZachEY]

In EY's scenario, bitonti would get his wish...

You don't intentionally draft Bryan Thomas at 6.

[bitonti]

Many scouts raised doubts about his work ethic, his desire, and his production against quality opponents.

when VG put up 225 37 times at the combine it displayed weight room work ethic. When VG got 2 sacks against Jake Long (the first 2 sacks he gave up in his college career, btw) that was production against quality opposition.

Yes, it does happen, but Farrior at this point in his career was lightyears ahead of Gholston. Hell, he started 15 games his rookie year, as a 22 year old (). Again, you cannot find a non-QB drafted in the top 10, who's started his career worse than Gholston and turned out to be a real player.

starting isn't an accomplishment when there's no one in front of you... Gholston has Pace and Thomas in front of him, both first round picks, both seasoned vets, and he's better than neither. That's not unexpected. Thomas was stuck behind Abe and Ellis in a similar situation.

And even with that said, Farriors first 'Big Year' was 10 years into his career. There's no way you can draft a guy at 6 for the goal of what he's capable of 10 years down the road.

maybe that's true but you don't draft a guy for instant impact either. the draft is for the future not the present. You don't draft a player and expect taht's gonna win you a super bowl. it could happen (as in the case of torry holt) but most times the draft is for the future, free agency is for now.

I guess that's why your not a GM then, because to get 0 production, yes, 0, is a complete failure thus far. Can that change, yes, but right now, the pick is a complete failure. Earlier you talked about needs. We needed a passrusher, well that's not what we got. We may get that in 2016, but who says that will be a 'need' then. There is no doubt, this pick was a mistake.

you still haven't listed a better pick that made more sense than Gholston. You listed alot of guys that either weren't worth the pick or got hurt.

[JohnnyHector]

You don't intentionally draft Bryan Thomas at 6.

I agree. I just found it humorous that you were describing Bryan Thomas's career path to a tee.

[ZachEY]

when VG put up 225 37 times at the combine it displayed weight room work ethic. When VG got 2 sacks against Jake Long (the first 2 sacks he gave up in his college career, btw) that was production against quality opposition.

First, you just admitted he was a workout warrior. If I wanted a Bench Presser, I'd call Christian Thibaudeau. Second, you point out Jake Long, and yes, and that got everyone excited. Where was he vs LSU? Where has he been in his 4 meetings with Jake Long since. It's beginning to look like beating Long was a fluke.

starting isn't an accomplishment when there's no one in front of you... Gholston has Pace and Thomas in front of him, both first round picks, both seasoned vets, and he's better than neither. That's not unexpected. Thomas was stuck behind Abe and Ellis in a similar situation.

He was drafted to be better than Bryan Thomas. It sucks that he's not. Further, he's not even getting in the rotation. The fact that Jamaal Westerman is taking reps from him is damning. Jamaal Westerman........ You want to say that he shouldn't start, fine, but how come he rarely gets any PT? The fact that Westerman is one year older does not wipe out the fact that Vernon was the 6 player of hundreds taken, and Westerman was not taken at all. And if you say that Westman hasn't been good, that just helps make the argument AGAINST Gholston.

maybe that's true but you don't draft a guy for instant impact either. the draft is for the future not the present. You don't draft a player and expect taht's gonna win you a super bowl. it could happen (as in the case of torry holt) but most times the draft is for the future, free agency is for now.

No, but you expect him to work his way in. To make a few plays here and there. You draft him to show promise. Right now, Vernon has tackled a RB from behind, almost gotten a sack twice, got one preseason sack, and hit David Carr really hard in preseason. You don't draft a guy at 6 for that in a year and a half.

you still haven't listed a better pick that made more sense than Gholston. You listed alot of guys that either weren't worth the pick or got hurt.

Vernon Gholston doesn't make sense either. Because he doesn't play. So, really, a guy that plays is greater than a guy that doesn't.

And in that year, even if we were bringing in Favre, Flacco would have been a much better pick. Draft him, let him sit one season (did anyone think Favre would be here longer?) and start Flacco this season. Much better plan. Much better.

And the 'got hurt' argument is weak. Football players get hurt, if a guy is not 'injury' prone, you can't factor this in, because you just don't know. I'd still take Mayo, who missed 3 games, and still has had a greater impact this season than Gholston. We wouldn't have had to spend a ton of Bart Scott either if this were the case. And hell, maybe Gholston would get hurt if he saw the field with any regularity. Hard to get hurt on the bench.

[bitonti]

the 225 reps doesn't show strength. 225 is actually a light weight for these guys. it shows stamina which you can only get by working out - alot.

you say he has bad work ethic and then you say he's a workout warrior - can't be both. a warrior lives in the gym.

gholston doesn't have the stats we want but he sees the field far more than you are giving him credit for... say he's not better than Thomas... well he's underrated too.

bottom line you are trying to make an absolute point about a player who is 23. it's too young to write him off, period, end of story. if he's 25 and still not producing, maybe that's time to worry. he should have just gotten out of college.

[ZachEY]

the 225 reps doesn't show strength. 225 is actually a light weight for these guys. it shows stamina which you can only get by working out - alot.

you say he has bad work ethic and then you say he's a workout warrior - can't be both. a warrior lives in the gym.

gholston doesn't have the stats we want but he sees the field far more than you are giving him credit for... say he's not better than Thomas... well he's underrated too.

bottom line you are trying to make an absolute point about a player who is 23. it's too young to write him off, period, end of story. if he's 25 and still not producing, maybe that's time to worry. he should have just gotten out of college.

I'm saying what I read on him before the draft. No one denied he was strong. They worried about how it translated to the NFL. Thus far, it hasn't. This is the classic case of overdrafting an athlete, not a football player.

He doesn't have the stats is an understatement, he doesn't even have tackles. He's a complete non factor.

And, no, I'm not trying to make an absolute. I've admitted that things could change, but right now, the pick was a complete failure, because he's had 0 impact. Now, you'll try to twist that into me saying, 'he's not an impact player' and that's not fair to expect of him yet. But that's also not what I'm saying, because players we don't define as 'impact players', can still make an impact from time to time. Right now, our #6 overall pick, 2 years ago, has made less of an impact in that time than Jamaal Westerman. That's an immutable fact.

You put entirely too much stock in age. Each year, guys his age have more of an impact than he does. I pointed out Aaron Curry this year, you dismissed it. If these things were such a factor, than 1) he should not have come out, and 2) he should not have been drafted this early. You don't waste a top 10 pick on a 5 year project. It's financially irresponsible, and chances are, he wont be around for it to pay off.

Today, the drafting of Vernon Gholston is a complete and utter failure. We've already demonstrated that other players his age can make a big impact, we've already demonstrated that other players who started off slow, have at least shown some promise on the field early, we've demonstrated that he's shown no more value to the team than an UDFA, who has a sack and a fumble recovery in significantly less time. And most damning, we've yet to find a single example of an NFL player who's started his career as poorly as Gholston did, and turned out to be a good player. I wish it weren't true, but right now, the Jets have gotten exactly the return on Gholston that CTM's graph points out, joke or not. Again, maybe that will change, but he's shown us nothing on the football field to believe it will.

23 NFL games. 0 sacks. 0 impact plays. 6.8 million dollars.

[bitonti]

EY why do you refuse to include a TD saving tackle against TEN as an impact play? Rex gave him a game ball. He ran down a 4.27 guy from behind.

everyone, Jets included, knew he would be a project. If he wasn't a project, he goes 1 overall maybe. The team drafted a project and the fans don't want to see it finished. I don't get it.

"this renovation of my brooklyn brownstone is taking too long! let's walk away and move to south carolina where the houses are cheap and already built!"

cutting or giving up on VG is buying high, selling low. not a smart move by any angle.

as a side note I don't understand why money is such a concern. it's not like cash will get the team more wins. It's not like cheaper players would have Gholston's potential. he's getting paid for what he could be... not what he is. That's the way the draft works.

[ZachEY]

EY why do you refuse to include a TD saving tackle against TEN as an impact play? Rex gave him a game ball. He ran down a 4.27 guy from behind.

everyone, Jets included, knew he would be a project. If he wasn't a project, he goes 1 overall maybe. The team drafted a project and the fans don't want to see it finished. I don't get it.

"this renovation of my brooklyn brownstone is taking too long! let's walk away and move to south carolina where the houses are cheap and already built!"

cutting or giving up on VG is buying high, selling low. not a smart move by any angle.

as a side note I don't understand why money is such a concern. it's not like cash will get the team more wins. It's not like cheaper players would have Gholston's potential. he's getting paid for what he could be... not what he is. That's the way the draft works.

Rex gave him a gameball for his confidence. No other reason... thejetsblog analyized every gholston play from this game and had this to say:

"- Gholston opened this series as a Strongside DE. The first play is where he made a touchdown saving tackle downfield after a missed tackle by Kerry Rhodes. While many people have pointed to this as one of his more positive moments of the game, it was actually one of his worst plays, as he lost outside contain and Johnson broke for a big gain. In Gholston’s defense, he was double teamed by the RT and the TE and did have Jim Leonhard behind him, but Leonhard got nailed by a block too. It was good hustle to catch Johnson from behind."

So, yes, he made a nice hustle, but it was also him who allowed the hole to open for Johnson in the first place.

Because, as fans have seen projects before. And projects show glimmers of hope on the field. Gholston has not. When your signature play is making up for your own screw up, you don't get a lot of love from the fans.

I don't think we should cut him. I'm just pointing out that the pick was a complete failure, and your analogy sucks bigtime. If you renovate your home, you know it will get there, even if it takes longer than expected, because the contractors you hire are not there based on what they did in some contractor combine, they're there because they have the skill to do it. Gholston has not proven he has the skill to 'finish the brownstone'.

A better analogy would be if you were to invest in the construction of an apartment complex. Your initial projections say that the whole thing will cost you 35 million which you can make back in 20 years. You're 10 million in when the market drops out, meaning that rent must drop, and it will take you 30 years to recoup your 35 million dollar investment. Do you abandon the project, saving yourself 25 million and attempt to recover the 10 through other investments, or do you spend the 25 million chasing the other 10? Not such an easy call.

Money is a concern because the money paid to him is wasted, it could be reinvested in other players who might get us closer. Of course the actual dollars are meaningless, but what they can add to the team are not.

[The Crusher]

EY why do you refuse to include a TD saving tackle against TEN as an impact play? Rex gave him a game ball. He ran down a 4.27 guy from behind.

everyone, Jets included, knew he would be a project. If he wasn't a project, he goes 1 overall maybe. The team drafted a project and the fans don't want to see it finished. I don't get it.

"this renovation of my brooklyn brownstone is taking too long! let's walk away and move to south carolina where the houses are cheap and already built!"

cutting or giving up on VG is buying high, selling low. not a smart move by any angle.

as a side note I don't understand why money is such a concern. it's not like cash will get the team more wins. It's not like cheaper players would have Gholston's potential. he's getting paid for what he could be... not what he is. That's the way the draft works.

Bit I think its awesome how you try and be so optimistic about players and its kinda heartwarming. But you seem like the guy who cheers and hoots and hollars when the little retard kid finally hits a foul ball in baseball in the 9th inning. Jumping up to high five the father who already hung him self under the bleachers during the second inning.

[bitonti]

that jetsblog analysis was inaccurate.

he stood up to a double team and did not have edge responsibilities... revis and leonard got tied up and fell down... if an RB goes to the 7 or 9 it's the LB, CB or S, not the double teamed DE who has outside responsibility.

I don't think we should cut him. I'm just pointing out that the pick was a complete failure

the word "complete" irks me. It means done. a 23 year old is not done getting better.

[bitonti]

Bit I think its awesome how you try and be so optimistic about players and its kinda heartwarming. But you seem like the guy who cheers and hoots and hollars when the little retard kid finally hits a foul ball in baseball in the 9th inning. Jumping up to high five the father who already hung him self under the bleachers during the second inning.

i'd rather be the cheerer than the suicide guy

[ZachEY]

that jetsblog analysis was inaccurate.

he stood up to a double team and did not have edge responsibilities... revis and leonard got tied up and fell down... if an RB goes to the 7 or 9 it's the LB, CB or S, not the double teamed DE who has outside responsibility.

the word "complete" irks me. It means done. a 23 year old is not done getting better.

Fine.

Strike the word complete. Right now, the Gholston pick is a failure. We expected him to get better with experience. However in year 2, he has fallen far below expectations for where he'd be.

[Larz]

I liked the pennington debates better

who will be the jets fans whipping boy when VG is gone ?

[bitonti]

this was the point of the "graph" post... granted I butchered what I was trying to say but i'll try again

If we were grading this player maybe he's a C or C-, no way is he an F. He's put in too much work and still has to much upside to be an F.

the other thing that irks me about the VG sitaution: The Jets defense is by far the strongest third of the team. this is not a Drob situation where the defense stinks and Gholston is part of the problem.

the Jets defense is actually excellent and he's got guys in front of him that are legitimately better that he is. when Pace was out they went 3-1 and the D played awesome it at least 3 if not all 4 of those games. im ok with that right now.

People say "23 games 0 sacks" ok so how many games has he started? 4? how was the defense in those 4 games?

ok so Gholston isn't an all pro by year 2, that's true but... he's not demitrius underwood either. he's getting on the field and helping out on an excellent defense.

***

FWIW, going back to pre-draft crap is wrong on both sides of the argument, I do it too and it's wrong.

for every Jake Long clip, there were people who totally wrote off Gholston because he wasn't a typical ra-ra football player from the beginning. His mindset is different than most football players, and that turned off certain scouts and fans.

but these people also wrote off Vernon Davis... Cedric Benson... and Ted Ginn Jr... "seriously"

if you are an elite world class athlete you don't have to be a typical ra-ra football mindset to succeed... it just might take a little while for these guys to hit their prime.

the only reason this thread is still going is cause we have a bye week... no game to wash the taste out this weekend... but because we have that week I want everyone to consider the career of Ted Ginn Jr. Reflect upon it.

these 2 dolphins losses were both kicks in the teeth for the 2009 Jets team. inflection points, where had things gone differently, they'd be considered legit contenders.

Ted Ginn Jr. the bust that owns the Jets.

If Gholston had Ted Ginn's career where he was inconsistent but and absolutely blew up against a particular AFC opponent for no apparent reason that would be ok with me.

Since 2003 the Drob we've all seen so many draft picks turn into nothing. watching the draft every year, there are tons of guys put through the grinder. My opinion: Gholston isn't nothing... he's not a failure... not yet. He's actually a very interesting player to watch. So stay tuned.