Chris Johnson continues holdout

[jason423]

I don't have the same animosity when a RB holds out. Guy racked up 2500 friggin' yards in a single season. As likely as not, he's going to get a severe injury or the carries are simply going to take their toll on him before he's able to cash out on a deal worth tens of millions of dollars.

Rookie RB contracts should have had their own special category, like a max of 3 years and can't be franchise or RFA tagged. Their careers are so friggin' short. Even if they're longer they are hardly ever elite playmakers for a long time.

Different from Revis IMO in that way. No one's going to keep Chris Johnson in a well-paying contract into his 30s. Without a new deal he's not going to be a UFA until he's 28 and then he'll get franchised if he's still anywhere near what he is or has been.

+1. The other way its different than Revis as well is the fact that CJ is actually on a more or less slotted deal. Revis in 2007 got a way above slotted deal. Had he just been average I think he would have been paid around what the 10th or 11th drafted player makes. If he was great (as he was) he would get a number 5 or so deal in terms of guaranteed money. If Revis pulls this holdout nonsense again in a few years I dont think the Jets will cave and then force him to honor those dummy $3 million seasons or retire.

[Jet27]

If the Titans do pay him, I say we should trade for him. I would love to see CJ in the backfield....Come on Tanny, do it!

[Jet27]

I meant don't pay him....

[SMC]

I don't begrudge Johnson from wanting big money, but the Titans are insane if they give him what he wants. They'll never get the return in investment that such a deal entails.

[Bleedin Green]

I don't begrudge Johnson from wanting big money, but the Titans are insane if they give him what he wants. They'll never get the return in investment that such a deal entails.

This entire concept of top players at other positions getting "QB money" is absolutely absurd. That goes for the deal Fitz got and the one CJ is looking for. There's a reason QB's get more money then every other position on the field, because they are the ones who deserve it. There is no single position in football (or in sports for that matter) that is anywhere close to EVER having the kind of impact on a team the way QB does. A good enough QB can literally change the entire complexion and fortunes of a team, and no matter how good of a player is there, no other position can do that. Without Peyton Manning and Tom Brady, the Colts and Pats are nothing. Sure they are some of the best to ever play their position, but that same thing at other positions will never change a teams fortunes the same way.

Look at LT, the guy is a first ballot HOF talent who was on one pathetic losing team after another until Drew Brees finally got his sh*t together. Larry Fitzgerald has been a great WR throughout his entire career, and his team has always completely sucked outside of Warner's two years as starter. The list of similar scenarios goes on and on. Notice a pattern? Having these kind of guys are no doubt a great benefit, but without a QB they still aren't going to be able to do enough to make their team into a winner. That doesn't mean these guys don't deserve their share, but these guys need to get paid for what they can bring to the table in terms of impact on their team, and the fact is a very good QB will mean more to a team than an elite player at any other position ever will.

[hoping4ASuperBowl]

This entire concept of top players at other positions getting "QB money" is absolutely absurd. That goes for the deal Fitz got and the one CJ is looking for. There's a reason QB's get more money then every other position on the field, because they are the ones who deserve it. There is no single position in football (or in sports for that matter) that is anywhere close to EVER having the kind of impact on a team the way QB does. A good enough QB can literally change the entire complexion and fortunes of a team, and no matter how good of a player is there, no other position can do that. Without Peyton Manning and Tom Brady, the Colts and Pats are nothing. Sure they are some of the best to ever play their position, but that same thing at other positions will never change a teams fortunes the same way.

Look at LT, the guy is a first ballot HOF talent who was on one pathetic losing team after another until Drew Brees finally got his sh*t together. Larry Fitzgerald has been a great WR throughout his entire career, and his team has always completely sucked outside of Warner's two years as starter. The list of similar scenarios goes on and on. Notice a pattern? Having these kind of guys are no doubt a great benefit, but without a QB they still aren't going to be able to do enough to make their team into a winner. That doesn't mean these guys don't deserve their share, but these guys need to get paid for what they can bring to the table in terms of impact on their team, and the fact is a very good QB will mean more to a team than an elite player at any other position ever will.

+1. Great post. I think CJ should get paid like a top RB, not more than the top QB's though if that's what he's asking for. I think the situation will get worse now that Fitz got his deal and you look at how outrageous those #'s seam. Fitz just set a new standard for non QB deals there.

[slats]

+1. Great post. I think CJ should get paid like a top RB, not more than the top QB's though if that's what he's asking for. I think the situation will get worse now that Fitz got his deal and you look at how outrageous those #'s seam. Fitz just set a new standard for non QB deals there.

WR's also traditionally make more than RB's. Before Fitz' deal, the franchise number for WR's was $11.3M, and the RB number was $9.5M.

Jason suggested a $10.3M as a number for CJ (nice round figure - lol!), and that is actually probably just about exactly right for him.

At a certain point, Johnson has to accept that a very good deal is on the table - and take it. More than any other position, a RB can't afford a year off.

[serphnx]

The Titans should have just paid him. Now the price is going to be higher because of DAW and Fitz, as it probably should be. The Titans and Bengals will always be losers. Anybody remember how the Titans handled McNair? The guy gets you to an SB and plays through injuries for you, and then you turn around and treat him like he slept with your wife.

What a joke of a franchise. I doubt they'll ever win more than 5 games a season again until that management and philosophy changes. And even then I don't know if it will help. It's like those businesses that screw over customers so bad that they have to put "under new management" signs to try and get people back. Usually it won't work and they just go out of business anyway, even though it might not be the fault of the sucker that bought it.

[Jetsfan80]

Double post.

[Jetsfan80]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/24/chris-johnson-holdout-titans-talks_n_935555.html

Chris Johnson Holdout Continues: Running Back, Titans Talks End With No Deal

On a football field, Chris Johnson is one of the fastest players around. At the negotiating table, he moves more cautiously. In both places, he is hard to wrap up.

Johnson met with Titans officials on Wednesday in hopes of hammering out a new contract and ending his holdout, but it looks like the stalemate is going to last a little longer as the talks between him and the Tennessee Titans ended with no new pact in sight.

Titans general manager Mike Reinfeldt issued a statement shortly after the meeting ended:

"It was important for us to have a face-to-face meeting so that everyone could have a voice and understand the perspective of the other side. I’m not sure there was any progress made, but I do think it was beneficial to meet. We were able to discuss several different elements of a potential contract, but there was no agreement on those topics. I do expect to have another conversation with Joel in the next day or so to discuss things further."

Earlier this month, Reindfelt revealed that the team was prepared to make Johnson the highest-paid running back in NFL history. However, Johnson has designs on being among the highest paid playmakers at any position and not just atop his own. To further complicate matters, the Titans wanted him to show up at training camp before any deal was finalized.

The Titans' request comes as no surprise, considering they brought in a brand new quarterback after the lockout ended. With Matt Hasselbeck now under center and a few other new additions to the offense, it might take a little more time than usual for the offensive unit to hit its stride.

Although player holdouts are becoming an August tradition as dependable as back-to-school sales, it is possible that the fact that the NFL was in a lockout for nearly five months played a role in the delay in finalizing a deal between two sides that seem committed to staying together.

[Smashmouth]

Was it true what I heard this morning that Johnson might be requesting a trade ? Not to say we would persue that just asking the question

[Jetsfan80]

Was it true what I heard this morning that Johnson might be requesting a trade ? Not to say we would persue that just asking the question

TRADE FOR THIS BEAST.

But seriously, under no circumstances do I see the Titans trading him away. They wouldn't get anywhere close to the value he provides due to his contract demands.

[Smashmouth]

TRADE FOR THIS BEAST.

But seriously, under no circumstances do I see the Titans trading him away. They wouldn't get anywhere close to the value he provides due to his contract demands.

Probably have to give up a first and second then also have to deal with signing him as well. Of course I think the Titans would have to give teams interested the chance to neg a contract if they were going to get serious about a trade. They should have taken care of this last year since they should have known some big contracts whould have made signing him even more difficult just like The Fitz deal for instance. Now CJ wants 40 - 50 mil guaranteed and thats pretty steep for a RB who has a much bigger risk of injury than a WR.

[Sperm Edwards]

TRADE FOR THIS BEAST.

But seriously, under no circumstances do I see the Titans trading him away. They wouldn't get anywhere close to the value he provides due to his contract demands.

No RB is worth upwards of $50M guaranteed. Great RB's on bad teams are still usually bad teams. Great QB's on bad teams can still get you to the playoffs. Top QB's, and only top QB's, should get top-5 salaries. That kind of money could only be justified for a RB in hindsight if he is great for 4-5 more years without injury. Pretty tall order for a position like that.

I like the route the Jets have gone down the past 4-5 years. Try to get that magical QB. But if you try and miss, at least you'll have a damn solid OL to fall back upon that makes both the passing game and ground game better.

[serphnx]

The Titans are arguing he is worth no more than about a 5th round pick in terms of salary. So I don't see how they can then turn around and claim he's worth a 1st round pick. If they think he's worth a king's ransom in a trade they need to just pay him.

Their argument isn't that he doesn't have value, it's just they don't feel that they have to actually pay him. They're of the belief that since they drafted him, they are entitled to his services at his original draft contract, and also they maintain they are also free to cut players at any moment as well.

The value argument is a poor smokescreen. If you think somebody has no value you cut or trade them for whatever you can get. They say a QB has way more value, and some say WRs have more value. In that case, he can't be worth a 2nd rounder, like Kolb was, and probably not a 4th like Randy Moss was. Maybe he is worth a 5th, like Holmes was. How can he possibly have more value in a trade than what you are willing to pay him as a player? That's just logically incoherent to me. It is a complete dissonance.

[Bleedin Green]

The Titans are arguing he is worth no more than about a 5th round pick in terms of salary. So I don't see how they can then turn around and claim he's worth a 1st round pick. If they think he's worth a king's ransom in a trade they need to just pay him.

Their argument isn't that he doesn't have value, it's just they don't feel that they have to actually pay him. They're of the belief that since they drafted him, they are entitled to his services at his original draft contract, and also they maintain they are also free to cut players at any moment as well.

The value argument is a poor smokescreen. If you think somebody has no value you cut or trade them for whatever you can get. They say a QB has way more value, and some say WRs have more value. In that case, he can't be worth a 2nd rounder, like Kolb was, and probably not a 4th like Randy Moss was. Maybe he is worth a 5th, like Holmes was. How can he possibly have more value in a trade than what you are willing to pay him as a player? That's just logically incoherent to me. It is a complete dissonance.

I'm not sure I agree with this at all. There's a difference between thinking a player has little to no worth, and not thinking a RB, ANY RB, is worthy of receiving a contract equivalent to that of a Top 5 QB. By all accounts the Titans are willing to give him a new deal, but just not the deal he's looking for, as his demands are beyond absurd. The only reason they shouldn't get a top bounty for him in a trade isn't because of how they value him, but rather even if there's a team out there willing to give in to CJ 's ridiculous demands (which I'm not sure there is), at that price they're probably not going to want to add on a heavy draft pick bounty on top of that.

[serphnx]

I'm not sure I agree with this at all. There's a difference between thinking a player has little to no worth, and not thinking a RB, ANY RB, is worthy of receiving a contract equivalent to that of a Top 5 QB. By all accounts the Titans are willing to give him a new deal, but just not the deal he's looking for, as his demands are beyond absurd. The only reason they shouldn't get a top bounty for him in a trade isn't because of how they value him, but rather even if there's a team out there willing to give in to CJ 's ridiculous demands (which I'm not sure there is), at that price they're probably not going to want to add on a heavy draft pick bounty on top of that.

He wanted less than DAW got, they never even offered him anything. Now after DAW, Fitz, and the Titans long posturing and bullsh*t games, he understandably has returned fire.

The Titans are sh*t at negotiating. I've negotiated a ton of deals, I don't go into negotiations looking to belittle and annoy the other side as much as possible. I think they have a bunch of clowns running the show ever there, and I honestly think they are talking to the Bengals for advice.

[Bleedin Green]

He wanted less than DAW got, they never even offered him anything. Now after DAW, Fitz, and the Titans long posturing and bullsh*t games, he understandably has returned fire.

The Titans are sh*t at negotiating. I've negotiated a ton of deals, I don't go into negotiations looking to belittle and annoy the other side as much as possible. I think they have a bunch of clowns running the show ever there, and I honestly think they are talking to the Bengals for advice.

Haha, fair enough. I won't disagree with that. The Titans only have themselves to blame for not taking care of this last year and they've definitely been a complete mess in terms of how they've handled their team the past few years. That said, I still don't necesarily think that's a reflection on the value of CJ and regardless of their idiocy in the past, you do have to consider CJ's absolutely abusrd demands when considering how the Titans really value him and therefore how much or little they'd be looking for in a trade for him. Again, I think more than their value for him is that it's going to be hard enough to find any team in the league willing to give CJ what he wants, nevermind one willing to give him what he wants and them what they want, so I just don't see a trade being possible unless they decide they're better off getting something, anything, for him rather than letting him sit out the whole year.

[serphnx]

Haha, fair enough. I won't disagree with that. The Titans only have themselves to blame for not taking care of this last year and they've definitely been a complete mess in terms of how they've handled their team the past few years. That said, I still don't necesarily think that's a reflection on the value of CJ and regardless of their idiocy in the past, you do have to consider CJ's absolutely abusrd demands when considering how the Titans really value him and therefore how much or little they'd be looking for in a trade for him. Again, I think more than their value for him is that it's going to be hard enough to find any team in the league willing to give CJ what he wants, nevermind one willing to give him what he wants and them what they want, so I just don't see a trade being possible unless they decide they're better off getting something, anything, for him rather than letting him sit out the whole year.

I think the NFL needs to stick in an arbitration process. Rookie contracts should only be 3 years long, and then after that there is arbitration for the 4th year at the option of the player and team, then 5th year functions the same as a franchise tag, in that you pay the average of the top 5 in that position but you won't lose the tag. The franchise tag itself should only be useable for 1 year on a player, although you can use it on another player. Since you already get the 5th year of the rookie contract, that gives you 6 years. If you can't figure out a contract within 6 years to keep someone long term, then you have no more rights to that player and you shouldn't have them either.

That's the type of system I think they should have looked to. It would have balanced FA, drafting, rookies and vets with both team concerns and player concerns. The actual system they put in place is going to be a colossal mess, I think within 2-3 years there will be another stoppage. This time a strike.

[jason423]

I dont see how you can argue with the stance of the Titans. These were all points negotiated by the players union and they dont have the strength to push the owners to do what you are suggesting. Johnson also did not sign the best of deals as a rookie. Thats not to say that he would be happy with what he was making but most players negotiate balloon payments of sorts at the end of the deal and CJ really didnt. It is extremely rare for a rookie to get a new contract before their final season. Johnson looked for one after his second year and he is looking again after his third.

Johnsons problem is that the market for him is limited and he knows it. Though the FItzgerald contract is absurd (and they have taken the Cardinals to cleaners with him) wide receivers make more money than running backs. 32 teams want a high priced wide receiver. Very few want a high priced running back. The Titans have supposedly said they will make Johnson the highest paid RB in the NFL. What more can they give him? Other than the Raiders and maybe the Redskins what team in the NFL is going to pay a guy that is never going to be that far superior to anyone at the position again 15 million a year? Its bad cap management to do that. Almost every team that has signed a runner to a big deal has regretted it.

Though I doubt they would ever get to the end of the Fitzgerald deal before another renegotiation, there are clauses there to protect the Cardinals from a declining player. He can lose up to 16 million off the back end based on performance. Would Johnson ever agree to that? Probably not because the position declines so rapidly that its impossible to meet certain performance standards. But if the Fitzgerald deal becomes his new negotiating point he is going to have to accept performance based salaries and non fully guaranteed money as well.