Jetscode1 Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Since Plan A free agency has been in place for less than 20 years and player movement prior to that was restricted to trades and guys who were cut, we're talking about a very limited sample space. Even so, there are more examples of this scenario than a new OC turning chicken sh*t into chicken salad: Brad Johnson won a SB in Tampa in his 2nd year there at the age of 35. Plunkett won two SB's with the Raiders at the ages of 34 and 37. Both of those examples could also make the case for Sanchez going somewhere else and turning it around...new location + new coaching = greater glory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 terrible footwork ? LOL ...... if your talking about stepping up into the pocket thats a mental decision that has nothing to do with good or bad footwork and footwork has a lot to do with escapability. The way he moves in the pocket is horrific. I don't care if you want to call it mental, physical, or metaphysical, it all falls under the category of suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashmouth Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Both of those examples could also make the case for Sanchez going somewhere else and turning it around...new location + new coaching = greater glory. I could see Sanchez pulling a Drew Brees in the right situation . Anything would beat this offensive coaching staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Plunkett was with the Raiders for 4 or 5 years that would make Manning 40 + Brad Johnson is probably the best example but thats still year 2 making maning 38 ...its a tough call Try again. Plunkett got to Oakland in '79, didn't start a game, and threw a whopping 15 passes that year. He won the Super Bowl (and was the game's MVP) the following season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Both of those examples could also make the case for Sanchez going somewhere else and turning it around...new location + new coaching = greater glory. Aside from the whole addition by subtraction angle, how exactly does that help the Jets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashmouth Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Try again. Plunkett got to Oakland in '79, didn't start a game, and threw a whopping 15 passes that year. He won the Super Bowl (and was the game's MVP) the following season. He was on the raiders for 3 years the thrid was the SB year. 78 79 80 ......2 years on the bench in an offense is not coming in and starting first year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 The age is a factor plus the move to a new city but you also have to include the return from injury issues...all complicate the equation...we've seen Brady, Marino, Montana a tad sluggish coming back from injury and we've seen Warner, Montana, Bledsoe (I'll leave Favre off the list) move to new teams with a modicum of success. warner took a crappy team to a SB, Bledsoe (or warner) were never in Manning's league, and Montana took the chiefs to a Championship game in his first season there, and playoffs the next. I'd agree with you if we were the jaguars or some crap team, the reality is that we've been to the back to back afc championships for every reason not named consuela. WE are good QB play away from being an elite team, that's why it makes sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 He was on the raiders for 3 years the thrid was the SB year. 78 79 80 ......2 years on the bench in an offense is not coming in and starting first year You're splitting hairs with this argument, as we're not talking about the likes of Brad Johnson or Jim Plunkett here... we're talking about one of the best to ever play the position. Sorry, but I'd rather swing for the fences with an aged HOF QB than stay the course with a known weakness. This is trading in CPF for Favre all over again, but the potential upshot is even greater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashmouth Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Whats funny is people will point to the favre debacle and say we were 8-3 and would have contended for a SB but the guy was old and he got hit a lot and got hurt do injuries not come with age ? It certainly played a part. If the Jets get Manning they will have to get rid of Shotty and change the entire offense IMO, and that almost never beats a playoff caliber defense like the Steelers or Ravens you cant just plug a guy in and expect SB's or even close for at least a few years and the guy is just too old. Ill keep the 25 year old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Whats funny is people will point to the favre debacle and say we were 8-3 and would have contended for a SB but the guy was old and he got hit a lot and got hurt do injuries not come with age ? It certainly played a part. If the Jets get Manning they will have to get rid of Shotty and change the entire offense IMO, and that almost never beats a playoff caliber defense like the Steelers or Ravens you cant just plug a guy in and expect SB's or even close for at least a few years and the guy is just too old. Ill keep the 25 year old. I don't care if we went 0-16.. it got rid of two proven losers in Mangini and CPF.. If not for favre, no Rex, no Sanchez, no playoffs the last 2 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetscode1 Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Since Plan A free agency has been in place for less than 20 years and player movement prior to that was restricted to trades and guys who were cut, we're talking about a very limited sample space. Even so, there are more examples of this scenario than a new OC turning chicken sh*t into chicken salad: Brad Johnson won a SB in Tampa in his 2nd year there at the age of 35. Plunkett won two SB's with the Raiders at the ages of 34 and 37. Aside from the whole addition by subtraction angle, how exactly does that help the Jets? Your original quote included a point about the dubiousness of coaching changing the fortunes of the player...just saying it works both ways... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Whats funny is people will point to the favre debacle and say we were 8-3 and would have contended for a SB but the guy was old and he got hit a lot and got hurt do injuries not come with age ? It certainly played a part. If the Jets get Manning they will have to get rid of Shotty and change the entire offense IMO, and that almost never beats a playoff caliber defense like the Steelers or Ravens you cant just plug a guy in and expect SB's or even close for at least a few years and the guy is just too old. Ill keep the 25 year old. Farve was a stupid INT away from the SB the following year in Minny. And who cares if they have to change the offense, Moore is here and its Peyton F'ing Manning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashmouth Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 You're splitting hairs with this argument, as we're not talking about the likes of Brad Johnson or Jim Plunkett here... we're talking about one of the best to ever play the position. Sorry, but I'd rather swing for the fences with an aged HOF QB than stay the course with a known weakness. This is trading in CPF for Favre all over again, but the potential upshot is even greater. Peyton Manning is no doubt a great QB but if he has one glaring weakness its his lack of clutchness in the playoffs. Something that IMO puts him down the list a bit when talking all time greats . Take a guy like Terry Bradshaw who had horrible regular season stats but just became a monster in the playoffs and won 4 SB even in years vs the cowboys when his defense sh*t the bed and he had to carry the team I dont see this from Manning. When His receivers were pressed vs the Pats in the playoffs he played just like Sanchez took him years to get past that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashmouth Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 I don't care if we went 0-16.. it got rid of two proven losers in Mangini and CPF.. If not for favre, no Rex, no Sanchez, no playoffs the last 2 years Yeah you can look at it that way...we backed into our current situation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashmouth Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Farve was a stupid INT away from the SB the following year in Minny. And who cares if they have to change the offense, Moore is here and its Peyton F'ing Manning. Favre was a stupid INT away from a lot of SB's on some good GB teams. He was the King of Stupid ints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Your original quote included a point about the dubiousness of coaching changing the fortunes of the player...just saying it works both ways... But the situations we're talking about are not a single coach (OC) changing a player... you're talking about a guy going to a completely new team - personnel, coaching staff, etc. I was referring to the notion that replacing Schottenheimer would have some magical effect on Sanchez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Peyton Manning is no doubt a great QB but if he has one glaring weakness its his lack of clutchness in the playoffs. Something that IMO puts him down the list a bit when talking all time greats . Take a guy like Terry Bradshaw who had horrible regular season stats but just became a monster in the playoffs and won 4 SB even in years vs the cowboys when his defense sh*t the bed and he had to carry the team I dont see this from Manning. When His receivers were pressed vs the Pats in the playoffs he played just like Sanchez took him years to get past that. Yeah, that guy sucks. His teams were just stacked. I mean, look at the way they are playing now without him. They are right there in the thick of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Farve was a stupid INT away from the SB the following year in Minny. And who cares if they have to change the offense, Moore is here and its Peyton F'ing Manning. Which of course is true, unless you don't recognize a difference in talent level between Peyton Manning and Mark Sanchez but for their surrounding cast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Peyton Manning is no doubt a great QB but if he has one glaring weakness its his lack of clutchness in the playoffs. Something that IMO puts him down the list a bit when talking all time greats . Take a guy like Terry Bradshaw who had horrible regular season stats but just became a monster in the playoffs and won 4 SB even in years vs the cowboys when his defense sh*t the bed and he had to carry the team I dont see this from Manning. When His receivers were pressed vs the Pats in the playoffs he played just like Sanchez took him years to get past that. Should I follow your tact and come up with a laundry list of excuses blaming everyone but Manning for the Colts playoff failures? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Should I follow your tact and come up with a laundry list of excuses blaming everyone but Manning for the Colts playoff failures? Too funny. As I said in the other thread. When we lose, it's everyone elses fault. When other teams lose, it's their QB's fault. Sometimes I wonder what it would be like to be dumb. Life would be so simple without having to think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Which of course is true, unless you don't recognize a difference in talent level between Peyton Manning and Mark Sanchez but for their surrounding cast. The Colts are stacked!!! Look at them now - look at all that talent - look at them perform without Manning. Its like they never skipped a beat. Surround mediocre QB's with all world talent and they too can look like a HOF QB. Manning was the beneficiary not the other way around. This year proves it more than any other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Too funny. As I said in the other thread. When we lose, it's everyone elses fault. When other teams lose, it's their QB's fault. Sounds like the foundation of a good thesis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetscode1 Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 warner took a crappy team to a SB, Bledsoe (or warner) were never in Manning's league, and Montana took the chiefs to a Championship game in his first season there, and playoffs the next. I'd agree with you if we were the jaguars or some crap team, the reality is that we've been to the back to back afc championships for every reason not named consuela. WE are good QB play away from being an elite team, that's why it makes sense Obviously I knew that since I posted that...Warner in my mind doesn't rate a similar comparison because the Cards were not banking on him taking them anywhere...he looked like "chicken sh*t" with the Giants and the Cards were just gambling he was better that who they had at the time...the Montana situation is definitely the comparable in the Manning situation...and although Montana did take the Chiefs to their only AFC Championship he never played a full season in either year with the team...and that is the crux of my issue with chasing Manning...Montana played two years there and when the toll of playing 15 years in the NFL finally took its toll he promptly took his a$$ back to San Francisco where he retired...your betting Manning can deliver a Super Bowl championship in a short two to three-year window. It's possible although not probable. There are many ways to reach the promised land just think we could find another way without taking a mercenary approach we've seen fail here all too often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedin Green Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Should I follow your tact and come up with a laundry list of excuses blaming everyone but Manning for the Colts playoff failures? I got when it was a big deal early in his career, but do people still really think this is an issue? He's taken the Colts to 2 of the past 5 Super Bowls (1 win) and played significantly better in the postseason during that stretch. And this season should tell you all you need to know about the abilities of his supporting cast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Sounds like the foundation of a good thesis. There's plenty of work out there on how emotion based decision making is flawed. I don't know if it's ever been applied to sports fans. Probably not, as I'd imagine no one cares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 your betting Manning can deliver a Super Bowl championship in a short two to three-year window. No, we'd be betting that the odds of Manning delivering a SB in a short window outweigh the odds that Mark Sanchez can do the same. Plugging a veteran HOF QB in on a win-now team over a young QB for whom there is no precedent for success given his career arc (going back to college) will always be +EV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 No, we'd be betting that the odds of Manning delivering a SB in a short window outweigh the odds that Mark Sanchez can do the same. Plugging a veteran HOF QB in on a win-now team over a young QB for whom there is no precedent for success given his career arc (going back to college) will always be +EV. Manning at 70% is still an upgrade and makes us a superbowl contender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetscode1 Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 But the situations we're talking about are not a single coach (OC) changing a player... you're talking about a guy going to a completely new team - personnel, coaching staff, etc. I was referring to the notion that replacing Schottenheimer would have some magical effect on Sanchez. My point...although there is plenty of room to criticze Mark Sanchez...there is also the fact he has played considerably better than both Brad Johnson and Jim Plunkett did in their first three seasons. That doesn't guarantee a championship but it does suggest QB play can improve...I'd get rid of Schitty because the offense has been atrocious the past six years...I'd also bring in a legitimate competitor for Mark's job and let the best player play. Manning at the cost whether through trade or free agency is a whole other beast...another short-term grab for glory from the Jets...may work...may not. Either way, seriously doubt Manning and Sanchez could co-exist so we could possibly recoup a fifth round pick for Sanchez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Jc... Comparing qb from this era to previous ones doesn't work ... League is much more passer friendly the even 8 years ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Not to derail the screaming-at-Smash, but what do you do with Sanchez if* the Jets acquire Manning? *please God please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Not to derail the screaming-at-Smash, but what do you do with Sanchez if* the Jets acquire Manning? *please God please Trade him for a 3. A 2 if you get a miracle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetscode1 Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Jc... Comparing qb from this era to previous ones doesn't work ... League is much more passer friendly the even 8 years ago Age and injury risks are still comparable...we're gonna have to agree to disagree on Manning, CTM...I'll root for him if he wears the green and white...but rather not see us take the mercenary approach...maybe just feeling burned from the previous attempts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 why is anyone assuming Payton manning will ever play in the NFL again? his neck is all sorts of f--ked up. this isn't a knee or a hand you kinda need your neck. he's won a ring, he owns all the records, why would he come back? To help the NY Jets? a place he didn't want to play 20 years ago? Cmon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedin Green Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Not to derail the screaming-at-Smash, but what do you do with Sanchez if* the Jets acquire Manning? *please God please You'd have to at least make some calls and see if there's any teams out there willing to give something up worthwhile for him. If so, pull the trigger, otherwise you plop his a$$ down on the bench. If you're getting a guy like Manning it's not like you need to be overly concerned about the lockerroom reaction if you kept Sanchez around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Oh I get it. Our O line can;t improve in a year but Mar Sanchez will. Cool story bro. Not to mention that a great QB hides most flaws better than anything else you ca think of... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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