biggest holes left to fill

[Matt39]

lol - while I defended Greene earlier, that particular post had nothing to do with him.

for reference jIF...if you put Lesean Mccoy or Ray Rice on the Jets...the offense barely improves?

[HDKostempski]

The Jets had faith in Wayne Hunter in 2010 and he shined. They changed their blocking schemes last season and he was horrible. I think he'll bounce back just fine in a power blocking scheme. At 6'6, 325, Griffin can play both positions. Not to mention so can Slauson as well and Vlad (if he ever comes around) and they picked up Schlauderaff to play G if that was to take place.

Wayne Hunter has never been more than a backup OT in his entire career. He started a handful of games at the end of 2010, but he got mauled badly as a starter in 2011, and even then Ducasse couldn't put him on the bench. What does that say about Ducasse who's a freaken 2nd rounder who isn't as good as a career backup who was getting beat regularly. So you replaced two quality OLers, Faneca and Woody, with Slausson who is okay but nothing special and Hunter who is lousy. You have black hole behind Mangold as far as depth goes. FTR, it's NOT size that makes a success OT, it's agility and footwork. When players don't have that, they move inside to play guard, so it's unlikely that a collegiate guard is going to move outside. It's more likely that a collegiate OT would move inside. In fact, that's very common. Aside from that I didn't say anything bad about Griffin except that as a 6th rounder, he was a developmental player, and a lot of those guys don't make the team but end up on the practice squad. You can't depend upon a 6th round rookie to improve your OL. Maybe next year or the year after, but not in 2012.

At safety, they picked up 2 FA's along w/ their development draft picks.

Again, 6th and 7th round rookies can't really be counted upon to contribute their first year, and that's assuming they make the team. Landry and Bell are strong safeties who are much better against the run than the pass. Smith struggled to cover TEs, so who's left to cover them?

At RB, they have a ton of options from previous drafts and this years. Did you know Fred Jackson was an undrafted development project who came out in 2003 but didnt come on to 2007?

Point being, going out and spending an arm and a leg on a big name for a guy who didnt play but 5 games last season - isnt always the answer.

Freddie Jackson attracted attention from the time he joined the Bills in 2006. He helped send both Willis McGahee on to Baltimore, and he flat out took the starting RB job away from Marshawn Lynch and made him expendable (and Lynch is doing fine in Seattle BTW). Shonn Greene is the starter by default because Thomas Jones is gone and LT got old fast. He's really NOT a starter for a team that wants to "ground and pound". Then you want a big, tackle-breaking RB like Marshawn Lynch. He pounds, especially in the red zone, but he's fast enough to break some big runs, too.

I'm NOT an advocate for trading for a big name back either. It just might be wiser for the Jets to come up with a different offensive philosophy than "ground and pound" since they don't have the OL or the RBs to be a run first team, especially when they have a QB who grabbed the Trent Edwards' "Captn Checkdown" title in 2011.

[Bleedin Green]

tough guy alert!

Do you actually pay attention to the complete nonsense you write? This should be good... please do tell how exactly you being bitchy and me not caring qualifies me as being a tough guy? Should I be trembling before your mighty strong and intimidating words of you daring to call me an a$$hole?

[JustInFudge]

for reference jIF...if you put Lesean Mccoy or Ray Rice on the Jets...the offense barely improves?

The Ravens and the Jets averaged 23.6 pts per game. Eagles averaged 24.8.

Honestly, its hard to say. Depends on what you mean by barely and depends on if Sanchez takes the next step and the OL comes back to form. If that happened, I think either of those guys would improve the scoring by 4pts per game. If not, maybe 2.

[Matt39]

Do you actually pay attention to the complete nonsense you write? This should be good... please do tell how exactly you being bitchy and me not caring qualifies me as being a tough guy? Should I be trembling before your mighty strong and intimidating words of you daring to call me an a$$hole?

dude every post I make you'll retort it with "endless whining" "bitchfest" and now "pathetic"

I'm just discussing my opinion of the team. That's all. I've never claimed to know everything..I think the offense is going to be god awful this season. I dont endlessly spew made up crap like you claim(unless you want to provide examples)

If I've come off as a dick, I apologize that was never my intent. But I dont get where this is coming from.

[T0mShane]

The Ravens and the Jets averaged 23.6 pts per game. Eagles averaged 24.8.

Honestly, its hard to say. Depends on what you mean by barely and depends on if Sanchez takes the next step and the OL comes back to form. If that happened, I think either of those guys would improve the scoring by 4pts per game. If not, maybe 2.

You're like the football Pythagoras.

[Bleedin Green]

Freddie Jackson attracted attention from the time he joined the Bills in 2006. He helped send both Willis McGahee on to Baltimore, and he flat out took the starting RB job away from Marshawn Lynch and made him expendable (and Lynch is doing fine in Seattle BTW). Shonn Greene is the starter by default because Thomas Jones is gone and LT got old fast. He's really NOT a starter for a team that wants to "ground and pound". Then you want a big, tackle-breaking RB like Marshawn Lynch. He pounds, especially in the red zone, but he's fast enough to break some big runs, too.

I'm certainly not going to argue that Greene is better than Jackson, but this is some serious revisionist history right here. Throughout Jackson's career the Bills have constantly been looking for a different option at RB and preferring to toss Jackson back to the bench if possible. They were seriously investing in other RBs all along, be it McGahee, Lynch or Spiller, and despite how you're trying to paint it all three were considered anywhere from busts to at the very least great disappointments during their time in Buffalo, which played a big part in Jackson even getting an opportunity. In the end it worked out quite well for the Bills, and he's a quality player, but let's not pretend like he was an all star in the making from the day he was added to the Bills' roster.

[Matt39]

The Ravens and the Jets averaged 23.6 pts per game. Eagles averaged 24.8.

Honestly, its hard to say. Depends on what you mean by barely and depends on if Sanchez takes the next step and the OL comes back to form. If that happened, I think either of those guys would improve the scoring by 4pts per game. If not, maybe 2.

fair enough. With a sh*t QB I just think a home run threat out of the backfield would help this team immensely. Losing guys like Brad Smith(who had those quiet big plays for us that we didnt have last year) and even going further back with Leon have caught up to us.

[JustInFudge]

Wayne Hunter has never been more than a backup OT in his entire career. He started a handful of games at the end of 2010, but he got mauled badly as a starter in 2011, and even then Ducasse couldn't put him on the bench. What does that say about Ducasse who's a freaken 2nd rounder who isn't as good as a career backup who was getting beat regularly. So you replaced two quality OLers, Faneca and Woody, with Slausson who is okay but nothing special and Hunter who is lousy. You have black hole behind Mangold as far as depth goes. FTR, it's NOT size that makes a success OT, it's agility and footwork. When players don't have that, they move inside to play guard, so it's unlikely that a collegiate guard is going to move outside. It's more likely that a collegiate OT would move inside. In fact, that's very common. Aside from that I didn't say anything bad about Griffin except that as a 6th rounder, he was a developmental player, and a lot of those guys don't make the team but end up on the practice squad. You can't depend upon a 6th round rookie to improve your OL. Maybe next year or the year after, but not in 2012.

True. While Hunter was outstanding backing up Woody, he struggled as an every day starter in 2011. So its probably not too far stretched to believe that after year under his belt, the may just improve. Especially with a better suited scheme and an offseason.

Either way, you said the Jets didnt address the OL. I showed you two examples of how they did and the flexibility some of those moves give the Jets. Whether you or I think they'll work is pure speculation. But they addressed it. At least in their eyes. I for one, believe they have the talent and that talent will be utilized best in a power blocking scheme, which needs power, as well as foot work.

Again, 6th and 7th round rookies can't really be counted upon to contribute their first year, and that's assuming they make the team. Landry and Bell are strong safeties who are much better against the run than the pass. Smith struggled to cover TEs, so who's left to cover them?

Eric Smith was part of the 5th best passing defense in the league playing on a torn meniscus. Even so, they added 4 more safeties in during the offseason, some vets and some projects, yet the Jets didnt address the position according to you.

Freddie Jackson attracted attention from the time he joined the Bills in 2006. He helped send both Willis McGahee on to Baltimore, and he flat out took the starting RB job away from Marshawn Lynch and made him expendable (and Lynch is doing fine in Seattle BTW). Shonn Greene is the starter by default because Thomas Jones is gone and LT got old fast. He's really NOT a starter for a team that wants to "ground and pound". Then you want a big, tackle-breaking RB like Marshawn Lynch. He pounds, especially in the red zone, but he's fast enough to break some big runs, too.

So he's a project player who did all this good stuff, but the Jets project players are incapable of such great accomplishments? K.

I'm NOT an advocate for trading for a big name back either. It just might be wiser for the Jets to come up with a different offensive philosophy than "ground and pound" since they don't have the OL or the RBs to be a run first team, especially when they have a QB who grabbed the Trent Edwards' "Captn Checkdown" title in 2011.

The Jets offensive philosophy that doesnt have the talent to match produced 1 of 14, 1000 yard rushers in the NFL and had the 13th ranked scoring offense despite an insane number of turnovers. Whether a player like Hill (the only starting addition) helps improve it is clearly yet to be seen but I see no reason why or how the Jets with better play from the RT and less turnovers from their QB, cant improve upon last seasons flaws.

[JustInFudge]

fair enough. With a sh*t QB I just think a home run threat out of the backfield would help this team immensely. Losing guys like Brad Smith(who had those quiet big plays for us that we didnt have last year) and even going further back with Leon have caught up to us.

That type of conjecture is just hard to predict. I mean, the Eagles have Vick, Maclin, Jackson, Celek and McCoy and play for an offensive minded HC and only scored 1pt more a game than the Jets.

I personally think Flacco sucks and has Rice and their offense sucked too. Hard to watch at times sucked. He helps because they suck that bad but it didnt result in more pts per game? And isnt that the whole objective, to outscore the opponent?

[T0mShane]

And isnt that the whole objective, to outscore the opponent?

You're like the football Schopenhauer.

[JustInFudge]

You're like the football Schopenhauer.

Take a picture. It will last longer.

[RutgersJetFan]

Well this thread turned Magic Mike fairly quickly.

[HessStation]

1. RB

2. RT

3. FS

[Matt39]

Jets running back Shonn Greene

For Greene's game reviews, I made sure to pick heavy-workload affairs that might offer polar viewpoints. I chose Week 14 against Kansas City -- Greene's best box score of the season -- and Week 6 versus Miami -- a difficult matchup in which Greene struggled on 22 touches. As a cherry on top, I watched Greene's Week 3 game at Oakland because he caught a season-high seven passes.

On the very first snap of the Chiefs game, Greene followed FB John Conner's lead block into a massive chunk of open grass. Greene rumbled 31 yards, although he left many more on the field by running squarely into CB Brandon Carr, and finally ILB Derrick Johnson, who pushed Greene out of bounds. This would easily go down as Greene's longest run in the three games I viewed.

For a power back listed at 226, Greene only occasionally moves the pile on his own. He's far too often tackled directly at the line of scrimmage. Greene can be tough to bring down in space, but he rarely gets there, lacking any hint of lateral moves and possessing below-average short-area burst.

No one would argue that the Jets' O-Line is as effective as it was in its heyday. But in the Kansas City matchup in particular, the front five generated solid movement in the run game. Greene left a ton of yardage on the field by failing to recognize cutback lanes or hit them with purpose when he did. He has remarkably slow feet for a running back, and Greene's poor vision is just as worrisome.

Greene certainly lacks speed to get the corner. He must have creases up the gut to create solid gains.

I charted every third-down snap in the Dolphins and Chiefs games. There were 24 of them. LaDainian Tomlinson operated as a single-set back on 21. Greene was the lone back twice. And then-rookie Bilal Powell took a carry on third-and-11 for the last one.

Greene pass blocked on just three occasions in the two later-season contests -- late in the second quarter of the Chiefs game, again in the third quarter, and one time against Miami. Just once did Greene effectively handle a pass rusher. He took safety Reshad Jones out of a play in the Miami game.

I admittedly entered these games viewing Greene as a pedestrian talent. He was even worse than I expected. Greene's positives are few. He does look the part at 5-foot-11, 220-plus and can be hard to tackle with a full head of steam. But because he sees the field so poorly and takes so long to hit top speed, I'd hesitate to even call Greene a back who "gets what's blocked." He gets less than that.

The Jets under GM Mike Tannenbaum have done a putrid job of evaluating offensive talent within their own organization. Greene and swinging-gate right tackle Wayne Hunter are prime examples of what will likely prove franchise-dooming incompetency. Both players are slated for starting roles in 2012.

[slats]

fair enough. With a sh*t QB I just think a home run threat out of the backfield would help this team immensely. Losing guys like Brad Smith(who had those quiet big plays for us that we didnt have last year) and even going further back with Leon have caught up to us.

So what's the logic behind the historically bad offense stuff? That the Jets are now two years removed from having Brad Smith?

Last years offense wasn't good, but they still put points on the board. Why is this years' model going to be so disastrously bad? Is it the loss of LT? 'Cause that seems like a bit much to me. It's the same QB, same OL, same TE, #1 WR, RB, as last year. What's the big downturn? Is Hill/Schilens going to be that much of a downgrade from Plaxico? Is Tebow a downgrade from Kerley running the wildcat? (I couldn't help but notice that you seem to think that's important). Is Sparano a downgrade from Schottenheimer?

I mean, I get not being all excited about the offense, but I don't get the historic level doom & gloom. I think the added speed at WR is a major plus. If Hill isn't going to produce because he's a rookie, then you oughta be all excited about Jeremy Kerley entering his second season coming off a 29 catch rookie campaign.

So really, why is it going to be so bad this year?

[Matt39]

So what's the logic behind the historically bad offense stuff? That the Jets are now two years removed from having Brad Smith?

Last years offense wasn't good, but they still put points on the board. Why is this years' model going to be so disastrously bad? Is it the loss of LT? 'Cause that seems like a bit much to me. It's the same QB, same OL, same TE, #1 WR, RB, as last year. What's the big downturn? Is Hill/Schilens going to be that much of a downgrade from Plaxico? Is Tebow a downgrade from Kerley running the wildcat? (I couldn't help but notice that you seem to think that's important). Is Sparano a downgrade from Schottenheimer?

I mean, I get not being all excited about the offense, but I don't get the historic level doom & gloom. I think the added speed at WR is a major plus. If Hill isn't going to produce because he's a rookie, then you oughta be all excited about Jeremy Kerley entering his second season coming off a 29 catch rookie campaign.

So really, why is it going to be so bad this year?

I just don't see where our TD's are going to come from. Basically what it comes down too...who on this team is going to be getting into the endzone?

[slats]

I just don't see where our TD's are going to come from. Basically what it comes down too...who on this team is going to be getting into the endzone?

LT had three TDs last year. Whatever I think of Joe McKnight, I think he can pick those up.

Plaxico Burress had 8 TDs, and I don't see a reason why they can't be spread out amongst Holmes (8), Keller (5), Kerley (1), and Hill/Schilens (2).

And Tebow had 6 rushing TDs last year, too.

[Matt39]

LT had three TDs last year. Whatever I think of Joe McKnight, I think he can pick those up.

Plaxico Burress had 8 TDs, and I don't see a reason why they can't be spread out amongst Holmes (8), Keller (5), Kerley (1), and Hill/Schilens (2).

And Tebow had 6 rushing TDs last year, too.

I'm hoping one of these guys that Tannenbaum has drunkenly drafted at RB can pan out to at least be able to split carries with Greene. Or Tebow fully transitions into an Hback and can offer some real value in the running game and as a pass catcher.

The offense sucked last season. The guys we're replacing at WR and 3rd down back Im not confident are even better than the stiffs we had last year.(Hill right now, is a project, but I do like).

[slats]

The offense sucked last season. The guys we're replacing at WR and 3rd down back Im not confident are even better than the stiffs we had last year.(Hill right now, is a project, but I do like).

Not being confident that they are better doesn't explain your repeated hyperbole about the historically bad offense on the horizon. The Jets were in the top half of the league in scoring last year with all of three TDs coming on defense and special teams, total. So possibly not improving hardly makes your case for historically bad.

I want to hear some logic behind the historically bad rhetoric you've been repeating here for some time now.

[Matt39]

Not being confident that they are better doesn't explain your repeated hyperbole about the historically bad offense on the horizon. The Jets were in the top half of the league in scoring last year with all of three TDs coming on defense and special teams, total. So possibly not improving hardly makes your case for historically bad.

I want to hear some logic behind the historically bad rhetoric you've been repeating here for some time now.

Like I said, I dont see anyone capable of making a big play on offense. Our offense wont benefit from our defense going up against guys like Tyler Palko and Josh Mccown again next season, rewarding them with easy scoring opportunities.

Historically bad is a reach, I admit, but I dont see the offense improving from last years bad version based on personnel returning.

[slats]

Like I said, I dont see anyone capable of making a big play on offense. Our offense wont benefit from our defense going up against guys like Tyler Palko and Josh Mccown again next season, rewarding them with easy scoring opportunities.

Historically bad is a reach, I admit, but I dont see the offense improving from last years bad version based on personnel returning.

That's a start.

You don't think a rookie WR who averaged over 29 yards a catch last year can make a big play? Tim Tebow had a couple 30 yard runs last year, a couple Hail Timmy throws, you don't think he can do that sort of thing here?

I don't know, I think they added a couple playmakers. McKnight has speed, too, if they manage to get him the ball in space.

[Matt39]

That's a start.

You don't think a rookie WR who averaged over 29 yards a catch last year can make a big play? Tim Tebow had a couple 30 yard runs last year, a couple Hail Timmy throws, you don't think he can do that sort of thing here?

I don't know, I think they added a couple playmakers. McKnight has speed, too, if they manage to get him the ball in space.

Hill is obviously the wildcard. If he can immediately come in and get those explosion plays we desperately missed last season I'll be a happy man. I just have to lean toward him taking some time to adjust before that happens. He;s not going to be running 40 yards down the field with no one within 20 yards like he was last year.

[T0mShane]

Can we get back to Tannenbaum's "franchise dooming incompetency"?

[SenorGato]

Still very confused as to why Greene needs to be an elite runner to not suck and for this offense to work. They're not even laying all their eggs into his basket as far as rushing goes because it's very well established that he's not elite. That's why there's like 4 other runners vying for carries behind him. I just don't recall reading in the Groundz and Poundz rule book that you only use one RB and he has to be elite. The Bears went to a SB with Mediocre Jonss and Half Ass Benson....Ravens, Texans, Eagles, Titans, and Vikings have basically gone nowhere the Jets haven't been in recent years despite their elite RBs....the only reason the Jets are even pushing their Ground and Pound sh*t is because the QBs development has been retarded and running the ball was the foundation of any success they had on offense. Solid is fine, especially if someone besides Greene and Tebow step up.

[T0mShane]

Still very confused as to why Greene needs to be an elite runner to not suck and for this offense to work. They're not even laying all their eggs into his basket as far as rushing goes because it's very well established that he's not elite. That's why there's like 4 other runners vying for carries behind him. I just don't recall reading in the Groundz and Poundz rule book that you only use one RB and he has to be elite. The Bears went to a SB with Mediocre Jonss and Half Ass Benson....Ravens, Texans, Eagles, Titans, and Vikings have basically gone nowhere the Jets haven't been in recent years despite their elite RBs....the only reason the Jets are even pushing their Ground and Pound sh*t is because the QBs development has been retarded and running the ball was the foundation of any success they had on offense. Solid is fine, especially if someone besides Greene and Tebow step up.

Because they're about to commit 60% of their offense to a guy who's, at best, a marginal starter.

[SenorGato]

Because they're about to commit 60% of their offense to a guy who's, at best, a marginal starter.

Is any of this factual? Even then, is RB as its viewed and used today the kind of position where a great starter is even close to a necessity? The Steelers Groundz and Poundzededed with old ass Bettis and Willie Parker and won a SB. The Panthers might have the most talented duo in the league and it's gained them nothing for 3-4 years now.

I just don't get how you can whine about relying on an outdated offensive ideal but get mad that the team isn't using an outdated method (one stud RB) to make it happen.

[slats]

Hill is obviously the wildcard. If he can immediately come in and get those explosion plays we desperately missed last season I'll be a happy man. I just have to lean toward him taking some time to adjust before that happens. He;s not going to be running 40 yards down the field with no one within 20 yards like he was last year.

No, probably not. He'll be taking a CB with him. If he connects a couple times, he'll start drawing safety attention as well. This is why I'm excited to have a little speed at the WR position this year. If Hill starts attracting that kind of attention, it's going to help open up the running game. One thing Sparano brings is a desire to hit the long ball once in a while. I think we'll see more of those plays this year. Even if they miss, they get the defense's attention.

Jeremy Kerley was drafted in the 5th round last year and had 29 catches as a rookie as the third WR taking over after the team cut Derrick Mason. The Jets have already penciled Hill in as the starter, why shouldn't the second rounder do better than Kerley in his rookie season? As long as he stays healthy, I think the floor for him should be somewhere in the 45 catch, 750 yard, 5 TD range.

And Kerley should be up around 50 catches this year himself.

[JustInFudge]

Because they're about to commit 60% of their offense to a guy who's, at best, a marginal starter.

Not even you believe that Greene is going to be 60% of the offense.

Is any of this factual? Even then, is RB as its viewed and used today the kind of position where a great starter is even close to a necessity? The Steelers Groundz and Poundzededed with old ass Bettis and Willie Parker and won a SB. The Panthers might have the most talented duo in the league and it's gained them nothing for 3-4 years now.

I just don't get how you can whine about relying on an outdated offensive ideal but get mad that the team isn't using an outdated method (one stud RB) to make it happen.

That deep bro, deep.

[T0mShane]

Is any of this factual?

From a philosophical standpoint, no, no future event can be considered "factual," seeing as how it has not yet occurred. Similar to how the phrase "the sun will set this evening" is not technically "factual," the phrase "Shonn Greene will be asked to carry a significant share of the offensive load for the Jets in 2012" isn't factual, per se. All we can do is account for the existing data (Greene as primary back+Greene as only established back+Sparano's statement that the team will look to run it 60% of the time+turnover prone QB) and make assumptions based on that data. There could be a catastrophic event that causes the sun to collapse upon itself; the earth could similarly implode; Joe McKnight could evolve as a significant contributor; Bilal Powell could be Barry Sanders Redux; Mark Sanchez could have an epiphanal moment, become a great QB, and force an organizational philosophy shift; Tony Sparano could be Bill Walsh.

In sum, no, my statement was not factual. You got me there.

[Boblivius]

This thread suggests that there are many holes requiring filling. Overall, many responses are replete with negativity which is usual for Jet fans. For many of you, the entire organization is a vast hole that can never be filled.

[SenorGato]

I hate you T0mShane! You ignored the #2 back btw. Tebow the Converter or sumthin. Not to mention that it only takes one guy taking a leap for this offense to make some noise. Sure that guy sucks and was drafted for his Multi-demographic marketability, but I'm bored.

[Matt39]

Is any of this factual? Even then, is RB as its viewed and used today the kind of position where a great starter is even close to a necessity? The Steelers Groundz and Poundzededed with old ass Bettis and Willie Parker and won a SB. The Panthers might have the most talented duo in the league and it's gained them nothing for 3-4 years now.

I just don't get how you can whine about relying on an outdated offensive ideal but get mad that the team isn't using an outdated method (one stud RB) to make it happen.

Where did anyone say that? Greene is going to be the primary back, and he sucks. Powell and Ganaway are unknowns. McKnight- meh. Decent receiver, sh*tty runner.

Having a stud back isnt a necessity- see Jets 2009, but we dont have Damien Woody and Alan Faneca run blocking anymore either. A stud back that can create for himself would help offset that. Instead, we have the slow footed Greene who basically knows how to run through obvious holes and that's it.

[nj meadowlands]

Matt39 has devolved from being a very reasonable, logical, and enjoyable poster to writing forcibly negative stuff in a seeming attempt to uphold his credibility.

Observation of the day!

[slats]

Where did anyone say that? Greene is going to be the primary back, and he sucks. Powell and Ganaway are unknowns. McKnight- meh. Decent receiver, sh*tty runner.

Having a stud back isnt a necessity- see Jets 2009, but we dont have Damien Woody and Alan Faneca run blocking anymore either. A stud back that can create for himself would help offset that. Instead, we have the slow footed Greene who basically knows how to run through obvious holes and that's it.

I think they'll try to have Greene handling about half the carries, with McKnight and Tebow getting the bulk of the other half.

I don't disagree agree with you about the Jets' RBs. I wanted Lamar Miller this year in the third, and I'd love to see the team spend a first or second rounder on the position. I think the new rookie cap really lends itself to drafting a stud RB early and running him into the ground. But the Jets don't have that. I'm left to hope Powell or Ganaway steps up as a viable alternative.