Report: Jets "really wanted" Brian Hoyer

[stugotz81]

I disagree.  It comes down to the HC, NOT the QB.  It's part of the HC's job to keep players playing hard and busting their butts even when the team or a key player or players (even the QB) aren't playing well.  It's harder, but ultimately, the HC is responsible, NOT the QB. 

I understand that's part of the Head Coach job description, but unfortunately it rarely plays out like that.

[JoeKlecko]

Those same experts also said that Russell Wilson was too short to play qb, and that Tom Brady is a horrible qb. Case in point, they've been wrong before, and they'll continue to be wrong. Anyway, the best player should start, which is Geno. RG3 and Cam also didn't play in a pro style offense and they turned out just fine. 

 

Comparing Smith to Cam and RGIII is apples and oranges.  They were consensus "can't miss" QB prospects who won national championships and were drafted in the top 5.  Not so with Smith.

 

If Smith obliterates Sanchez in the competition and it isn't even close, then yes he should start, but that will mean that he has adjusted more quickly than it was thought that he would and it probably wouldn't hurt him.  That's one thing.  Starting Geno simply because Sanchez sucks and nobody wants to  see him on the field, and because is the new QB and "anyone other than Sanchez", regardless of whether he's ready to start or not is what would damage him.

[JoeKlecko]

I understand that's part of the Head Coach job description, but unfortunately it rarely plays out like that.

 

That may be true, but doesn't mean that's the way it should be, and for a quality HC it isn't.

[slats]

I think from previous posts you've said that you think Smith should sit for the first half of the season, so I can't disagree too vehemently with you.  I think they will have a very, very good idea about Smith before he even takes his first snap in a game.  If he isn't ready and can't play better than Sanchez in practice by mid-season, then he may never be ready, and I think they need to plan on taking Bridgewater or Manziel (or a topflight QB prospect if they falter).  If he is as good a QB as they think, he will be starting by mid-season unless he gets injured (God forbid) or a miracle happens and Sanchez suddenly starts playing lights out.

If the the Jets want to decide that Geno isn't good enough without him ever setting foot on the field, that's one thing. It's not the way I would play it, but if he's that bad in practice, so be it. I'm talking more about deciding whether or not he is good enough. They can't really do that without getting him into the action.

 

As I said to Artemuslcyde, if the Jets are 2-10 when Smith begins starting and the team is just going through the motions, or perish the thought, if the Jets have lost a couple of starters on offense  to injury, how much more could they tell about Smith?  Not much.  If anything, he'd be likely to start pressing, trying too hard, trying to do too much to compensate.  If the OL hasn't gelled, how much could they tell if he is running for his life on every snap of the ball?

I think you can find out a whole helluva lot. The biggest knock on Geno is mental. Best way to try and test that is to throw him into adversity. If the Jets are 2-10, that adversity is kinda manufactured, anyway. Throw him in when their playoff hopes are still alive (if such a thing is possible), then you'll really get an idea of his mental makeup. Pressing, trying too hard, etc., might be signs that he's not up for the big stage. He should be coached up on the idea that he should be taking what the defense gives him, then see if he's capable of doing that.

[JoeKlecko]

If the the Jets want to decide that Geno isn't good enough without him ever setting foot on the field, that's one thing. It's not the way I would play it, but if he's that bad in practice, so be it. I'm talking more about deciding whether or not he is good enough. They can't really do that without getting him into the action.

 

I think you can find out a whole helluva lot. The biggest knock on Geno is mental. Best way to try and test that is to throw him into adversity. If the Jets are 2-10, that adversity is kinda manufactured, anyway. Throw him in when their playoff hopes are still alive (if such a thing is possible), then you'll really get an idea of his mental makeup. Pressing, trying too hard, etc., might be signs that he's not up for the big stage. He should be coached up on the idea that he should be taking what the defense gives him, then see if he's capable of doing that.

 

As I guessed, we're mostly just gonna have to agree to disagree.  While the Jets won't be able to definitively determine if he's their QB of the future until he plays, they can either rule him out if he just doesn't have it in practice, or see that he has shown enough promise.  If he has shown that promise, then I think he will see the field.  If they think he's ready to play, then he should have worked out his footwork issues, learned the offense, and gotten totally used to taking snaps from under center.  Once he's worked out those issues pressure free, then I have no problem with his starting.

 

Most QBs (young or old) will press and try to do too much when they have no weapons around them or those weapons aren't playing well.  One can't hope to win if one is continually having to punt or throw the ball away.  So I disagree that this might be a sign that he's not up to the big stage.  You take that approach, you probably have to rule out 90-95% of the QBs in the NFL, maybe 100%, as even Brady, Manning and Rodgers press when things aren't working.

[pedro55]

Our running backs and offensive line look better along with our receivers because Hill isn't a rookie anymore. Also, our offensive line looks better with all the additions they have made, you also can't forget Marty. As for Geno, if he is the best qb in camp (which he is, it's Mark Sanchez) than he should start week 1 of the regular season. It would be better for his growth if he's starting, holding a clipboard on the sideline isn't going to do much for him compared to real game experience.

 

  Why?   Greene wasn't any good, but he's done more in his career than any of the Jets RBs.   Marty is ok, and he should be better than the last two OC, but who knows, the guy was the OC on an eagles team people proclaimed was a "dream team" and they sucked the last two years.  

[artemusclyde]

  Why?   Greene wasn't any good, but he's done more in his career than any of the Jets RBs.   Marty is ok, and he should be better than the last two OC, but who knows, the guy was the OC on an eagles team people proclaimed was a "dream team" and they sucked the last two years.  

 

Chris Ivory, if he stay's healthy is better than anyone in our backfield since Lt. Marty is a really good oc, I believe it was 10 years in a row or so where his offense was in the top ten. Anyways, this team, if Geno plays well could be really good.

[Lupz27]

The other variable is Woody. How long will he put up with his team facing more boos at home than on the road? No season ticket holder wants to see Sanchez under center this year. It's tough to see the big picture with a butt fumble obstructing your view.

 

BUT Woody will take attention anyway he can get it, and if Sanchez trots out on the field week 1 the Jets will get more attention (all negative) then the top teams in the NFL, throw in a pick 6 to Revis, and Sanchez (also the boo's will be aimed at the whole organization if this happens) booed louder than any other player in NY history, the media will be all over this, and the Jets will again be the talk of the league for all the wrong reasons!

[SayNoToDMC]

BUT Woody will take attention anyway he can get it, and if Sanchez trots out on the field week 1 the Jets will get more attention (all negative) then the top teams in the NFL, throw in a pick 6 to Revis, and Sanchez (also the boo's will be aimed at the whole organization if this happens) booed louder than any other player in NY history, the media will be all over this, and the Jets will again be the talk of the league for all the wrong reasons!

 

 

The Woodinator is only worried about selling PSL's/tickets right now and nobody is paying to go watch Sanchez

[NCJETSFAN]

Who cares about hoyer ? Like he makes a difference on this team . Next year we cut Cro. Holmes and Sanchez so woody can save money and keep telling us we need to be patient

[Stonehands]

I have hopes that Geno will be better than we think this year. If there is a complaint about his college resume it is that his offense had him dinking and dunking the ball to set up yards after the catch for his receivers.  Well, that sounds a lot like what the west coast offense tries to do.  I think Geno could be very well suited to run that offense and may have a better year than people currently think.

[stugotz81]

BUT Woody will take attention anyway he can get it, and if Sanchez trots out on the field week 1 the Jets will get more attention (all negative) then the top teams in the NFL, throw in a pick 6 to Revis, and Sanchez (also the boo's will be aimed at the whole organization if this happens) booed louder than any other player in NY history, the media will be all over this, and the Jets will again be the talk of the league for all the wrong reasons!

Revis is definitely gonna make us eat sht week 1... one way or the other  

[JohnnyLV]

Disagree all you want, but you're dead wrong imo.  Forcing Sanchez to start before he was ready ruined whatever chances he had of ultimately developing and succeeding.  Doing the same to Smith, when he probably needs time to adjust to the speed of the game in the NFL, work on his footwork, work on reading NFL defenses, learning the offense and continuing to work on his game, would be a colossal mistake and mind numbingly stupid.  

 

Smith doesn't have to start the season for the Jets to find out if he is our franchise QB.  He could sit the entire season and never play a down, the Jets could draft Bridgewater or Manziel in next year's draft, and Smith could beat which ever QB they draft out and go on to a long and successful starting career in the NFL.  There should be absolutely NO pressure on Smith to have to start immediately.  If he is ready to start by mid-season or even earlier, so much the better, but if not, that's ok too.  He will eventually get game experience.  I would think that if the Jets have as bad a season as many fans think they will, that for certain they'd start Smith the last 4-5 games to get some idea of how he handles things, whether he's ready or not, but in those circumstances and situation, they might not be able to tell very much.  After all, with few weapons around him, and if Sanchez has been his normal awful self, and the team has continued to flounder and be a circus as last season, then it would an impossible situation for Smith to do much in, especially if Rex has lost the team by then and they're just going through the motions.

 

Actually I think you are the one dead wrong. Sitting a rookie QB and letting him learn only really applies to teams that have an established veteran starter, that the rookie can learn from just by watching and getting help as offered. It makes no sense for a team without a solid starting QB.

 

Rookie start now. It is the new NFL. Rookies come into the NFL from complex, pro style and progressive offenses and with a significant amount of experience if they are a 3 or 4 year starter like Geno.  Joe Montana is his college career attempted 515 passes total.Geno attempted 518 in 2012 and 1465 in his college career. He has 3 times as many pass attempts already in a complex offense than Montana did. QBs used to come into the NFL without much QB experience, and with limited to no exposure to NFL concepts. They needed to sit and just learn QB at the NFL level. That is no longer true. Rookie QBs are NFL ready and the best way for them to learn is in games. Period. Sitting a QB for 2 years to learn is completely a thing of the past and has no place in today's NFL except for teams with elite starting QBs already.

[jbone]

Sanchez could have sat behind Joe Montana for 3 years......he would still suck. Starting him his first year didn't ruin him.

[JoeKlecko]

Actually I think you are the one dead wrong. Sitting a rookie QB and letting him learn only really applies to teams that have an established veteran starter, that the rookie can learn from just by watching and getting help as offered. It makes no sense for a team without a solid starting QB.

 

Rookie start now. It is the new NFL. Rookies come into the NFL from complex, pro style and progressive offenses and with a significant amount of experience if they are a 3 or 4 year starter like Geno.  Joe Montana is his college career attempted 515 passes total.Geno attempted 518 in 2012 and 1465 in his college career. He has 3 times as many pass attempts already in a complex offense than Montana did. QBs used to come into the NFL without much QB experience, and with limited to no exposure to NFL concepts. They needed to sit and just learn QB at the NFL level. That is no longer true. Rookie QBs are NFL ready and the best way for them to learn is in games. Period. Sitting a QB for 2 years to learn is completely a thing of the past and has no place in today's NFL except for teams with elite starting QBs already.

 

It's fine that we disagree.  

 

At the risk of being a smart ass, however, I'm glad to know that we have a board member who knows better than all the NFL scouts and "experts" since every one of them I've seen quoted said that Smith needs to sit for a year.  He may have thrown a lot of passes in a "complex" offense, but it wasn't an NFL-type offense, and he never took one snap from under center as far as I know.  BIG difference.

 

Just because the Jets don't have a viable veteran starter doesn't mean that Smith should get thrown to the wolves.  That's faulty logic.  I am a voice teacher, and I know how people learn, and most do not learn that well under pressure, especially when they're trying to change basic fundamentals in technique in a muscular and/or athletic-type endeavor.  Retraining the muscles, coordination and "re-programming" the mind is key, and that takes focused effort (repetitions) and time.  It cannot be rushed.  In trying to rush it and force someone like that to produce in a performance situation, they don't have time or the ability to "fix" those fundamental technique issues.  There's too much else to think about.  Because they have fundamental issues, it's going to cause problems in execution of the offense and cause mistakes.  In the process, Smith's confidence can suffer.  Why risk it when you don't have to?  The team isn't going anywhere this year anyway.  Winning another few games is meaningless in the big picture, long term view of the franchise.  Smith needs to adjust to getting the ball from under center, taking a quick 3 step drop, while surveying the field, and getting his footwork right.  He has to learn the offense and adjust to the speed of the game in the NFL.  That's a lot.

 

They made the same mistake with Sanchez in the exact same situation.  How many times does that have to happen before the light goes on for you?  I'm sorry, but you're approach is short-sighted, not based on knowledge of what it takes to make those kinds of changes, and is based only on immediate gratification rather than taking a smarter, long-term approach.

[JoeKlecko]

Sanchez could have sat behind Joe Montana for 3 years......he would still suck. Starting him his first year didn't ruin him.

 

That's only your opinion, not a fact.  While Sanchez may never have developed into a topflight starting QB, there's little doubt in my mind that he would have been much, much better.  He would have had pressure-free time to work on honing his craft, learn the offense, and learn from one of the best to ever play the game.  Think Rodgers would be as great if he hadn't sat?  I don't, not for a minute.  Starting a rookie with few college starts and with fundamental issues he needed to work on in the spotlight of NYC when the HC is predicting a SB victory is mind numbingly stupid. Very few could succeed under those circumstances.

[Bleedin Green]

That's only your opinion, not a fact.  While Sanchez may never have developed into a topflight starting QB, there's little doubt in my mind that he would have been much, much better.  He would have had pressure-free time to work on honing his craft, learn the offense, and learn from one of the best to ever play the game.  Think Rodgers would be as great if he hadn't sat?  I don't, not for a minute.  Starting a rookie with few college starts and with fundamental issues he needed to work on in the spotlight of NYC when the HC is predicting a SB victory is mind numbingly stupid. Very few could succeed under those circumstances.

 

I'm sorry, but considering that Sanchez took a substantial turn for the worse in his 4th year in the league, I'm not sure there's much to support that argument when it comes to Sanchez.  I won't argue against the idea that it could be a definite benefit for certain players to have some time to sit, as my original hope was admittedly to see Garrard start the first half of the year until Geno eventually stepped in, but I can't see how this applies to Sanchez.  It's not like he had some sort of massive meltdown in his rookie year that could be argued to have completely ruined his career; far from it.  He had the top defense and top running game in the league to lean on and the team actually saw some degree of success.  If that was too much for him to handle, then I'm sorry, but I can't see how anything the Jets would have done could have changed that.

[jbone]

That's only your opinion, not a fact.  While Sanchez may never have developed into a topflight starting QB, there's little doubt in my mind that he would have been much, much better.  He would have had pressure-free time to work on honing his craft, learn the offense, and learn from one of the best to ever play the game.  Think Rodgers would be as great if he hadn't sat?  I don't, not for a minute.  Starting a rookie with few college starts and with fundamental issues he needed to work on in the spotlight of NYC when the HC is predicting a SB victory is mind numbingly stupid. Very few could succeed under those circumstances.

The bold, actually the entire post pretty much, is just your opinion, not fact. 

 

Sitting one year would have meant Sanchez is not god awful? There's a lot of assumptions that go into that premise, most of which requires a lot of grasping at straws, IMO.

 

 

My opinion is closer to reality we live in.

 

 

Aaron Rodgers would be Aaron Rodgers if he sat behind Joey Harrington for 3 years.  These guys are inherently great. A mentor helps them along, but they don't teach greatness. No one can teach a player how to be great if they don't have it in them. Sanchez just doesn't have it in him. The difference of sitting him for one year would be rather insignificant. He is all kinds of bad, and classroom learning isn't helping that.

[SenorGato]

Once again, the massive difference in games started in college makes the Smith situation very different from the Sanchez situation.

[JoeKlecko]

I'm sorry, but considering that Sanchez took a substantial turn for the worse in his 4th year in the league, I'm not sure there's much to support that argument when it comes to Sanchez.  I won't argue against the idea that it could be a definite benefit for certain players to have some time to sit, as my original hope was admittedly to see Garrard start the first half of the year until Geno eventually stepped in, but I can't see how this applies to Sanchez.  It's not like he had some sort of massive meltdown in his rookie year that could be argued to have completely ruined his career; far from it.  He had the top defense and top running game in the league to lean on and the team actually saw some degree of success.  If that was too much for him to handle, then I'm sorry, but I can't see how anything the Jets would have done could have changed that.

 

Perhaps not, especially with the OCs and QB Coach he had to work with, but if the Jets had a competent QB Coach and OC, then I think it would have made a difference.  Mark needed to mature out of the spotlight.  He needed time to work on fundamentals.  Even if they didn't have a great veteran to learn from, he could have learned what NOT to do by watching that QB.

 

I think that Sanchez took a turn for the worse because his confidence was shot.  After 3 years of playing for a clueless HC (when it comes to offense), and incompetent doofuses at QB Coach and OC, 2 different offenses, with few real weapons around him on offense, and very poor OL play in his 3rd year, what else could one reasonbly expect, particularly when it was said that he needed to sit and learn for at least a year and probably two, by most of the "experts".  He was extremely raw, but talented.  He isn't the sharpest pencil in the box, either.  He isn't the type that can just learn it on his own or that has the cockiness to see him through.  He's the more sensitive type and needed to be groomed and handled in the right way to have a chance to succeed.

 

Even if everything was as it should have been, Sanchez may never have developed into a quality starting QB, but he sure would have had a heck of a lot better chance at that happening, if the Jets FO and CS had a clue of what they were doing.

[JoeKlecko]

The bold, actually the entire post pretty much, is just your opinion, not fact. 

 

Sitting one year would have meant Sanchez is not god awful? There's a lot of assumptions that go into that premise, most of which requires a lot of grasping at straws, IMO.

 

 

My opinion is closer to reality we live in.

 

 

Aaron Rodgers would be Aaron Rodgers if he sat behind Joey Harrington for 3 years.  These guys are inherently great. A mentor helps them along, but they don't teach greatness. No one can teach a player how to be great if they don't have it in them. Sanchez just doesn't have it in him. The difference of sitting him for one year would be rather insignificant. He is all kinds of bad, and classroom learning isn't helping that.

 

I didn't say it was "fact". I said I "think" he wouldn't have been as great.  I stand by that.  While you have a point about greatness in individuals, I think it would have taken Rodgers a lot longer to become "great" and the road (and his stats) would have been a lot bumpier, not the immediate greatness that he displayed.

 

Also, note that I never said that Sanchez would have been great if he had sat for a year or two, only that he would have been much more solid.  Feel free to disagree as much as you like.  That's what makes the world go around (and these boards more interesting).