the truth about John "the cap guy" Idzik

[T0mShane]

I disagree about Coughlin. The press tried to run him out of town twice, once after he even won a SB. They hated him. Many still do. He actually sat down with their big writers at one point and asked what he could do to be better and they pretty much told him you have to allow us to do our job. They were right too. You cant be so pissed about your team that you go tell a reporter to screw themselves whenever they try to get access to anyone. At the time they used to go to Tiki and company to get him to rip the guy on or off the record. I think it was after the Panthers loss where he went out of his way to tell everyone that the team was outcoached and to make sure that was printed.

Reese I think was more an example of picking your battles. Knowing the Giants organization they knew he was going to be there for a long time. Picking fights with him was counterproductive so you rip the more public face of the team and put enough pressure to make him go.I think he also won brownie points when he said Eli was "skittish" and needed to improve to keep his job. If Tannenbaum had done the same with Sanchez last year instead of "Mark does good things and we believe in him We all need to improve, including me" he would have had a better chance of being here.

I dont think Idzik owes them access or anything else (though keeping them from reporting on formations is ridiculous) but for his own sake he has to realize that by completely taking it away they are going to write things that criticize him right away. Its bad enough to have one Francesa railing against anything wearing green. To have like 20 of them is just a nightmare.

In reply to your second point, I just don't think the GM needs to have a public face outside of the pre- and post-draft presser, and one pre- and post-season Q&A with the media. It's alright if he's MIA, or secretive. The coach, obviously, has to deal with the media multiple times in a day, as he's also the one would have the most to explain on a daily basis. I agree that the coach needs to be visible and relatively accommodating, just not so much the GM. I think the Jets beat guys played to Tannenbaum's desire to be a celebrity GM, and they all made their livings being hand-fed juicy storylines by Tannenbaum (and others), and now the same beat writers are dealing with the culture shock of not having that level of access available to them anymore. If Mehta or Cimini want to campaign against him, I can't see how that impacts Idzik one way or the other if he's performing. As Sperm was saying earlier--what salacious headlines can you write about a team that wins?

[#27TheDominator]

The picture will come more into focus next year, when his newly put together front office puts together a draft, and he has $50M burning a hole in his pocket.

For now, he's an incomplete. Strong on style, limited in substance.

 

Strong on style?  Seriously?  This is not a very stylish regime. 

[T0mShane]

I don't need an excuse to ban you. I'll ban you as a birthday present to Max, and he'll thank me.

You think the statement that, "NOBODY gets hired as a general manager without some capacity to evaluate talent," offers some kind of insight? Is that really what you're hanging your hat on here? You're gonna criticize my comments incomparison to the brilliance of that line? Lol!

Idzik may have some capacity, but it doesn't appear to be his strong suit. And I'd strongly prefer someone who has talent evaluation at the top of his list of skills, not buried somewhere in the middle.

My two cents here:

1. Ape is a clown. Tannenbaum couldn't find a football player if JJ Watt came up and grabbed him by the nostrils.

2. Talent evaluation is a decidedly hit or miss set of criteria, as every pre-draft media frenzy proves to us over and over again. Building a football team requires a lot more than knowing that Player X is a super-talented player today. I can't recall the name, but Idzik is supposed to be hot for one of Seattle's scouts and is allegedly set to hire him next season to, I suppose, be the "talent guy," supplanting Bradway. Idzik has to use every one of his resources to run the team, not beat the bushes looking for small school sleepers.

Note: if you people are on Twitter, a few of the deposed former Jets scouts started accounts. Reading their timelines, you can tell right away just how awful that personnel department was.

[slats]

Strong on style?  Seriously?  This is not a very stylish regime.

Strong on style in the sense that he's the opposite of the alleged "circus-like atmosphere" the Jets have been accused of having here the last couple years. His style, or lack thereof, puts a different face on the franchise.

[Integrity28]

gary myers mentioned it in the pre-game show.  I never said posters do it.  Its the media bias and predetermined narrative.

 

it pissed me off.  so I sat down and started typing...lol

 

Yup, Myers, Cimini, Mehta... a lot of the writers have been pushing it, and you see it echoed regularly on boards. 

 

Honestly, it's a great thread subject and opening post. I'm glad you dug those heels in.

[flgreen]

 puts a different face on the franchise.

God help us

[slats]

My two cents here:

1. Ape is a clown. Tannenbaum couldn't find a football player if JJ Watt came up and grabbed him by the nostrils.

QFT, on both counts.

Tannenbaum was completely insecure in his abilities as a talent evaluator, and that's why he traded up for the "can't miss" prospect, and paid the highest price for the top free agents. Anything beyond those "consensus" guys, and he was completely lost.

2. Talent evaluation is a decidedly hit or miss set of criteria, as every pre-draft media frenzy proves to us over and over again. Building a football team requires a lot more than knowing that Player X is a super-talented player today. I can't recall the name, but Idzik is supposed to be hot for one of Seattle's scouts and is allegedly set to hire him next season to, I suppose, be the "talent guy," supplanting Bradway. Idzik has to use every one of his resources to run the team, not beat the bushes looking for small school sleepers.

Again, I don't want the GM to be personally beating the bushes, I just want him to have the ability to view the tapes for himself when presented with these guys and be able to see for himself the value that player has - rather than having to completely rely on his underlings. John Idzik can bring all the executive presence he can muster, but if he has to rely on the people beneath him for that sort of thing, he'll eventually be undermined. The GM has to be the top personnel guy, IMHO. It's not merely a managerial position.

[JoeKlecko]

If you tell reporters that you are not going to allow them to mention formations, personnel groupings, etc... until its actually run in a game its not letting people report. These people have a living to make and you are hurting their ability  to do that. In turn they are not going to give you a honeymoon period. This is exactly why things turned from "Idzik is a tough negotiator" to "Idzik gets a failing grade".  The openness of the Jets organization is gone. It goes beyond interviews with him. Its just general access. I don't care one bit but that's a fact. If you dont learn to play ball with the media in NY they rip you apart. Its part of the job. Nothing Mehta printed about Idzik is any different than what would have been printed about Tannenbaum. If you take the honeymoon portion out of it, these are moves that would have gotten the incumbent killed. I dont think  there is anything wrong with most of the moves simply because the team has a longer term plan that has to be more important than a short term prayer, but just because a guy is new doesnt make the moves great while for the last guy the same moves would have been awful. 

 

Working with the media is key for so many to survive. That doesnt mean you make moves to "please them". It just means giving them something to work with. Dont let some person in the stands be a better follow on Twitter than the reporter.  If the Jets had not broken off their relationship with Mike Francesa there is a better chance that Tannenbaum would still be here. He went on a crusade against the Jets for three years and is the one that started the whole circus nonsense. That decision came far above Tannenbaum but in a business where negative publicity is not good it helped signal the end for Mike and is about to signal the end for Rex too. 

 

If you want evidence about him being anything like Tannenbaum just go look over the contracts given to their players. He did those deals. He signed off on those moves. Did he or did he not guarantee Sidney Rice $15 million?  Zach Miller $13 million?  Philosophically the approach to player valuations and contract payout structures is very similar. This wasnt signing someone out of the 49ers or Packers organization who behave in a manner completely different than Tannenbaum did. Those teams approach the cap most differently and take an extremely pessimistic/risk averse view of everyone on their rosters from Patrick Willis and Aaron Rodgers all the way down to number 53 on the roster. Idzik never did in Seattle. 

 

Jason,

 

First let me say that I had no idea you are the one who does the NY Jets Cap site.  If I had known that beforehand, my response would have been different, but I still disagree with you.

 

I don't believe that Idzik is the only GM or HC in the NFL that doesn't allow reporters to print that kind of information.  Rex did it all the time last season (and maybe before, but I don't remember) and it hurt the team.  He was stupid enough to tell reporters what the Jets were going to do or what their focus was going to be that week.  He might as well have given that week's opponent his game plan.  IMO that's common sense.  You don't give away formations and strategy.  IMO reporters have no business getting or printing that kind of information.

 

You probably are right that the NY media will rip Idzik, but I'm sure he could care less.  I would.  Screw the NY media.  They're just a bunch of lying scumbag hacks anyway.  I have absolutely ZERO respect for most of the editors and reporters at NY newspapers.

 

I also totally disagree with you about there being no difference between how the media would have handled Tranny and how they're handling Idzik.  IMO that's off base.

 

We are in total agreement on the bolded sentence at the end of your first paragraph.

 

I'm sure that Idzik does give them something to work with. He doesn't forbid them from speaking with players or the CS.  He has just said that it's not his style to be center of attention.  He'd rather the spotlight be on others.  They just got spoiled with Tranny and Rex telling them everything and supplying them with a lot of juicy stuff to print.  Now the lazy hacks actually have to work for a living, think, and God forbid, be an actual journalist, not just a glorified typist who takes a story that the GM or HC gives them and puts their spin on it.

 

You say that, "If the Jets had not broken off their relationship with Mike Francesa there is a better chance that Tannenbaum would still be here." as if that's something desirable.  I despised Tanny and never wanted him as GM to begin with.  I think he was terrible and wish they'd broken off their relationship with Mike Francesa years earlier (he's a *&%*#&@), especially if it would have helped to get rid of Tranny earlier.  If you think Tranny was a great or even good GM and the Jets would have been better off with him, then I'll just leave it that I WILDLY and TOTALLY disagree with you.

 

John Idzik was NOT the GM in Seattle.  Unless you have personal, behind-the-scenes info (indisputable proof) that signing those players and for those amounts was ALL John Idzik, then you have provided no proof or evidence.  I'm not saying that that may not be true, but I would have to see it in writing as a verifiable fact, before I would believe it.  Pete Carroll could have said he wanted those players, or whomever the GM is could have told Idzik to sign the players and what amounts to pay.  Even if it was all on Idzik, I really don't care what he did in Seattle.  That was a different team and a different season.  He's a first time GM.  He's entitled to make some mistakes.  If he screws the pooch next offseason on the draft and FA, then I'll be ready to call for his head, but until then, I'm ready to give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

For the record, I never wanted him to be the new GM.  I had never heard of him before.  I wanted a GM with a lot of personnel/scouting experience.  So far, at least, I think he's done a pretty good job cleaning up the mess that Tranny left.  The job isn't finished by any means, but he didn't have a lot of ability to do anything this year due to the cap constraints.

[JoeKlecko]

He currently sits in 1 of 32 coveted General Manager positions in the NFL, his job is to evaluate and acquire football players within the constraints of a salary cap structure. NOBODY gets this job without having the chops to evaluate talent. 

 

This ongoing debate/discussion, as well as the vast over-simplification of how teams are built and who is responsible when players succeed and fail demonstrates a vast misunderstanding of everything about how the NFL functions. It's kind of unbelievable at this point.

 

You can't be serious.  The NFL is an old boy's network.  People get promoted all the time for things they're not capable of doing.

 

I can think of three guys right off the top of my head who were NFL GMs and absolutely sucked at building a team and identifying talent.  Mike Tannenbaum, Matt Millen and Jerry Angelo.  There are others.  The history of the GM position of the NY Jets is full of incompetent guys.

[MexiRoll6]

Great post Larz. You really did your homework which is something that those guys you mentioned (Mehta, Cimini and Myers) should do more often. They come from a place of anti Jets bias and write for papers that care more about controversy than truth. No GM is perfect or has a perfect "personnel" background. Look at Dick Steinberg. the guy was the GM for years in New England and drafted well enough for the Pats to reach the SB, yet he came here and was a disaster. He failed to get Brett Favre, Emmitt Smith, Cortez Kennedy and many others. I give Idzik the benefit of the doubt and I have more faith in HIM turning the Jets around than I do Rex Ryan.

[JoeKlecko]

QFT, on both counts.

Tannenbaum was completely insecure in his abilities as a talent evaluator, and that's why he traded up for the "can't miss" prospect, and paid the highest price for the top free agents. Anything beyond those "consensus" guys, and he was completely lost.

Again, I don't want the GM to be personally beating the bushes, I just want him to have the ability to view the tapes for himself when presented with these guys and be able to see for himself the value that player has - rather than having to completely rely on his underlings. John Idzik can bring all the executive presence he can muster, but if he has to rely on the people beneath him for that sort of thing, he'll eventually be undermined. The GM has to be the top personnel guy, IMHO. It's not merely a managerial position.

 

With regard to the first bolded portion, truer words were never said on any Jets board.  I'd even go one step further than "insecure."  I think he knew that he didn't know jack, but thought he had to bluff his way through, or thought swinging for the fences all the time was the way to go.  "Lost" is the key word there.

 

With regard to the second bolded portion, imo that's what a team President is for...to oversee the overall operation of the football team.  That should be an administrative guy, but more than just a bean counter or attorney.  He needs to have a solid grounding in football and know the game.  I agree that the GM's top skill should be talent evaluation.  HE is the guy I want making decisions on whom to draft and which FAs to try to sign, not some underling in the Scouting or Personnel Depts.

[Integrity28]

You can't be serious.  The NFL is an old boy's network.  People get promoted all the time for things they're not capable of doing.

 

I can think of three guys right off the top of my head who were NFL GMs and absolutely sucked at building a team and identifying talent.  Mike Tannenbaum, Matt Millen and Jerry Angelo.  There are others.  The history of the GM position of the NY Jets is full of incompetent guys.

 

Fair point... but, you are saying that because it's an "old boys network" an owner of a multi-million dollar sports franchise will promote an incompetent KNOWING BEFOREHAND that he's an incompetent. Got it.

 

Listen, plenty of GMs come-and-go where we can look back on them AFTER the fact and know they were over-promoted and under-qualified. All I am saying is that I don't think owners purposely seek out one-dimensional candidates. Which ties back to the original post in that Idzik hasn't even been here for a full pre-season and the media is selling us on him being one-dimensional, and many fans agree.

 

I don't.

 

He may prove inadequate, but it won't be because Woody purposefully hired another "bean counter" as part of his overall strategy. 

[Integrity28]

My two cents here:

1. Ape is a clown. 

 

Very nice Tom. LOL

 

I knew once Slats started trolling me, that the stench would attract you...

[slats]

Fair point... but, you are saying that because it's an "old boys network" an owner of a multi-million dollar sports franchise will promote an incompetent KNOWING BEFOREHAND that he's an incompetent. Got it.

 

Listen, plenty of GMs come-and-go where we can look back on them AFTER the fact and know they were over-promoted and under-qualified. All I am saying is that I don't think owners purposely seek out one-dimensional candidates. Which ties back to the original post in that Idzik hasn't even been here for a full pre-season and the media is selling us on him being one-dimensional, and many fans agree.

 

I don't.

 

He may prove inadequate, but it won't be because Woody purposefully hired another "bean counter" as part of his overall strategy.

We should really reserve content like this for our premium members.

[JoeKlecko]

Great post Larz. You really did your homework which is something that those guys you mentioned (Mehta, Cimini and Myers) should do more often. They come from a place of anti Jets bias and write for papers that care more about controversy than truth. No GM is perfect or has a perfect "personnel" background. Look at Dick Steinberg. the guy was the GM for years in New England and drafted well enough for the Pats to reach the SB, yet he came here and was a disaster. He failed to get Brett Favre, Emmitt Smith, Cortez Kennedy and many others. I give Idzik the benefit of the doubt and I have more faith in HIM turning the Jets around than I do Rex Ryan.

 

You're right, Steinberg was awful with the Jets.  Whatever skills or eye for talent he possessed while with the Rams and Pats deserted him when he came to the Jets.  He may have been industrious,a hard, tireless worker, whatever, (as George Young and Bobby Beathard stated) but he no longer had an eye for talent.  He was GM of the Jets from 1989 - 1995.  To his credit, he tried to hire Bill Walsh as HC.  If he had succeeded, our history would have been very different.  He also tried to hire George Perles and failed.  Bruce Coslett and Pete Carroll were his HCing hires.

 

His first NFL draft in 1990 was Blair Thomas (1), Reggie Rembert (2), Tony Stargell (3), Troy Taylor (4), Tony Savage (5), Robert McWright (5), Terance Mathis (6), Dwayne White (7), Basil Proctor (7), Roger Duffy (8), Dale Dawkins (9), Brad Quast (10), Derrick Kelson (11), Darrell Davis (12) and Rob Moore in the supplemental draft I think.  White and Duffy were serviceable OL.  Mathis wound up being an excellent WR but for the Falcons, and Moore was the lone excellent pick, but I think he cost the Jets their #1 pick in the following year's draft.  Stargell was a meh CB.

 

His 1991 draft was worse:  Browning Nagle (2), Mo Lewis (3), Mark Gunn (4), Blaise Bryant (6), Mike Riley (6), Doug Parrish (7), Tim James (8), Paul Glonek (9), Al Baker (10), Rocen Keeton (11), Mark Hayes (12).  Mo Lewis was the only keeper of the lot.

 

1992 was better or worse depending upon your point of view: Johnny Mitchell (1), Kurt Barber (2), Siupeli Malamala (3), Keo Coleman (4), Cal Dixon (5), Glenn Cadrez (6), Jeff Blake (6), Vincent Brownlee (8), Mario Johnson (10), Eric Boles (12).  A very talented, but immature and enigmatic TE, a pretty good OT, a backup C,  a STs lber and blitzer, and a backup QB they didn't keep.

 

1993 was perhaps his best draft: Marvin Jones (1), Coleman Rudolph (2), David Ware (4), Fred Baxter (5), Adrian Murrell (5), Kenny Shedd (5), Richie Anderson (6), Alec Millen (7), Craig Hentrich (8).  Even though Jones was a big disappointment as a pro, he probably still was his best first round pick, although that distinction may go to Hugh Douglas.  In Baxter, Murrell and Anderson he got 3 good contributors.  Hentrich wound up being a great punter, but alas, not for the Jets.

 

1994 brought Aaron Glenn (1), Ryan Yarborough (2), Lou Benfatti (3), Orlando Parker (4), Horace Morris (5), Fred Lester (6), Glenn Foley (7).  A very good CB and a pretty bad QB.

 

1995 brought us Kyle Brady (1), Hugh Douglas (1), Matt O'Dwyer (2), Melvin Hayes and Tyrone Davis (4), Carl Greenwood (5), Eddie Mason (6). Curtis Ceaser (7).  A soft TE, a good pass rusher, a decent, yet penalty-prone OG, a backup CB and STs lber.

 

Among his FA signings were Ronnie Lott, Leonard Marshall, and Art Monk.

[JoeKlecko]

Fair point... but, you are saying that because it's an "old boys network" an owner of a multi-million dollar sports franchise will promote an incompetent KNOWING BEFOREHAND that he's an incompetent. Got it.

 

Listen, plenty of GMs come-and-go where we can look back on them AFTER the fact and know they were over-promoted and under-qualified. All I am saying is that I don't think owners purposely seek out one-dimensional candidates. Which ties back to the original post in that Idzik hasn't even been here for a full pre-season and the media is selling us on him being one-dimensional, and many fans agree.

 

I don't.

 

He may prove inadequate, but it won't be because Woody purposefully hired another "bean counter" as part of his overall strategy. 

 

No, no one has said that owners intentionally hire "incompetent" GMs.  That would be insane.  But they have obviously hired men who had minimal or non-existent talent evaluation skills.

 

What I disagree with is this:   

 

"NOBODY gets hired as a general manager without some capacity to evaluate talent," 

 

 

The disagreement I think is primarily one of semantics, but imo the owner thinks that the GM he's hiring has some capacity to evaluate talent, but in reality the GM has little or no capacity for evaluating talent or understanding of how to build a roster.  I think the problem is with owners, many, if not most, of whom have no real knowledge of the game. They hire men they think will be very good leaders, administrators and talent evaluators, but have no real basis or experience in being able to determine what kind of talent evaluator the GM candidate will be.

[Integrity28]

No, no one has said that owners intentionally hire "incompetent" GMs.  That would be insane.  But they have obviously hired men who had minimal or non-existent talent evaluation skills.

 

What I disagree with is this:   

 

 

The disagreement I think is primarily one of semantics, but imo the owner thinks that the GM he's hiring has some capacity to evaluate talent, but in reality the GM has little or no capacity for evaluating talent or understanding of how to build a roster.  I think the problem is with owners, many, if not most, of whom have no real knowledge of the game. They hire men they think will be very good leaders, administrators and talent evaluators, but have no real basis or experience in being able to determine what kind of talent evaluator the GM candidate will be.

 

Gotcha - I agree with you here. GMs do get hired with no capability to evaluate talent all the time. That's why they get shown the door so often. It's just something we learn about them after the fact, but yes, it happens all the time.

 

My initial point should have been worded differently - that's my bad - what I actually mean is that no owner hires a GM candidate who hasn't shown the ability to evaluate talent as well as perform all other functions of the role. Meaning during the interview process. It doesn't absolutely mean they can, but the owners don't seek out "cap guys" or "personnel guys" exclusively, which IS the angle the press is selling. 

[Integrity28]

We should really reserve content like this for our premium members.

 

The jury on Idzik is still out, words, words, words words words... please everyone compliment my intelligence. Yeah, premium content. 

 

When you go to bed at night, do you tell yourself you "taught me a lesson"? 

 

 

[slats]

The jury on Idzik is still out, words, words, words words words... please everyone compliment my intelligence. Yeah, premium content.

When you go to bed at night, do you tell yourself you "taught me a lesson"?

When I say the jury is still out on Idzik, I get that to some degree I'm simply stating the obvious. He didn't have much room to work with this offseason, and anyone paying attention recognized that this was a two year rebuild project.

But I'm also being generous and hopeful, because I think he screwed up in finding a veteran to compete for the starting QB spot. At least finding some sort of place-holder. And I do not like the trade for Ivory, or, to a lesser extent, the deal for Goodson. The trade, in particular, isn't a smart move in a rebuild year, IMHO. Lots of good talent available in the fourth round of any draft. No reason to trade a pick there away for a higher cap number, especially one with Ivory's injury history.

Owners don't seek out one dimensional candidates... ?

That's gold right there. I can't compete with that.

[jason423]

 

John Idzik was NOT the GM in Seattle.  Unless you have personal, behind-the-scenes info (indisputable proof) that signing those players and for those amounts was ALL John Idzik, then you have provided no proof or evidence.  I'm not saying that that may not be true, but I would have to see it in writing as a verifiable fact, before I would believe it.  Pete Carroll could have said he wanted those players, or whomever the GM is could have told Idzik to sign the players and what amounts to pay.  Even if it was all on Idzik, I really don't care what he did in Seattle.  That was a different team and a different season.  He's a first time GM.  He's entitled to make some mistakes.  If he screws the pooch next offseason on the draft and FA, then I'll be ready to call for his head, but until then, I'm ready to give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

For the record, I never wanted him to be the new GM.  I had never heard of him before.  I wanted a GM with a lot of personnel/scouting experience.  So far, at least, I think he's done a pretty good job cleaning up the mess that Tranny left.  The job isn't finished by any means, but he didn't have a lot of ability to do anything this year due to the cap constraints.

 

FWIW the GMs dont really run the salary cap or contracts for a team. They set parameters and have input on the biggest deals but the reality is most everything goes through the teams cap managers. The GMs approach them saying we would like Player X, Y, and Z how can we make that work and the cap guys get back to them with a report, structures, everything else.  The GM is really the CEO but is not as active in the day to day cap as much as people thing. When Tannenbaum was hired as GM his duties as "bean counter" effectively ended. Most people give them the credit/blame and I do it as well since thats the way most everyone talks, but there is a group of people who really are responsible. The Jets had two people who worked extensively on researching the salary cap, contracts, and negotiations under Tannenbaum. One was retained and one was let go. They set that direction on cap as much as if not more than Tannenbaum. The same would be true in Seattle. Idzik as the cap guy is more or less the lead of every contract they are signed. He didnt make the decision to sign Sidney Rice (he may have had some input but he wasnt making that decision) but he does come up with the high and low prices, guarantees, and contract structures.

 

I firmly believe that one of the reasons Idzik got the job here is because when he discussed that aspect of the Jets with Woody he was able to do so in a language Woody understood because the roster construction was very similar to what they had in Seattle. Other guys (Ted  Sundquist for example) came in and talked about 3 years of salary nightmares and cap mitigation because they come from a completely different background. None of that was true but the Jets had a complex contract system in place that was different than many teams.  Woody has only known Tannenbaum so finding a similar thinker makes sense. For example Idzik received some credit for getting Holmes to take a paycut. The reality is that move was set in place in 2011 when they signed him. The Jets never had any intention of paying him $11 million this year and the contract was designed to force him into a paycut unless he put up 1300 yard type seasons. Idzik would have picked up on that in a second when preparing for his interviews. Other guys just looked at Holmes as a cap killer that was going to destroy the Jets cap for years to come.  All it was going to take was one year to be one of the most cap rich teams in the NFL. 

 

The Jets could have created millions in cap this year and been active in free agency. It wasnt a real constraint on the team. But wisely they decided to turn over the roster and trade Revis and not go wild in what was a very poor free agent class. 

[T0mShane]

QFT, on both counts.

Tannenbaum was completely insecure in his abilities as a talent evaluator, and that's why he traded up for the "can't miss" prospect, and paid the highest price for the top free agents. Anything beyond those "consensus" guys, and he was completely lost.

Again, I don't want the GM to be personally beating the bushes, I just want him to have the ability to view the tapes for himself when presented with these guys and be able to see for himself the value that player has - rather than having to completely rely on his underlings. John Idzik can bring all the executive presence he can muster, but if he has to rely on the people beneath him for that sort of thing, he'll eventually be undermined. The GM has to be the top personnel guy, IMHO. It's not merely a managerial position.

Here's what gives me hope that Idzik isn't just a pencil-pusher: the guys he drafted are all of the gym rat/live for the game variety player. He didn't draft workout warriors, and he didn't draft Combine guys. This hearkens back to the Mangini/Parcells era of drafting where (God help me) character mattered. This is a marked difference from Tannenbaum, who loved him some 40 times.

[Integrity28]

When I say the jury is still out on Idzik, I get that to some degree I'm simply stating the obvious. He didn't have much room to work with this offseason, and anyone paying attention recognized that this was a two year rebuild project.

But I'm also being generous and hopeful, because I think he screwed up in finding a veteran to compete for the starting QB spot. At least finding some sort of place-holder. And I do not like the trade for Ivory, or, to a lesser extent, the deal for Goodson. The trade, in particular, isn't a smart move in a rebuild year, IMHO. Lots of good talent available in the fourth round of any draft. No reason to trade a pick there away for a higher cap number, especially one with Ivory's injury history.

Owners don't seek out one dimensional candidates... ?

That's gold right there. I can't compete with that.

 

Heh. You got nothin'

 

It's great to see you putting in this much effort though, life must be especially miserable this week.

 

Considering that I quote a post of yours that I basically agreed with, and extrapolated upon with my own point of view. I can only surmise it's the neg rep I gave you that cause todays outburst of trolling me, threatening me and passive-aggressively calling me a clown via TomShane. 

 

One little ol' neg rep ... doesn't seem insecure at all.

[JoeKlecko]

FWIW the GMs dont really run the salary cap or contracts for a team. They set parameters and have input on the biggest deals but the reality is most everything goes through the teams cap managers. The GMs approach them saying we would like Player X, Y, and Z how can we make that work and the cap guys get back to them with a report, structures, everything else.  The GM is really the CEO but is not as active in the day to day cap as much as people thing. When Tannenbaum was hired as GM his duties as "bean counter" effectively ended. Most people give them the credit/blame and I do it as well since thats the way most everyone talks, but there is a group of people who really are responsible. The Jets had two people who worked extensively on researching the salary cap, contracts, and negotiations under Tannenbaum. One was retained and one was let go. They set that direction on cap as much as if not more than Tannenbaum. The same would be true in Seattle. Idzik as the cap guy is more or less the lead of every contract they are signed. He didnt make the decision to sign Sidney Rice (he may have had some input but he wasnt making that decision) but he does come up with the high and low prices, guarantees, and contract structures.

 

I firmly believe that one of the reasons Idzik got the job here is because when he discussed that aspect of the Jets with Woody he was able to do so in a language Woody understood because the roster construction was very similar to what they had in Seattle. Other guys (Ted  Sundquist for example) came in and talked about 3 years of salary nightmares and cap mitigation because they come from a completely different background. None of that was true but the Jets had a complex contract system in place that was different than many teams.  Woody has only known Tannenbaum so finding a similar thinker makes sense. For example Idzik received some credit for getting Holmes to take a paycut. The reality is that move was set in place in 2011 when they signed him. The Jets never had any intention of paying him $11 million this year and the contract was designed to force him into a paycut unless he put up 1300 yard type seasons. Idzik would have picked up on that in a second when preparing for his interviews. Other guys just looked at Holmes as a cap killer that was going to destroy the Jets cap for years to come.  All it was going to take was one year to be one of the most cap rich teams in the NFL. 

 

The Jets could have created millions in cap this year and been active in free agency. It wasnt a real constraint on the team. But wisely they decided to turn over the roster and trade Revis and not go wild in what was a very poor free agent class. 

 

How could that have happened?  I'm not doubting you, just curious and more than a little fascinated.  I haven't seen anyone else make that claim, but that doesn't mean anything, because the hack beat writers don't have the intelligence or creativity to try to research or figure out something like that on their own.  I KNOW that you understand the cap and are great with it.

[JoeKlecko]

What difference does repping make?  On another Jets site where I used to post, we could rep posts, but it was much more noticeable there.  Here, it's not even hardly seen.  Either way, however, does anyone really pay that much attention to it?  Who cares if someone reps your post or votes it down.

[slats]

What difference does repping make?  On another Jets site where I used to post, we could rep posts, but it was much more noticeable there.  Here, it's not even hardly seen.  Either way, however, does anyone really pay that much attention to it?  Who cares if someone reps your post or votes it down.

This guy:

[slats]

Here's what gives me hope that Idzik isn't just a pencil-pusher: the guys he drafted are all of the gym rat/live for the game variety player. He didn't draft workout warriors, and he didn't draft Combine guys. This hearkens back to the Mangini/Parcells era of drafting where (God help me) character mattered. This is a marked difference from Tannenbaum, who loved him some 40 times.

Looks like he missed the character thing with Goodson.

I like that he stayed put and seemed to stick to his value board. Didn't like trading the fourth rounder, though, and really wanted him to maneuver a trade-down or two. There was some meat in the middle of this last draft, and I don't feel like he took advantage of that. A rebuilding team should be adding picks, not trading them away. This draft was also put together largely by the existing front office, next year will be Idzik's front office.

I'm perfectly fine with the guy not doing everything the way I want it done if he can put together a winner, though. So we'll see. Right now, he has a lot riding on Geno Smith.

[T0mShane]

Looks like he missed the character thing with Goodson.

I like that he stayed put and seemed to stick to his value board. Didn't like trading the fourth rounder, though, and really wanted him to maneuver a trade-down or two. There was some meat in the middle of this last draft, and I don't feel like he took advantage of that. A rebuilding team should be adding picks, not trading them away. This draft was also put together largely by the existing front office, next year will be Idzik's front office.

I'm perfectly fine with the guy not doing everything the way I want it done if he can put together a winner, though. So we'll see. Right now, he has a lot riding on Geno Smith.

I didn't mean "character" in the helps-old-ladies-cross-the-street sense. I meant it in the lives-to-play-football sense.

Goodson is a head-scratcher, though.

[Integrity28]

Calling him a cap guy in the mold of Tannenbaum is simplistic and unfair, but he's still not a personnel guy, either.

 

[Integrity28]

What difference does repping make?  On another Jets site where I used to post, we could rep posts, but it was much more noticeable there.  Here, it's not even hardly seen.  Either way, however, does anyone really pay that much attention to it?  Who cares if someone reps your post or votes it down.

 

Someone that needs his ego stroked daily - Slats comes to mind.

 

Now, tell him how smart he is so his day gets off to a good start.

[Sperm Edwards]

Goodson was pretty minimal risk, though. If this is his one and only year it's a pretty cheap mistake.

$1M SB

$1M salary this year ($1.333M cap space) and with the signing bonus it's the only guaranteed money he's got coming. If he's in rehab, unrelated to anything NFL, I don't even know if the Jets owe him game checks while he's there. They might, since he did show his face and report that first day, but it's not like his absence is due to a football injury.

$0.667M dead cap hit next year if cut in the spring 2014, or

$0.333M dead cap hit each of the next 2 years if cut in the summer 2014

I've seen a lot more get pissed away on guys with lower upside.

What I do like is that it's only a 3 year deal from age 26-28 if he plays the whole contract out. His game is clearly predicated on speed and we're not going to be tied up with him for longer than we want.

It's a cheap gamble.

Ivory is a bit more invested. He'll be here for 2 years no matter what, plus we gave up a decent pick for him. So we'll see. If he turns into Michael Turner lite I'm sure there will be no complaints.

[slats]

Goodson was pretty minimal risk, though. If this is his one and only year it's a pretty cheap mistake.

$1M SB

$1M salary this year ($1.333M cap space) and with the signing bonus it's the only guaranteed money he's got coming. If he's in rehab, unrelated to anything NFL, I don't even know if the Jets owe him game checks while he's there. They might, since he did show his face and report that first day, but it's not like his absence is due to a football injury.

$0.667M dead cap hit next year if cut in the spring 2014, or

$0.333M dead cap hit each of the next 2 years if cut in the summer 2014

I've seen a lot more get pissed away on guys with lower upside.

What I do like is that it's only a 3 year deal from age 26-28 if he plays the whole contract out. His game is clearly predicated on speed and we're not going to be tied up with him for longer than we want.

It's a cheap gamble.

Ivory is a bit more invested. He'll be here for 2 years no matter what, plus we gave up a decent pick for him. So we'll see. If he turns into Michael Turner lite I'm sure there will be no complaints.

I liked the Goodson move a lot better than the Ivory move, because it didn't include a pick and he didn't have the same injury record. The arrest and subsequent (apparent) rehab stint are troubling, though. If he's this far under wraps getting treatment, something really must've been up with him for a while, and the Jets should've red-flagged him as a result.

And I still think you draft RBs.

[GKnight83]

"John Idzik begins his sixth season with the Seahawks after joining the club on February 16, 2007. With Seattle, Idzik oversees player negotiations, the team’s compliance with the NFL salary cap, player personnel transactions, all football operations budgets, staff and team contracts, team travel and most aspects of the day-to-day football operations while also remaining active in player evaluations. In addition, he serves as the club’s primary liaison to the NFL Office and represents the club at League meetings.

Prior to joining the Seahawks, Idzik spent three seasons as Senior Director of Football Operations for the Arizona Cardinals, helping to build an eventual NFC champion. Idzik entered the NFL in 1993 with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. He spent 11 years with the Buccaneers, first as a Pro Personnel Assistant and then was elevated to Director of Football Administration in 1996 and Assistant General Manager in 2001."

 

This is copied from the Seahawks profile of him.  I bolded and underlined the point Mehta. Myers and others chose to ignore.

[Scott Dierking]

I liked the Goodson move a lot better than the Ivory move, because it didn't include a pick and he didn't have the same injury record. The arrest and subsequent (apparent) rehab stint are troubling, though. If he's this far under wraps getting treatment, something really must've been up with him for a while, and the Jets should've red-flagged him as a result.

And I still think you draft RBs.

Wouldn't trading a 4th round pick, essentially be "drafting" a rb? 

 

Drafting a RB that you have had the opportunity to evaluate as a pro?

[Integrity28]

Wouldn't trading a 4th round pick, essentially be "drafting" a rb? 

 

Drafting a RB that you have had the opportunity to evaluate as a pro?

 

No.

 

Primarily because drafting a player means that player gets a rookie contract, while trading a pick for a player usually comes along with a veteran contract. As it did in this case with Ivory.

[Scott Dierking]

No.

 

Primarily because drafting a player means that player gets a rookie contract, while trading a pick for a player usually comes along with a veteran contract. As it did in this case with Ivory.

It also means you are getting a greater unknown. trade-off.