Integrity28 Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 No, and if that's your take from what I said you're obtuse. I'm simply stating that the offense is missing an element that would open up the offense quite a bit. Ugh. Even in the most prolific offenses of the last 10 years, headed by the best QBs in the league, the "deep ball" is such a minor, minor part. I've already posted the data to exhibit this. I also posted data to debunk the notion that Fitz is "teh worst dee-ball trow-ahh evah". What nobody seems to want to talk about is that this offense consists of 3 people. Ivory, Marshall and Decker. If we face a team that goes all-in on taking away 2 of them, then we have to hope that the one unchecked can take over the game. None of the other offensive skill position players have been able to create mismatches. The more tape teams get of our offense, the more they will identify it's limitations. The "deep ball" isn't going to fix that because "open things up" isn't really the problem. Great offenses in this league function around being able to field 5 legit weapons, not all superstars, that give the QB his choice of mismatches. So far, we see Ivory being dominant, and Marshall and Decker able to either win mismatches, or make outstanding ******* plays. The rest of the scrubs aren't giving us the production they need to. We understand that Fitz can throw an off-target ball or two. The bigger problem is that Fitz is only able to rely upon 2 WRs and that becomes very defensible after a couple weeks of tendencies show up on tape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowlesMovement Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Ugh. Even in the most prolific offenses of the last 10 years, headed by the best QBs in the league, the "deep ball" is such a minor, minor part. I've already posted the data to exhibit this. I also posted data to debunk the notion that Fitz is "teh worst dee-ball trow-ahh evah". What nobody seems to want to talk about is that this offense consists of 3 people. Ivory, Marshall and Decker. If we face a team that goes all-in on taking away 2 of them, then we have to hope that the one unchecked can take over the game. None of the other offensive skill position players have been able to create mismatches. The more tape teams get of our offense, the more they will identify it's limitations. The "deep ball" isn't going to fix that because "open things up" isn't really the problem. Great offenses in this league function around being able to field 5 legit weapons, not all superstars, that give the QB his choice of mismatches. So far, we see Ivory being dominant, and Marshall and Decker able to either win mismatches, or make outstanding ******* plays. The rest of the scrubs aren't giving us the production they need to. We understand that Fitz can throw an off-target ball or two. The bigger problem is that Fitz is only able to rely upon 2 WRs and that becomes very defensible after a couple weeks of tendencies show up on tape. Not much else to say, this post says it all perfectly. How many deep shots did Brady take against us this week for all of those complaining about the lack of a deep ball? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzogtheDefiler Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Ok so they cheated twice, but now they are legit. Sure. By the way it doesn't matter. Either they cheat OR they have the greatest QB in the modern era. Either way there's no sense any Jets fan getting their hopes up. You totally missed my point. This discussion is over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetsbull Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I wouldnt have even have rushed brady......just shadow him and bat passes all day........rushing brady is a waste of effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chirorob Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Yup. When are people going to understand that against QB's like Brady, edge rushing is virtually useless unless he's throwing deep. He killed the Jet with quick screens and crossing patterns. Only in the fourth quarter when the Jets rush was gassed and secondary giving slack did he start opening up in the middle range. The Jets' best chance was to keep the ball on TOP and score TD's, not field goals. The injury to Ivory was probably the most negative thing that could have happened to the Jets and it happened on his very first run of the game. From there on, the Jets' running attack was mediocre at best and altered their game plan. More than anyone else, you need to chew clock. You have to rest your D, and the more looks Brady gets at what your defense is trying to do, the more he figures it out, so you don't want a game where both teams are getting 14-15 possesions. The only thing that may help is train your D Lineman, after 2- 2.5 seconds, get your head up and try to bat some passes. Thing is, Brady isn't a short QB, and he has a nice release and doesn't get much batted down. Damn him, I feel dirty now for talking good of him. And. He has sexual relations with young goats. So maybe bring some livestock on the field to distract him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faba Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Just need to get in his face and keep the catches to a minmum after the catch. For the most part we did that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetsbull Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 majority of bradys recievers are under 5 10 he has to throw DOWN there are so many crossing routes with his smurfs ALL battable balls..... ninkovich NEVER rushed unless fmagic tried to run....... . all he did was bat balls I think he had about 7. even when we blitzed LB never a damn hand up ....lb's just ran into a wall in the middle lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzogtheDefiler Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 majority of bradys recievers are under 5 10 he has to throw DOWN there are so many crossing routes with his smurfs ALL battable balls..... ninkovich NEVER rushed unless fmagic tried to run....... . all he did was bat balls I think he had about 7. even when we blitzed LB never a damn hand up ....lb's just ran into a wall in the middle lol I don't think so. LaFell is 6'3? Although he could not catch a cold that day. Dobson is 6'1? Chandler is 6'7? Gronk is 6'6? Taller than you think. Amendola is 5'11 and Edelman is 5'10. So none were under 5'10. And Edelman was shut down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Ugh. Even in the most prolific offenses of the last 10 years, headed by the best QBs in the league, the "deep ball" is such a minor, minor part. I've already posted the data to exhibit this. I also posted data to debunk the notion that Fitz is "teh worst dee-ball trow-ahh evah". What nobody seems to want to talk about is that this offense consists of 3 people. Ivory, Marshall and Decker. If we face a team that goes all-in on taking away 2 of them, then we have to hope that the one unchecked can take over the game. None of the other offensive skill position players have been able to create mismatches. The more tape teams get of our offense, the more they will identify it's limitations. The "deep ball" isn't going to fix that because "open things up" isn't really the problem. Great offenses in this league function around being able to field 5 legit weapons, not all superstars, that give the QB his choice of mismatches. So far, we see Ivory being dominant, and Marshall and Decker able to either win mismatches, or make outstanding ******* plays. The rest of the scrubs aren't giving us the production they need to. We understand that Fitz can throw an off-target ball or two. The bigger problem is that Fitz is only able to rely upon 2 WRs and that becomes very defensible after a couple weeks of tendencies show up on tape. You can throw up charts and numbers all you like, but it's clear that Fitz's lack of arm strength is an issue. It's not so much of an issue when the team has a lead, because then they're sticking with the run and ball-control passing to move the chains and run the clock. But when they're behind, the lack of respect Fitz gets is glaring. We saw it Sunday in the final two minutes of the half, and at the end of the game when the team was down two scores. If the Pats thought for a second that Fitz could throw a deep ball, they'd've protected against it - maybe opening up the underneath a little more. That didn't happen. The Pats stifled the Jets offense by playing Fitzpatrick's limitations. I'm certainly not suggesting that the Jets sit Fitz for Geno at this time. Fitz generally plays well enough to win. As long as the rest of the team is winning, he's a solid game manager. But when the team needs the QB to bring the team back from behind, he's never gonna be that guy. And his lack of arm strength is the reason why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afosomf Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I don't think so. LaFell is 6'3? Although he could not catch a cold that day. Dobson is 6'1? Chandler is 6'7? Gronk is 6'6? Taller than you think. Amendola is 5'11 and Edelman is 5'10. So none were under 5'10. And Edelman was shut down. 3rd and 17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
batmans a scientist Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I'm surprised there isn't more mention of the Pryor injury. He was doing a good job on Gronk who only had one big play in the first half. After Pryor got hurt, just seemed like Brady could get the ball to him at will. On one hand it is disappointing that Pryor got hurt. But he is clearly playing much better than last year and seemed to match up well on the TE, just hope he stays healthy. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity28 Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 You can throw up charts and numbers all you like, but it's clear that Fitz's lack of arm strength is an issue. It's not so much of an issue when the team has a lead, because then they're sticking with the run and ball-control passing to move the chains and run the clock. But when they're behind, the lack of respect Fitz gets is glaring. We saw it Sunday in the final two minutes of the half, and at the end of the game when the team was down two scores. If the Pats thought for a second that Fitz could throw a deep ball, they'd've protected against it - maybe opening up the underneath a little more. That didn't happen. The Pats stifled the Jets offense by playing Fitzpatrick's limitations. I'm certainly not suggesting that the Jets sit Fitz for Geno at this time. Fitz generally plays well enough to win. As long as the rest of the team is winning, he's a solid game manager. But when the team needs the QB to bring the team back from behind, he's never gonna be that guy. And his lack of arm strength is the reason why. I know and agree. I bring it up more to dispute the "deep balls will fix everything" notion. I personally feel the bigger hinderance to this offense is the lack of a pass-catching TE, lack of a pass-catching RB (a Sproles / Woodhead type), and the inability of any WR outside of the top 2 to create mismatches. If you watch all of the good-great offenses in the league today they have a pass-catching 2-minute RB that can create mismatches with LBers in coverage, a hybrid TE that can create mismatches with safeties, LBers and corners in coverage, and WR depth so that when they go 3- and 4-wide, the QB can isolate a mismatch. This doesn't mean I'm ignorant of Fitz's weak arm, it just means I believe that a weak arm can be schemed around... and we aren't really doing that right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I know and agree. I bring it up more to dispute the "deep balls will fix everything" notion. I personally feel the bigger hinderance to this offense is the lack of a pass-catching TE, lack of a pass-catching RB (a Sproles / Woodhead type), and the inability of any WR outside of the top 2 to create mismatches. If you watch all of the good-great offenses in the league today they have a pass-catching 2-minute RB that can create mismatches with LBers in coverage, a hybrid TE that can create mismatches with safeties, LBers and corners in coverage, and WR depth so that when they go 3- and 4-wide, the QB can isolate a mismatch. This doesn't mean I'm ignorant of Fitz's weak arm, it just means I believe that a weak arm can be schemed around... and we aren't really doing that right now. Don't know if it helps your point or hurts it that Ivory and Kerley caught TDs and Tommy Bohannon had 40 yards receiving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity28 Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Don't know if it helps your point or hurts it that Ivory and Kerley caught TDs and Tommy Bohannon had 40 yards receiving. I'd say it helps it, this weeks game was the first time we've seen receiving contributions that matter made by people other than Marshall and Decker. Cumberland should have had a TD too. Anyway, it reinforces the idea that with mismatches exploited beyond the top 2, then it gives the QB more options and becomes less defensible. Fitz's numbers were good this week, not coincidentally. I wish we'd thrown more, frankly. Nobody needed to see Zac Stacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I know and agree. I bring it up more to dispute the "deep balls will fix everything" notion. I personally feel the bigger hinderance to this offense is the lack of a pass-catching TE, lack of a pass-catching RB (a Sproles / Woodhead type), and the inability of any WR outside of the top 2 to create mismatches. If you watch all of the good-great offenses in the league today they have a pass-catching 2-minute RB that can create mismatches with LBers in coverage, a hybrid TE that can create mismatches with safeties, LBers and corners in coverage, and WR depth so that when they go 3- and 4-wide, the QB can isolate a mismatch. This doesn't mean I'm ignorant of Fitz's weak arm, it just means I believe that a weak arm can be schemed around... and we aren't really doing that right now. Well, I've been on the weapons side of the argument since Sanchez, so I don't disagree. Losing Amaro was a big loss. He's a better receiver than Enunwa, and would've been significantly more effective in that H-back role. It's been a few drafts in a row now where I was hoping for that scat back type in the middle rounds, and I'll be hoping again next year. Marshall would've been a great addition for any QB, but their other big addition -Devin Smith- is completely wasted with this QB. They obviously targeted the deep threat as the bigger need than the pass catching back, and that would've worked to loosen up defenses if the QB could throw deep. Teams would be forced to keep a safety back just in case - and not just in situations where the Jets have to score. Now, instead, they can all be in the box to stop the run and the Jets limited passing game. Gailey likes size and willingness to block from his receivers, but hopefully he saw enough from Kerley to try to incorporate his ability to get open into the offense now. It's obvious that the Jets need that fourth option in the offense that just hasn't been there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzogtheDefiler Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 3rd and 17 Until that play that is LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity28 Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Well, I've been on the weapons side of the argument since Sanchez, so I don't disagree. Losing Amaro was a big loss. He's a better receiver than Enunwa, and would've been significantly more effective in that H-back role. It's been a few drafts in a row now where I was hoping for that scat back type in the middle rounds, and I'll be hoping again next year. Marshall would've been a great addition for any QB, but their other big addition -Devin Smith- is completely wasted with this QB. They obviously targeted the deep threat as the bigger need than the pass catching back, and that would've worked to loosen up defenses if the QB could throw deep. Teams would be forced to keep a safety back just in case - and not just in situations where the Jets have to score. Now, instead, they can all be in the box to stop the run and the Jets limited passing game. Gailey likes size and willingness to block from his receivers, but hopefully he saw enough from Kerley to try to incorporate his ability to get open into the offense now. It's obvious that the Jets need that fourth option in the offense that just hasn't been there. Yea, I see it the same way. Frankly, one of my emerging concerns is that the coaching staff (at least on offense) isn't finding more creative ways to find "a job" for the guys they have, rather than just having this glaring "Devin Smith is wasted because of Fitz's arm" problem. I feel like a veteran coach can/should be able to create ways to get the best out of Smith, other than moon-shots. It'll be sickening to me if that is the only thing Smith proves capable of, we needed a more complete weapon from a 2nd round WR. I've been saying it for weeks though, I still feel like this offense is figuring itself out. Winning in spite of it being a work in progress is great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdetroit Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Tbh I am more concerned with the Phins getting it together than losing to the pats. Road game against Brady I expected to lose by a td or less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JiFtheOracle Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Well, I've been on the weapons side of the argument since Sanchez, so I don't disagree. Losing Amaro was a big loss. He's a better receiver than Enunwa, and would've been significantly more effective in that H-back role. It's been a few drafts in a row now where I was hoping for that scat back type in the middle rounds, and I'll be hoping again next year. Marshall would've been a great addition for any QB, but their other big addition -Devin Smith- is completely wasted with this QB. They obviously targeted the deep threat as the bigger need than the pass catching back, and that would've worked to loosen up defenses if the QB could throw deep. Teams would be forced to keep a safety back just in case - and not just in situations where the Jets have to score. Now, instead, they can all be in the box to stop the run and the Jets limited passing game. Gailey likes size and willingness to block from his receivers, but hopefully he saw enough from Kerley to try to incorporate his ability to get open into the offense now. It's obvious that the Jets need that fourth option in the offense that just hasn't been there. If Devin Smith can only run a go route, that his fault and not Fitz. It's not like he's been blowing by guys, wide open. He's had a step, maybe 2, once or twice. If Smith was really blowing by guys, I dont think arm strength would be an issue because Fitz could just lay it out there for him. (kind of like the few long balls he has hit this year) Kerley has been a part of very good running teams, so that a b.s. excuse if that's why he's not in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JiFtheOracle Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Yea, I see it the same way. Frankly, one of my emerging concerns is that the coaching staff (at least on offense) isn't finding more creative ways to find "a job" for the guys they have, rather than just having this glaring "Devin Smith is wasted because of Fitz's arm" problem. I feel like a veteran coach can/should be able to create ways to get the best out of Smith, other than moon-shots. It'll be sickening to me if that is the only thing Smith proves capable of, we needed a more complete weapon from a 2nd round WR. I've been saying it for weeks though, I still feel like this offense is figuring itself out. Winning in spite of it being a work in progress is great. This. Find a way to get him the ball other than sending him on a go route up the sidelines. If that's all Smith can run, he shouldnt be in the game. It's a wasted down. Just like handing off to Zach ******* Stacy. Gailey confuses me, to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzogtheDefiler Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Eagles suck. Can we just trade for Sproles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-Rex Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I still feel they the turning point was when we were down 23-20 and we were second and six and couldn't convert on the next two plays..the pass to Cumberland and Smith made no sense The Smith play could have been a big one if Fitzpatrick goes over the top and leads Smith who had a step on the defender. Can't beat the Pats with "almost" plays, because they WILL MAKE their plays. I agree that Bowles made some clock management mistakes in BOTH half's. I was really upset with how he handled the two minute drill at the end of the first half when a FG and a tie going in would have been big momentum wise. I was screaming WTF as the seconds just ticked off and the Jets ran two plays in a minute and 15 seconds with no hustle or timeout called. It was like Bowles was ok with going in at halftime down by three. That Pats NEVER have that mindset and will squeeze every second out of the clock for a chance to score. Jets need to learn that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzogtheDefiler Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/28/upshot/so-whats-the-patriots-secret-to-success.html?_r=0 In the NY Times! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larz Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Edge rushers are rarely effective against Brady because he gets rid of the ball so quickly. Ironically by passing 54 times the Pats neutralized our interior pass rush which is the way to throw Brady off - pressure up the middle. Also by going hurry up and not substituting the Pats kept the Jets from keeping the Dline fresh. Unfortunately, another smart gameplan by Belicheck and staff . old man pace got him from the edge what else ya got ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzogtheDefiler Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 old man pace got him from the edge what else ya got ? Post says "rarely" effective not never. What you got? Do you need a definition of "rarely"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larz Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Post says "rarely" effective not never. What you got? Do you need a definition of "rarely"? go do your homework, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzogtheDefiler Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 go do your homework, lol LOL - NO!!! Make me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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