Seven Years Ago Today

[Sperm Edwards]

3 hours ago, SoFlaJets said:

 remember when Mark Sanchez was a QB that we ALL believed in? 

No.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

1 hour ago, gEYno said:

There was literally never a time when Mark Sanchez was a QB that we ALL believed in.

At best, Mark Sanchez was a QB that a bunch of fans believed in, a bunch of fans thought he wasn't very good but flashed at moments and might improve, and a few fans rightly expected he'd always be awful.

That goddamn kid****er gave me a cassandra complex.

[Irish Jet]

I loved the trade at the time and thought Sanchez would be great in the pro's.

I do think with hindsight he could have been handled better, or could have handled himself better. He either should have stayed another year at USC or sat his rookie season with us. Ideally Favre wouldn't have been traded and instead came out of retirement to play for us. Not saying it would have changed much and I doubt it would have made him an all-pro but it's impossible to know for sure.

 

[ZachEY]

10 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

While some scoff at the latter stat, the reason it's kept track of is it means it was badly enough thrown to be a pick, which means it was a worse throw than a mere incomplete pass. Dumb luck that it was dropped, but whether it was an INT or not had to do with the defender muffing it, not whether it was bad enough to be picked off. He otherwise gets more credit for it being dropped, as though he'd thrown it away on purpose. While his "stats" treat a throw right at a defender the same as one thrown OOB on purpose, in reality one is a safe throw and he other is an atrocious throw. It gives a fuller indication of how good of a passer a player is. Also fumbles - particularly a fumble-6 - are absent from his passer rating stats even when it's effectively the dagger that ended our playoff run.

Just like some point at dropped passes (on good passes) as an excuse, or if a pick only happened because it bounced off a receiver's hands. 

The Jets ruined him, lol. Yeah right. NFL body, NCAA head. That's what ruined him.

Like any other stat, the exact number isn't that important.  What's important is that regarding that stat, Sanchez outpaced his competition significantly, like, by a huge margin, like, a hair under double the amount of dropped INTs.  Also, that that stat is generally meaningfully predictive of future bad throws/interceptions.  And, future bad throws/interceptions he did throw.

Even with all those bad throws that statistically became the exact same thing as throwing the ball away when avoiding a sack, he still manages to lead the league in turnovers/game since 2009.  A record which may never be broken.

[ZachEY]

9 hours ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

That goddamn kid****er gave me a cassandra complex.

We appreciate you now, dead canary.

[nyjunc]

14 hours ago, Bleedin Green said:

Blame gets shared all around for that Indy game, but that includes Sanchez.  Outside of that one long throw to Braylon, he did very little for the rest of the game.  Hell, 3 of those points you're trying to credit Sanchez for was actually off of a defensive turnover in which the offense then lost yards.  That said, everyone crapped their pants in that game, and the kid was a rookie, so he's hardly solely to blame there, but that still doesn't meet your false agenda of suggesting he did more than enough in that game.

On the other hand, it's outright laughable for anyone to pretend Sanchez deserves anything more than serious criticism for the following year.  The offense score 17 points in the entire game, while Sanchez single-handedly gave 7 to the Steelers.  That means your blame of the Jets D is because they dared give up more than 9 points the entire game.  Those points that Sanchez gave away all by himself were more than the Steelers' margin of victory.  There's no changing that.

Actually the incredible throw to Braylon was one, had another sensational TD throw to keller as he was getting mauled.  In the 2nd half Greene went down and we had no threat of a run game.  2 premier pass suhers coming at a rookie QB in a loud dome knowing the Jets couldn't run.  I wonder why he struggled in that second half?

Pitt controlled the clock all 1st half, he led us back to w/in a score on the road against an elite defense w/ plenty of time to play.  Our D failed us that night and in Indy but they really killed us at Pitt.

14 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Lol try to find 10 who were worse. 

Then find another 10.

so you can't do it, got it.

11 hours ago, PatsFanTX said:

You do realize the Jets haven't sniffed the playoffs since those AFCCG's.

You don't consider missing the playoffs for 5 straight years as a setback?

we missed the last 5 postseasons b/c of Mark?  really? 

he didn't set anything back, he helped elevate the franchise then we abandoned him by expecting him to win w/ Chaz Schilens, Stephen Hill and Clyde Gates.

[nyjunc]

11 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

While some scoff at the latter stat, the reason it's kept track of is it means it was badly enough thrown to be a pick, which means it was a worse throw than a mere incomplete pass. Dumb luck that it was dropped, but whether it was an INT or not had to do with the defender muffing it, not whether it was bad enough to be picked off. He otherwise gets more credit for it being dropped, as though he'd thrown it away on purpose. While his "stats" treat a throw right at a defender the same as one thrown OOB on purpose, in reality one is a safe throw and he other is an atrocious throw. It gives a fuller indication of how good of a passer a player is. Also fumbles - particularly a fumble-6 - are absent from his passer rating stats even when it's effectively the dagger that ended our playoff run.

Just like some point at dropped passes (on good passes) as an excuse, or if a pick only happened because it bounced off a receiver's hands. 

The Jets ruined him, lol. Yeah right. NFL body, NCAA head. That's what ruined him.

it is a ridiculous stat, completely subjective and again you guys bring that silly stat up yet ignore all the drops and ignore the 2 bogus INts vs. GB he was credited with.

He's not ruined, he just needs ta;lent around him like pretty much all QBs not named Tom Brady.  he didn't take over the '85 Bears in 2009, he took over a team that couldn't get to the playoffs a year earlier w/ a HALL OF FAME QB against a much weaker sched and no Tom Brady around.

[Sperm Edwards]

16 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Like any other stat, the exact number isn't that important.  What's important is that regarding that stat, Sanchez outpaced his competition significantly, like, by a huge margin, like, a hair under double the amount of dropped INTs.  Also, that that stat is generally meaningfully predictive of future bad throws/interceptions.  And, future bad throws/interceptions he did throw.

Even with all those bad throws that statistically became the exact same thing as throwing the ball away when avoiding a sack, he still manages to lead the league in turnovers/game since 2009.  A record which may never be broken.

It's an indication of how good or bad his passes actually were. The idea that the numbers show his passes were better, because a dozen & a half of his worst ones were simply dropped by the defense, is a pretty weak indicator of how good a passer he was. If they weren't dropped, were the thrown passes any worse? Of course not.

[BowlesMovement]

I am not sure Sanchez ever could have been a quality NFL QB, but that said, he was a case study on how NOT to develop a QB. Yeah, yeah, I know, great running game, great defense, blah, blah blah..... When he had those things, he performed about as well as anyone could have expected for a kid who arguably should not have even been starting in the NFL, or even in the NFL in 09. The kid was an immature little frat boy, and instead of his HC kicking him in the cock and forcing him to mature and play, his HC was yucking it up with him, dreaming of him schtupping his wife, while his wife sucked his toes. How anyone could defend Rex for his handling of Sanchez was beyond me. Rex proved he had no business being a HC. As for Sanchez being the best option in 09, BS. If the line and defense was as good as it was, Clemens would have been a better option, and Sanchez would have been forced to learn the NFL game and mature. In 2011, he was put in a terrible position. Rex acted like he was a top 5 QB, and even his biggest supporters knew he was not anything close to that. 2012 was an epic disaster on every level, coaching, talent, QB, everything. Again, not saying he ever would have amounted to anything, but when you invest in drafting a QB high, you put him in the best position to succeed, the Jets did the opposite, they put him in a position to fail. Rex was a complete asshat moron, who had zero business as an NFL HC.

[Sperm Edwards]

9 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

 

so you can't do it, got it.

 

It's my job to do your homework assignments? You're the one who wants to assert he was a top 10 QB, then you list the 20+ QBs who were worse. 

[ZachEY]

Per DVOA... QBs better than Sanchez in 2010:

Brady, Rivers, Manning, Rodgers, Ryan, Brees, Rothelisberger, Schaub, Freeman, Palmer, Flacco, Vick, Orton, Cassell, Manning, Hill, Henne, Young, Romo, Kitna, Garrard, Fitzpatrick, Stanton, Wallace, Collins, Stafford, McCoy.

So, that's 27 based on a stat that works exceptionally hard to consider the context of every play.  Not just looking for context that supports a specific argument or position.

Context explained: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/info/methods#dvoa

[BowlesMovement]

13 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

it is a ridiculous stat, completely subjective and again you guys bring that silly stat up yet ignore all the drops and ignore the 2 bogus INts vs. GB he was credited with.

He's not ruined, he just needs ta;lent around him like pretty much all QBs not named Tom Brady.  he didn't take over the '85 Bears in 2009, he took over a team that couldn't get to the playoffs a year earlier w/ a HALL OF FAME QB against a much weaker sched and no Tom Brady around.

I disagree, at least temporarily ruined. 11 ad 12 destroyed him, they destroyed any confidence he had. Its going to take a lot to undo that damage. Not saying it can't happen, but its going to be more than just putting talent around him at this point. He developed a lot of really bad habbits, that don't go away easy.

[Bleedin Green]

6 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Per DVOA... QBs better than Sanchez in 2010:

Brady, Rivers, Manning, Rodgers, Ryan, Brees, Rothelisberger, Schaub, Freeman, Palmer, Flacco, Vick, Orton, Cassell, Manning, Hill, Henne, Young, Romo, Kitna, Garrard, Fitzpatrick, Stanton, Wallace, Collins, Stafford, McCoy.

So, that's 27 based on a stat that works exceptionally hard to consider the context of every play.  Not just looking for context that supports a specific argument or position.

Context explained: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/info/methods#dvoa

Whatevs... those numbers don't mean nothing.

Give ten more.  Can't do that, can you?!?

[Sperm Edwards]

18 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Per DVOA... QBs better than Sanchez in 2010:

Brady, Rivers, Manning, Rodgers, Ryan, Brees, Rothelisberger, Schaub, Freeman, Palmer, Flacco, Vick, Orton, Cassell, Manning, Hill, Henne, Young, Romo, Kitna, Garrard, Fitzpatrick, Stanton, Wallace, Collins, Stafford, McCoy.

So, that's 27 based on a stat that works exceptionally hard to consider the context of every play.  Not just looking for context that supports a specific argument or position.

Context explained: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/info/methods#dvoa

Oh yeah? Well that doesn't mesh with the eye of 1 person who chiefly watched his favorite team and its opponents. So there!

[Bleedin Green]

24 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Actually the incredible throw to Braylon was one, had another sensational TD throw to keller as he was getting mauled.  In the 2nd half Greene went down and we had no threat of a run game.  2 premier pass suhers coming at a rookie QB in a loud dome knowing the Jets couldn't run.  I wonder why he struggled in that second half?

Pitt controlled the clock all 1st half, he led us back to w/in a score on the road against an elite defense w/ plenty of time to play.  Our D failed us that night and in Indy but they really killed us at Pitt.

Wow, this is just sad.  Even when I gave Sanchez a pass and some partial credit for one game, you still manage to successfully ruin even that.  The incredible throw to Braylon?  The guy was wide open by like 10 yards.  So you're saying that in addition to that deep lob, he had one good throw... and this proves what exactly?  That he was one of many responsible for the Jets getting their asses kicked in that game?  Sounds about right.

I don't even know what argument you think you're making for that Steelers game.  It was the D's fault because the Jets were within 1 score near the end of the game?  As a gentle reminder, that one score difference was completely Sanchez's fault.  That has no validity as a defense of him, it's proof of well-deserved blame.  Again, the offense scored 17 points, and Sanchez handed the opposing team 7.  That means your argument is that the Jets D were responsible for holding the Steelers to 9 points or less in order for them to win.  If anything, that would suggest the Jets D deserves praise for the team staying in that game at all, given Sanchez doing nearly as much for the Steelers as he did for the Jets.

[Big Blocker]

16 hours ago, nyjunc said:

yep, going to 2 AFC Championship games(equaling the # we made from 1970-2008) really set us back

Someday you just might learn that football is a team sport, but I am not betting on that, and I am sorry to find you on this site.

[nyjunc]

31 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

It's my job to do your homework assignments? You're the one who wants to assert he was a top 10 QB, then you list the 20+ QBs who were worse. 

you are telling me how awful he was so who was better?

[nyjunc]

4 minutes ago, Big Blocker said:

Someday you just might learn that football is a team sport, but I am not betting on that, and I am sorry to find you on this site.

someday you may learn the slightest thing about this game.  go away if you don't like me, we don't need you ruining another board w/ your creepy obsession with 80 year old women.

[no psls]

On 4/25/2016 at 9:04 AM, CrazyCarl40 said:

My Facebook "On This Day" told me that my status this day seven years ago was "I think the Jets just made a huge mistake." Time has told us that I was mostly correct. Let's not have history repeat itself this year.

Two AFC championship games !!! Who has done better ?

[nyjunc]

5 minutes ago, Bleedin Green said:

Wow, this is just sad.  Even when I gave Sanchez a pass and some partial credit for one game, you still manage to successfully ruin even that.  The incredible throw to Braylon?  The guy was wide open by like 10 yards.  So you're saying that in addition to that deep lob, he had one good throw... and this proves what exactly?  That he was one of many responsible for the Jets getting their asses kicked in that game?  Sounds about right.

I don't even know what argument you think you're making for that Steelers game.  It was the D's fault because the Jets were within 1 score near the end of the game?  As a gentle reminder, that one score difference was completely Sanchez's fault.  That has no validity as a defense of him, it's proof of well-deserved blame.  Again, the offense scored 17 points, and Sanchez handed the opposing team 7.  That means your argument is that the Jets D were responsible for holding the Steelers to 9 points or less in order for them to win.  If anything, that would suggest the Jets D deserves praise for the team staying in that game at all, given Sanchez doing nearly as much for the Steelers as he did for the Jets.

you know he made a great fake then had Dwight Freeney charging hard at him and he hit Braylon in stride.  That was a GREAT throw.

The one score difference was completely Sanchez's fault? how so?  it was mark that allowed Pitt to control the clock all first half and run it down our throats.  Interesting.

By the way, the fumble for the TD we were deep in our territory in an impossible spot, he was sacked by an untouched defender and still probably should have been incomplete but it was a fumble.  If he doesn't fumble Pitt gets the ball near midfield and at least gets a FG to go up 20-0, after the TO he quickly led us downfield for a FG to pull w/in 21.  21 pt difference/20 pt difference it was basically the same but yeah it was all mark's fault Pitt dominated our D in the first half.

[legler82]

Just now, no psls said:

Two AFC championship games !!! Who has done better ?

But how did he do in fantasy football those years?

[nyjunc]

32 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Per DVOA... QBs better than Sanchez in 2010:

Brady, Rivers, Manning, Rodgers, Ryan, Brees, Rothelisberger, Schaub, Freeman, Palmer, Flacco, Vick, Orton, Cassell, Manning, Hill, Henne, Young, Romo, Kitna, Garrard, Fitzpatrick, Stanton, Wallace, Collins, Stafford, McCoy.

So, that's 27 based on a stat that works exceptionally hard to consider the context of every play.  Not just looking for context that supports a specific argument or position.

Context explained: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/info/methods#dvoa

ahhh advanced stats w/o context.

 

Rivers had the #1 D in football and couldn't make the playoffs in a weak division.  

Schuab led Houston to 6 wins

Freeman had better stats but was under no pressure and his team was never truly in the race.

Palmer led Cincy to 4 wins

Flacco and mark were similar

Cassell played in weak division, we saw what he could do at HOME in playoffs(in 18 playoff pass attempts had as many INts as Sanchez in 6 road playoff games)

orton, Hill, henne, Young, Kitna, Garrard, Fitz, Stanton, Wallace, Collins, Stafford, McCoy

Eli threw TWENTY FIVE INTs including FOUR in the biggest game of the season at GB that decided the final WC spot.

Romo played 6 games- that alone invalidates this asinine list.

 

 

 

[Big Blocker]

12 hours ago, legler82 said:

I here this a lot and it makes absolutely no sense to me.  

Okay, it was worse than the Robertson draft.

Trading up to the fifth pick in the draft, and getting an absolute sh*t qb the CS proceeded to stay all in on, getting worse not better, replaced by Greg McElroy in his fourth season, and cut after that.  So your fifth pick in the draft you traded up for was cut four years later.  Meanwhile the Jets had it so bad at Qb they even reached for that embarrassment known as Tim Tebow, making the Jets the laughing stock of the league, and Tanny's contract extension before 12 led to his getting fired, only to be replaced by Idzik, who was even worse.  And let's not forget that Sanchez was paid more than any other Jet in history under those contracts.

What is good in that scenario?  The Jets making the playoffs by backing in during 09 when Caldwell pulled his starters?  Losing a winnable game against Pitt the next year?  It was downhill ever since until last year.  Even now the Jets do not have a settled situation at Qb.

You go Qb with the fifth pick in the draft, I don't know how it could have realistically been any worse than what ensued.

[legler82]

2 minutes ago, Big Blocker said:

Okay, it was worse than the Robertson draft.

Trading up to the fifth pick in the draft, and getting an absolute sh*t qb the CS proceeded to stay all in on, getting worse not better, replaced by Greg McElroy in his fourth season, and cut after that.  So your fifth pick in the draft you traded up for was cut four years later.  Meanwhile the Jets had it so bad at Qb they even reached for that embarrassment known as Tim Tebow, making the Jets the laughing stock of the league, and Tanny's contract extension before 12 led to his getting fired, only to be replaced by Idzik, who was even worse.  And let's not forget that Sanchez was paid more than any other Jet in history under those contracts.

What is good in that scenario?  The Jets making the playoffs by backing in during 09 when Caldwell pulled his starters?  Losing a winnable game against Pitt the next year?  It was downhill ever since until last year.  Even now the Jets do not have a settled situation at Qb.

You go Qb with the fifth pick in the draft, I don't know how it could have realistically been any worse than what ensued.

Well that cleared things up.

[Sperm Edwards]

15 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

you are telling me how awful he was so who was better?

You are trying to weasel out of your assertion that he was a top 10 QB in 2010.

Literally nobody else believes this, so it is incumbent upon you to prove it. Then after that, you can prove to us that the moon landings didn't really occur.

[section314]

To be fair, this post really shouldn't be just about Sanchez. It really makes the point that when you draft a QB high in the draft with the idea he's the franchise guy, and you miss, it sets the franchise back 7-10 years. We are no closer to having a QB today than the day Farve left.

[nyjunc]

22 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

You are trying to weasel out of your assertion that he was a top 10 QB in 2010.

Literally nobody else believes this, so it is incumbent upon you to prove it. Then after that, you can prove to us that the moon landings didn't really occur.

I am not weaseling out of anything.  Outside of Brady, P. Manning, Vick, Ben, Rodgers, Ryan, Brees, etc... there really wasn't anyone better(I may have missed a QB or two but not many).  You guys just want #s, we saw where #s got us last year.

[nyjunc]

30 minutes ago, Big Blocker said:

Okay, it was worse than the Robertson draft.

Trading up to the fifth pick in the draft, and getting an absolute sh*t qb the CS proceeded to stay all in on, getting worse not better, replaced by Greg McElroy in his fourth season, and cut after that.  So your fifth pick in the draft you traded up for was cut four years later.  Meanwhile the Jets had it so bad at Qb they even reached for that embarrassment known as Tim Tebow, making the Jets the laughing stock of the league, and Tanny's contract extension before 12 led to his getting fired, only to be replaced by Idzik, who was even worse.  And let's not forget that Sanchez was paid more than any other Jet in history under those contracts.

What is good in that scenario?  The Jets making the playoffs by backing in during 09 when Caldwell pulled his starters?  Losing a winnable game against Pitt the next year?  It was downhill ever since until last year.  Even now the Jets do not have a settled situation at Qb.

You go Qb with the fifth pick in the draft, I don't know how it could have realistically been any worse than what ensued.

you are so clueless it's comical, we basically gave up a 2nd rd pick to move up to draft sanchez.  we exchanged our 1st rd picks, gave up 3 backup players and a 2nd rd pick so it was basically a 2nd rd pick to move from 17th to 5th.  That trade was a steal.

 

w/ DRob we gave exchnaged our 1st rd picks, threw in another 1st rd pick(which we got for losing our best WR) and gave them a 4th rd pick.  

[ZachEY]

52 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Oh yeah? Well that doesn't mesh with the eye of 1 person who chiefly watched his favorite team and its opponents. So there!

No argument there.  This does not pass the NYJUNC measure of "I'm right because I say I'm right."  But, outside of that highly regarded measure, all the other ones tell a different story.  We must remember to compartmentalize.

[nyjunc]

15 minutes ago, section314 said:

To be fair, this post really shouldn't be just about Sanchez. It really makes the point that when you draft a QB high in the draft with the idea he's the franchise guy, and you miss, it sets the franchise back 7-10 years. We are no closer to having a QB today than the day Farve left.

w/ similar team and the great Brett Favre w/ no Tom Brady and weakest sched in memory we couldn't make the playoffs.  the guy we gave away when we got Brett took over a team that was 1-15 in 2007 and led them to 11 wins and a div title and we had double the talent and couldn't even make the playoffs yet the next 2 seasons we were playing for the right to represent the AFC in the Super Bowl.  Really set us back.

 

 

[ZachEY]

37 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

ahhh advanced stats w/o context.

 

Rivers had the #1 D in football and couldn't make the playoffs in a weak division.  

Schuab led Houston to 6 wins

Freeman had better stats but was under no pressure and his team was never truly in the race.

Palmer led Cincy to 4 wins

Flacco and mark were similar

Cassell played in weak division, we saw what he could do at HOME in playoffs(in 18 playoff pass attempts had as many INts as Sanchez in 6 road playoff games)

orton, Hill, henne, Young, Kitna, Garrard, Fitz, Stanton, Wallace, Collins, Stafford, McCoy

Eli threw TWENTY FIVE INTs including FOUR in the biggest game of the season at GB that decided the final WC spot.

Romo played 6 games- that alone invalidates this asinine list.

 

 

 

Advanced stats provide context.

You do not.

[nyjunc]

Just now, gEYno said:

Advanced stats provide context.

You do not.

no they don't, when they list Romo who was 1-5 at the time and played only 6 games ahead of a guy w/ 5 late game comebacks that helped his team reach title game that invalidates all the info.  Eli throws 25 INTs and throws away his teams season but he was better based on this "stats".  It's all nonsense, just watch football.  these stats and fantasy football have ruined the game b/c people think if you don't have great fantasy #s then you stink.

[Sperm Edwards]

5 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

I am not weaseling out of anything.  Outside of Brady, P. Manning, Vick, Ben, Rodgers, Ryan, Brees, etc... there really wasn't anyone better(I may have missed a QB or two but not many).  You guys just want #s, we saw where #s got us last year.

No. That is a cop-out. You said he was top 10. List the QBs who you think were worse, that would propel him to top 10.

EY made a list of QBs who were better by a measurement. If you think the list is flawed, do tell which ones on that list were worse than Sanchez.

[nyjunc]

1 minute ago, Sperm Edwards said:

No. That is a cop-out. You said he was top 10. List the QBs who you think were worse, that would propel him to top 10.

EY made a list of QBs who were better by a measurement. If you think the list is flawed, do tell which ones on that list were worse than Sanchez.

I just gave you a list and I already went through the guys from that flawed list.  

[ZachEY]

4 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

no they don't, when they list Romo who was 1-5 at the time and played only 6 games ahead of a guy w/ 5 late game comebacks that helped his team reach title game that invalidates all the info.  Eli throws 25 INTs and throws away his teams season but he was better based on this "stats".  It's all nonsense, just watch football.  these stats and fantasy football have ruined the game b/c people think if you don't have great fantasy #s then you stink.

Actually, Advanced Stats and Fantasy Football have nothing to do with one another.  That you don't understand that isn't our burden.