Seven Years Ago Today

[nyjunc]

9 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Drafting Sanchez wasn't the big mistake, though there are certainly some, like @Miss Lonelyhearts who made this case strongly.  The mistake that crushed us was that miserable Tannenbaum given extension.  

wrong again.  the extension was not bad at all, what killed us was not surrounding him w/ talent.  

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

oh the Bal game was all his fault not allowing the following 3rd and longs:

3rd and 9

3rd and 13

3rd and 28

3rd and 9

3rd and 9

3rd and 10

3rd and 5

3rd and 10

3rd and 10

not to mentioned Rex always played scared against Baltimore, mark only passed the ball 21 times.

 

We never faced 3rd and 28. Wait, hang on.

Did you just cherry-pick BALTIMORE'S 3rd & long situations and try to pass them off as 3rd downs SANCHEZ had to convert?

LOL. Nice try.

[nyjunc]

3 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

We never faced 3rd and 28. Wait, hang on.

Did you just cherry-pick BALTIMORE'S 3rd & long situations and try to pass them off as 3rd downs SANCHEZ had to convert?

LOL. Nice try.

I was talking about our defense not about our offense,  it was pretty clear in my posts.  Our D could not get off the field that night and allowed Bal to control the clock for 40 mins, the D was just as much a culprit as the QB and offense were.  

[Sperm Edwards]

17 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

wrong again.  the extension was not bad at all, what killed us was not surrounding him w/ talent.  

The makeup sex extension was the reason we passed on Wilson a month later. It was tragic. 

You can finish up. The guy hasn't been a Jets QB for years. Screw him. I hope he fails everyplace he goes just like he failed in Philadelphia. Despite a bargain contract the best offer the Eagles got was a conditional 7th rounder in 2017. As in, he wasn't even worth the last trade-able pick in this draft, which the Broncos possessed as the SB champs. It would be the value of an 8th round pick this year if they had that low of a draft round anymore.

Eff. Him. 

[nyjunc]

Just now, Sperm Edwards said:

The makeup sex extension was the reason we passed on Wilson a month later. It was tragic. 

You can finish up. The guy hasn't been a Jets QB for years. Screw him. I hope he fails everyplace he goes just like he failed in Philadelphia. Despite a bargain contract the best offer the Eagles got was a conditional 7th rounder in 2017. As in, he wasn't even worth the last trade-able pick in this draft, which the Broncos possessed as the SB champs. It would be the value of an 8th round pick this year if they had that low of a draft round anymore.

Eff. Him. 

No it wasn't, please let's not make things up now.  the extension was clear indication that he wasn't sold on him longterm or he wouldn't have structured it w/ an easy out.

his contract isn't a bargain for a good backup QB and everyone knew he was going to be released eventually so why give up the pick?  notice how many picks the guy in Houston was able to get?

 

yes, eff the guy that helped us get closer to a SB than any Jets QB since Namath but let's celebrate stats!

[ZachEY]

24 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.  when you see Aaron Rodgers play like that I would think it did that day.  

Certainly it may have mattered on that day.  That's exactly the point though.  If you're looking for an excuse for why Sanchez is nearly in the basement of every objective, both standard and advanced, you can find one.  You could do that about most anyone you wanted to invest the time into.  The reason why stats, standard and much more so advanced, work in the long run is because of averages.  Over time, all QBs face bad weather.  Over time, they all get lucky bounces.  These objective measures are called such because they are truly objective.  You are laughably biased because you only apply the metrics you want, when you want, to the players or teams you want.  Then, you basically just sit back and call yourself right.  But, I think it's important you realize that a fundamental lack of understanding of math or how sample sizes work, doesn't make you a smarter fan, it just makes you biased.  Which is fine.  Be biased.  But don't try to enter into conversations that necessitate objectivity.

[ZachEY]

28 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

wrong again.  the extension was not bad at all, what killed us was not surrounding him w/ talent.  

I doubt very much that even Mike Tannenbaum would agree with you at this point.

And, do you think the extension may have played a role in the inability to surround him with talent?

[Sperm Edwards]

Just now, nyjunc said:

No it wasn't, please let's not make things up now.  the extension was clear indication that he wasn't sold on him longterm or he wouldn't have structured it w/ an easy out.

his contract isn't a bargain for a good backup QB and everyone knew he was going to be released eventually so why give up the pick?  notice how many picks the guy in Houston was able to get?

 

yes, eff the guy that helped us get closer to a SB than any Jets QB since Namath but let's celebrate stats!

lol

Tannenbaum gave him that extension because he thought he was buying low after the miserable ending to the 2011 season and whiffing on Peyton Manning, and felt this was a good time to lock him up for the next 5 seasons. Pretty sure that was roughly what he said at the time. That it also worked out well to ease the insulted Sanchez for talking to Peyton in the first place only iced the cake.

Wilson was high on their head scout's board but Tannenbaum just locked up Sanchez for the next 5 seasons, with the upcoming 2 seasons guaranteed. He wasn't touching a QB that early because of that contract no matter how much his head scout was bananas for him.

[nyjunc]

3 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Certainly it may have mattered on that day.  That's exactly the point though.  If you're looking for an excuse for why Sanchez is nearly in the basement of every objective, both standard and advanced, you can find one.  You could do that about most anyone you wanted to invest the time into.  The reason why stats, standard and much more so advanced, work in the long run is because of averages.  Over time, all QBs face bad weather.  Over time, they all get lucky bounces.  These objective measures are called such because they are truly objective.  You are laughably biased because you only apply the metrics you want, when you want, to the players or teams you want.  Then, you basically just sit back and call yourself right.  But, I think it's important you realize that a fundamental lack of understanding of math or how sample sizes work, doesn't make you a smarter fan, it just makes you biased.  Which is fine.  Be biased.  But don't try to enter into conversations that necessitate objectivity.

I am not making excuses for his career just for a game here or there.  he's obviously not a top QB overall, I have never said that.  these are not objective measures b/c each game and each situation are different.  They reward players for fantasy #s.  QB throws 3 TDs wehn trailing by 30 his #s look good, I'll take the guy w/ lesser #s who makes plays to help his team win.

1 minute ago, gEYno said:

I doubt very much that even Mike Tannenbaum would agree with you at this point.

And, do you think the extension may have played a role in the inability to surround him with talent?

No, they were already inhibited w/ the cap.  they overpiad for a lot of players and traded away picks so they were going to have to bite the bullet in 2012 but relief was on the way w/ simple cuts and we saw how quickly we went from over the cap to a ton of cap space w/ Idzik.

Just now, Sperm Edwards said:

lol

Tannenbaum gave him that extension because he thought he was buying low after the miserable ending to the 2011 season and whiffing on Peyton Manning, and felt this was a good time to lock him up for the next 5 seasons. Pretty sure that was roughly what he said at the time. That it also worked out well to ease the insulted Sanchez for talking to Peyton in the first place only iced the cake.

Wilson was high on their head scout's board but Tannenbaum just locked up Sanchez for the next 5 seasons, with the upcoming 2 seasons guaranteed. He wasn't touching a QB that early because of that contract no matter how much his head scout was bananas for him.

he didn't whiff on manning, he put in a phonecall as any GM should do if they don't have a top QB.  you act like they spent months and months devising a scheme to get him here and Peyton just decided at the last moment to go somewhere else.  They never even made an offer.

 

The head scout that every Jet fan bashes for everything that went wrong(even though things mostly went right) is now the source?  you don't think in every draft there are players scouts recommend to GMs that don't get picked?  Come on sperm, you are better than this.

[Sperm Edwards]

23 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

he didn't whiff on manning, he put in a phonecall as any GM should do if they don't have a top QB.  you act like they spent months and months devising a scheme to get him here and Peyton just decided at the last moment to go somewhere else.  They never even made an offer.

The head scout that every Jet fan bashes for everything that went wrong(even though things mostly went right) is now the source?  you don't think in every draft there are players scouts recommend to GMs that don't get picked?  Come on sperm, you are better than this.

He whiffed on Manning as in, if Manning would have signed with us we'd have rightly given him a contract and dumped Sanchez. We called him. He turned us down. That is whiffing.

Who cares about other Bradway shortcomings? This was one that he famously went bananas over, and give him credit for being right. But the deal was already done: Sanchez was locked up on a nearly $60M extension, and therefore Tannenbaum - particularly after also adding Tebow - wasn't touching a QB that early. Even Tannenbaum admitted he screwed up and in so many words acknowledged that's why he was fired. Then he went and did the same thing in Miami because he didn't want to wait until a Matt Ryan contract situation ensued.

We should have dumped Sanchez when he had $0 guaranteed money remaining in March of 2012. But this must have looked like the perfect solution for Tannenbaum: the team needed instant cap room; Mark was feeling lowly after the 2011 season and the desire to dump him for Peyton Manning (if he'd have had us), and the team decided to show confidence in him by extending him (just like they do with lame duck HC's). That Tannenbaum could extend him for so little (compared to some other starting QB contracts), and clear up some instant cap room, was too enticing an opportunity. He didn't want to wait until Sanchez had a bounce back season, after which his demands would have been much higher, he didn't want to be hampered from picking up any FAs that offseason, and he didn't want to set the team's cap right in a responsible manner. He's Trader Mike, by God, and Trader Mike makes the big splashes!

He was a fool, and the extension led to the also acquired "competition" in the name of Tim Tebow. If you think he was touching ANY QB in the 2nd round, no matter what his top scout said, you're delusional. It would be a de facto admission that he messed up big time a month earlier.

[nyjunc]

3 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

He whiffed on Manning as in, if Manning would have signed with us we'd have rightly given him a contract and dumped Sanchez. We called him. He turned us down. That is whiffing.

Who cares about other Bradway shortcomings? This was one that he famously went bananas over, and give him credit for being right. But the deal was already done: Sanchez was locked up on a nearly $60M extension, and therefore Tannenbaum - particularly after also adding Tebow - wasn't touching a QB that early. Even Tannenbaum admitted he screwed up and in so many words acknowledged that's why he was fired. Then he went and did the same thing in Miami because he didn't want to wait until a Matt Ryan contract situation ensued.

We should have dumped Sanchez when he had $0 guaranteed money remaining in March of 2012. But this must have looked like the perfect solution for Tannenbaum: the team needed instant cap room; Mark was feeling lowly after the 2011 season and the desire to dump him for Peyton Manning (if he'd have had us), and the team decided to show confidence in him by extending him (just like they do with lame duck HC's). That Tannenbaum could extend him for so little (compared to some other starting QB contracts), and clear up some instant cap room, was too enticing an opportunity. He didn't want to wait until Sanchez had a bounce back season, after which his demands would have been much higher, he didn't want to be hampered from picking up any FAs that offseason, and he didn't want to set the team's cap right in a responsible manner. He's Trader Mike, by God, and Trader Mike makes the big splashes!

He was a fool, and the extension led to the also acquired "competition" in the name of Tim Tebow. If you think he was touching ANY QB in the 2nd round, no matter what his top scout said, you're delusional. It would be a de facto admission that he messed up big time a month earlier.

we had cap issues at that time as well, we would have had to make major changes to fit him under the cap.  he made a call, he don't go full court press to get him.

 

who knows what happened draft day 2012 but I have a very hard time believing Tannenbaum didn't take Wilson b/c of the contract which he just gave Sanchez.  there are rumblings all over the place Mike will take a QB this year for Miami and he gave Tannehill a similar deal that he gave Mark.

he screwed up by allowing all the offensive talent to leave, that is what screwed us and sent us down a bad path.  he thought he'd have another offseason but we foolishly fired him.

There isn't a GM alive who would have dumped Mark in March of 2012, 3 seasons, 2 title games, never below .500, just had his best statistical year w/ average talent around him.  stop it.

Tebow was never brought here to compete w/ Mark, he was brought here to fill Brad Smith's role as well as be a backup QB.

[Sperm Edwards]

1 minute ago, nyjunc said:

we had cap issues at that time as well, we would have had to make major changes to fit him under the cap.  he made a call, he don't go full court press to get him.

 

who knows what happened draft day 2012 but I have a very hard time believing Tannenbaum didn't take Wilson b/c of the contract which he just gave Sanchez.  there are rumblings all over the place Mike will take a QB this year for Miami and he gave Tannehill a similar deal that he gave Mark.

he screwed up by allowing all the offensive talent to leave, that is what screwed us and sent us down a bad path.  he thought he'd have another offseason but we foolishly fired him.

There isn't a GM alive who would have dumped Mark in March of 2012, 3 seasons, 2 title games, never below .500, just had his best statistical year w/ average talent around him.  stop it.

Tebow was never brought here to compete w/ Mark, he was brought here to fill Brad Smith's role as well as be a backup QB.

Cut Sanchez + don't trade for Tebow = cap issues disappear. 

What he should have done is told him to take a cap hit or take a hike. He was getting worse, not better.

Even Tannenbaum - the one who gave Sanchez the extension several weeks later - was badmouthing Sanchez's 2011 season. You are touting 2011 now as some great success because of gross stat totals you like to wave off as meaningless and insignificant when they're attributed to non-Sanchez QBs. He sucked in 2011.

[nyjunc]

13 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Cut Sanchez + don't trade for Tebow = cap issues disappear. 

What he should have done is told him to take a cap hit or take a hike. He was getting worse, not better.

Even Tannenbaum - the one who gave Sanchez the extension several weeks later - was badmouthing Sanchez's 2011 season. You are touting 2011 now as some great success because of gross stat totals you like to wave off as meaningless and insignificant when they're attributed to non-Sanchez QBs. He sucked in 2011.

#s wise he improved in 2011 and had his best season amid turmoil w/ the garbage brought in around him where 3 of his 5 main weapons entering that season were out of football in 2012.

you need to read what I write, nowhere have I "touted" Sanchez's 2011 season as some great success.  I said he put up his best #s but wasn't anywhere near as good as 2010.

He didn't suck in 2011 but he wasn't really good, he was mediocre in 2011.

[Bleedin Green]

Can we all just agree that he was awful in 2012 (regardless of whatever reasons make it not his fault)?

[Mogglez]

On 4/25/2016 at 10:07 AM, Bleedin Green said:

As much as I was glad to see Sanchez kicked to the curb when he was, this is still actually one of the few moves I really don't hold against the Jets that much.  On a relative scale, they gave up next to nothing to make the move up that they did, and took a real shot at a QB for the first time in ages, after years and years of hoping their QB wouldn't get hurt.  In the end, it didn't work out, so the team doesn't deserve to get praised for it (especially when you consider that idiotic second contract Sanchez was given), but given the relatively low cost, it was still a risk well worth taking.

Pretty much this.  It made total sense at the time to go up and get Mark.  

I have the same feelings this year regarding Lynch (since the other two are going 1 & 2 it's pointless to talk about them).  If Maccagnan believes in a guy then, unless he's trading the farm, I'd rather see them take that chance on him instead of getting gun-shy because they're afraid it may not work out.

[nyjunc]

Just now, Bleedin Green said:

Can we all just agree that he was awful in 2012 (regardless of whatever reasons make it not his fault)?

There isn't anyone who would disagree that he was awful in 2012.  he was as bad as could be in 2012.

[Snell41]

Sanchez failed partially because they continuously played round robin with his receivers.  And by partially I'd say that was 10% of his failure.  The 90% is his attitude.  Not that he had a bad attitude per se, just that you could tell from his offensive meetings all he was about was screwing around and goofing off.  He was a clown, and it showed on the field. 

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

#s wise he improved in 2011 and had his best season amid turmoil w/ the garbage brought in around him where 3 of his 5 main weapons entering that season were out of football in 2012.

you need to read what I write, nowhere have I "touted" Sanchez's 2011 season as some great success.  I said he put up his best #s but wasn't anywhere near as good as 2010.

He didn't suck in 2011 but he wasn't really good, he was mediocre in 2011.

You have been painstakingly arguing that numbers don't matter. Now when you want to argue it matters for Sanchez it matters. Please don't start again with the wepponz argument. The "out of football" reasons for all 3 were due to injuries, so that is a ridiculous point to make. 

My point is I don't care if they were nominally his "best numbers" (really, his highest total numbers) in 2011 because his prior numbers were horrid. If some kid gets a 75 on a test it still sucks, and it doesn't warm my heart to say, "Well it's better than the 65 he got on the prior one." He blew the 2011 season, and you love crediting him with wins we got despite his best efforts to give away (like week 1 vs Dallas). 

He sucked and we should have either dumped him or at best let him play out that season with no extension, while drafting his replacement should he not dramatically improve. It was a cluster*ck mess to extend him, bypass on any backup plan, and lock us into him for 2 more seasons of garbage or would-be garbage. The day he was extended was outright depressing.

If you put half as much excuse-making into other QBs as you do for Sanchez, you'd be rationalizing that about 25 different players are all top 10 QBs.

[nyjunc]

3 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

You have been painstakingly arguing that numbers don't matter. Now when you want to argue it matters for Sanchez it matters. Please don't start again with the wepponz argument. The "out of football" reasons for all 3 were due to injuries, so that is a ridiculous point to make. 

My point is I don't care if they were nominally his "best numbers" (really, his highest total numbers) in 2011 because his prior numbers were horrid. If some kid gets a 75 on a test it still sucks, and it doesn't warm my heart to say, "Well it's better than the 65 he got on the prior one." He blew the 2011 season, and you love crediting him with wins we got despite his best efforts to give away (like week 1 vs Dallas). 

He sucked and we should have either dumped him or at best let him play out that season with no extension, while drafting his replacement should he not dramatically improve. It was a cluster*ck mess to extend him, bypass on any backup plan, and lock us into him for 2 more seasons of garbage or would-be garbage. The day he was extended was outright depressing.

If you put half as much excuse-making into other QBs as you do for Sanchez, you'd be rationalizing that about 25 different players are all top 10 QBs.

You must have me confused w/ someone else.  I have stated over and over and over again that he was top 10 good in 2010 and that despite his #s going way up in 2011 he was nowhere near as good.

No one is giving up on a QB after 3 years that they traded up to get and helped them reach 2 title games in 3 years.

I am sure I can make good cases for any QB but Mark was good for us- certainly didn't fold in big spots the way Fitz has or the way favre did for us.

[ZachEY]

2 hours ago, nyjunc said:

these are not objective measures b/c each game and each situation are different.  They reward players for fantasy #s.  QB throws 3 TDs wehn trailing by 30 his #s look good, I'll take the guy w/ lesser #s who makes plays to help his team win.

Actually no.  This is incorrect.  Advanced stats do in fact control for the situation.  That's the whole point.

[Mainejet]

On ‎4‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 10:43 AM, nyjunc said:

you act like we had all time great talent, we had top 10 talent.  Nothing incredible, we were more talented last year and didn't make the playoffs.

BETTER talent than we had last season and just to go down through all of the better players:

Fitzpatrick>Sanchez Fitz is clearly the better QB in his lone season than Sanchez ever was.

Richardson>Bohanon Tony Richardson was what? A 10 time pro bowler over a 17 year career? Not even close.

2009 OL> 2015 OL The OL we had in 2009 and 2010 was an absolute beast. They entered the zone when they got into the playoffs. They were f*cking road graders. They routinely established LOS SUPREMACY. The 2015 OL was shaky at best. Not even close.

Edwards/Holmes<Marshall/Decker This is a slight edge to the 2015 group only because they have a much better QB throwing them the ball. Sanchez was horrible and could not build chemistry with any WR on the team. I won't even mention Jerricho Cotchery who is miles better than any of the trash we had besides Marshall and Decker.

Dustin Keller> Jeff Cumberland Dustin Keller in 2010 caught 55 passes for 687 yards. The entire f*cking Jets group of pathetic TE's in 2015 caught what? 14 passes? Not even close. 

So to say the Jets 2015 roster was more talented is a complete crock of sh*t. In 2009 and 2010 we had a SUPER BOWL roster without a QB. The 2015 roster has an aging defense and a fledgling offense. They are middle of the road to below average in comparison...........

[nyjunc]

7 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Actually no.  This is incorrect.  Advanced stats do in fact control for the situation.  That's the whole point.

they do a better job than old fashioned stats but they still are out of context stats.

1 minute ago, Mainejet said:

BETTER talent than we had last season and just to go down through all of the better players:

Fitzpatrick>Sanchez Fitz is clearly the better QB in his lone season than Sanchez ever was.

Richardson>Bohanon Tony Richardson was what? A 10 time pro bowler over a 17 year career? Not even close.

2009 OL> 2015 OL The OL we had in 2009 and 2010 was an absolute beast. They entered the zone when they got into the playoffs. They were f*cking road graders. They routinely established LOS SUPREMACY. The 2015 OL was shaky at best. Not even close.

Edwards/Holmes<Marshall/Decker This is a slight edge to the 2015 group only because they have a much better QB throwing them the ball. Sanchez was horrible and could not build chemistry with any WR on the team. I won't even mention Jerricho Cotchery who is miles better than any of the trash we had besides Marshall and Decker.

Dustin Keller> Jeff Cumberland Dustin Keller in 2010 caught 55 passes for 687 yards. The entire f*cking Jets group of pathetic TE's in 2015 caught what? 14 passes? Not even close. 

So to say the Jets 2015 roster was more talented is a complete crock of sh*t. In 2009 and 2010 we had a SUPER BOWL roster without a QB. The 2015 roster has an aging defense and a fledgling offense. They are middle of the road to below average in comparison...........

Sanchez 2010 was far better than Fitz 2015 but I will play along.

Richardson was barely on the team in 2010 and I love Tony but our main RBs averaged  4.12 YPC, our main RBs in 2015 4.36

2009 OL was better, 2010 was similar.

Remember we acquired Marshall 5 games into Mark's rookie season and he had more drops than catches that year.  he was excellent in 2010(not Marshall like but still really good) but Holmes missed 4 games in 2010 and Cotch was banged up missing time.  2015 is a HUGE edge at WR over 2009 or 2010.

we didn't use TEs this year so obviously Keller gets the nod.

Don't forget going into 2009 our best D player was kris jenkins and we lost him for the year early in the season.  In 2010 leonhard wasn't our best player but was vital and we lost him for the year. the DL this year was head and shoulders better, the secondaries similar outside of revis who was still really good this year just not all time great like 2009 or 2010(2010 when he got healthy, remember he wasn't healthy the first half of the season)

The weapons on the 2015 team were better than either 2009 or 2010, the talent on D was very similar.  In 2009 and 2010 we made title games, in 2011 despite a creampuff sched we couldn't even make the playoffs.

[Sperm Edwards]

32 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

You must have me confused w/ someone else.  I have stated over and over and over again that he was top 10 good in 2010 and that despite his #s going way up in 2011 he was nowhere near as good.

No one is giving up on a QB after 3 years that they traded up to get and helped them reach 2 title games in 3 years.

I am sure I can make good cases for any QB but Mark was good for us- certainly didn't fold in big spots the way Fitz has or the way favre did for us.

I would have thought no one gives an extension to a QB who just melted and ended the team's season in year 3, after being at or among the NFL's worst passers his 2 prior seasons no matter where the team carried him. Yet it happened. 

And saying he didn't fold in big spots for us is just absurd, right when we're talking about his 2011 season. Even games he ended up with generally favorable stats - like that Buffalo game - he was horrible & looked like he didn't belong in the NFL. Yes, the 4 TD game. Then there was the Tebow game. And the Dallas game. He looked like trash against Washington. And the Giants. And Miami (where he was sulking away from the rest of the team). And the Baltimore game, where he fumbled 4x, gave up two fumble-sixes and a pick 6, where 14 of our 17 points came when Sanchez was off the field outright, and we lost 34-17 despite manhandling Joe Flacco. Or any number of other games in years before or after, where he folded when we needed him. He was just not a good QB.

A QB who is a true asset to the team (like you imagine him to be) is one who often shows up despite adversity, not one who needs everything else to click from everyone else around him, so people like you can then say "HE took them to" whatever game or win. With a meh or worse defense, Sanchez is no more than a physically talented loser. 

[legler82]

1 hour ago, Snell41 said:

Sanchez failed partially because they continuously played round robin with his receivers.  And by partially I'd say that was 10% of his failure.  The 90% is his attitude.  Not that he had a bad attitude per se, just that you could tell from his offensive meetings all he was about was screwing around and goofing off.  He was a clown, and it showed on the field. 

I'm a Sanchez guy, by that I mean I don't hate him and blame every thing negative that's happen to this team since 2009 on him like so many.  As a Sanchez guy I don't buy and never use the surrounding talent argument.  A very good QB can play well with poor surrounding talent (see Mariota).  He failed here mainly because he did not meet the expectations we had for a QB picked top 5 overall.  Other contributing factors were poor offensive coaching and schematic fits as well as the national embarrassment of the butt-fumble.  All that said, I do believe he is a guy we could win with and he's proven as much; that's about the one thing I totally agree with Junc.  In this day and age of fantasy football just being good enough to win with simply not enough especially when said player was a 1st round pick.  There was a time when many thought anyone but Sanchez would be fine, Geno has pretty much dispelled that.

On a side note, Sanchez is finally in the best situation for him to realize the best version of himself.  He's in the perfect system for his skill set, has good surrounding offensive talent, a great defense and he is healthy.  Given the opportunity If he can't put up what most fans would deem as "success" #s (i.e., 60+ CMP%, 3500 Yards, 30+/- TDs, >15 INTs…etc.), then even I will have to accept that he truly does suck.

[Mainejet]

1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

they do a better job than old fashioned stats but they still are out of context stats.

Sanchez 2010 was far better than Fitz 2015 but I will play along.

Richardson was barely on the team in 2010 and I love Tony but our main RBs averaged  4.12 YPC, our main RBs in 2015 4.36

2009 OL was better, 2010 was similar.

Remember we acquired Marshall 5 games into Mark's rookie season and he had more drops than catches that year.  he was excellent in 2010(not Marshall like but still really good) but Holmes missed 4 games in 2010 and Cotch was banged up missing time.  2015 is a HUGE edge at WR over 2009 or 2010.

we didn't use TEs this year so obviously Keller gets the nod.

Don't forget going into 2009 our best D player was kris jenkins and we lost him for the year early in the season.  In 2010 leonhard wasn't our best player but was vital and we lost him for the year. the DL this year was head and shoulders better, the secondaries similar outside of revis who was still really good this year just not all time great like 2009 or 2010(2010 when he got healthy, remember he wasn't healthy the first half of the season)

The weapons on the 2015 team were better than either 2009 or 2010, the talent on D was very similar.  In 2009 and 2010 we made title games, in 2011 despite a creampuff sched we couldn't even make the playoffs.

In other words, no matter how much fact is thrown in your face, you'll never be wrong, right?

2010 Sanchez was better than 2015 Fitz?!

Sanchez completion percentage was 54.8%, Fitz was 59.6%

Sanchez threw for 3291 yards in 2010 in 16 games Fitz threw for 3905 yards in essentially 15 games.

Sanchez threw 17 TD as compared to 13 interceptions Fitz had 31 TD and 15 interceptions

Now very clearly this indicates that Fitz is a FAR better QB than Sanchez ever was in a Jet uniform, but don't let facts get in the way of your beliefs.

Richardson BARELY on the team as you say is still MILES better than Bohanon. To claim anything otherwise is beyond absurd.

And we didn't acquire Marshall in 2009, we acquired Braylon Edwards and he caught far more than he dropped. In fact, he came up big in huge spots like the 2009 AFc Championship an 80 yard TD catch, or 2010 where he caught a long pass from Sanchez and put the Jets in position to kick a FG and beat manning in Indy, or dragging two defenders into the end zone in NE the following week.

But once again, don't let facts get in the way of your claims.

[nyjunc]

9 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I would have thought no one gives an extension to a QB who just melted and ended the team's season in year 3, after being at or among the NFL's worst passers his 2 prior seasons no matter where the team carried him. Yet it happened. 

And saying he didn't fold in big spots for us is just absurd, right when we're talking about his 2011 season. Even games he ended up with generally favorable stats - like that Buffalo game - he was horrible & looked like he didn't belong in the NFL. Yes, the 4 TD game. Then there was the Tebow game. And the Dallas game. He looked like trash against Washington. And the Giants. And Miami (where he was sulking away from the rest of the team). And the Baltimore game, where he fumbled 4x, gave up two fumble-sixes and a pick 6, where 14 of our 17 points came when Sanchez was off the field outright, and we lost 34-17 despite manhandling Joe Flacco. Or any number of other games in years before or after, where he folded when we needed him. He was just not a good QB.

A QB who is a true asset to the team (like you imagine him to be) is one who often shows up despite adversity, not one who needs everything else to click from everyone else around him, so people like you can then say "HE took them to" whatever game or win. With a meh or worse defense, Sanchez is no more than a physically talented loser. 

oh HE ended the season, it wasn't the D who got torched in philly then changed the game and seasons for both the jets and Giants by allowing a 99 yd TD.  It was Sanchez.  got it.

he was bad against Dallas and washington?  he wasn't great that day against Buf but did lead a late game winning TD.

we were dead against Miami but still had a 2nd half lead until the D allowed a 13 min drive to drain whatever juice they had left in that team.

you don't remember the circumstances of that Baltimore game in 2011, huh?

outside of a few guys who "takes" their team anywhere? eli won 2 SBs on the back of his Ds, Peyton was carried to 2 SB titles, Ben was awful in his first SB etc...

2 minutes ago, Mainejet said:

In other words, no matter how much fact is thrown in your face, you'll never be wrong, right?

2010 Sanchez was better than 2015 Fitz?!

Sanchez completion percentage was 54.8%, Fitz was 59.6%

Sanchez threw for 3291 yards in 2010 in 16 games Fitz threw for 3905 yards in essentially 15 games.

Sanchez threw 17 TD as compared to 13 interceptions Fitz had 31 TD and 15 interceptions

Now very clearly this indicates that Fitz is a FAR better QB than Sanchez ever was in a Jet uniform, but don't let facts get in the way of your beliefs.

Richardson BARELY on the team as you say is still MILES better than Bohanon. To claim anything otherwise is beyond absurd.

And we didn't acquire Marshall in 2009, we acquired Braylon Edwards and he caught far more than he dropped. In fact, he came up big in huge spots like the 2009 AFc Championship an 80 yard TD catch, or 2010 where he caught a long pass from Sanchez and put the Jets in position to kick a FG and beat manning in Indy, or dragging two defenders into the end zone in NE the following week.

But once again, don't let facts get in the way of your claims.

you can say what you want, I don't have to agree with it.  give me all the meaning;less fantasy #s you want, what did Fitz do in week 17 against a dead Bills team?  don't forget he had MUCH more talent to throw to in a QB friendly system. 

I don't want to debate Tony and bohanon, it's silly.

 

Obviously you know I meant Braylon not Marshall.  Braylon is one of my favorites, he's not half the player Marshall is and while he had that catch in the 2009 title game he also dropped a 50 yd TD vs. Cincy 2 weeks earlier and dropped a million balls that season.  in 2010 he was excellent and didn't drop many but he still wasn't Brandon Marshall.  So Mark gets no credit for the pass to Braylon in the 2010 WC game? it wasn't a long pass by the way, it was less than 20 yds but a perfect throw and catch to set up a chip shot for the win.  Braylon was really good in 2010, he wasn't Brandon marshall who almost dragged us to the playoffs.

 

 

[Mainejet]

1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

you can say what you want, I don't have to agree with it.  give me all the meaning;less fantasy #s you want, what did Fitz do in week 17 against a dead Bills team?  don't forget he had MUCH more talent to throw to in a QB friendly system. 

I certainly won't agree with it. It's nonsensical and illogical.

I don't want to debate Tony and bohanon, it's silly.

Yes, it is VERY silly to even so much as imply Bohanon is anywhere near the kind of player Tony Richardson was.

Obviously you know I meant Braylon not Marshall.  Braylon is one of my favorites, he's not half the player Marshall is and while he had that catch in the 2009 title game he also dropped a 50 yd TD vs. Cincy 2 weeks earlier and dropped a million balls that season.  in 2010 he was excellent and didn't drop many but he still wasn't Brandon Marshall.  So Mark gets no credit for the pass to Braylon in the 2010 WC game? it wasn't a long pass by the way, it was less than 20 yds but a perfect throw and catch to set up a chip shot for the win.  Braylon was really good in 2010, he wasn't Brandon marshall who almost dragged us to the playoffs.

And I agree that Marshall is a lot better than Edwards, but Edwards came up HUGE for this team in big spots. Has Marshall even seen a big spot with the Jets????

So once again, I firmly assert that the 2010 Jets were WAY better than the 2015 roster, Sanchez had all of that talent at his disposal, and yet he still sucked a fat one. He was a terrible QB and a turnover machine, pure and simple.

 

 

 

 

 

[Larz]

can you imagine the thread if sanchez got caught cheating ?

[nyjunc]

Tony Richardson was at the end of the line, if he was not a respected vet he wouldn't have made the team in 2010.  do we forget they cut him then decided to bring him back?  so it is a silly point to argue either way.  his job was to block, you claim the OL was much better in 2010 then someone had to help the Rbs have a higher YPC, right?

 

marshall's big spot was week 17 at Buffalo, he nearly dragged us to the playoffs but the QB, among others, wouldn't let him.

 

Sanchez had enough talent to win back then and he helped us reach 2 title games, Fitz had enough this year and couldn't help us get to the playoffs.  That's been the point all along

[Sperm Edwards]

15 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

oh HE ended the season, it wasn't the D who got torched in philly then changed the game and seasons for both the jets and Giants by allowing a 99 yd TD.  It was Sanchez.  got it.

he was bad against Dallas and washington?  he wasn't great that day against Buf but did lead a late game winning TD.

we were dead against Miami but still had a 2nd half lead until the D allowed a 13 min drive to drain whatever juice they had left in that team.

you don't remember the circumstances of that Baltimore game in 2011, huh?

outside of a few guys who "takes" their team anywhere? eli won 2 SBs on the back of his Ds, Peyton was carried to 2 SB titles, Ben was awful in his first SB etc...

you can say what you want, I don't have to agree with it.  give me all the meaning;less fantasy #s you want, what did Fitz do in week 17 against a dead Bills team?  don't forget he had MUCH more talent to throw to in a QB friendly system. 

I don't want to debate Tony and bohanon, it's silly.

 

Obviously you know I meant Braylon not Marshall.  Braylon is one of my favorites, he's not half the player Marshall is and while he had that catch in the 2009 title game he also dropped a 50 yd TD vs. Cincy 2 weeks earlier and dropped a million balls that season.  in 2010 he was excellent and didn't drop many but he still wasn't Brandon Marshall.  So Mark gets no credit for the pass to Braylon in the 2010 WC game? it wasn't a long pass by the way, it was less than 20 yds but a perfect throw and catch to set up a chip shot for the win.  Braylon was really good in 2010, he wasn't Brandon marshall who almost dragged us to the playoffs.

 

 

Hey after getting torched for 99 yards on the Cruz TD it was a 3 point ballgame with half the game remaining. You make it sound like that was the last play of the game.

Yes he was bad against Dallas. What are you doing, looking up stats to convince you otherwise? You want to credit him as QB who rises to "pressure" situations and say that's more important than stats? He throws a pick in our territory so it's returned to the 1 & they get a TD to make it a 14 point game in the 4th quarter. Threw a TD pass to Plaxico after twisting him the wrong way over the wrong shoulder, and he caught it anyway. Special teams ties it up, then the D gets the ball right back. Then with the ball in his hands we have to punt after he screwed up the last series. Then by some miracle we get the ball back on a late Romo turnover in a tight game already in FG range, and he can't even move us 1 yard, necessitating Folk to make a 50 yard FG. But hey, Sanchez WON that game, right? Because he's just a winner.

He was awful against Buffalo. Clearly you don't remember that game at all. He looked like he'd never played the position before, save 1 nice pass (think it was to Holmes). There was one TD to Keller where he was open all by himself in the EZ for like 5 seconds, running to his right with no one near him. With all the time in the world to throw it, Sanchez didn't even see him until he was closing in on the left corner. He's a sh*t QB and this is an example of dumb luck the coverage didn't catch up to Keller before that. A good QB sees an impossibly open man in the endzone like that, and strikes before a small window of time closes. But Keller keeps that window open for full second after full second, so on paper the credit goes to Sanchez for finally throwing to him. There were others like that, and some God-awful misfires and plays that game, and I remember that being one of the worst games of his career (which is saying something).

I remember the circumstance of 2011 Baltimore just fine. Presumably you're referring to Sanchez not looking to his left even once before the snap, so he didn't notice that someone was about to make a beeline for him. He has no awareness in the pocket, or even before the pocket forms. So he stands there like a fool, oblivious to the idea that a defense would be trying to tackle him. Then he gets creamed, coughs up the ball - which it would seem is like his favorite thing - and then they get a TD. And it wasn't like he was done shaming himself after that either. 

[nyjunc]

9 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Hey after getting torched for 99 yards on the Cruz TD it was a 3 point ballgame with half the game remaining. You make it sound like that was the last play of the game.

Yes he was bad against Dallas. What are you doing, looking up stats to convince you otherwise? You want to credit him as QB who rises to "pressure" situations and say that's more important than stats? He throws a pick in our territory so it's returned to the 1 & they get a TD to make it a 14 point game in the 4th quarter. Threw a TD pass to Plaxico after twisting him the wrong way over the wrong shoulder, and he caught it anyway. Special teams ties it up, then the D gets the ball right back. Then with the ball in his hands we have to punt after he screwed up the last series. Then by some miracle we get the ball back on a late Romo turnover in a tight game already in FG range, and he can't even move us 1 yard, necessitating Folk to make a 50 yard FG. But hey, Sanchez WON that game, right? Because he's just a winner.

He was awful against Buffalo. Clearly you don't remember that game at all. He looked like he'd never played the position before, save 1 nice pass (think it was to Holmes). There was one TD to Keller where he was open all by himself in the EZ for like 5 seconds, running to his right with no one near him. With all the time in the world to throw it, Sanchez didn't even see him until he was closing in on the left corner. He's a sh*t QB and this is an example of dumb luck the coverage didn't catch up to Keller before that. A good QB sees an impossibly open man in the endzone like that, and strikes before a small window of time closes. But Keller keeps that window open for full second after full second, so on paper the credit goes to Sanchez for finally throwing to him. There were others like that, and some God-awful misfires and plays that game, and I remember that being one of the worst games of his career (which is saying something).

I remember the circumstance of 2011 Baltimore just fine. Presumably you're referring to Sanchez not looking to his left even once before the snap, so he didn't notice that someone was about to make a beeline for him. He has no awareness in the pocket, or even before the pocket forms. So he stands there like a fool, oblivious to the idea that a defense would be trying to tackle him. Then he gets creamed, coughs up the ball - which it would seem is like his favorite thing - and then they get a TD. And it wasn't like he was done shaming himself after that either. 

you know there are plays and moments that can change everything, that was a punch to to the gut.  we never recovered and NYG rode that momentum to a SB.

 

he was not awful against Dallas.

he threw the pick and we went down 14 but he came right back and threw a TD.

 

the TD to Burress, are you referring to that perfectly thrown back shoulder throw?

 

where did I say sanchez won that game? you know you have nothing when you have to resort to making things up to sensationalize.

 

He was not great against Buf but he was not awful either.  That is being unfair.  Our D got torched that day and our O kept coming back.

 

I am referring to signing a C off the street to start against that D who was destroyed all game long but it was Mark's fault.  Greene and LT combined for 13 carries for 20 yards but it was all Mark's fault clearly.

 

 

[Mainejet]

1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

Tony Richardson was at the end of the line, if he was not a respected vet he wouldn't have made the team in 2010.  do we forget they cut him then decided to bring him back?  so it is a silly point to argue either way.  his job was to block, you claim the OL was much better in 2010 then someone had to help the Rbs have a higher YPC, right?

 

marshall's big spot was week 17 at Buffalo, he nearly dragged us to the playoffs but the QB, among others, wouldn't let him.

 

Sanchez had enough talent to win back then and he helped us reach 2 title games, Fitz had enough this year and couldn't help us get to the playoffs.  That's been the point all along

WTF are you talking about?! You just keep coming up with this outlandish sh*t. Is this a hobby of yours? To believe whatever you want and completely ignore facts? It's like I'm talking to a child. Richardson was at the end of the line??? He was MILES better than Tommy Bohanon even on his last day in the league. So don't give me this crap about he wouldn't have even made the team?!

And you think the OL was better in 2015 now? Dude, you're all over the map. And you're WRONG about the rushing average for those particular teams as well. The 2010 team had  4.4 YPC, the 2015 team had 4.2 YPC. So where in the world you are coming with these off the wall claims is probably just things you are pulling out of your rear end? It has ZERO basis in fact.

And the extent of big spots for Marshall was the regular season finale in 2015? Meanwhile, Edwards had HUGE catches for us many times over the multiple playoff years?

Yes, and that is the point. that's what I have been saying all along and you tried to disagree with me, but now all of a sudden you're on my side? Honestly you need to figure out what you're arguing for.

I said all along that Sanchez had WAY more talent in 2010 than Fitz did in 2015. YOU were the one that said the roster was MORE talented in 2015.

[Sperm Edwards]

23 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

you know there are plays and moments that can change everything, that was a punch to to the gut.  we never recovered and NYG rode that momentum to a SB.

 

he was not awful against Dallas.

he threw the pick and we went down 14 but he came right back and threw a TD.

 

the TD to Burress, are you referring to that perfectly thrown back shoulder throw?

 

where did I say sanchez won that game? you know you have nothing when you have to resort to making things up to sensationalize.

 

He was not great against Buf but he was not awful either.  That is being unfair.  Our D got torched that day and our O kept coming back.

 

I am referring to signing a C off the street to start against that D who was destroyed all game long but it was Mark's fault.  Greene and LT combined for 13 carries for 20 yards but it was all Mark's fault clearly.

 

 

I literally don't agree with a single thing you've written here. 

And I wasn't sensationalizing. You constantly refer to the team's record with him, even when they won despite his crappy play. When things don't fall just right, you are all too quick to point them out. Well if everything falls just right, we don't need him. He sucks, and that's why he was just given away for nothing despite a generally favorable 1 year contract that even I would have signed us up for as a stopgap (but only if we draft a serious QB prospect). 

[SoFlaJets]

19 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

No.

Look, I know it's the way that we all have to be when it comes to failed Jets players, especially high profile guys like the QB position, but there was that season and a half that he was winning games for the Jets. And yes, we ALL thought that all he needed was one more shot and he would and could and a lot of the times in that little window DID win games for the Jets. I get it, I know it's not cool to NOT look back in anger, but the truth is that Sanchez  was a winning QB here for about a 20 game stretch over two seasons. Am I a Mark Sanchez lover or supporter? far from it, and neither am I a defender of his legacy, I'm just calling it the way I remember it to be.

[Sperm Edwards]

1 minute ago, SoFlaJets said:

Look, I know it's the way that we all have to be when it comes to failed Jets players, especially high profile guys like the QB position, but there was that season and a half that he was winning games for the Jets. And yes, we ALL thought that all he needed was one more shot and he would and could and a lot of the times in that little window DID win games for the Jets. I get it, I know it's not cool to NOT look back in anger, but the truth is that Sanchez  was a winning QB here for about a 20 game stretch over two seasons. Am I a Mark Sanchez lover or supporter? far from it, and neither am I a defender of his legacy, I'm just calling it the way I remember it to be.

Then you must be blocking out those 2-3 years of my posts, which I concede is understandable.