Real problems vs. reactionary narratives

[Ex-Rex]

Just now, August said:

Pryor is being asked to do something he's not capable of. Keep him in the box to cover the intermediate around, he should not be in coverage consistently. Richardson should not be playing OLB, and dropping into coverage. These players are too talented it's the coaching and schemes that's the issue right now. 

Pryor was a first round draft pick and he is NOT capable of doing too many things a safety has got to do like cover someone in close area. Can't do it. Tackle in space. Can't do it. I will not consider any argument that says Calvin Pryor is ANY F-Ing good, because he isn't. Watch the games and you will see.

[August]

2 minutes ago, Ex-Rex said:

I don't give Fitzy a pass at all. As much as I despise Geno Smith if Fitzy has one more bad half of football, I will be calling for Smith. He certainly can't do any worse (I think) and could give the team a spark. Bowles won't go for Petty until the Jets are 3-7 - which is what their record will be at the bye - because he has to keep up appearances that he is trying to win. Going with Petty at 3-7 is not so much throwing up the white flag as it is seeing what we may have next year.

I want Fitzpatrick to play this week so that way if he struggles again it'll make the decision all the more clear to bench him. Bowles can say that he gave him a long leash to turn things around etc. 

[cant wait]

4 minutes ago, Warfish said:

A review of the Jets (And Fitz's) Turnovers in 2016 Thus Far, and their Costs:

Game #1 vs. Cincinnati

Fitzpatrick INT:  0:46 left in the 4th, Jets Down by 1, From the Jets 25 Yard Line.  We debated this for a week if this cost us the game, or if the drop by Marshall deep on 1st down was worse.  General agreement that the missed FG hurt.  Did not result in Cincy scoring.

Game #2 vs. Buffalo

J.Marshall Fumble:  rookie fumble returned for a TD by Buffalo (Cost 7 Points)

Game #3 vs. Kansas City

Fitzpatrick INT #1:  Interception by Peters at NYJ 35 Yard Line.  Resulted in 4 play, 35 Yard TD Drive by K.C.  (Cost 7 Points)

Powell Fumble:  Fumble by Bilal Powell at NYJ 49 Yard Line.  Resulted in 14 Play, 44 Yard Drive for a KC FG (Cost 3 Points)

J.Marshall Fumble:  rookie fumbled on the kickoff return, returned by K.C. for a Touchdown (Cost 7 Points).  Jets are now down 17-0.

Fitzpatrick INT #2:  Interception in KC Endzone, Touchback.  Resulted in no score by K.C.

Fitzpatrick INT #3:  Interception in KC Endzone, Touchback.  Resulted in no score by K.C.

Fitzpatrick INT #4:  Interception at K.C. 22 yard line.  Resulted in no score by K.C.  Almost every NFL Coach would pull their QB at this point.

Fitzpatrick INT #5:  Interception at K.C. 45 yard Line, returned 55 yards for K.C. TD.  (Cost 7 Points, score now 3-24 K.C.)

Fitzpatrick INT #6:  Interception at K.C. Endzone, Touchback.  End of Game (No Score)

Game #4 vs. Seattle

Fitzpatrick INT #1:  At 14:30 in the 4^th, Interception at Seattle 39 Yard Line.  Seattle TD afterwards in on the Defense, as Seattle had to go 60 yards.

Fitzpatrick INT #2:  Interception at Jets 20 Yard Line.  Seattle kicked a FG (Cost 3 Points)

Fitzpatrick INT #3:  Interception at Jets 49 Yard Line.  End of Game (No Score)

 

I'd say that's a pretty impressive performance by the defense in limiting the damage caused by those pathetic turnovers

[Sperm Edwards]

13 hours ago, LionelRichie said:

 

I think you have this exactly right.   This was like Rex / Tanny in 2011 when they thought they were going to make a run at the Super Bowl and laid a gigantic turd.   

To me the big question is where to go from here?     This team sucks, is old, and very top heavy in terms of salary cap.  The Wilkerson contract looks like an albatross right now, and does a GM / HC really get the luxury to "blow it up" in year 3?    Unfortunately, the best thing for this team is to move Richardson and likely cut all the following players if they don't want to renegotiate: Decker, Harris, Marshall, Revis, Gilchrist, Bracimini.  

They absolutely should move Richardson, talented as he is, now that they've locked themselves into Mo & Williams. They won't get great value in return in terms of draft pick(s), but maybe such a trade could return a similarly talented but underperforming + unneeded player on another team. To eat the $8M next year and bottleneck the starting lineup, where he's again forcefed into a misfit role just to keep him on the field (since he really is too talented & plays with too much energy to just sit), would be repeating this year's foolishness.

Once Mo was locked up and Sheldon's suspension was confirmed as being a light one game, he should have been moved to the highest bidder. Everyone knows he was out of position last year after missing the first month, so his production downturn could be excused. Plus he showed himself to be as versatile as he was a real team player by trying his hardest when clearly out of position at LB. Add that to his dirt-cheap salary for this year & his being locked in for the relatively low $8M for next year, and I think someone would have forked over something better than we'll get in March/April.

Breno should have been cut before week 1. PUPing him was stupid, given his injury missing all summer, his most recent production last year, and his dollars.

[Big Blocker]

17 minutes ago, August said:

What would you be saying if Geno was playing the way Fitzpatrick has for 3 out of 4 games this year? 

You are new here, but for me Smith is an irrelevant consideration. 

[SAR I]

23 minutes ago, Big Blocker said:

Excellent post.  Only problem is it does not fit the preferred narrative of Smith Fans who somehow think (despite the obvious consideration that the FO and CS Hate Smith) that if they bleat enough about Fitz, they will see Smith behind center, and he will suddenly blossom into a great Qb.

Pass the kool ade.

This wasn't supposed to be another Geno thread, we have enough of those, I'm hoping the Myhero's can be objective.

19 minutes ago, August said:

What would you be saying if Geno was playing the way Fitzpatrick has for 3 out of 4 games this year? 

Oh no, you were right.

SAR I

[Big Blocker]

12 minutes ago, August said:

So why is he being paid 12 million dollars? He was brought back because the Jets "need" Ryan Fitzpatrick in order to win games. Yet he throws 10 picks in 4 games (for some that's a seasons worth of INT's) and you guys are giving him passes while funneling blame to the defense in an effort to absolve Fitzpatrick.  

Objection - assuming facts not in evidence.

[Integrity28]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

This kind of dishonesty serves no one.

Example:  A Fitz INT on the opponent 10 yard Line is a REALLY bad thing.

But if, after that turnover, the Defense allows the opponent to go 75 yards to score a TD, that TD is on the Defense, not the INT.

No one is debating that Fitz has been horrific this year, has been the one thing he could not be, a turnover machine.  Most of us are perfectly fine with benching him for his play thus far (although not for Geno, nothing gained by that).

But being willfully dishonest about how horrible our pass D has been does no one any good.  It's easy to blame one person, but as Integrity and SAR have so clearly shown, this franchises problems are materially about the QB......but not ALL about the QB by any means.  

This is the sad reality of our moron fanbase.

The anti-Fitz cohort is still trying to prove he isn't good, to people that willingly have acknowledged it for months. The rest of us have moved on dummies... Fitz was the answer ONLY within the context of the defense being dominant, and him being utilized a specific way.  

The defense isn't dominant. It sucks. Fitz is being asked to be our Brady and offset every problem with the team with greatness, and as we all know... he's lucky to give you goodness on a regular basis. 

The debate of the past 6 months is irrelevant, because the defense isn't who we ALL thought they were... and who they should be. Maybe another 6 months will go by before these goofballs realize it. I dunno.

 

[Integrity28]

13 minutes ago, August said:

Pryor is being asked to do something he's not capable of. Keep him in the box to cover the intermediate area, he should not be in coverage consistently. Richardson should not be playing OLB, and dropping into coverage. These players are too talented it's the coaching and schemes that's the issue right now. 

So, this excuse is acceptable for some, but not all?

[SAR I]

19 minutes ago, Big Blocker said:

What compounds the difficulty (as you know and many here do as well) is that it is precisely the shortcomings of the D that accentuate Fitz's weaknesses.  If a Qb comes on the field with his team down on the score in the fourth quarter, the running game is not producing, is he supposed to not take any risks and avoid interceptions at all costs?

Of course not.

Sure you don't want him throwing interceptions, and in that kind of situation Fitzpatrick shows his limitations.  But I also do not recall another Jet qb in quite some time who consistently brought the team back from being behind in the fourth quarter.

EVERYBODY HERE knew that this team was built on D going into this season.  So far the D has not shown up (even in the Buffalo game, which told us something despite the glow of winning that one).

Bingo.  Great post.

Chad Pennington was the king of no interceptions in desperation time, remember?  So consumed with his stats that he would never try to force a ball in to make a huge play, he'd take a sack before making his stats look bad with some worthwhile high-risk throws to try to win a miracle game.

As for the D, spot on, we are built to win low scoring games where we dominate on D.  I love it when posters say "how are we supposed to win games when Fitzpatrick can only put up 17 points?"  The answer?  Only give up 16.

SAR I

[SAR I]

17 minutes ago, August said:

So why is he being paid 12 million dollars? He was brought back because the Jets "need" Ryan Fitzpatrick in order to win games. Yet he throws 10 picks in 4 games (for some that's a seasons worth of INT's) and you guys are giving him passes while funneling blame to the defense in an effort to absolve Fitzpatrick.  

Again, August?  Really?

Stop with the money.  It's immaterial.  It's what he cost, move on.  Fitzpatrick was brought back because there are no better options on the roster and the first 6 weeks of the schedule are brutal, there is no one better equipped in this offense at this time to try to beat this murderers row of playoff teams than Ryan Fitzpatrick.

No one is giving Fitzpatrick a pass for his lousy play.  What some of us are saying is that he's not as big of a problem as our defense is.  Dozens of threads asking for Sid Luckman to come out of retirement, not a one calling out Darrelle Revis, David Harris, Mo Wilkerson, and the other guilty parties on the other side of the ball.

SAR I

[Kevin L]

20 minutes ago, Warfish said:

A review of the Jets (And Fitz's) Turnovers in 2016 Thus Far, and their Costs:

Game #1 vs. Cincinnati

Fitzpatrick INT:  0:46 left in the 4th, Jets Down by 1, From the Jets 25 Yard Line.  We debated this for a week if this cost us the game, or if the drop by Marshall deep on 1st down was worse.  General agreement that the missed FG hurt.  Did not result in Cincy scoring.

Game #2 vs. Buffalo

J.Marshall Fumble:  rookie fumble returned for a TD by Buffalo (Cost 7 Points)

Game #3 vs. Kansas City

Fitzpatrick INT #1:  Interception by Peters at NYJ 35 Yard Line.  Resulted in 4 play, 35 Yard TD Drive by K.C.  (Cost 7 Points)

Powell Fumble:  Fumble by Bilal Powell at NYJ 49 Yard Line.  Resulted in 14 Play, 44 Yard Drive for a KC FG (Cost 3 Points)

J.Marshall Fumble:  rookie fumbled on the kickoff return, returned by K.C. for a Touchdown (Cost 7 Points).  Jets are now down 17-0.

Fitzpatrick INT #2:  Interception in KC Endzone, Touchback.  Resulted in no score by K.C.

Fitzpatrick INT #3:  Interception in KC Endzone, Touchback.  Resulted in no score by K.C.

Fitzpatrick INT #4:  Interception at K.C. 22 yard line.  Resulted in no score by K.C.  Almost every NFL Coach would pull their QB at this point.

Fitzpatrick INT #5:  Interception at K.C. 45 yard Line, returned 55 yards for K.C. TD.  (Cost 7 Points, score now 3-24 K.C.)

Fitzpatrick INT #6:  Interception at K.C. Endzone, Touchback.  End of Game (No Score)

Game #4 vs. Seattle

Fitzpatrick INT #1:  At 14:30 in the 4^th, Interception at Seattle 39 Yard Line.  Seattle TD afterwards in on the Defense, as Seattle had to go 60 yards.

Fitzpatrick INT #2:  Interception at Jets 20 Yard Line.  Seattle kicked a FG (Cost 3 Points)

Fitzpatrick INT #3:  Interception at Jets 49 Yard Line.  End of Game (No Score)

 

That's quite a lot of points. That's also quite a lot of points that we DIDN'T score because of those turnovers. 

[SAR I]

14 minutes ago, cant wait said:

I'd say that's a pretty impressive performance by the defense in limiting the damage caused by those pathetic turnovers

Looks like a huge list with the Kansas City anomaly in there, here's what it looks like without it:

Game #1 vs. Cincinnati

Fitzpatrick INT:  0:46 left in the 4th, Jets Down by 1, From the Jets 25 Yard Line.  We debated this for a week if this cost us the game, or if the drop by Marshall deep on 1st down was worse.  General agreement that the missed FG hurt.  Did not result in Cincy scoring.

Game #4 vs. Seattle

Fitzpatrick INT #1:  At 14:30 in the 4^th, Interception at Seattle 39 Yard Line.  Seattle TD afterwards in on the Defense, as Seattle had to go 60 yards.

Fitzpatrick INT #2:  Interception at Jets 20 Yard Line.  Seattle kicked a FG

Fitzpatrick INT #3:  Interception at Jets 49 Yard Line.  End of Game (No Score)

As stated, Ryan Fitzpatrick's turnovers aren't the problem, only 1 of them occurred when a game was still winnable, the rest in desperation garbage time.  The problem is our D can't stop a cold.

SAR I

[SAR I]

18 minutes ago, August said:

I want Fitzpatrick to play this week so that way if he struggles again it'll make the decision all the more clear to bench him. Bowles can say that he gave him a long leash to turn things around etc. 

It's not going to happen because Bryce Petty isn't ready to play yet.

SAR I

[Ex-Rex]

8 minutes ago, SAR I said:

As for the D, spot on, we are built to win low scoring games where we dominate on D.  I love it when posters say "how are we supposed to win games when Fitzpatrick can only put up 17 points?"  The answer?  Only give up 16.

How do you do that when the Jets have NOTHING at the safety position. Teams have a TD whenever they want one if they can spot whoever Pryor is supposed to be covering. Gilchrist is a mental mistake waiting to happen and he doesn't want to tackle and neither does Williams. The front seven could be the best in the history of the NFL, but in this passing league liabilities like Pryor and Gilchrist cannot be overcome.

[SAR I]

12 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

This is the sad reality of our moron fanbase.

The anti-Fitz cohort is still trying to prove he isn't good, to people that willingly have acknowledged it for months. The rest of us have moved on dummies... Fitz was the answer ONLY within the context of the defense being dominant, and him being utilized a specific way.  

The defense isn't dominant. It sucks. Fitz is being asked to be our Brady and offset every problem with the team with greatness, and as we all know... he's lucky to give you goodness on a regular basis. 

The debate of the past 6 months is irrelevant, because the defense isn't who we ALL thought they were... and who they should be. Maybe another 6 months will go by before these goofballs realize it. I dunno.

 

Perfectly stated.

I can't believe we are having Geno Smith conversation with everything else going on right now, so much more to talk about that's actually relevant.

SAR I

[drdetroit]

The problem is the team sucks, the head coach sucks, the owner sucks, the qb's are horrible and fans think we are headed in the right direction because we don't have a toe sucker at HC no more

[SAR I]

3 minutes ago, Ex-Rex said:

How do you do that when the Jets have NOTHING at the safety position. Teams have a TD whenever they want one if they can spot whoever Pryor is supposed to be covering. Gilchrist is a mental mistake waiting to happen and he doesn't want to tackle and neither does Williams. The front seven could be the best in the history of the NFL, but in this passing league liabilities like Pryor and Gilchrist cannot be overcome.

Oh I agree, I'm with you, our D is way overrated.  It's one thing to dominate the Dolphins or Giants last year, it's a completely different story when you can't do it to elite teams like we're facing right now.

It's why I had us at 7-9 in the predictions thread back in July, many of us did.

SAR I

[cant wait]

1 minute ago, SAR I said:

Looks like a huge list with the Kansas City anomaly in there, here's what it looks like without it:

Game #1 vs. Cincinnati

Fitzpatrick INT:  0:46 left in the 4th, Jets Down by 1, From the Jets 25 Yard Line.  We debated this for a week if this cost us the game, or if the drop by Marshall deep on 1st down was worse.  General agreement that the missed FG hurt.  Did not result in Cincy scoring.

Game #4 vs. Seattle

Fitzpatrick INT #1:  At 14:30 in the 4^th, Interception at Seattle 39 Yard Line.  Seattle TD afterwards in on the Defense, as Seattle had to go 60 yards.

Fitzpatrick INT #2:  Interception at Jets 20 Yard Line.  Seattle kicked a FG

Fitzpatrick INT #3:  Interception at Jets 49 Yard Line.  End of Game (No Score)

As stated, Ryan Fitzpatrick's turnovers aren't the problem, only 1 of them occurred when a game was still winnable, the rest in desperation garbage time.  The problem is our D can't stop a cold.

SAR I

why are you leaving out 1/4 of the games again? you're also omitting the failed red zone conversions and fumbling issues that fitz has had this season. this is the some of the worst QB play this team has ever seen, and to claim that it's unfair to expect more from a guy who held out all offseason because he wanted more out the team is just making excuses for failure

[Ex-Rex]

5 minutes ago, drdetroit said:

The problem is the team sucks, the head coach sucks, the owner sucks, the qb's are horrible and fans think we are headed in the right direction because we don't have a toe sucker at HC no more

As usual Detriot you are the master of oversimplification. Try a little deeper analysis for once.

[drdetroit]

1 minute ago, Ex-Rex said:

As usual Detriot you are the master of oversimplification. Try a little deeper analysis for once.

The roster is great dude

[Ex-Rex]

17 minutes ago, SAR I said:

No one is giving Fitzpatrick a pass for his lousy play.  What some of us are saying is that he's not as big of a problem as our defense is.  Dozens of threads asking for Sid Luckman to come out of retirement, not a one calling out Darrelle Revis, David Harris, Mo Wilkerson, and the other guilty parties on the other side of the ball.

I have identified the weakness on the defense and it is at safety. We need to get rid of BOTH of them and the sooner the better. Pryor and Gilchrist are now and continue to be the weak link in an otherwise tremendous defense. Williams needs to get better at tackling, but his coverage has not be terrible and Revis has not be Revis Island, but he still has played pretty well. 

[Kevin L]

22 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Bingo.  Great post.

Chad Pennington was the king of no interceptions in desperation time, remember?  So consumed with his stats that he would never try to force a ball in to make a huge play, he'd take a sack before making his stats look bad with some worthwhile high-risk throws to try to win a miracle game.

As for the D, spot on, we are built to win low scoring games where we dominate on D.  I love it when posters say "how are we supposed to win games when Fitzpatrick can only put up 17 points?"  The answer?  Only give up 16.

SAR I

Sure. The Broncos last year were one of the most dominant defenses in history. They gave up 18.5 PPG. 

The only way we can possibly compete with our extremely limited QB? Be one of the best D's in NFL history. Simple.

And those turnovers? Never mind those. Completely irrelevant.

[Ex-Rex]

2 minutes ago, drdetroit said:

The roster is great dude

Hey not bad for in depth analysis. I'll put you up for HC next time the job comes open since you are so astute at identifying problems.

[drdetroit]

2 minutes ago, Kevin L said:

Sure. The Broncos last year were one of the most dominant defenses in history. They gave up 18.5 PPG. 

The only way we can possibly compete with our extremely limited QB? Be one of the best D's in NFL history. Simple.

And those turnovers? Never mind those. Completely irrelevant.

Our defense sucks.  A lot of that is Bowles not knowing how to make in game adjustments but this is not even an average NFL defense

 

Zero pass rush.  Our D-line is so overrated.  Our secondary stinks

[Matt39]

6 minutes ago, drdetroit said:

The roster is great dude

It's really not

[cant wait]

1 minute ago, Kevin L said:

Sure. The Broncos last year were one of the most dominant defenses in history. They gave up 18.5 PPG. 

The only way we can possibly compete with our extremely limited QB? Be one of the best D's in NFL history. Simple.

And those turnovers? Never mind those. Completely irrelevant.

I believe last year's Broncos were the only team in NFL history to actually have less yards on offense than every opponent they faced in the playoffs and still win every game 

[Kevin L]

Just now, drdetroit said:

Our defense sucks.  A lot of that is Bowles not knowing how to make in game adjustments but this is not even an average NFL defense

Our defense does suck. No doubt about it. Our offense is worse. We can't score points because of turnovers which compounds the problems on D.

[Integrity28]

1 minute ago, Kevin L said:

Sure. The Broncos last year were one of the most dominant defenses in history. They gave up 18.5 PPG. 

The only way we can possibly compete with our extremely limited QB? Be one of the best D's in NFL history. Simple.

And those turnovers? Never mind those. Completely irrelevant.

The turnovers aren't irrelevant. The combination of awful defense and awful QB play is why we're a bottom 10 team in the league, whether the stupid power rankings say so or not. Don't care. We're ******* horrible.

The point you're overlooking is that when a team invests all of these first rounders and big FA contracts into the defense, hires a defensive coach, and basically goes all-in on defense... then it should be one of the best D's in the NFL. Maybe not in history, but in the league this year? Yes. Without ******* question. 

We ALL understand the role of back QB'ing in this horrible start. Nobody is excusing Fitz, what some of us are doing is putting his INTs into context and trying to have an "okay, the QB sucks, but what else is really going on here" conversation. 

The defense, given that it has been the single emphasis of the past 4 regimes, has absorbed an overwhelming majority of resource allocation, is absolutely, without question a huge part of the problem here. 

We have 1 first-rounder on offense that we drafted. Nick Mangold. That is pitiful, when you consider that we have 3 first rounders that we drafted in one position group on the DL.

Pitiful.

[drdetroit]

3 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

It's really not

Forget Revis how friggin overrated is Wilkerson?

[drdetroit]

3 minutes ago, Kevin L said:

Our defense does suck. No doubt about it. Our offense is worse. We can't score points because of turnovers which compounds the problems on D.

This isn't a case of offensive turnovers killing the defense.

 

This defense is just not good.  

[SAR I]

26 minutes ago, Ex-Rex said:

I have identified the weakness on the defense and it is at safety. We need to get rid of BOTH of them and the sooner the better. Pryor and Gilchrist are now and continue to be the weak link in an otherwise tremendous defense. Williams needs to get better at tackling, but his coverage has not be terrible and Revis has not be Revis Island, but he still has played pretty well. 

Does Pryor need to go or is he merely playing out of position in a defense that isn't built for his in-the-box strengths?  Is he a bust or a fish out of water?

SAR I

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

This stuff is all dicta. One, put somebody in charge and make sure everybody knows who it is. Two, cherchez la quarterback. Three, build through the draft. All successful franchises do all of these things. The Jets do none of them. The organization directs half of its efforts toward going 8-8 plus or minus strength of schedule and the other half toward slathering enough lipstick on the pig that those so inclined can squint real hard and talk themselves into believing we're not all just wasting our time paying attention.

[drdetroit]

1 minute ago, SAR I said:

Does Pryor need to go or is he merely playing out of position in a defense that isn't built for his in-the-box strengths?  Is he a bust or a fish out of water?

SAR I

He's a bust.  

 

 

Revis will move to safety next season so that might help him

[detectivekimble]

4 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

Yup. This infringes upon "completely unacceptable", if it doesn't get turned around by end of year, I'd consider Bowles squarely on hot seat in year 3.

If Fitzpatrick keeps playing like he does, he won't be back next year.  At that point, Bowles better hope that Petty or Hackenberg can play, because if not, he's ****ed.