KDels Draft Board

[kdels62]

Well I finally got around to doing my mostly final version of my big board. I will drop the big board by positional rank since I think it helps keep things interesting.
 

First up is Wide Receivers 

Next to each player is their overall rank on my big board.

[Jets Voice of Reason]

3 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

Well I finally got around to doing my mostly final version of my big board. I will drop the big board by positional rank since I think it helps keep things interesting.
 

First up is Wide Receivers 

Next to each player is their overall rank on my big board.

Hot take on Watson. Spicy.

Otherwise, strong list, I think mine is fairly similar. Some like Pierce higher on their lists, but he's a one-trick for me with athletic ability potential, but plays slower than the athletic speed on no vertical routes.

[kdels62]

8 minutes ago, Jets Voice of Reason said:

Hot take on Watson. Spicy.

Otherwise, strong list, I think mine is fairly similar. Some like Pierce higher on their lists, but he's a one-trick for me with athletic ability potential, but plays slower than the athletic speed on no vertical routes.

Pierce has so many tools and that’s why he’s a top 100 player but man he leaves a lot to be desired as a receiver.

[Jets Voice of Reason]

14 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

Pierce has so many tools and that’s why he’s a top 100 player but man he leaves a lot to be desired as a receiver.

I suspect Pierce is going higher than he deserves and so is Christian Watson, although I like his long term potential more than Pierce's. I may eat my words, but I kind of feel like Thornton is a better value with where he might go versus where Pierce ends up going based on current skillset.

My favorite mid-round guys are probably Tolbert, Shakir and Calvin Austin, They're all guys that in a few years I can see being pro bowl caliber and represent good value relative to where they might go. David Bell is that guy that people like, no one wants to spend a high pick on, but probably ends up a productive pro.

[derp]

Can you sell me on Garrett Wilson? I see a guy with flashy stop start who played at a big school but never was the guy and is just an above average size adjusted athlete. I tend to be down on the skinny guys I guess.

I feel like he’s ranked (by most, not just you) as if he produced significantly better than he did and/or he’s a significantly better athlete than he is. And I think he benefits from the newer era of wide receivers and what they look like.

[GangGreen Machine]

51 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

Well I finally got around to doing my mostly final version of my big board. I will drop the big board by positional rank since I think it helps keep things interesting.
 

First up is Wide Receivers 

Next to each player is their overall rank on my big board.

Solid post. I'm curious as to your thoughts on Williams vs. Pickens. It is my uneducated opinion that these two might have been 1A and 1B wide outs in this draft had injuries not gotten in the way. Pickens is 9 months ahead of schedule on his ACL recovery compared to Williams. Is there a huge value in Pickens that some folks might not see in him as compared to Williams who may miss some games? 

[kdels62]

52 minutes ago, derp said:

Can you sell me on Garrett Wilson? I see a guy with flashy stop start who played at a big school but never was the guy and is just an above average size adjusted athlete. I tend to be down on the skinny guys I guess.

I feel like he’s ranked (by most, not just you) as if he produced significantly better than he did and/or he’s a significantly better athlete than he is. And I think he benefits from the newer era of wide receivers and what they look like.

Add in the fact that he’s great at getting YAC and he has contested catch ability. Wilson has been successful at all levels of the field and his raw athleticism matches up. 

However, just because he’s my 7th overall player doesn’t mean I view him as a top 10 pick in a faceless normal draft. I view Wilson as a mid first rounder elevated by this draft’s lack of high end talent. 

[kdels62]

1 hour ago, GangGreen Machine said:

Solid post. I'm curious as to your thoughts on Williams vs. Pickens. It is my uneducated opinion that these two might have been 1A and 1B wide outs in this draft had injuries not gotten in the way. Pickens is 9 months ahead of schedule on his ACL recovery compared to Williams. Is there a huge value in Pickens that some folks might not see in him as compared to Williams who may miss some games? 

I don’t love Pickens. Reception perception just posted their profile on him and it validates some of my concerns with Pickens’s game. His game speed isn’t great and he wasn’t particularly good on deeper routes. Weirdly he also had a higher contested catch percentage than Drake London. That’s concerning especially since Pickens doesn’t have big hands and he has a knack for Body catching.

I’ve spoken a lot about what I don’t love about Jameson Williams. He’s from the system that Alabama system that takes small dudes and gets them free releases  and gives them long developing routes designed to take advantage of the lack of sped in CFB. Jameo struggled in press coverage and relied on bunch concepts to win outside. He’s another guy that doesn’t snag the ball out of the air. He could still have a Waddle like impact in the short term, where he catches things in the short field and gets YAC but that’s a dangerous game.

[GangGreen Machine]

1 minute ago, kdels62 said:

I don’t love Pickens. Reception perception just posted their profile on him and it validates some of my concerns with Pickens’s game. His game speed isn’t great and he wasn’t particularly good on deeper routes. Weirdly he also had a higher contested catch percentage than Drake London. That’s concerning especially since Pickens doesn’t have big hands and he has a knack to hand catch.

I’ve spoken a lot about what I don’t love about Jameson Williams. He’s from the system that Alabama system that takes small dudes and gets them free releases  and gives them long developing routes designed to take advantage of the lack of sped in CFB. Jameo struggled in press coverage and relied on bunch concepts to win outside. He’s another guy that doesn’t snag the ball out of the air. He could still have a Waddle like impact in the short term, where he catches things in the short field and gets YAC but that’s a dangerous game.

Thanks. Just saw this after I posted a thread about Pickens vs. London. I'm sure the same will be said about him there. Great insight. 

[derp]

11 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

Add in the fact that he’s great at getting YAC and he has contested catch ability. Wilson has been successful at all levels of the field and his raw athleticism matches up. 

However, just because he’s my 7th overall player doesn’t mean I view him as a top 10 pick in a faceless normal draft. I view Wilson as a mid first rounder elevated by this draft’s lack of high end talent. 

I’ll have to take a look at reception perception, I know he’s done a decent job historically. I definitely have a hard time getting over the production side of things for him, especially coming from a place like Ohio State where he’s going to get attention and there’s no chance he’s a diamond in the rough, and the tools were underwhelming too.

I haven’t found that the more scouting heavy guys I’ve watched like him that much either, feel like the Olave love is pretty consistent with that crew and London is hit or miss.

[kdels62]

1 minute ago, derp said:

I’ll have to take a look at reception perception, I know he’s done a decent job historically. I definitely have a hard time getting over the production side of things for him, especially coming from a place like Ohio State where he’s going to get attention and there’s no chance he’s a diamond in the rough, and the tools were underwhelming too.

I haven’t found that the more scouting heavy guys I’ve watched like him that much either, feel like the Olave love is pretty consistent with that crew and London is hit or miss.

I’m curious if London doesn’t get injured if he ends up as a guaranteed top 5 guy. He’d have led CFB in yards, catches, YAC, contested catches, and TDs. He also would’ve probably have gotten a prime time game or a bowl game. He got injured before most casual fans got eyes on him. 

[derp]

20 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

I’m curious if London doesn’t get injured if he ends up as a guaranteed top 5 guy. He’d have led CFB in yards, catches, YAC, contested catches, and TDs. He also would’ve probably have gotten a prime time game or a bowl game. He got injured before most casual fans got eyes on him. 

There’s a chance but I still think he was more or less a straight possession guy and top five receivers typically have some explosive element to their game. Guess he couldn’t have ducked the 40 and we would’ve seen what he had in his legs. Dunno if he would’ve been more Pickens (faster than expected) or Hamilton (not a WR but slower than expected).

[kdels62]

Up next I’m posting my top 10 LBers. It’s a good group that gets dropped because of positional value. 

[Drums]

I appreciate your takes, Kdels

[maury77]

I'm just sitting here waiting for the @Paradis vs. @kdels62 fight over Pickens. 

 

Solid work @kdels62. I know how much effort it takes to do this and you are still in law school (I think), so you don't exactly have loads of free time. 

[JustInFudge]

Wan'Dale being rated as the 15th best receiver is criminal, CRIMINAL!!!!!!!!!!!    He's going to ball so hard and I'm going to be so obnoxious about it.  I havent even been obnoxious about my Deebo call the day declared, I'm going to be so obnoxious about Wan'Dale.  Might even change my name again JiFapono'Dale.

[JustInFudge]

Oh nice work otherwise,  @kdels62,

[kdels62]

26 minutes ago, maury77 said:

I'm just sitting here waiting for the @Paradis vs. @kdels62 fight over Pickens. 

 

Solid work @kdels62. I know how much effort it takes to do this and you are still in law school (I think), so you don't exactly have loads of free time. 

I thought I’d get this done last week. But between OCI’s and actual school I’ve been wrung dry. This stuff keeps me distracted when I get some down time. 

[JustInFudge]

Oh and I've been going in on some London stuff and I'm a hard pass on London. Do not want at all.  Wild you have him #1 and crazy we could be so drastically different in opinion

I put this in the Baldy breakdown thread, worth posting here;

If London was a TE, I'd love him.  No thanks though in the top 10.  He's not fast, at all and doesnt create separation.  Even plays where he does "get open" down field, like the double move Baldy shared vs. ND.  That wasnt a good move at all, he doesnt have near the route running as the OSU guys.  In fact, it was actually pathetic double move, it was just some of the worst Defense I've ever seen.  It kind of reminds of watching Zach Wilson last year, you see these flashy plays that pop and you see this big appealing target but when you watch it more closely, I just dont see anything that translates as a WR.  So many of these "flashy" plays just will not translate because the defenders we so terribly out of position, anyone could make the play.  I've also noticed for as many underthrown balls that had to go up and get, he also creates contested balls by leaving his feet when it's not necessary.  He's not a nuanced WR like at all.  Lacks the simple stuff that makes WR's great.  He's not late with his hands, he has very bad Footwork, doesnt have wiggle, he doesnt know how to catch the ball at full speed, leaps when unnecessary.  HUGE red flags on London.  HUGE.  The fact that he's a slug makes it worse.  Hard pass on London.  Hard pass.

[kdels62]

17 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

Oh and I've been going in on some London stuff and I'm a hard pass on London. Do not want at all.  Wild you have him #1 and crazy we could be so drastically different in opinion

I put this in the Baldy breakdown thread, worth posting here;

If London was a TE, I'd love him.  No thanks though in the top 10.  He's not fast, at all and doesnt create separation.  Even plays where he does "get open" down field, like the double move Baldy shared vs. ND.  That wasnt a good move at all, he doesnt have near the route running as the OSU guys.  In fact, it was actually pathetic double move, it was just some of the worst Defense I've ever seen.  It kind of reminds of watching Zach Wilson last year, you see these flashy plays that pop and you see this big appealing target but when you watch it more closely, I just dont see anything that translates as a WR.  So many of these "flashy" plays just will not translate because the defenders we so terribly out of position, anyone could make the play.  I've also noticed for as many underthrown balls that had to go up and get, he also creates contested balls by leaving his feet when it's not necessary.  He's not a nuanced WR like at all.  Lacks the simple stuff that makes WR's great.  He's not late with his hands, he has very bad Footwork, doesnt have wiggle, he doesnt know how to catch the ball at full speed, leaps when unnecessary.  HUGE red flags on London.  HUGE.  The fact that he's a slug makes it worse.  Hard pass on London.  Hard pass.

That double move was all about the recurring ability he shows to drift to the CBs blind spot before angling away and either going deep or turning in for a curl route. The subtlety of London’s game is why he has so many wins even though he only ran like 5 routes. London has the best release package in terms of winning at the line of scrimmage of all the receivers in this draft, except for maybe Olave. London is so good at avoiding the jam with leverage and with strength. 

[JustInFudge]

11 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

That double move was all about the recurring ability he shows to drift to the CBs blind spot before angling away and either going deep or turning in for a curl route. The subtlety of London’s game is why he has so many wins even though he only ran like 5 routes. London has the best release package in terms of winning at the line of scrimmage of all the receivers in this draft, except for maybe Olave. London is so good at avoiding the jam with leverage and with strength. 

I get it and I think what you're saying is nice in theory but this particular play, was just some of the absolute worst technique I've seen from a CB.  Pre snap, he moving with his back toward the boundary, clearly willing to use it but then he swing his hips open as if the boundary wasnt there and then just fades, it was terrible and all London gave him was a terrible sloppy banana shaped double move.  It was pathetic, the CB bit and then once again, London completely unnecessarily leaves his feet to catch the ball.  You watch a guy like Olave make that play for example, it's crisp, it's precise, his set up is ridiculous and he doesnt leave the ground when he makes that adjustment for the ball and instead, will stay grounded, make the adjustment and provide some yac.

London would be stud TE.  Not a very good WR.  You can just tell he really doesnt understand the position, at all. 

[maury77]

41 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

Oh and I've been going in on some London stuff and I'm a hard pass on London. Do not want at all.  Wild you have him #1 and crazy we could be so drastically different in opinion

I put this in the Baldy breakdown thread, worth posting here;

If London was a TE, I'd love him.  No thanks though in the top 10.  He's not fast, at all and doesnt create separation.  Even plays where he does "get open" down field, like the double move Baldy shared vs. ND.  That wasnt a good move at all, he doesnt have near the route running as the OSU guys.  In fact, it was actually pathetic double move, it was just some of the worst Defense I've ever seen.  It kind of reminds of watching Zach Wilson last year, you see these flashy plays that pop and you see this big appealing target but when you watch it more closely, I just dont see anything that translates as a WR.  So many of these "flashy" plays just will not translate because the defenders we so terribly out of position, anyone could make the play.  I've also noticed for as many underthrown balls that had to go up and get, he also creates contested balls by leaving his feet when it's not necessary.  He's not a nuanced WR like at all.  Lacks the simple stuff that makes WR's great.  He's not late with his hands, he has very bad Footwork, doesnt have wiggle, he doesnt know how to catch the ball at full speed, leaps when unnecessary.  HUGE red flags on London.  HUGE.  The fact that he's a slug makes it worse.  Hard pass on London.  Hard pass.

Once again you and I are of the same mind, which means London is definitely the pick at 10. 

[kdels62]

2 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

I get it and I think what you're saying is nice in theory but this particular play, was just some of the absolute worst technique I've seen from a CB.  Pre snap, he moving with his back toward the boundary, clearly willing to use it but then he swing his hips open as if the boundary wasnt there and then just fades, it was terrible and all London gave him was a terrible sloppy banana shaped double move.  It was pathetic, the CB bit and then once again, London completely unnecessarily leaves his feet to catch the ball.  You watch a guy like Olave make that play for example, it's crisp, it's precise, his set up is ridiculous and he doesnt leave the ground when he makes that adjustment for the ball and instead, will stay grounded, make the adjustment and provide some yac.

London would be stud TE.  Not a very good WR.  You can just tell he really doesnt understand the position, at all. 

Except Olave wouldn’t get YAC because he never got YAC. You’re discounting the fact that London whips his head towards the sideline and turns his shoulders like he’s gonna break outside. The CB loses London for a split second and commits to the outbreaking route. In slow motion you can see that London is setting up a double move but in action London has eaten up the cushion and passed the first down marker. The catch was excellent. It’s an under throw with a defender approaching. He uses his best asset to ensure the hands catch. His other options were to throttle down and hope the defender doesn’t catch up or turn and catch the ball without jumping. 

 

[kdels62]

3 minutes ago, maury77 said:

Once again you and I are of the same mind, which means London is definitely the pick at 10. 

It’s gonna hurt when London and Zach bust since it’s basically the team I would’ve built. 

[JustInFudge]

...

1 hour ago, kdels62 said:

Except Olave wouldn’t get YAC because he never got YAC. You’re discounting the fact that London whips his head towards the sideline and turns his shoulders like he’s gonna break outside. The CB loses London for a split second and commits to the outbreaking route. In slow motion you can see that London is setting up a double move but in action London has eaten up the cushion and passed the first down marker. The catch was excellent. It’s an under throw with a defender approaching. He uses his best asset to ensure the hands catch. His other options were to throttle down and hope the defender doesn’t catch up or turn and catch the ball without jumping. 

 

Meh, not going to argue this with you, we just completely see that play differently and that's ok.   And you're right, years prior Olave didnt show his Yac ability but that's because many of his big play ended in TD.  I think he showed it this season, which is progress to an already much more refined game than London.  IMO

Let me ask you this; do you like London because of his size and what he offers with this go up and get it over these other guys ie; Wilson/Olave/Williams.  Or do you actually think he's the better receiver? 

 

 

[Paradis]

18 hours ago, kdels62 said:

I don’t love Pickens. Reception perception just posted their profile on him and it validates some of my concerns with Pickens’s game. His game speed isn’t great and he wasn’t particularly good on deeper routes. Weirdly he also had a higher contested catch percentage than Drake London. That’s concerning especially since Pickens doesn’t have big hands and he has a knack for Body catching.

I’ve spoken a lot about what I don’t love about Jameson Williams. He’s from the system that Alabama system that takes small dudes and gets them free releases  and gives them long developing routes designed to take advantage of the lack of sped in CFB. Jameo struggled in press coverage and relied on bunch concepts to win outside. He’s another guy that doesn’t snag the ball out of the air. He could still have a Waddle like impact in the short term, where he catches things in the short field and gets YAC but that’s a dangerous game.

 

[Paradis]

21 hours ago, kdels62 said:

Well I finally got around to doing my mostly final version of my big board. I will drop the big board by positional rank since I think it helps keep things interesting.
 

First up is Wide Receivers 

Next to each player is their overall rank on my big board.

Frankly i don't think you have Watson low enough lol... too many question marks to warrant anything more than a day 3 pick.

I noticed you don't have Drummond anywhere. Either that's an oversight, or you really don't like him. Hope it's the former.  

[kdels62]

3 minutes ago, Paradis said:

 

It’s just an observation that admittedly hasn’t manifested negatively yet. So I will remain skeptical. That being said Pickens is a high second rounder to me and from Burks to Pickens is basically a “pick your type” tier of WR. 

[kdels62]

3 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Frankly i don't think you have Watson low enough lol... too many question marks to warrant anything more than a day 3 pick.

I noticed you don't have Drummond anywhere. Either that's an oversight, or you really don't like him. Hope it's the former.  

Dontario Drummond rests at 137 on my draft board. He ran a 4.65 and is a senior. 5th round and he could be a nice piece. 

[kdels62]

6 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Frankly i don't think you have Watson low enough lol... too many question marks to warrant anything more than a day 3 pick.

I noticed you don't have Drummond anywhere. Either that's an oversight, or you really don't like him. Hope it's the former.  

So this is a drafting board, with positional value and testing and past nfl performance being more heavily weighted than just how I really feel. So I can’t ignore Watson’s physical traits on a big board like this. Yes, if I wanted to actually rank Watson he’d be lower.

[maury77]

1 hour ago, kdels62 said:

It’s gonna hurt when London and Zach bust since it’s basically the team I would’ve built. 

Fortunately for me, I don't have any Jets gear left to throw out as I threw it all out last year. 

[kdels62]

25 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

...

Meh, not going to argue this with you, we just completely see that play differently and that's ok.   And you're right, years prior Olave didnt show his Yac ability but that's because many of his big play ended in TD.  I think he showed it this season, which is progress to an already much more refined game than London.  IMO

Let me ask you this; do you like London because of his size and what he offers with this go up and get it over these other guys ie; Wilson/Olave/Williams.  Or do you actually think he's the better receiver? 

 

 

Both. I think London’s size and radius is great. I also think he’s a technician and runs routes better than anyone not named Olave. He’s an intense player with good YAC ability and elite win rates on 9 routes, slants and comebacks. 

I generally don’t value contested catches. I didn’t like Mims or Reagor and I didn’t like Tee Higgins as a first rounder when that was assumed. There’s something in London’s game that does it for me.

[kdels62]

5 minutes ago, maury77 said:

Fortunately for me, I don't have any Jets gear left to throw out as I threw it all out last year. 

Can’t wait for you to purchase a black Zach Wilson jersey in December to gear up for the play off run.

[derp]

Like everything else, the London debate is gray and we all have a lot of time to formulate a decision and make it black and white. He’s got outstanding ball skills, good size, good production, a surprising feel, and some toughness. He’s also probably really slow, still not especially polished for having that feel, only produced as a possession receiver, and had some gadget-y usage.

Lots of stuff that wouldn’t surprise me if he’s successful and lots of stuff that wouldn’t surprise me if he’s not. What it boils down to for me is usage. He needs to put on like 10-15 pounds and be used like the Saints used to use big slots who occasionally played outside - Colston, Thomas. If a team takes him and puts him in that role I think there’s a good chance he’s got some seasons as an 80 catch, 1000 yard guy. If they try to turn him into Mike Evans he’s going to disappoint. I lean towards a team finding that role for him, I don’t know if that’s the Jets. I do like that he’s good against press and I could see him and Moore playing inside out as primary guys with a more true X receiver who can keep the field spaced and they can take shots to. I’d prefer a more explosive guy in that role, but I could see them doing it.

Ultimately we’ve historically seen these guys translate pretty well. But they usually go in the second round, so I don’t know if we notice as much when they bust. That’s I think the issue with most of this class, I think it’s a lot of second round guys who are getting pushed up because teams want receivers and they’ve translated well the last few years. But this group just isn’t as good as prior groups in my opinion, and a lot of the guys are going to get drafted too high and have outsized expectations.

[Paradis]

 

16 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

Dontario Drummond rests at 137 on my draft board. He ran a 4.65 and is a senior. 5th round and he could be a nice piece. 

I get it, he was never gonna set the measurement boards on fire. I don't know if I could argue for him any earlier than rnd 4... but late 3 if there was a run on WRs... I just feel like you know what you're getting with him. plug and play WR3, who can spot fill in Z in 2-receiver sets. He'll be the Tyler Boyd of the offense.

20 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

It’s just an observation that admittedly hasn’t manifested negatively yet. So I will remain skeptical. That being said Pickens is a high second rounder to me and from Burks to Pickens is basically a “pick your type” tier of WR. 

Pickens resonates to me a lot like Allen Robinson. That's the potential ceiling we're looking at. Bit more meat on Robinson's frame but Pickens isn't far behind.