I got a great boxing analagy for you Eric

[Barton]

Chad Pennington is the boxer who only throws a jab punch, who doesnt have the power to knock anybody out!

[Scott Dierking]

Kellen Clemens may very well be the boxer that can't protect himself.

Who knows?

[bitonti]

I agree with both of those statements.

[Barton]

Kellen Clemens may very well be the boxer that can't protect himself.

Who knows?

I know 1 thing. Curly told me this right before he died......

Pennington isnt the answer.

[Scott Dierking]

I know 1 thing. Curly told me this right before he died......

Pennington isnt the answer.

But that does not make it right to put in Clemens, if he is not the answer either.

[Barton]

But that does not make it right to put in Clemens, if he is not the answer either.

Yes it does. Because you dont know he is not the answer until you put him in!

Cant start him this week, but definetly put him in if Pennington struggles in the 1st half. And if we lose this week, Clemens definetly should start the last 2 games.

[Ryno the Jet]

But that does not make it right to put in Clemens, if he is not the answer either.

True, but we need to know if Clemens is the answer or not. Chad has lost too many fights. This Clemens kid needs a chance to throw a punch. Why not now?

[bitonti]

And if we lose this week, Clemens definetly should start the last 2 games.

ok so if that happens, and Clemens gets slaughtered in those 2 games, will the Jets know what they have?

if not, what's the point?

[Scott Dierking]

Yes it does. Because you dont know he is not the answer until you put him in!

Cant start him this week, but definetly put him in if Pennington struggles in the 1st half. And if we lose this week, Clemens definetly should start the last 2 games.

Barton-Do you trust Mangini?

Do you trust Mangini to put this team in teh best position to win?

Do you believe that Mangini has the pulse of this team better than you?

please answer those questions, and I can proceed with you.

[Maxman]

ok so if that happens, and Clemens gets slaughtered in those 2 games, will the Jets know what they have?

if not, what's the point?

The point is getting the kid some game experience. Making ALL the offseason stuff that much more valuable to him. Let him see the speed of the game for a few weeks. Sure his head will spin. Then in the offseason workouts hopefully things start to click for him.

That is the point. It is not about winning or losing these games. It is about taking this team to the next level. Unless they get a defense that resembles the Bears in here, they are not winning the Super Bowl with Chad running the show.

[Scott Dierking]

The point is getting the kid some game experience. Making ALL the offseason stuff that much more valuable to him. Let him see the speed of the game for a few weeks. Sure his head will spin. Then in the offseason workouts hopefully things start to click for him.

That is the point. It is not about winning or losing these games. It is about taking this team to the next level. Unless they get a defense that resembles the Bears in here, they are not winning the Super Bowl with Chad running the show.

And, if the experiment fails greatly, the consequences CAN be dire.

Again, I am raising from a purely hypothetical point, but I believe these to be psooible reults-

a) You lose the veteran faction of your locker room on what they perceive is a playoff run, which you aborted on them

Clemens fails miserably and is scarred beyond hope and you set him back psychologically, rather than phasing him into the offense when he is ready.

c) Free Agents see what Mangini did to Chad, in what they PERCEVE as being a good year, being yanked and tell the Jets. "No thank you, I want to be in an environment where I feel I won't be yanked around on a whim.

Are any of those worth it?

[Ryno the Jet]

The point is getting the kid some game experience. Making ALL the offseason stuff that much more valuable to him. Let him see the speed of the game for a few weeks. Sure his head will spin. Then in the offseason workouts hopefully things start to click for him.

That is the point. It is not about winning or losing these games. It is about taking this team to the next level. Unless they get a defense that resembles the Bears in here, they are not winning the Super Bowl with Chad running the show.

Agree with Max here (scary, I know). I have had it with Penny! I really want to be a Penny supporter, but enough is enough. I am scared to death of the Vikings, as their D against the run is amazing. Chad will need to beat this team downfield, and I don't have enough confidence in Chad's ability to do this. This team is rebuilding for the future, and they need to see what they have in Clemens, at least on the short-term. I realize 2-3 games is not going to show what KC is all about, but it will give us a preview. Regardless of what the rest of the team has done, historically speaking, Chad and his play have been heavy contributors to Jets losses. Yes, he has led them to wins as well, but that is not how this league works. To quote the great Janet Jackson: "What have you done for me lately? OOOH, OOOH, OOOH-YEA!"

[Scott Dierking]

Agree with Max here (scary, I know). I have had it with Penny! I really want to be a Penny supporter, but enough is enough. I am scared to death of the Vikings, as their D against the run is amazing. Chad will need to beat this team downfield, and I don't have enough confidence in Chad's ability to do this. This team is rebuilding for the future, and they need to see what they have in Clemens, at least on the short-term. I realize 2-3 games is not going to show what KC is all about, but it will give us a preview. Regardless of what the rest of the team has done, historically speaking, Chad and his play have been heavy contributors to Jets losses. Yes, he has led them to wins as well, but that is not how this league works. To quote the great Janet Jackson: "What have you done for me lately? OOOH, OOOH, OOOH-YEA!"

Can we get him some time in the World League, when the consequences are not as great?

[Ryno the Jet]

Can we get him some time in the World League, when the consequences are not as great?

Sounds great to me! Hell, send Chad and Clemens over to NFLE on different divisional teams and see who fairs better. What consequences do you speak of? I understand the "killing the spirit of the team" idealology, but I do not see it that way. If this kid is soft enough that 2-3 games of his initial career play are going to kill his career, then we don't need him in the first place. Same can be said for the whole team. If the coach decides to go with a new guy at QB, then the team needs to approach the game with the coach knows what he is doing mentality. I think the players are intelligent enough to see that Chad does not have what it takes to get to the next level. Would that opinion not also lead to team destruction? This team can just as easly lose faith in Chad as easy as they can be unsupportive of Clemens.

[serphnx]

And, if the experiment fails greatly, the consequences CAN be dire.

Again, I am raising from a purely hypothetical point, but I believe these to be psooible reults-

a) You lose the veteran faction of your locker room on what they perceive is a playoff run, which you aborted on them

Clemens fails miserably and is scarred beyond hope and you set him back psychologically, rather than phasing him into the offense when he is ready.

c) Free Agents see what Mangini did to Chad, in what they PERCEVE as being a good year, being yanked and tell the Jets. "No thank you, I want to be in an environment where I feel I won't be yanked around on a whim.

Are any of those worth it?

1) They need to raise their standards, because teams on playoff runs generally do not lose to the Browns and Bills, and fail to score a point against the Jaguars and Bears. The Broncos are in a playoff run too, and now they have a rookie QB. They have a tough schedule ahead but frankly they have a better chance of winning 3 in a row than we do.

2) Then he definitely doesn't have the tools to be a QB in this league. If you're going to be psychologically scarred after a few bad games, go find something else to do for a living. It's not like Pennington was good the very first game he played, and he had like 3 years sitting on the bench. Every QB in the league will have bad games, if you can't bounce back then you won't last long. On the microlevel, every QB will also have bad throws in a game. Those that can't bounce back from that are also not worth keeping. Like Chad Pennington, if something goes wrong he goes into a shell.

3) If these free agents are the type that classify Pennington's performances as a "good" year, then they are losers and we do not want them on the team anyway. Outside of Jets fans, virtually every fan base thinks Pennington sucks. I've actually been to other message boards and spoken to other football fans, Pennington is held in very low regard around the league. What kind of message does it send to the team when the QB is allowed to get away with what is considered mediocre to bad play? That this is the level of play the Jets will aspire to? Yeah, that's going to build a winning culture.

Now granted you said if the experiment fails greatly, but you also said "probably" these would be the results. Well, I know the "probably" results with Pennington as our QB, aspiring to between 8-9 wins a year and not more, and usually an injury every other year. If he doesn't get those injuries, then I really don't think he can maintain the 8-9 wins a year pace, because he needs a soft schedule to get that. With the schedule we have this year, if Pennington really was a good QB, we'd have at least 2-3 more wins at this point of the season, and make a real push for 11 or more wins. The reason this team was projected to do so poorly is because nobody thought we had a QB. If Chad really is a good QB, that excuse goes out the window and the team has to be projected higher.

[Maxman]

And, if the experiment fails greatly, the consequences CAN be dire.

Again, I am raising from a purely hypothetical point, but I believe these to be psooible reults-

a) You lose the veteran faction of your locker room on what they perceive is a playoff run, which you aborted on them

Clemens fails miserably and is scarred beyond hope and you set him back psychologically, rather than phasing him into the offense when he is ready.

c) Free Agents see what Mangini did to Chad, in what they PERCEVE as being a good year, being yanked and tell the Jets. "No thank you, I want to be in an environment where I feel I won't be yanked around on a whim.

Are any of those worth it?

Those are all good points. But the veterans are all going to be cut anyhow, lol.

I am willing to compromise. Wait until they lost to the Vikings then make the move. Seriously I am okay with giving Chad 7 losses before pulling him out.

[Scott Dierking]

Those are all good points. But the veterans are all going to be cut anyhow, lol.

I am willing to compromise. Wait until they lost to the Vikings then make the move. Seriously I am okay with giving Chad 7 losses before pulling him out.

That may be a fair compromise based on his performance.

[ECURB]

Kellen Clemens will win based on this picture alone...

[serphnx]

I said 2 weeks ago that the change needed to be made within a week or 2 after the Bears game or not at all. At this point, it really is unfair to Clemens and it's too late. We are still in the playoff hunt, by the time we get 7 losses the season is almost or is over. There is no point throwing Clemens out there after you've already given up on the season, because then the rest of the team is going to quit, and he will look even worse than he should. At least if you make the change a few weeks ago, there is enough time left in the season that the players will play the game. We're probably going to get the loss to Miami, and I think we will beat the Vikings next week, so we will be 8-7 going into Oakland. That's probably not good enough for the playoffs, but just letting the team give up seems pointless too. Just let Pennington finish the season and then cut him in the off-season.

[Boozer76]

And, if the experiment fails greatly, the consequences CAN be dire.

Again, I am raising from a purely hypothetical point, but I believe these to be psooible reults-

a) You lose the veteran faction of your locker room on what they perceive is a playoff run, which you aborted on them

Clemens fails miserably and is scarred beyond hope and you set him back psychologically, rather than phasing him into the offense when he is ready.

c) Free Agents see what Mangini did to Chad, in what they PERCEVE as being a good year, being yanked and tell the Jets. "No thank you, I want to be in an environment where I feel I won't be yanked around on a whim.

Are any of those worth it?

a) Bullspit. The coach comes out and gives a statement that the QB has not been getting it done, and they were going for a change. The standard public statement announcement. He doesn't say we wanna give the kid some reps, he says he is looking to improve the performance at the position whether he means it or not. It sends a message that NOBODY is immune from being benched if they play like sh*t, regardless of how much they are making.

b)Bullspit #2. Pass blocking has been very solid all year. this whole "sacrring the kid for life mentality" is ridiculous. If playing a couple live games scars him then he doesn't deserve to be in the NFL.

c) Complete and utterly ridiculous Bullspit #3. Perceived as a good year!!!?? You won't find anyone in the NFL who will look at Chad's number and perceive them to be good. They're not that stupid. Do you think FA's are going to shy away from signing with DEN because they pulled their QB, who was nearly an MVP the year before, in the hunt for a playoff spot? Please??

[Scott Dierking]

a) Bullspit. The coach comes out and gives a statement that the QB has not been getting it done, and they were going for a change. The standard public statement announcement. He doesn't say we wanna give the kid some reps, he says he is looking to improve the performance at the position whether he means it or not. It sends a message that NOBODY is immune from being benched if they play like sh*t, regardless of how much they are making.

b)Bullspit #2. Pass blocking has been very solid all year. this whole "sacrring the kid for life mentality" is ridiculous. If playing a couple live games scars him then he doesn't deserve to be in the NFL.

c) Complete and utterly ridiculous Bullspit #3. Perceived as a good year!!!?? You won't find anyone in the NFL who will look at Chad's number and perceive them to be good. They're not that stupid. Do you think FA's are going to shy away from signing with DEN because they pulled their QB, who was nearly an MVP the year before, in the hunt for a playoff spot? Please??

Boozer, we are on this board to proffer opinions. If your opinions are any more valid than mine, please state your case.

All I offered was conjecture. if you don't agree with it fine. Thanks for the rebuttal.

[DHJF]

You see, this is why Dierking is one of the best posters on this board. Objectivity. And his ability to put it into a language everybody (even Patsie pukes) can understand.

Bravo, SD. I got your back.

[Barton]

Barton-Do you trust Mangini?

Do you trust Mangini to put this team in teh best position to win?

Do you believe that Mangini has the pulse of this team better than you?

please answer those questions, and I can proceed with you.

Mangini used Pennington to start the season, to set the tempo and his coaching career off on the right foot. Chad was definetly the best choice to start out the season for sure.

The players on this team arent dumb. They'll say the right things, but I think they know we can get a better performance out of Chad, and they all know Kellen was drafted for a reason.

Mangini used Chad to find the pulse of his team and control it. Good job by Eric. But it might be time to make a switch a week from now. And honestly, who is gonna call out our Coach about it? Vilma? Not his style. Coles might, and nobody else on the offense or defense is linked to Chad, nobody!

[Scott Dierking]

You see, this is why Dierking is one of the best posters on this board. Objectivity. And his ability to put it into a language everybody (even Patsie pukes) can understand.

Bravo, SD. I got your back.

DHJF-With all due respect, it is the mass that makes this board great.

I only slightly contribute to that. Thanks for the words though.

[Scott Dierking]

Mangini used Pennington to start the season, to set the tempo and his coaching career off on the right foot. Chad was definetly the best choice to start out the season for sure.

The players on this team arent dumb. They'll say the right things, but I think they know we can get a better performance out of Chad, and they all know Kellen was drafted for a reason.

Mangini used Chad to find the pulse of his team and control it. Good job by Eric. But it might be time to make a switch a week from now. And honestly, who is gonna call out our Coach about it? Vilma? Not his style. Coles might, and nobody else on the offense or defense is linked to Chad, nobody!

Barton, I am willing to see where Chad takes us next week. That is only fair, and it is all any player should ask.

[Barton]

a) Bullspit. The coach comes out and gives a statement that the QB has not been getting it done, and they were going for a change. The standard public statement announcement. He doesn't say we wanna give the kid some reps, he says he is looking to improve the performance at the position whether he means it or not. It sends a message that NOBODY is immune from being benched if they play like sh*t, regardless of how much they are making.

b)Bullspit #2. Pass blocking has been very solid all year. this whole "sacrring the kid for life mentality" is ridiculous. If playing a couple live games scars him then he doesn't deserve to be in the NFL.

c) Complete and utterly ridiculous Bullspit #3. Perceived as a good year!!!?? You won't find anyone in the NFL who will look at Chad's number and perceive them to be good. They're not that stupid. Do you think FA's are going to shy away from signing with DEN because they pulled their QB, who was nearly an MVP the year before, in the hunt for a playoff spot? Please??

Exactly.

But I'll just say somethin about #2, which was a huge reach by scott.

How badly do you expect Clemens to be beaten up in 2 frickin games? LOL. Not to mention, our Oline has been very good at pass protecting all season long. If Clemens would be scarred beyond hope, then guess what? He is not a real NFL QB either. So seeing Clemens play will answer some important questions.

[Boozer76]

Boozer, we are on this board to proffer opinions. If your opinions are any more valid than mine, please state your case.

All I offered was conjecture. if you don't agree with it fine. Thanks for the rebuttal.

So you are telling me that you perceive Pennington to be having a good year? Seriously. You think he's having a good year. What i'd like to do is line up all the people who were screaming about benching Testaverde in 2001 and compare that list to the ones who defend chad today. I'd be willing to bet that both lists would have the majority of the same people on it. So why the discrepancy? Because Chad is a nice guy? Because people feel bad about his injury? chad is playing like crap. Chad has shown a definate pattern of not coming through in the clutch. Chad is NOT a leader. he talks a good game and says all the right things, but he is not a leader on the field. He is just a very average to bad QB.

[DHJF]

DHJF-With all due respect, it is the mass that makes this board great.

I only slightly contribute to that. Thanks for the words though.

Dierk,

To quote you, "we are on this board to proffer opinions." Just giving my opinion. Deal with it!

[Boozer76]

Barton, I am willing to see where Chad takes us next week. That is only fair, and it is all any player should ask.

why? How many chances are you people going to give him??

[Scott Dierking]

why? How many chances are you people going to give him??

Since I don't make the coaching decisions, my opinion will reside with what Eric Mangini decides is best for the team, until he proves he is incapable of making these types of decsions. he has earned that respect from me.

I really can't make an educated decision without more of an inside view of the team. Anyone who tells you they can, is whistling in the dark.

[Scott Dierking]

why? How many chances are you people going to give him??

And by "you people", do you mean Jet fans?

Am I some form of leper, if we don't share the same opinion?

[#27TheDominator]

Exactly.

But I'll just say somethin about #2, which was a huge reach by scott.

How badly do you expect Clemens to be beaten up in 2 frickin games? LOL. Not to mention, our Oline has been very good at pass protecting all season long. If Clemens would be scarred beyond hope, then guess what? He is not a real NFL QB either. So seeing Clemens play will answer some important questions.

It's not getting beaten up, it's losing confidence and getting bad habits because the qb is not ready. Think of every time that you see Eli Manning duck his head and heave the ball off his back foot. That's the kind of crap you get when you use a qb that isn't ready. He doesn't have to be scarred beyond hope, just have a developmental setback. We all agree he doesn't give us the best chance to win, so playing him is to help his development. Unless you think the staff owes the fans a chance to see if he's ready.

[Scott Dierking]

Exactly.

But I'll just say somethin about #2, which was a huge reach by scott.

How badly do you expect Clemens to be beaten up in 2 frickin games? LOL. Not to mention, our Oline has been very good at pass protecting all season long. If Clemens would be scarred beyond hope, then guess what? He is not a real NFL QB either. So seeing Clemens play will answer some important questions.

Barton, I have not had the opportunity to talk with one Eric Mangini.

maybe one of his goals is to conytinue some forward momentum by this team heading into 2007. Maybe, again maybe, he feels that going in at 9-7 into the off season creates a platform for him to use to get them to the next level.

Maybe, again maybe, he thinks that a digression at the end of the year because of a qb change will slightly veer his program off.

i don't know. Again, I havent talked to the man. But I do think he knows this team, and knows football than some of the sages here.

just maybe.

[Jet27]

Barton, I have not had the opportunity to talk with one Eric Mangini.

maybe one of his goals is to conytinue some forward momentum by this team heading into 2007. Maybe, again maybe, he feels that going in at 9-7 into the off season creates a platform for him to use to get them to the next level.

Maybe, again maybe, he thinks that a digression at the end of the year because of a qb change will slightly veer his program off.

i don't know. Again, I havent talked to the man. But I do think he knows this team, and knows football than some of the sages here.

just maybe.

SD..these are opinions...Now based on fact...many more "better" (excuse the language I was only a LB) than the Jets NFL teams in the past and present have made the switch at the QB position..that is a fact. The only reason it's not done now (in the Jets case) is because of somewhere in the vicinity of $65 million dollars!!!! (maybe a little less after he had to take a pay cut). This is a team sport. not a one man sport. If one on your team is not performing you have to put the next guy in...that's it...its not complicated at all and that's the way it has always been. Get over it Chad is not the answer (anymore).. I know it's a hard pill to swallow.

[Boozer76]

And by "you people", do you mean Jet fans?

Am I some form of leper, if we don't share the same opinion?

Leper? No. Afflicted with some form of disease that allows yourself to be tortured over and over with mediocrity and disappointment? Yeah, it seems that way.

Here's the bottom line- I would be completely content with a losing season if that season means progress towards the goal of winning a SB. Chad is an obstacle to that goal IMO. Just as much, if not even more so, as Herm Edwards was an obstacle. I seriously can't stand to see him trot out on the field as our starter. It makes me sick that so many Jets fans want to give this guy countless chances and countless excuses. Our pisspoor D has given us a chance to win almost every game this year. When they hold CLE to 20 points, we should win that game. When they hold CHI to 10, we should win that game. When they hold BUF to 17, we should win that game.

Chad has NEVER come through for us and pulled one out while facing adversity in a game. Hell, the only true comback he ever orchestrated was against JAX in a losing season. Not once has Chad been the guy to look at his teammates and tell them to jump on his shoulders. This isn't even about armstrength, it's about the fact that he is a pisspoor leader who clams up when faced with difficulty. Chad is like a 1980's Hyundai. Yeah, it can get you from point A to B from time to time, but you know damn well it was going to break down and disappoint you right when you absolutely had to be somewhere. I have absolutely had it with that ******* on this team. I love the Jets. Plain and simple. I am a Jets fan. I am not a Chad Pennington fan. Feel good stories of mediocrity can happen elsewhere for all I care. I have no sypathy for him, he hurts my team. I don't give 2 craps that he was injured twice, that's football. He was paid handsomely for it. Call me an ******* for feeling that way, but I'm an ******* who cares alot more about the name on the helmet than the name on the back of the jersey.