The Official Discuss The Debate (BZ-TX) Thread

[JETSFAN5180]

TX brings NOTHING to the table in any debate or thread.

All he does is bash the Jets he continuously relents to this tactic instead of debating and showing you his true football knowledge which is NADA.

He jumps on the Patriots bandwagon after they win and wants us all to think hes football genius who just so happens to be a Patriots fan.YEA RIGHT

[PFSIKH]

TX brings NOTHING to the table in any debate or thread.

All he does is bash the Jets he continuously relents to this tactic instead of debating and showing you his true football knowledge which is NADA.

He jumps on the Patriots bandwagon after they win and wants us all to think hes football genius who just so happens to be a Patriots fan.YEA RIGHT

He has brought it, just BZ does not argue the facts.

He tries to use Tex's words against him. Tex is either an idiot and his saying Mangini is brilliant is wrong. Or he is correct and his other statements, i.e. the less then positive ones, have to be taken in to account also. Cannot have it both ways.

[Boozer76]

- The 3/4 Defense is working and will work better in 2007 - Why Zulidamus" Because you said so.

Since it seems stats are what you need to believe that part, here's my post that completely went unnoticed by you. The 3-4 D is working and it is getting better and better. It will be our strongest aspect of this team next year.

As to the Defensive argument, BZ can put that right to bed.

If you take our D over the last 9 games, here's the average:

200 yds passing, 125 yds rushing, 16 points.

The first 3 games were not very good, nor would I have expected them to be given that we have mediocre personnel fit for a 4-3 D learning an entirely new 3-4. Now I'm sure Tx will try to argue strength of schedule, but the fact is our D is head and shoulders better than it was last year. Every aspect of our team is better than it was last year for that matter, and we have either the same players or rookies filling in the voids. Do we have a ferocious D? Not at all, but the Pats NEVER did either. They had a smart D that focused on not allowing points. That's exactly what we're doing now and it's working. This D is only going to get better witgh a couple small improvements here and there. And BTW, those points are not taking into consideration the 3 times I can think of where Chad turned the ball over giving the opposition possession within the red zone already. When Chad doesn't turn the ball over like that we are giving up a paltry 13.5 points a game.

[PFSIKH]

Since it seems stats are what you need to believe that part, here's my post that completely went unnoticed by you. The 3-4 D is working and it is getting better and better. It will be our strongest aspect of this team next year.

Booz you make a great point. As I, Tex, Alk, Gainzo and Garb have said, the Jets are headed in the right direction. The D is getting better.

However, going from 4-12 to 8-6 (w/weak schedule) to greatness in 2007 (w/tough schedule) is a large leap. Especially, one based on assumptions you will find a RB and the 2007 draft class will be a success as BZ made.

There are signs the Jets are going to be better. Whether that equates to greatness in 2007 is another matter altogether. With what you know now, not factoring in draft, FA and life. Looking at the 2007 schedule, do you think the Jets with Chad or Clemens can achieve greatness?

[Alk]

Since it seems stats are what you need to believe that part, here's my post that completely went unnoticed by you. The 3-4 D is working and it is getting better and better. It will be our strongest aspect of this team next year.

Originally Posted by Boozer76

As to the Defensive argument, BZ can put that right to bed.

If you take our D over the last 9 games, here's the average:

200 yds passing, 125 yds rushing, 16 points.

The first 3 games were not very good, nor would I have expected them to be given that we have mediocre personnel fit for a 4-3 D learning an entirely new 3-4. Now I'm sure Tx will try to argue strength of schedule, but the fact is our D is head and shoulders better than it was last year. Every aspect of our team is better than it was last year for that matter, and we have either the same players or rookies filling in the voids. Do we have a ferocious D? Not at all, but the Pats NEVER did either. They had a smart D that focused on not allowing points. That's exactly what we're doing now and it's working. This D is only going to get better witgh a couple small improvements here and there. And BTW, those points are not taking into consideration the 3 times I can think of where Chad turned the ball over giving the opposition possession within the red zone already. When Chad doesn't turn the ball over like that we are giving up a paltry 13.5 points a game.

There are some major holes in that post right there. I'll elaborate a little later on.

[Alk]

As to the Defensive argument, BZ can put that right to bed.

If you take our D over the last 9 games, here's the average:

200 yds passing, 125 yds rushing, 16 points.

The first 3 games were not very good, nor would I have expected them to be given that we have mediocre personnel fit for a 4-3 D learning an entirely new 3-4. Now I'm sure Tx will try to argue strength of schedule, but the fact is our D is head and shoulders better than it was last year. Every aspect of our team is better than it was last year for that matter, and we have either the same players or rookies filling in the voids. Do we have a ferocious D? Not at all, but the Pats NEVER did either. They had a smart D that focused on not allowing points. That's exactly what we're doing now and it's working. This D is only going to get better witgh a couple small improvements here and there. And BTW, those points are not taking into consideration the 3 times I can think of where Chad turned the ball over giving the opposition possession within the red zone already. When Chad doesn't turn the ball over like that we are giving up a paltry 13.5 points a game.

You say the defense is improving and when you show those stats for the last 9 games (200 yds. passing 125 yds. rushing and 16 ppg) it seems very impressive. The reason I'm not impressed however is I dug a little deeper...

Your last 9 opponents:

Miami - 20th. overall offense 16.3 ppg 99.9 ryds/g 211 pyds/g

Detroit - 25th. overall offense 17.5 ppg 69.8 ryds/g 234.5 pyds/g

Cleveland - 29th. overall offense 16.1 ppg 79.8 ryds/g 187.4 pyds/g

New England - 13th. overall offense 22.9 ppg 120.1 ryds/g 208.2 pyds/gm

Chicago - 15th. overall offense 28.1 ppg 119.1 ryds/g 204.4 pyds/g

Houston - 28th. overall offense 16.1 ppg 100 ryds/g 180.9 pyds/g

Green Bay - 9th. overall offense 19 ppg 108.6 ryds/g 231.9 pyds/g

Buffalo - 31st. overall offense 18.9 ppg 99.7 ryds/g 161 pyds/g

Minnesota - 14th. overall offense 18.1 ppg 118.6 ryds/g 206.1 pyds/g

So in the past 9 weeks, you have faced exactly one offense that was even in the top 10 yet faced five offenses that were in the bottom 1/3 of the league. I took the liberty to average out these nine teams' offensive stats.

PPG - 19.2

Rush yds/g - 101.5 The Jets are giving up nearly 25 more yds. per game than these teams' combined average.

Pass yds/g - 202.8 Again they're giving up more than the average.

The only thing that looks impressive after you break things down is the ppg but the fact is that seven of those nine teams are in the bottom half of the league in ppg.

You say the defense is improving, I say you played the big guns in the early part of the season and the defense got blown up and would still get blown up if it faced one of them this week.

[PatsFanTX]

He has brought it, just BZ does not argue the facts.

He tries to use Tex's words against him. Tex is either an idiot and his saying Mangini is brilliant is wrong. Or he is correct and his other statements, i.e. the less then positive ones, have to be taken in to account also. Cannot have it both ways.

For crying out loud, somebody on this message board got it.

The next debate should be between PFSIKH and JonEJet.

That would be funny as hell.

[BP]

A quick recap of Max warming up Tex before the big debate with BZ

InhfN89VSm8

[docdhc]

The debate has been good, BZ and TX have both scored their points, although I think BZ's have been a little stronger. The fact is though, both guys are taking some tough positions to defend, because its hard to deny the JETS are a team on the rise, just based on the turnaround this season, and its also hard to deny that the Pats are still good, and should still be good next year with BB and Brady. I think the debate would be more interesting focusing on more specific topics, like Chad being a championship QB, or who had the better draft, stuff like that, rather than the broad topic of whether the JETs are moving in the right direction when it seems obvious that they are.

[Maxman]

The debate has been good, BZ and TX have both scored their points, although I think BZ's have been a little stronger. The fact is though, both guys are taking some tough positions to defend, because its hard to deny the JETS are a team on the rise, just based on the turnaround this season, and its also hard to deny that the Pats are still good, and should still be good next year with BB and Brady. I think the debate would be more interesting focusing on more specific topics, like Chad being a championship QB, or who had the better draft, stuff like that, rather than the broad topic of whether the JETs are moving in the right direction when it seems obvious that they are.

doc --

agreed. but think of it like this. this is our first debate. it is homecoming weekend. i needed an easy game on the schedule. the alumni never want to see a loss.

bz is just doing what we asked. sometimes the schedule is easy. but you are what your record says you are.

this is something i would like to keep doing. and we will get more specific topics as we go along. just needed to get it rolling 1st.

[docdhc]

I agree with you, I wasn't meaning to be critical of the format. In fact I think its one of the best ideas I've seen on any of the Jet boards. I was just making a suggestion for next time. Both participants have put a lot of time and thought into it and should be commended. I have enjoyed reading it and keep up the good work Max.

[Maxman]

I agree with you, I wasn't meaning to be critical of the format. In fact I think its one of the best ideas I've seen on any of the Jet boards. I was just making a suggestion for next time. Both participants have put a lot of time and thought into it and should be commended. I have enjoyed reading it and keep up the good work Max.

No, I didn't take it that you were being critical. And I do think this has some potential. Even during the draft and free agency. Those topics will certainly be a little more clear cut. WHY signing player X will help the Jets. Something like that will be good and will also be fun to read after the fact (to see who was right).

I will start a thread after this debate is over. To pick new topics. It has been mentioned before but debating if Chad should be the starting QB and things like that will be pretty fun.

ALSO -- we can allow more than 2 people in these threads. So we might have to introduce tag teams at some point!

[docdhc]

Well, if you don't need a thousand plus posts to participate I would be interested.

[Maxman]

Well, if you don't need a thousand plus posts to participate I would be interested.

Doesn't matter how many posts you have. Just as long as you can commit to posting while that thread is open.

# of posts is not an indication of "football smarts". Please see Exhibit A.

[Boozer76]

Booz you make a great point. As I, Tex, Alk, Gainzo and Garb have said, the Jets are headed in the right direction. The D is getting better.

However, going from 4-12 to 8-6 (w/weak schedule) to greatness in 2007 (w/tough schedule) is a large leap. Especially, one based on assumptions you will find a RB and the 2007 draft class will be a success as BZ made.

There are signs the Jets are going to be better. Whether that equates to greatness in 2007 is another matter altogether. With what you know now, not factoring in draft, FA and life. Looking at the 2007 schedule, do you think the Jets with Chad or Clemens can achieve greatness?

Thanks for the reply. I don't predict greatness for next year, I predict improvement. That improvement may not equate into wins/losses, but the team undoubtedly will be better. In regards to next year;'s schedule, sure it looks tough now. But I think there is one definate in today's parity driven NFL. you cannot forecast a team's performance next year based on this year's results. The schedule might not be as tough as it looks. It could also be twice as hard.

[Boozer76]

You say the defense is improving and when you show those stats for the last 9 games (200 yds. passing 125 yds. rushing and 16 ppg) it seems very impressive. The reason I'm not impressed however is I dug a little deeper...

Your last 9 opponents:

Miami - 20th. overall offense 16.3 ppg 99.9 ryds/g 211 pyds/g

Detroit - 25th. overall offense 17.5 ppg 69.8 ryds/g 234.5 pyds/g

Cleveland - 29th. overall offense 16.1 ppg 79.8 ryds/g 187.4 pyds/g

New England - 13th. overall offense 22.9 ppg 120.1 ryds/g 208.2 pyds/gm

Chicago - 15th. overall offense 28.1 ppg 119.1 ryds/g 204.4 pyds/g

Houston - 28th. overall offense 16.1 ppg 100 ryds/g 180.9 pyds/g

Green Bay - 9th. overall offense 19 ppg 108.6 ryds/g 231.9 pyds/g

Buffalo - 31st. overall offense 18.9 ppg 99.7 ryds/g 161 pyds/g

Minnesota - 14th. overall offense 18.1 ppg 118.6 ryds/g 206.1 pyds/g

So in the past 9 weeks, you have faced exactly one offense that was even in the top 10 yet faced five offenses that were in the bottom 1/3 of the league. I took the liberty to average out these nine teams' offensive stats.

PPG - 19.2

Rush yds/g - 101.5 The Jets are giving up nearly 25 more yds. per game than these teams' combined average.

Pass yds/g - 202.8 Again they're giving up more than the average.

The only thing that looks impressive after you break things down is the ppg but the fact is that seven of those nine teams are in the bottom half of the league in ppg.

You say the defense is improving, I say you played the big guns in the early part of the season and the defense got blown up and would still get blown up if it faced one of them this week.

Actually, the Jets are allowing less ppg than the average of those teams and less passing yardage than their average. They give up 20 more rushing yards. Math is not your strong suit ALK

As to youre argument, sure it can be made. But that same argument can be made of every D in the NFL. Is CHI's D so dominant because they play in the NFC north? Have the offenses we have faced played mostly top tier D's, meaning their ppg and ypg might be lower overall than realistically expected had they played middle tier D's all season? The bottom line is you play the team on the schedule and you do what you have to in order to win the game. I have had the pleasure (or agony depending on how you look at it) of watching this team for years. I know how this D has funcrtioned in detail under the Herm era. There is a dramatic and marked improvement this year over the past 5 years. The players are almost always in position to make the play, they tackle well, and as individuals they are playing far above a level they ever had before (with the exception of Vilma). As I said in my previous post, this D is not a great one, they are by no means a shutdown kick your ass type D ala BAL. But what they do is gameplan to limit the points that the opponent is going to put on the board, and they do a hell of a job at that. You should be very familiar with thta strategy, you've been watching your team do it succesfully for the past 5 years. We all know what it resulted in for you.

[PatsFanTX]

doc --

agreed. but think of it like this. this is our first debate. it is homecoming weekend. i needed an easy game on the schedule. the alumni never want to see a loss.

bz is just doing what we asked. sometimes the schedule is easy. but you are what your record says you are.

Are you making fun of me here?

[Alk]

Actually, the Jets are allowing less ppg than the average of those teams and less passing yardage than their average. They give up 20 more rushing yards. Math is not your strong suit ALK

I knew they were giving up less than the average points but for some reason I read your post and thought I saw 225 passing yards per game, that was my mistake.

[Thor99]

So we might have to introduce tag teams at some point!

Oh, boy.

[shawn306]

Are you making fun of me here?

I think Max just likened you to SMU facing Texas.

[BP]

Bump for BZ

[BwanaZulia]

Wow.. what a blast from the past.

I would like to say I was the begining of his downfall.

BZ

[Irish Jet]

TX won that debate, Just sayin.

[BwanaZulia]

TX won that debate, Just sayin.

Sorry, like Michigan and Florida, no recounts.

BZ

[Garb]

TX TOTALLY won that debate - but since it's a Jets Fan Board - and delusion runs supreme - BZ won.

[BwanaZulia]

TX TOTALLY won that debate - but since it's a Jets Fan Board - and delusion runs supreme - BZ won.

A Pats fan sticking up for another Pats fan.... hell freezing over.

BZ