Who Won The Debate

[PatsFanTX]

Yeah, like you would admit it if he did.

WTF Husker, are you saying I didn't?

[SouthernJet]

Sure I would.

I was actually looking for a good debate. I came out strong citing NFL history and making points. TX just kept trying to drag the debate from one thing to the next to the next. He couldn't stay on topic or rebut any of the points I made.

In the end, his best rebuttal was that he didn't think the numbers I was using were good enough.

I wish it had been closer and he had actually had an argument.

That being said, it is VERY hard to argue that the Jets are not improving and won't keep improving. The thing is, TX picked the topic because of all his BS banter around here and his "same ole Jets" talk.

BZ

You did a great job and I think won also. But Tex did a hell of a job also especially considering he was on enemy turf.

Take your victory in Mangine-era Jets fashion and just hand the ball to the ref after you scored. Its always best to act like you have been to the endzone before.

Great job to both.

Very enjoyable.

One of my favorite posters Sperm Edwards needs to debate someone.

[BwanaZulia]

We should start thinking of next debates and who should be in them.

Pro & Con New Stadium

QB Rating - Valid or Not?

Pro Bowl Selection: Fact or Fiction?

2007: Chad or Clemmens

Herm: A Great Coach or the Greatest Coach?

BZ

[Garb]

this is a Jets site. Even if a Pats fan came up with real, solid, irrefutable arguments, Jets fans would vote for the Jets anyway.

so this kind of wasn't fair to begin with.

Bingo! We got Bingo! - Troy Brown

[PFSIKH]

Sure I would.

I was actually looking for a good debate. I came out strong citing NFL history and making points. TX just kept trying to drag the debate from one thing to the next to the next. He couldn't stay on topic or rebut any of the points I made.

In the end, his best rebuttal was that he didn't think the numbers I was using were good enough.

I wish it had been closer and he had actually had an argument.

That being said, it is VERY hard to argue that the Jets are not improving and won't keep improving. The thing is, TX picked the topic because of all his BS banter around here and his "same ole Jets" talk.

BZ

Are you bipolar?

That was you. Tex gave you the harder schedule combined with Chad's crappy 6-18 record against top Ds and you side stepped and came out with a, "yeah but Tex said."

You never answered that question.

[Sharrow]

It was as if BZ had been waiting for this debate his whole life.

[Preston Howley III]

Green Pride has reared it's ugly head. Facts be damned!

"You're breaking my heart, baby."

[BwanaZulia]

Are you bipolar?

That was you. Tex gave you the harder schedule combined with Chad's crappy 6-18 record against top Ds and you side stepped and came out with a, "yeah but Tex said."

You never answered that question.

I guess the Pats fans are having reading problems. I took each and every one of his points and came back against it.

Go for a re-read, it might be worth your time and you could learn something.

BZ

[PFSIKH]

I guess the Pats fans are having reading problems. I took each and every one of his points and came back against it.

Go for a re-read, it might be worth your time and you could learn something.

BZ

PPPuuuhhhlllleeeeeaaaasssseeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tex said:

First off, PennyBoy is 2-2 in the playoffs with both "wins" coming in first round Wild Card playoff games. After 6 years, I would hardly call PennyBoy a "winner" when it comes to the playoffs.

His 5-15 record against top 10 defenses is now 6-18 updated throught the Vikings game:

2006: 3-4 W: NE; BUF; MI L: NE; BUF; CHI; JAX

2005: 0-1 L: JAX

2004: 1-5 W: BUF L: NEx2; PITTx2; BUF;

2003: 0-4 L: NE; MI; BUF; PHI

2002: 2-4: W: MI; IND L: OAKx2; JAX; CLEV

Your response:

So what you are saying is, although Chad has never proved he is a elite QB, he has a winning percentage and can win on the road in the playoffs.

Sounds good enough to me.

You do not answer Tex's point. Chad's W/L record has little relevance here and his record is nowhere near being great.

Tex said:

To expand on PennyBoy's 6-18 record.

As of right now, 9 of the 14 established games next year are against teams with top 10 scoring defenses. If the standings stay the same, add Jax and Denver to that mix.

How can the Jets achieve greatness in 2007 when their QB is a .333 performer against top 10 defenses.

Will PennyBoy take some kind of pill during the off season and then all of a sudden start beating good defensive teams? He could be 4-7 or 3-8 before playing the rest of his schedule which include Dallas and Philadelphia.

Your response:

First of all defenses come and go, I mean, the Patriots were a top ten defense last year and now... not so much. Last year, Tampa Bay had a great defense. Now? Next year, the Jags could have a horrible defense.

The Bears have a great defense right? Yet they can get blown out of the water by a crap team like Tampa.

You must get off this Chad topic. Chad is one of the many weapons that the Jets have. You have admitted that he over-achieved this year, so why would next year, with more time to be healthy, learn the system, get better protection, have a better running game would he not do better?

You did not answer anything. First, as Tex would show later, the Patriots defense did not slip this year as it got better, but you dismissed that due to a weak schedule.

The point is Chad's record against Top defenses when coupled with next year's schedule could have upto 11. Your argument is nothing but hope and praying that all those Top Ds will fall off.

Answer the question BZ. All your arguments had holes and when Tex ripped them apart, you went to the"but look what Tex said." defense.

2007 Greatness and Moving in the Right direction can be mutually exclusive of the other and that is what Tex said. You just ignored it and looked a fool.

[PatsFanTX]

PPPuuuhhhlllleeeeeaaaasssseeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tex said:

First off, PennyBoy is 2-2 in the playoffs with both "wins" coming in first round Wild Card playoff games. After 6 years, I would hardly call PennyBoy a "winner" when it comes to the playoffs.

His 5-15 record against top 10 defenses is now 6-18 updated throught the Vikings game:

2006: 3-4 W: NE; BUF; MI L: NE; BUF; CHI; JAX

2005: 0-1 L: JAX

2004: 1-5 W: BUF L: NEx2; PITTx2; BUF;

2003: 0-4 L: NE; MI; BUF; PHI

2002: 2-4: W: MI; IND L: OAKx2; JAX; CLEV

Your response:

So what you are saying is, although Chad has never proved he is a elite QB, he has a winning percentage and can win on the road in the playoffs.

Sounds good enough to me.

You do not answer Tex's point. Chad's W/L record has little relevance here and his record is nowhere near being great.

Tex said:

To expand on PennyBoy's 6-18 record.

As of right now, 9 of the 14 established games next year are against teams with top 10 scoring defenses. If the standings stay the same, add Jax and Denver to that mix.

How can the Jets achieve greatness in 2007 when their QB is a .333 performer against top 10 defenses.

Will PennyBoy take some kind of pill during the off season and then all of a sudden start beating good defensive teams? He could be 4-7 or 3-8 before playing the rest of his schedule which include Dallas and Philadelphia.

Your response:

First of all defenses come and go, I mean, the Patriots were a top ten defense last year and now... not so much. Last year, Tampa Bay had a great defense. Now? Next year, the Jags could have a horrible defense.

The Bears have a great defense right? Yet they can get blown out of the water by a crap team like Tampa.

You must get off this Chad topic. Chad is one of the many weapons that the Jets have. You have admitted that he over-achieved this year, so why would next year, with more time to be healthy, learn the system, get better protection, have a better running game would he not do better?

You did not answer anything. First, as Tex would show later, the Patriots defense did not slip this year as it got better, but you dismissed that due to a weak schedule.

The point is Chad's record against Top defenses when coupled with next year's schedule could have upto 11. Your argument is nothing but hope and praying that all those Top Ds will fall off.

Answer the question BZ. All your arguments had holes and when Tex ripped them apart, you went to the"but look what Tex said." defense.

2007 Greatness and Moving in the Right direction can be mutually exclusive of the other and that is what Tex said. You just ignored it and looked a fool.

Wow, PFSIKH completely owned BZ.

[BwanaZulia]

You do not answer Tex's point. Chad's W/L record has little relevance here and his record is nowhere near being great.

TX doesn't have a point to be made about the topic. That is the point.

The topic is talking about whether or not the Jets can achieve greatness in 2007 and beyond. The FACTs are the Chad has a winning percentage, a good QB rating and is an accurate passer who has won in the playoffs. You can try and discount that as much as you can, but it is true. There is no question of it.

My point to counter TXs bad attempt to make this a "Chad is Bad" argument is that Chad is good enough to take this team into the playoffs and beyond. He has proved that, his record shows that, his stats show that.

You did not answer anything. First, as Tex would show later, the Patriots defense did not slip this year as it got better, but you dismissed that due to a weak schedule.

The point is Chad's record against Top defenses when coupled with next year's schedule could have upto 11. Your argument is nothing but hope and praying that all those Top Ds will fall off.

Answer the question BZ. All your arguments had holes and when Tex ripped them apart, you went to the"but look what Tex said." defense.

2007 Greatness and Moving in the Right direction can be mutually exclusive of the other and that is what Tex said. You just ignored it and looked a fool.

Ok, here are TX's "questions" and I will answer each one (again) just so you can get it.

TX: How can the Jets achieve greatness in 2007 when their QB is a .333 performer against top 10 defenses.

The Jets can achieve greatness in 2007 (and beyond) with Chad because his record with Jets, his winning percentage and his playoff record.

These QB stats are good enough to win games on the road, in the AFC East and in the playoffs.

Career:

QB Rating: 89.2

Completion %: 65.3

TD/INT: 70/46

That is over 59 starts, over 11,500 yards.

Your "Top Defense" argument would hold water if and only if Chad had a losing percentage. Since he is a winning QB (won more games as a starter) it completely rebuts your stats. That is over 59 games and 7 season. You can post it all you want, but if a quarterback over his career leads his team to more wins than losses, does it accurately and shows he can manage the game and lead his team, that is good enough to win in the future.

TX: Will PennyBoy take some kind of pill during the off season and then all of a sudden start beating good defensive teams?

No, he will continue to improve coming off a major surgery, get more comfortable with the offensive system and be a better quarterback next year than this year. That will translate into more wins next year.

So, there you have it. Those were his two questions. Answered.

BZ

[BwanaZulia]

Wow, PFSIKH completely owned BZ.

Amazing how all that wit didn't add up to one bit of your ability to make a cohesive argument.

BZ

[PFSIKH]

BZ you miss the point again.

The point.

Chad vs Top 10 Defenses: 6-18

Next year's schedule: 9 of 14 teams have a Top 10 D.

How does that equal greatness?

Chad's career .543 winning percentage is far from great. His performance historically is pathetic. Even this year's 'career' year against Top 10 D's, which ironically enough is his worst year, is below .500.

Where is the greatness?

[BwanaZulia]

BZ you miss the point again.

The point.

Chad vs Top 10 Defenses: 6-18

Next year's schedule: 9 of 14 teams have a Top 10 D.

How does that equal greatness?

Chad's career .543 winning percentage is far from great. His performance historically is pathetic. Even this year's 'career' year against Top 10 D's, which ironically enough is his worst year, is below .500.

Where is the greatness?

Ahh... YOU now missing the point (again and again and again).

Never, ever, ever have I said Chad is "great" (well, maybe once or twice in 2002).

What I have said, believe and his record and stats show is that he is a good quarterback, above average who can lead a team to win.

Again, if you want to make the entire argument about Chad you can go ahead (TX tried and failed) but it is not. It is about the overall direction of the Jets in 2007 and beyond.

You are smart enough to know that an above average QB can get in and win you a Super Bowl. The history of the NFL shows that.

BZ

[PFSIKH]

Ahh... YOU now missing the point (again and again and again).

Never, ever, ever have I said Chad is "great" (well, maybe once or twice in 2002).

What I have said, believe and his record and stats show is that he is a good quarterback, above average who can lead a team to win.

Again, if you want to make the entire argument about Chad you can go ahead (TX tried and failed) but it is not. It is about the overall direction of the Jets in 2007 and beyond.

You are smart enough to know that an above average QB can get in and win you a Super Bowl. The history of the NFL shows that.

BZ

The argument is not whether Chad is a functioning NFL QB, but can the Jets achieve greatness in 2007.

For all his nice stats, Chad has done very poorly against Top Ds. In 2007, that is what your schedule is filled with.

Chad has had his worst season against a weak schedule. We are to believe, that Chad an above average QB, your words, with a history of playing crappy against Top Ds will all of a sudden transform into a proficient QB? What happened 11 days ago with the playoffs on the line and a non-playoff team with a decent D came to your rented stadium? Chad returned to his shell and handed the Bills points as your improved D got run over.

Again, where is the greatness in 2007?

[BwanaZulia]

The argument is not whether Chad is a functioning NFL QB, but can the Jets achieve greatness in 2007.

For all his nice stats, Chad has done very poorly against Top Ds. In 2007, that is what your schedule is filled with.

Chad has had his worst season against a weak schedule. We are to believe, that Chad an above average QB, your words, with a history of playing crappy against Top Ds will all of a sudden transform into a proficient QB? What happened 11 days ago with the playoffs on the line and a non-playoff team with a decent D came to your rented stadium? Chad returned to his shell and handed the Bills points as your improved D got run over.

Again, where is the greatness in 2007?

Chad is coming off his second shoulder surgery, in a brand new offense and with a young rookie offensive line. All of those things point to Chad's numbers this year and he is still winning.

Next year the offensive line gets out of "rookie" status, Chad has another season in the system and to get back to 100%. There is nothing pointing to any reason why he would be worse next year.

BZ

[CTM]

Where's an option for tie? This was like a presidential debate where both guys kind of talked and didn't do that much to rebut the others points. Good points made on both sides I think and good idea for the board.

If I didn't have my own opinion, I'm not sure that either arguement would've convinced me so I'd vote tie....

[Maxman]

Where's an option for tie? This was like a presidential debate where both guys kind of talked and didn't do that much to rebut the others points. Good points made on both sides I think and good idea for the board.

If I didn't have my own opinion, I'm not sure that either arguement would've convinced me so I'd vote tie....

Good point. I should have included a tie option. Will definitely do that for the next debate. I appreciate the feedback!

[Garb]

How does win a debate with the wrong facts?

Here's an example:

First of all defenses come and go, I mean, the Patriots were a top ten defense last year and now... not so much. Last year, Tampa Bay had a great defense. Now? Next year, the Jags could have a horrible defense.

Um.....the Patriots are ranked 4th in run defense and 6th in overall defense. Um....that would make them a top ten defense.

[PatsFanTX]

Ahh... YOU now missing the point (again and again and again).

No, you are missing the point and avoiding the question.

Let's see if I can simplify for you.

Pennyboy has a career winning percentage of .333 against top 10 defensive teams. That is a fact.

Next year, the Jets are playing 11 games against those teams based on this years results. That is another fact.

So without DRASTIC improvement from PennyBoy against top 10 defenses, the Jets would be looking at a 3-8 record just in those 11 games.

And just to give PennyBoy the benefit of doubt, let's say his form holds true when playing bottom-feeding teams, and he goes 5-0 in the reamaining games.

That would give the Jets a 8-8 record in 2007.

How is an 8-8 record "significant" improvement for the Jets in 2007?

Go ahead and spin away.

[jetfan4hire]

why is there so much emphasis on Chad Pennington. He is a capable qb, but not a great qb. You dont need a great qb to have a great team, and its been proven that you dont need one to win a SB. The structure and overall balance is much more important to a teams success. If this wasnt the case, Peyton Manning would have a a lot of Super Bowl rings. This point should have been hammered home during the debate. Chads record vs good and bad teams isnt really relavant in my opinion because the team around him is different than it was in past years, and will be different in years to come. The more decisive factor in the Jets success will be Manginis ability to keep the Jets consistant and improving from year to year by aquiring players through the draft and FA that fit well into the system he is running. Pennington isnt the kind of player that can put his team on his back and carry them into the post season, but he can manage the game as long as there is production from other positions on both sides of the ball

[PatsFanTX]

How does win a debate with the wrong facts?

Here's an example:

First of all defenses come and go, I mean, the Patriots were a top ten defense last year and now... not so much. Last year, Tampa Bay had a great defense. Now? Next year, the Jags could have a horrible defense.

Um.....the Patriots are ranked 4th in run defense and 6th in overall defense. Um....that would make them a top ten defense.

Garb, please don't slow down the progress that BZ is making.

At least he attempted to use some "facts" to support his arguement there.

So what if he was completely wrong?

[BwanaZulia]

No, you are missing the point and avoiding the question.

Let's see if I can simplify for you.

Pennyboy has a career winning percentage of .333 against top 10 defensive teams. That is a fact.

Next year, the Jets are playing 11 games against those teams based on this years results. That is another fact.

So without DRASTIC improvement from PennyBoy against top 10 defenses, the Jets would be looking at a 3-8 record just in those 11 games.

And just to give PennyBoy the benefit of doubt, let's say his form holds true when playing bottom-feeding teams, and he goes 5-0 in the reamaining games.

That would give the Jets a 8-8 record in 2007.

How is an 8-8 record "significant" improvement for the Jets in 2007?

Go ahead and spin away.

Wow... now you try to show up with your same argument and see if flies again?

The problem with your hypothesis is it is multi-tiered and not fully qualified. It is like saying "Tom Brady lost to the Dolphins this year, a sub .500 team so will not be able to beat any teams who have a record over .500 next year".

Maybe with a bit more qualification...

1) Pennyboy has a career winning percentage of .333 against top 10 defensive teams.

I would love to debate this more. Could you please provide the games, teams, scores and what criteria you used for naming them top 10 defense (the entire year? up till that point? pts allowed? yards allowed?) Please include weighting for strength of schedule since that matters so much to you.

Next year, the Jets are playing 11 games against those teams based on this years results.

Once you provide the first answer stats, it will be easier to judge the validity of this statement.

BZ

[BwanaZulia]

why is there so much emphasis on Chad Pennington. He is a capable qb, but not a great qb. You dont need a great qb to have a great team, and its been proven that you dont need one to win a SB.

Because that is their only and last argument left and even thought they weigh it so heavily, the won't concede it is only part.

They lost the bad coaching argument.

They lost the "can never beat the Patriots" argument.

They lost the "your defense will never improve" argument.

They lost the "Patriots will be great forever" argument.

Now they are down to their one and only. Chad.

BZ

[jetfan4hire]

Because that is their only and last argument left and even thought they weigh it so heavily, the won't concede it is only part.

They lost the bad coaching argument.

They lost the "can never beat the Patriots" argument.

They lost the "your defense will never improve" argument.

They lost the "Patriots will be great forever" argument.

Now they are down to their one and only. Chad.

BZ

why dont you just concede that Chad isnt Tom Brady and point to T.Dilfer as evidance that a QB is only 1 piece of the puzzle. ( for the record Pennington is much more capable than Dilfer, imo). Afterall ,isnt the overall agenda to debate that the Jets are headed for success in the years to come? I look at Mangini to build my argument around

[BwanaZulia]

why dont you just concede that Chad isnt Tom Brady and point to T.Dilfer as evidance that a QB is only 1 piece of the puzzle. ( for the record Pennington is much more capable than Dilfer, imo). Afterall ,isnt the overall agenda to debate that the Jets are headed for success in the years to come? I look at Mangini to build my argument around

Tom Brady is a better quarterback than Chad Pennington. That is true. It is fact. It is proved.

That is not their argument, though. They just don't think anyone who is NOT Tom Brady will ever win a Super Bowl and no amount of the history of the NFL will stop them from believing it.

BZ

[PatsFanTX]

1) Pennyboy has a career winning percentage of .333 against top 10 defensive teams.

I would love to debate this more. Could you please provide the games, teams, scores and what criteria you used for naming them top 10 defense (the entire year? up till that point? pts allowed? yards allowed?) Please include weighting for strength of schedule since that matters so much to you.

PFSIKH was the first to provide these numbers. Below, is the same analysis that was done by a Jets fan.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, I thought I would do some research.

There is always talk on here about Chad and how he does against top defences, so I thought I would do some research, without offering an opinion, and then let the debate begin.

I checked all of the games Chad has started in since 2002. I looked at whether the Jets won the game or lost. Then, I looked at whether the team they played against was statistically ranked in the top ten of defences (using total points allowed as the key stat).

Here are the results

2002

Record as a starter: 8-5

Record against top 10 D's: 1-3 (W-Mia. L-Jax, Cle, Oak)

Playoffs:

Record 1-1 (both Indy and Oakland were ranked in the top ten)

2003

Record as a starter: 4-6

Record against top 10 D's: 0-4 (L-Phil, Buff, NE, Mia)

2004

Record as a starter: 8-5

Record against top 10 D's: 1-4 (W-Buf. L-NE, Buf, Pitt, NE)

Playoffs:

Record 1-1

Record against top 10 D's: 0-1 (L-Pitt)

2005

Record as a starter: 1-2

Record against top 10 D's: 0-1 (L-Jax)

2006

Record as a starter: 7-6

Record against top 10 D's: 2-3 (W-Mia, NE. L-NE, Jax, Chi)

Total record against top ten D's

Regular Season: 4-15

Playoffs: 1-2

Source: http://www.nfl.com/stats/teamsort/N...ar?sort_col_1=4

and

http://www.databasefootball.com/leagues/leaguelist.htm

Okay guys, those are the numbers. Go ahead and debate.

[PatsFanTX]

Same information from a Jets fan for Tom Brady:

TOM BRADY

2001

Record as a starter: 11-4

Record against top ten D's: 0-1 (L-St.L)

Playoff record 3-0

Playoff against top ten D's: 2-0 (W-Pitt, St. L)

2002

Record as a starter: 9-7

Record against top ten D's: 0-2 (L-Mia, Oak)

2003

Record as a starter: 14-2

Record against top ten D's: 9-0 (W-Buff (2), Mia (2), Jets (2), Den, Dal, Phi

Playoff record: 3-0

Playoff against top ten: 1-0 (W-Car)

2004

Record as a starter: 14-2

Record against top ten D's: 6-1 (W-Jets (2), Buf (2), Pitt, Bal

Playoff record: 3-0

Playoff against top ten D's: 2-0 (W-Pitt, Phi)

2005

Record as a starter: 10-6

Record against top ten D's: 2-3 (W-Tam, Pit. L-Car, Den, Indy)

Playoff record: 1-1

Record against top ten D's: 1-1 (W-Jax. L-Den)

Sorry, did not look at this year.

FINAL STATS

Record against top ten in regular season: 17-7

Record against top ten in playoffs: 6-1

[jetfan4hire]

PFSIKH was the first to provide these numbers. Below, is the same analysis that was done by a Jets fan.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, I thought I would do some research.

There is always talk on here about Chad and how he does against top defences, so I thought I would do some research, without offering an opinion, and then let the debate begin.

I checked all of the games Chad has started in since 2002. I looked at whether the Jets won the game or lost. Then, I looked at whether the team they played against was statistically ranked in the top ten of defences (using total points allowed as the key stat).

Here are the results

2002

Record as a starter: 8-5

Record against top 10 D's: 1-3 (W-Mia. L-Jax, Cle, Oak)

Playoffs:

Record 1-1 (both Indy and Oakland were ranked in the top ten)

2003

Record as a starter: 4-6

Record against top 10 D's: 0-4 (L-Phil, Buff, NE, Mia)

2004

Record as a starter: 8-5

Record against top 10 D's: 1-4 (W-Buf. L-NE, Buf, Pitt, NE)

Playoffs:

Record 1-1

Record against top 10 D's: 0-1 (L-Pitt)

2005

Record as a starter: 1-2

Record against top 10 D's: 0-1 (L-Jax)

2006

Record as a starter: 7-6

Record against top 10 D's: 2-3 (W-Mia, NE. L-NE, Jax, Chi)

Total record against top ten D's

Regular Season: 4-15

Playoffs: 1-2

Source: http://www.nfl.com/stats/teamsort/N...ar?sort_col_1=4

and

http://www.databasefootball.com/leagues/leaguelist.htm

Okay guys, those are the numbers. Go ahead and debate.

so what you are presenting is that Penninton and the Jets best record vs. top 10 defenses came this season under Manginis first year as coach. How does this help your argument?

[PatsFanTX]

so what you are presenting is that Penninton and the Jets best record vs. top 10 defenses came this season under Manginis first year as coach. How does this help your argument?

Very impressive.

PennyBoy's winning percentage went from .333 all the way up to .400 under Mangini.

I'm sure .400 will really get it done next year for the Jets.

[BwanaZulia]

Very impressive.

PennyBoy's winning percentage went from .333 all the way up to .400 under Mangini.

I'm sure .400 will really get it done next year for the Jets.

Wait, shouldn't you include the Vikings game?

2006

Record as a starter: 8-6

Record against top 10 D's: 3-3 (W-Mia, NE. L-NE, Jax, Chi, MIN)

They were a top 10 defense before Chad put up 26 pts on them.

If that is true, didn't they go from .333 -> .500

So they are NOT improving?

BZ

[PatsFanTX]

Wait, shouldn't you include the Vikings game?

So they are NOT improving?

BZ

That was done the week prior to the Vikings game, so yes, that game should be included.

So now you are pleased that PennyBoy loses just as many games as he wins against top 10 defenses?

Yea, that type of performance will take the Jets places in the playoffs.

[GimmeShelter]

Very impressive.

PennyBoy's winning percentage went from .333 all the way up to .400 under Mangini.

I'm sure .400 will really get it done next year for the Jets.

How's Brady doing against winning teams post Weiss era?

[jetfan4hire]

Very impressive.

PennyBoy's winning percentage went from .333 all the way up to .400 under Mangini.

I'm sure .400 will really get it done next year for the Jets.

why is there so much emphasis on Chad Pennington. He is a capable qb, but not a great qb. You dont need a great qb to have a great team, and its been proven that you dont need one to win a SB. The structure and overall balance is much more important to a teams success. If this wasnt the case, Peyton Manning would have a a lot of Super Bowl rings. This point should have been hammered home during the debate. Chads record vs good and bad teams isnt really relavant in my opinion because the team around him is different than it was in past years, and will be different in years to come. The more decisive factor in the Jets success will be Manginis ability to keep the Jets consistant and improving from year to year by aquiring players through the draft and FA that fit well into the system he is running. Pennington isnt the kind of player that can put his team on his back and carry them into the post season, but he can manage the game as long as there is production from other positions on both sides of the ball. The Jets record vs. top 10 defenses will improve as the Jets team improves as a whole. The fact that Penningtons best record vs. top 10 defenses came this year in Manginis first season as coach while in the midst of rebuilding says a lot as to where this team is heading;)

[BwanaZulia]

That was done the week prior to the Vikings game, so yes, that game should be included.

So now you are pleased that PennyBoy loses just as many games as he wins against top 10 defenses?

Yea, that type of performance will take the Jets places in the playoffs.

So you entire argument just went down the crapper.

Chad IS getting better against top 10 defenses and there is no reason to think that another year in the system, another year healthy and another year with the rookie offensive line that he should do better.

.333 -> .500 -> .750

Oh wait.. but if we win against the Dolphins (top 10 defense) he would be:

4-3 in 2006.

Hmmm.

BZ