Some Official Combine Averages

[R44]

Most people on this board are savvy football fans, but I see a lot of physcopaths on other sites that kick and scream and boo if their favorite team drafts a RB, WR or DB that runs a 4.6 or higher or a linebacker that runs a 4.8, mistakingly thinking these are very poor times.

Many only want safeties that run 4.45's or WR's that run 4.3's, even in round 7!.....Reality is most N.F.L. players don't have great "track speed", despite what the media tends to put forth.....So I just wanted to post some official Combine averages to show what more "realistic" expectations of prospects should be:

Quarterbacks: Size 6032, 222 pounds.....40 Times -- 4.90 (hand timed) --- 4.87 (electronic time)

Running Backs: 5104, 211.....40 TImes 4.57 (HT) -- 4.56 (ET)

Wide Receivers: 6007, 203.....40 Times -- 4.58 (HT) -- 4.57 (ET)

Tight Ends: 6045, 254 pounds.....40 Times: 4.8 (HT) -- 4.78 (ET)

Defensive Ends: 6032, 263 pounds.....40 Times: 4.89 (HT) -- 4.88 (ET)

Defensive Tackles: 6031, 303 pounds.....40 Times: 5.19 (HT & ET)

Inside Linebacker: 6010, 238 pounds....40 Times: 4.79 (HT) -- 4.76 (ET)

Outside Linebacker: 6011, 234 pounds....40 Times: 4.76 (HT) -- 4.74 (ET)

Cornerbacks: 5108, 193 pounds.....40 Times: 4.52 (HT) -- 4.47 (ET)

Free Safety: 5115, 204.....40 Times: 4.61 (HT) -- 4.57 (ET)

Strong Safety: 6005, 212....40 Times: 4.57 (HT) -- 4.54 (ET)

***Prior to 2005, these numbers were actually a bit higher -- average strong safeties (for example) came in around 4.67....but Indy replaced it's old track with a new, faster track.

***Wide receivers: This should end the mainstream media's stupid theories that most WR's in the N.F.L. run sub 4.5's.

***Cornerbacks: That's a total of 31 players. It's weird, a bunch of players blazed the track, but quite a few ran high 4.6's and low 4.7's, which skewed everything upward?

***Strong safeties look faster than usual, but that's a small sample (6 prospects), skewed lower by 2 players.

[Sperm Edwards]

Did Arizona even have a single WR capable of sniffing a 4.5 the past few years (forget about a 4.4 or 4.3)? I friggin' WISH we had a Fitz/Boldin/Johnson trio here for a few seasons. I think Fitz ran a 4.63 and Boldin a 4.70. Johnson is no speed demon himself.

So if it's only so important at WR where they DO run 40 yards somewhat frequently, how relevant is it at RB where most don't get more than 4-5 yards before they're taken to the ground (and those are the above-average ones).

Give me a WR who runs crisp routes, doesn't drop the ball, and has some juking kind of moves that allows a split-second of separation. I'll take him any day.

Give me a RB who breaks tackles & can sense when there's nothing there & just take the 3 yards in front of him instead of stutter-stepping & waiting for the 1/50 chance that a hole magically appears out of nowhere.

You can go down the list with this stuff. Great post, R44.

[Irish Jet]

Give me a WR who runs crisp routes, doesn't drop the ball, and has some juking kind of moves that allows a split-second of separation. I'll take him any day.

You basically just described Coles and Cotchery. They however are both possesion WR's.

To be a legit deep threat IMO, you need to either have speed or size. Otherwise it's very difficult.

[PakiJet]

You basically just described Coles and Cotchery. They however are both possesion WR's.

To be a legit deep threat IMO, you need to either have speed or size. Otherwise it's very difficult.

thats when WE draft Limas Sweed:)

[Sperm Edwards]

You basically just described Coles and Cotchery. They however are both possesion WR's.

To be a legit deep threat IMO, you need to either have speed or size. Otherwise it's very difficult.

Well they can't all be slow & short. But then you can't throw deep when your QB has no time to throw, can't throw that far, or both.

In 2006 I'm sure Tom Brady WISHED he had Coles & Cotchery. Or even ONE of them.

[Maxman]

You basically just described Coles and Cotchery. They however are both possesion WR's.

To be a legit deep threat IMO, you need to either have speed or size. Otherwise it's very difficult.

Irish --

Here is how it works. You can post in a thread started by R44 but NOT BEFORE you acknowledge his greatness. Please make the necessary adjustments and do not make eye contact with him until you get a PM saying it is okay to do so.

[R44]

Thanks for the reply, SE. You're wise and you are correct. Arizona has great receivers and none is a blazer....I think Boldin ran like a 4.79 @ the Combine.

What made me think about this?

A few days ago an agent of a small school superstar (WR Curtis Hamilton, Western Kentucky) sent his kids' Pro Day times to me at DD.com and showed Curtis ran 4.58.

My first thought was "the kid is sunk" with those times.....but when I thought about it a little more, I figured as long as he ran on a reasonable track, 4.58 is actually "average" for a N.F.L. WR prospect, contrary to the media myth that all DB, RB and WR prospects run sub 4.5's.

Now Hamilton is still a long shot, but 4.58 isn't that bad, in reality?

P.S: Thanks Max....but just let everyone know you are just kidding....I love posting at JN, but DD.com eats up so much computer time, it's tough.....Also, one of the reasons I haven't posted much, is my computer is so fouled up, I can't enter JN from the front page -- (computer crashes), so I surf in from the baseball forum.....Also, don't worry about me abusing "smileys", they don't work for me here, either LOL

.

[Sperm Edwards]

Thanks for the reply, SE. You're wise and you are correct. Arizona has great receivers and none is a blazer....I think Boldin ran like a 4.79 @ the Combine.

What made me think about this?

A few days ago an agent of a small school superstar (WR Curtis Hamilton, Western Kentucky) sent his kids' Pro Day times to me at DD.com and showed Curtis ran 4.58.

My first thought was "the kid is sunk" with those times.....but when I thought about it a little more, I figured as long as he ran on a reasonable track, 4.58 is actually "average" for a N.F.L. WR prospect, contrary to the media myth that all DB, RB and WR prospects run sub 4.5's.

Now Hamilton is still a long shot, but 4.58 isn't that bad, in reality?

P.S: Thanks Max....but just let everyone know you are just kidding....I love posting at JN, but DD.com eats up so much computer, it's tough.

BTY, one of the reasons I haven't posted much, is my computer is so fouled up, I can't enter JN from the front page -- (computer crashes), so I surf in from the baseball forum.....Also, don't worry about me abusing "smileys", they don't work for me here, either LOL

.

Wasn't 4.58 Wes Welker's time? And before he was catching 112 passes from Tom Brady, he was a friggin' kick returner with that 40-time.

[Maxman]

R44 --

I see your point here and it is a good one. Everyone says so and so ran a 4.6 he is done. The reality from these #s paints a different picture.

Taking this topic in a slightly different direction though, tell me if you think I am off base here. I find the DE and DL #s to be impressive. For those to be the averages is just kind of scary, these big boys can move.

Anyhow am I off base in saying that the gap has gotten closer over the past 10 - 15 years -- the gap being the difference in speed between a DT and a WR? I know the WRs have gotten quicker but I would have to say that 10 years ago the DT's were lucky to finish the 40 yards, nevermind have the finish time start with a 5.

I don't have any way to prove it. But I would think that the big boys have gotten bigger and faster, more so than the skill players. Not sure if I conveyed my thought clearly or not.

[Maxman]

P.S: Thanks Max....but just let everyone know you are just kidding....I love posting at JN, but DD.com eats up so much computer time, it's tough.....Also, one of the reasons I haven't posted much, is my computer is so fouled up, I can't enter JN from the front page -- (computer crashes), so I surf in from the baseball forum.....Also, don't worry about me abusing "smileys", they don't work for me here, either LOL

.

No worries man. We will send a tech out to your house with a new PC in the morning.

[Sperm Edwards]

JetNation. The site that pretends to care.

[R44]

SE, 2004 was the first year we really started doing draft daddy and that was Wes Welkers' class.....I thought he ran even worse than that 4.58, which was a huge problem for me when trying to rank him.

Wes was an absolute superstar @ Texas Tech (set several 1-a records), but mostly as do everything weapon -- played RB, WR, and special teams.

I loved his talent, but how do you project a kid that's 5' 8" and runs a 4.6-something?

You knew he was great back then, but would he even get a fair shot?

Best thing Wes did, was "seize the moment" with Chargers as a undrafted free agent -- returning 2 kicks for TD's in his first pre-season...from there, the 40 times were slowly erased. Had he not returned those kicks because the opposing kicker had a stronger leg (touchbacks), he might be sitting on bar stool in Oklahoma telling everyone he could've been a N.F.L. star if he got a chance and his friends would probably all be lauging at him?

**************

Max, I think you are correct in the sense that the "fastest" DB's, WR's and RB's are not getting any faster than they used to be back in Deione Sanders' era....but the "fastest" big men (particularly the DE's and TE's) are putting up better and better times each year -- i.e. Vernon Davis, Gohlston, ect...

Some will say training schools (i.e Parisisi's in Jersey) could be the answer here.

Why?

The very fast guys like Deion Sanders, Don Beebe, Andre Rison, Willie Gault and many other WR's, DB's and RB's always knew how to run the 40 yard dash real fast, because they ran track in high school and college and know all the mechanics of running timed sorints....

but back in that era (pre-1996, or so) how many defensive lineman, linebacker or tight ends even knew how to set their feet and hands in an attempt to maximize their 40 times?

Can't say for sure, but the training school theory seems like a reasonable theory as to why the "bigger guys" are running faster than then they used to...

[R44]

SE, 2004 was the first year we really started doing draft daddy and that was Wes Welkers' class.....I thought he ran even worse than that 4.58, which was a huge problem for me when trying to rank him.

Wes was an absolute superstar @ Texas Tech (set several 1-a records), but mostly as do everything weapon -- played RB, WR, and special teams.

I loved his talent, but how do you project a kid that's 5' 8" and runs a 4.6-something?

You knew he was great back then, but would he even get a fair shot?

Best thing Wes did, was "seize the moment" with Chargers as a undrafted free agent -- returning 2 kicks for TD's in his first pre-season...from there, the 40 times were slowly erased. Had he not returned those kicks because the opposing kicker had a stronger leg (touchbacks), he might be sitting on bar stool in Oklahoma telling everyone he could've been a N.F.L. star if he got a chance and his friends would probably all be lauging at him?

**************

Max, I think you are correct in the sense that the "fastest" DB's, WR's and RB's are not getting any faster than they used to be back in Deione Sanders' era....but the "fastest" big men (particularly the DE's and TE's) are putting up better and better times each year -- i.e. Vernon Davis, Gohlston, ect...

Some will say training schools (i.e Parisisi's in Jersey) could be the answer here.

Why?

The very fast guys like Deion Sanders, Don Beebe, Andre Rison, Willie Gault and many other WR's, DB's and RB's always knew how to run the 40 yard dash real fast, because they ran track in high school and college and know all the mechanics of running timed sorints....

but back in that era (pre-1996, or so) how many defensive lineman, linebacker or tight ends even knew how to set their feet and hands in an attempt to maximize their 40 times?

Can't say for sure, but the training school theory seems like a reasonable theory as to why the "bigger guys" are running faster than then they used to...

[Sperm Edwards]

Best thing Wes did, was "seize the moment" with Chargers as a undrafted free agent -- returning 2 kicks for TD's in his first pre-season...from there, the 40 times were slowly erased. Had he not returned those kicks because the opposing kicker had a stronger leg (touchbacks), he might be sitting on bar stool in Oklahoma telling everyone he could've been a N.F.L. star if he got a chance and his friends would probably all be lauging at him?

I guarantee that's true!

[Sperm Edwards]

Best thing Wes did, was "seize the moment" with Chargers as a undrafted free agent -- returning 2 kicks for TD's in his first pre-season...from there, the 40 times were slowly erased. Had he not returned those kicks because the opposing kicker had a stronger leg (touchbacks), he might be sitting on bar stool in Oklahoma telling everyone he could've been a N.F.L. star if he got a chance and his friends would probably all be lauging at him?

I guarantee that's true!

[Maxman]

SE, 2004 was the first year we really started doing draft daddy and that was Wes Welkers' class.....I thought he ran even worse than that 4.58, which was a huge problem for me when trying to rank him.

Wes was an absolute superstar @ Texas Tech (set several 1-a records), but mostly as do everything weapon -- played RB, WR, and special teams.

I loved his talent, but how do you project a kid that's 5' 8" and runs a 4.6-something?

You knew he was great back then, but would he even get a fair shot?

Best thing Wes did, was "seize the moment" with Chargers as a undrafted free agent -- returning 2 kicks for TD's in his first pre-season...from there, the 40 times were slowly erased. Had he not returned those kicks because the opposing kicker had a stronger leg (touchbacks), he might be sitting on bar stool in Oklahoma telling everyone he could've been a N.F.L. star if he got a chance and his friends would probably all be lauging at him?

**************

Max, I think you are correct in the sense that the "fastest" DB's, WR's and RB's are not getting any faster than they used to be back in Deione Sanders' era....but the "fastest" big men (particularly the DE's and TE's) are putting up better and better times each year -- i.e. Vernon Davis, Gohlston, ect...

Some will say training schools (i.e Parisisi's in Jersey) could be the answer here.

Why?

The very fast guys like Deion Sanders, Don Beebe, Andre Rison, Willie Gault and many other WR's, DB's and RB's always knew how to run the 40 yard dash real fast, because they ran track in high school and college and know all the mechanics of running timed sorints....

but back in that era (pre-1996, or so) how many defensive lineman, linebacker or tight ends even knew how to set their feet and hands in an attempt to maximize their 40 times?

Can't say for sure, but the training school theory seems like a reasonable theory as to why the "bigger guys" are running faster than then they used to...

Good points. The way they workout now is a large factor as well. It isn't enough to simply be big these days. Now you have to be big and be able to bench press 225lbs over 25 times in a row.

[Maxman]

SE, 2004 was the first year we really started doing draft daddy and that was Wes Welkers' class.....I thought he ran even worse than that 4.58, which was a huge problem for me when trying to rank him.

Wes was an absolute superstar @ Texas Tech (set several 1-a records), but mostly as do everything weapon -- played RB, WR, and special teams.

I loved his talent, but how do you project a kid that's 5' 8" and runs a 4.6-something?

You knew he was great back then, but would he even get a fair shot?

Best thing Wes did, was "seize the moment" with Chargers as a undrafted free agent -- returning 2 kicks for TD's in his first pre-season...from there, the 40 times were slowly erased. Had he not returned those kicks because the opposing kicker had a stronger leg (touchbacks), he might be sitting on bar stool in Oklahoma telling everyone he could've been a N.F.L. star if he got a chance and his friends would probably all be lauging at him?

**************

Max, I think you are correct in the sense that the "fastest" DB's, WR's and RB's are not getting any faster than they used to be back in Deione Sanders' era....but the "fastest" big men (particularly the DE's and TE's) are putting up better and better times each year -- i.e. Vernon Davis, Gohlston, ect...

Some will say training schools (i.e Parisisi's in Jersey) could be the answer here.

Why?

The very fast guys like Deion Sanders, Don Beebe, Andre Rison, Willie Gault and many other WR's, DB's and RB's always knew how to run the 40 yard dash real fast, because they ran track in high school and college and know all the mechanics of running timed sorints....

but back in that era (pre-1996, or so) how many defensive lineman, linebacker or tight ends even knew how to set their feet and hands in an attempt to maximize their 40 times?

Can't say for sure, but the training school theory seems like a reasonable theory as to why the "bigger guys" are running faster than then they used to...

Good points. The way they workout now is a large factor as well. It isn't enough to simply be big these days. Now you have to be big and be able to bench press 225lbs over 25 times in a row.

[R44]

SE, I think there are so many more like Welker out there.....

My theory is there is a percentage of N.F.L. players that are "no-brainers", in that they are so talented coming out, no one can hold them back and scouts simply can't miss them -- Peyton Manning, Randy Moss, Carson Palmer, Antonio Cromartie, Mario Williams, ect...

After that, there is next wave....that are close behind...

But I honestly believe that the last 15 spots on most N.F.L. rosters can be occupied by many of the top players in the C.F.L., Arena League or more talented released street free agents and most fans could not tell the difference.

Parcells and Belicheck, for example, realize this and make a point of constantly changing the bottom their rosters (even in season) in hopes of find a Wes Welker?

*********

Max, Mike Mayock of the N.F.L. network said proper training in the mechanics of sprints can lower 40 times considerably...maybe even 1/10th of a second?

Here's a story I don't remember happening (was too young) but have read from Gil Brandt:

Back in like early 1979 Michigan State held it's Pro Day at the gym for it's "seniors"....N.F.L. scouts called out for the Spartans top junior WR, who was playing pickup hoops at the time.....Within a matter of seconds, he ran over to the track totally unprepared and blazed a 4.28 @ 6' 3" and 225 pounds in sneakers!

That was Kirk Gibson, who re-buffed football and played baseball...

I guess in this era, Kirk Gibson would train for 3 weeks, just on his 40 time alone, and ran even faster -- so maybe the newbies aren't faster, just better trained?

P.S: Back in 1999, or so, when Randy Moss was totally dominating the N.F.L. I saw a scout tell Pro Football Weekly Moss was the "2nd best WR prospect he ever saw"....Gibson was number one -- to some who grew up watching him on the Tigers (including me) that's almost beyond belief, but probably true?

*

[R44]

SE, I think there are so many more like Welker out there.....

My theory is there is a percentage of N.F.L. players that are "no-brainers", in that they are so talented coming out, no one can hold them back and scouts simply can't miss them -- Peyton Manning, Randy Moss, Carson Palmer, Antonio Cromartie, Mario Williams, ect...

After that, there is next wave....that are close behind...

But I honestly believe that the last 15 spots on most N.F.L. rosters can be occupied by many of the top players in the C.F.L., Arena League or more talented released street free agents and most fans could not tell the difference.

Parcells and Belicheck, for example, realize this and make a point of constantly changing the bottom their rosters (even in season) in hopes of find a Wes Welker?

*********

Max, Mike Mayock of the N.F.L. network said proper training in the mechanics of sprints can lower 40 times considerably...maybe even 1/10th of a second?

Here's a story I don't remember happening (was too young) but have read from Gil Brandt:

Back in like early 1979 Michigan State held it's Pro Day at the gym for it's "seniors"....N.F.L. scouts called out for the Spartans top junior WR, who was playing pickup hoops at the time.....Within a matter of seconds, he ran over to the track totally unprepared and blazed a 4.28 @ 6' 3" and 225 pounds in sneakers!

That was Kirk Gibson, who re-buffed football and played baseball...

I guess in this era, Kirk Gibson would train for 3 weeks, just on his 40 time alone, and ran even faster -- so maybe the newbies aren't faster, just better trained?

P.S: Back in 1999, or so, when Randy Moss was totally dominating the N.F.L. I saw a scout tell Pro Football Weekly Moss was the "2nd best WR prospect he ever saw"....Gibson was number one -- to some who grew up watching him on the Tigers (including me) that's almost beyond belief, but probably true?

*

[docdhc]

Maybe speed is overrated and I realize that WR's can be very good with 4.5 and above 40 times, but a real speed burner does strike fear in the defense and stretch the field. Santana Moss was a good example, even though we didn't have a QB who could take advantage. Randy Moss is the best in the game and his speed is a big factor. I would love to see the Jets have at least one real sub 4.4 guy whether irrational or not.

[docdhc]

Maybe speed is overrated and I realize that WR's can be very good with 4.5 and above 40 times, but a real speed burner does strike fear in the defense and stretch the field. Santana Moss was a good example, even though we didn't have a QB who could take advantage. Randy Moss is the best in the game and his speed is a big factor. I would love to see the Jets have at least one real sub 4.4 guy whether irrational or not.

[Sperm Edwards]

The suggestion is not that speed is unimportant. But rather that it is not ALL-important. NFL CB's have speed also. You need more than just speed to get separation, particularly within 20-30 yards (where over 95% of all plays occur).

[Sperm Edwards]

The suggestion is not that speed is unimportant. But rather that it is not ALL-important. NFL CB's have speed also. You need more than just speed to get separation, particularly within 20-30 yards (where over 95% of all plays occur).

[docdhc]

The suggestion is not that speed is unimportant. But rather that it is not ALL-important. NFL CB's have speed also. You need more than just speed to get separation, particularly within 20-30 yards (where over 95% of all plays occur).

Yes, but I am a Jet fan, that means I have been starving for blazing speed and a cannon arm!

[docdhc]

The suggestion is not that speed is unimportant. But rather that it is not ALL-important. NFL CB's have speed also. You need more than just speed to get separation, particularly within 20-30 yards (where over 95% of all plays occur).

Yes, but I am a Jet fan, that means I have been starving for blazing speed and a cannon arm!

[Maxman]

Dennis Eck would have been happy if Gibson had chosen football instead!

[Maxman]

Dennis Eck would have been happy if Gibson had chosen football instead!

[Gibbon]

Thanks for the great info R44.

One of the things that I've often found frustrating about 40 times and people's reading of them is that they rarely take into account the weight disparity that may exist between two players at the same position. A heavier guy is typically going to be a bit slower in a straight ahead sprint, but might make up for that "lack of speed" by being able fill wholes and shed blockers more effectively. For instance teams that want a big bruising LB might be willing to sacrifice a tenth of a second in speed for a guy who doesnt go backwards at the point of attack. One of the things that makes David Harris so effective is that he is -- as you point out -- an unusual combination of size and speed. Also, people might look at a guy who is labeled an ILB who is bigger and a tenth or so slower and assume that he is an inferior athlete to a guy labeled an ILB who is a bit smaller and quicker based only on 40 times when the actual value of the player depends on what a team is looking for. A 4-3 MLB today is usually lighter and quicker -- playing side line to side line and having lots of cover responsibilities -- where a 3-4 ILB should be bigger and stronger because he will be taking on linemen and lead blockers and has more limited coverage responsibilities.

[Gibbon]

Thanks for the great info R44.

One of the things that I've often found frustrating about 40 times and people's reading of them is that they rarely take into account the weight disparity that may exist between two players at the same position. A heavier guy is typically going to be a bit slower in a straight ahead sprint, but might make up for that "lack of speed" by being able fill wholes and shed blockers more effectively. For instance teams that want a big bruising LB might be willing to sacrifice a tenth of a second in speed for a guy who doesnt go backwards at the point of attack. One of the things that makes David Harris so effective is that he is -- as you point out -- an unusual combination of size and speed. Also, people might look at a guy who is labeled an ILB who is bigger and a tenth or so slower and assume that he is an inferior athlete to a guy labeled an ILB who is a bit smaller and quicker based only on 40 times when the actual value of the player depends on what a team is looking for. A 4-3 MLB today is usually lighter and quicker -- playing side line to side line and having lots of cover responsibilities -- where a 3-4 ILB should be bigger and stronger because he will be taking on linemen and lead blockers and has more limited coverage responsibilities.

[flgreen]

You basically just described Coles and Cotchery. They however are both possesion WR's.

To be a legit deep threat IMO, you need to either have speed or size. Otherwise it's very difficult.

Actually, Coles ran a sub 4.4 40 at FSU.

That is why he was moved from RB to WR, to be a decoy for Warwick, who was everyone's darling at the time.

He never got a chance to run at the Combine, or FSU's pro day.

he was/is fast, but that isn't why he has already been paid out in the area of 32 million, with another 11 million on the table

[flgreen]

You basically just described Coles and Cotchery. They however are both possesion WR's.

To be a legit deep threat IMO, you need to either have speed or size. Otherwise it's very difficult.

Actually, Coles ran a sub 4.4 40 at FSU.

That is why he was moved from RB to WR, to be a decoy for Warwick, who was everyone's darling at the time.

He never got a chance to run at the Combine, or FSU's pro day.

he was/is fast, but that isn't why he has already been paid out in the area of 32 million, with another 11 million on the table

[bitonti]

great thread riggo

let me just add something that might seem obvious but often overlooked

if you take two players and one runs a 4.5 and the other runs a 4.7, all things being equal the 4.5 guy gets drafted higher. However let's imagine these players both play linebacker - and let's imagine that it takes the 4.5 0.5 seconds to diagnose the play but the 4.7 guy can do it in 0.2 seconds - any physical speed difference is negated by a mental lag.

[bitonti]

great thread riggo

let me just add something that might seem obvious but often overlooked

if you take two players and one runs a 4.5 and the other runs a 4.7, all things being equal the 4.5 guy gets drafted higher. However let's imagine these players both play linebacker - and let's imagine that it takes the 4.5 0.5 seconds to diagnose the play but the 4.7 guy can do it in 0.2 seconds - any physical speed difference is negated by a mental lag.

[Matt39]

What did Colston run?

[Matt39]

What did Colston run?