New York Jets Mafia Game Thread

[Doggin94it]

Or are you concerned I come back tomorrow and say Doggin is guilty?

Is it possible all your conjecture is a preemptive defense to this inevitability?

Not if you're telling the truth, because I'm innocent. I'm even happy to be lynched today to prove it, if it means the serial will kill Vic tonight. All I need is a "I agree" from every player (so the serial gets to stay hidden) and I'll even vote for myself.

Of course, if you do come back and say I'm guilty . . . well, then that's my worst fear confirmed, because it means you're scum, I'll be lynched at endgame, and the town loses.

[Pac]

Not if you're telling the truth, because I'm innocent. I'm even happy to be lynched today to prove it, if it means the serial will kill Vic tonight. All I need is a "I agree" from every player (so the serial gets to stay hidden) and I'll even vote for myself.

Of course, if you do come back and say I'm guilty . . . well, then that's my worst fear confirmed, because it means you're scum, I'll be lynched at endgame, and the town loses.

So if you're innocent why do you insist on trying to lynch a possible power role? Now I'll be the first to admit you're a far better mafia player than I am but I just can't wrap my head around the perceived benefit of wiping out a potential cop regardless of his sanity.

That's not a request to dumb it down for me because I understand what you're saying... I just don't get how that puts the town in a better position to win. Maybe it's because I KNOW I, SMC, and another player are innocent.

[SMC]

With the anniversary and the draft (the more I read and watch about Sanchez the more amped I get), I have not been up to date on this thread. Starting tomorrow I'll be back in it.

From what I've seen, I believe we should go back to the original idea of eliminating (from consideration rather than vote) the innocents and whittle the list of 10 down so we can increase the odds in cutting a Rival Player.

I'm against cutting Vicious. It doesn't make sense at the moment, and I don't know why Doggin is pushing for it. Vicious said he investigated Slats & Doggin and they came back innocent. Vicious could be an insane cop (and thus his results is untrustworthy) or one of them is the Godfather (who would come up innocent).

Are Slats & Doggin both scum? I doubt it. Lets remove them from consideration at the moment, plus me, Pac, and Vicious and see who we have to vote for.

That's it for now. I'll be in the main forum for the most of the night trolling and trying to see what UDFA the Jets sign.

[CTM]

Sure . . . because it's guaranteed that in a 16 player game Darrelle Revis is one of the Jets players? (Especially if you assume Pac is telling the truth and at least 2 of the townies are FO people)?

Look, I'm leaning towards Pac being innocent too - but if that's true, that's all the more reason to lynch Vic.

If I was scum looking to run a fake claim gambit I wouldn't choose the Jets best player to do it.. imo.. too easily countered..

I'd say I was Brandon Moore / Damien Woody or someone even more obscure

[Doggin94it]

So if you're innocent why do you insist on trying to lynch a possible power role? Now I'll be the first to admit you're a far better mafia player than I am but I just can't wrap my head around the perceived benefit of wiping out a potential cop regardless of his sanity.

That's not a request to dumb it down for me because I understand what you're saying... I just don't get how that puts the town in a better position to win. Maybe it's because I KNOW I, SMC, and another player are innocent.

Then you should be the first on the "lynch Vicious" bus.

It comes down to this. We absolutely do not have two sane cops. So, from your perspective, either Vicious is not sane (in which case we need to know that his results are not trustworthy and that the doc should be protecting you) or he's not a townie. Either way, if you're telling the truth about your own alignment, you know one thing for certain. Vicious is not a town power role.

From everyone else's perspective, the third option is that you are scum. Which means that yes, I am suggesting we lynch a potential town power role. Because if Vicious is the cop, then by the same logic, you are scum (you can't be insane, since SMC confirmed Revis). So lynching Vic has an upside for the town even if he is really the cop.

Personally, I think Vic and EY are scum teammates. But that has nothing to do with why I want Vicious lynched.

You know what the only way to solve a Gordian knot is. Cut it.

[Doggin94it]

If I was scum looking to run a fake claim gambit I wouldn't choose the Jets best player to do it.. imo.. too easily countered..

I'd say I was Brandon Moore / Damien Woody or someone even more obscure

That's a good point, and its why I pushed Bleedin to outlaw player name reveals (too easy to just demand a mass reveal and lynch anyone who is counterclaimed - basically uses game flavor to win the game, which isn't any fun at all). And its one of the reasons I'm leaning towards Pac as an innocent. But its possible they just went for it, or that Pac is a mafia role viewer. Either way, we aren't going to have any more answers tomorrow than we are today.

And today, we have a margin for error.

But I've apparently already lost this argument. Hopefully, it won't cost us the game.

[CTM]

That's a good point, and its why I pushed Bleedin to outlaw player name reveals (too easy to just demand a mass reveal and lynch anyone who is counterclaimed - basically uses game flavor to win the game, which isn't any fun at all). And its one of the reasons I'm leaning towards Pac as an innocent. But its possible they just went for it, or that Pac is a mafia role viewer. Either way, we aren't going to have any more answers tomorrow than we are today.

And today, we have a margin for error.

But I've apparently already lost this argument. Hopefully, it won't cost us the game.

Doggin, I was the first one that wanted to lynch Vic. You haven't lost an arguement with me. What I need to convince myself of is whether or not we could have two cops in this game. Cause the thing is, if we take the "by the books" course of action, lynch Vic and if he's a real cop we lynch Pac next, we guarantee ourselves a loss if both are actually cops..

I have to think the Bleedin put some kind of twist in this game, why can't it be multiple cops and multiple godfathers?

That's my problem, following the standard course of action guarantees us a loss and I don't understand how we can only have 2 power roles in a game of 16...

IF ANYONE ELSE HAS A POWER ROLE CLAIM NOW!!!

[Vicious89x]

I just am so thrown off by the fact that the second I revealed I investigated doggin he's gone all out to lynch me. Note I believe this is the 3rd time he's come after me. WP was one of my 2 scum feelings out there so I am going to go ahead and change my vote as that is where the town is exhausted. I'm beat guys, finally sitting down for an hour before bed and back to the grind, everything has gone great with the house though.

Unvote: Norway

Vote: Woody

[CTM]

If you guys thinks its the right move go for it. I am roleless but if you guys think we will get more information by lynching me than we would by lynching anybody else than fine by me.

How untown..

If you are a townie, lynching you could put us at end game tomorrow, and this is what you offer as a defense?

This post reeks actually..

[Bleedin Green]

Vote Count:

WoodyPaige (5) - Pac2566, Norway, CTM, EY, Vicious

Vicious (2) - Doggin, Jets Things

With 10 players remaining, it takes 6 to cut.

[CTM]

unvote

vote JetsThings

Bump..

I unvoted BG

[Bleedin Green]

Vote Count:

WoodyPaige (4) - Pac2566, Norway, EY, Vicious

Vicious (2) - Doggin, Jets Things

Jets Things (1) - CTM

With 10 players remaining, it takes 6 to cut.

[Norway'sWaddlingMarmaloof]

Sorry for the long absence, my freakin' monitor died Sat afternoon (right in the middle of a poker game!).

Anyway, I haven't caught up yet, but my Woody vote was just a pressure vote.

Gonna unvote until I catch up.

[SMC]

Bump..

I unvoted BG

So your choice is between Jets Thing & Woody, but Woody getting the nod?

I do agree Woody's last post is scummy. I thought we could play the odds but with the question about Vicious' results things have gotten wacky.

Below are the last 10 players. Blue is the claimed role and Green is based on Pac & Vicious investigation.

1. CTM

2. EY

3. Doggin94it (townie by Vic)

4. slats (townie by Vic)

5. WoodyPaige

6. SMC (townie by Pac)

7. Vicious89x (claimed role)

8. Jets Things

9. Norway'sWaddlingMarmaloof

10. Pac2566 (claimed role)

Note, Pac found another townie that was the Doc and doesn't want to reveal him (rightfully so).

So if we avoid the 5 that are colored, that leaves us with:

1. CTM

2. EY

3. WoodyPaige

4. Jets Things

5. Norway

There's a chance that in order to balance out the idea of the Jets having 2 cops, the Rival Superstars may have the ability to come up on an investigation as innocent. That would screw up Vicious, but not Pac because Pac actually gets names.

I have to go back to my Axis point in at least one of them are scum. Unfortunately, Doggin came up as innocent in Vicious' investigation (I say unfortunately because I think Doggin is likely scum). EY is an aggressive mafia player so he'd take out Doggin or CTM early (like he tried last game). Doggin is more calculating. CTM? I'm getting an innocent vibe. He may be duping me, but hey, it happens.

So there's 3 scum still left out there and they are in the 5 I mentioned (6 if you include Doggin). That's 50/50 odds at worst. As CTM mentioned, I hate that WP & JT are at the end because of their covert style of play. I think, for the moment, our votes should be directed at WP, JT & Norway, but I'm not confident to jump on the WP train.

I'll wait for now for more thoughts.

[CTM]

SMC, since Pac gets player names it's likely that a) there is no godfather on the scum team OR Pac is an investigator for the scum...

Pac basically claimed Terry Bradway, does anyone take exception with that claim? Does it sound familiar to anyone? Vote pac if yes..

[ZachEY]

So your choice is between Jets Thing & Woody, but Woody getting the nod?

I do agree Woody's last post is scummy. I thought we could play the odds but with the question about Vicious' results things have gotten wacky.

Below are the last 10 players. Blue is the claimed role and Green is based on Pac & Vicious investigation.

1. CTM

2. EY

3. Doggin94it (townie by Vic)

4. slats (townie by Vic)

5. WoodyPaige

6. SMC (townie by Pac)

7. Vicious89x (claimed role)

8. Jets Things

9. Norway'sWaddlingMarmaloof

10. Pac2566 (claimed role)

Note, Pac found another townie that was the Doc and doesn't want to reveal him (rightfully so).

So if we avoid the 5 that are colored, that leaves us with:

1. CTM

2. EY

3. WoodyPaige

4. Jets Things

5. Norway

There's a chance that in order to balance out the idea of the Jets having 2 cops, the Rival Superstars may have the ability to come up on an investigation as innocent. That would screw up Vicious, but not Pac because Pac actually gets names.

I have to go back to my Axis point in at least one of them are scum. Unfortunately, Doggin came up as innocent in Vicious' investigation (I say unfortunately because I think Doggin is likely scum). EY is an aggressive mafia player so he'd take out Doggin or CTM early (like he tried last game). Doggin is more calculating. CTM? I'm getting an innocent vibe. He may be duping me, but hey, it happens.

So there's 3 scum still left out there and they are in the 5 I mentioned (6 if you include Doggin). That's 50/50 odds at worst. As CTM mentioned, I hate that WP & JT are at the end because of their covert style of play. I think, for the moment, our votes should be directed at WP, JT & Norway, but I'm not confident to jump on the WP train.

I'll wait for now for more thoughts.

All good ideas ROBOCOP (come on, had to do it)

I'm starting to get uncomfortable with Jets Things. Vic wanted to investigate him which leads me to think two things...

One, that Vic is scum and 'wanted to investigate him, but didn't' is a cover up, and if allowed to live another day, he'll have someone else get in the way of this investigation, such as me, you for confirmation on Pac, or Norway or, Vic is being truthful and pointing us towards his most suspicious person.

Either way, it doesn't seem like a bad way to go.

I've made my feelings known about just about everyone else in the game thus far, so this is where I stand now.

[CTM]

All good ideas ROBOCOP (come on, had to do it)

I'm starting to get uncomfortable with Jets Things. Vic wanted to investigate him which leads me to think two things...

One, that Vic is scum and 'wanted to investigate him, but didn't' is a cover up, and if allowed to live another day, he'll have someone else get in the way of this investigation, such as me, you for confirmation on Pac, or Norway or, Vic is being truthful and pointing us towards his most suspicious person.

Either way, it doesn't seem like a bad way to go.

I've made my feelings known about just about everyone else in the game thus far, so this is where I stand now.

Then vote him, lets see what he has to say near lynch range.. If he's the SK, we let him live...

[Jets Things]

Hello nerds. Between 54 holes of golf over the weekend and an already busy morning, I'm going to have to read over a bunch of pages. I'll be reading throughout the day, probably won't be able to post anything until later this afternoon.

[Doggin94it]

Doggin, I was the first one that wanted to lynch Vic. You haven't lost an arguement with me. What I need to convince myself of is whether or not we could have two cops in this game. Cause the thing is, if we take the "by the books" course of action, lynch Vic and if he's a real cop we lynch Pac next, we guarantee ourselves a loss if both are actually cops..

I have to think the Bleedin put some kind of twist in this game, why can't it be multiple cops and multiple godfathers?

That's my problem, following the standard course of action guarantees us a loss and I don't understand how we can only have 2 power roles in a game of 16...

IF ANYONE ELSE HAS A POWER ROLE CLAIM NOW!!!

And unless Bleedin put two cops in the game, not following the standard course of action also guarantees us a loss.

First, I think it's highly unlikely we actually do have 2 cops.

But more importantly, if I'm going to lose, I want to lose to the mod's twist, not because I screwed up by overthinking it.

To me, mafia is like poker. You make the right play, and sometimes you still lose. That's fine. Because if you keep making the right play, you'll win more than you lose.

If the mafia pulls out 2 sane townie cops on the river . . . well, it's a bad beat, and more power to them. But I refuse to play afraid of that result, or to avoid the smart play because of a small possibility that it will lose us the game.

My vote stays on vicious - and will until the end of the day, deadline or no deadline, unless someone comes up with a better plan. Which I don't see happening.

[Bleedin Green]

Vote Count:

WoodyPaige (3) - Pac2566, EY, Vicious

Vicious (2) - Doggin, Jets Things

Jets Things (1) - CTM

With 10 players remaining, it takes 6 to cut.

[ZachEY]

Then vote him, lets see what he has to say near lynch range.. If he's the SK, we let him live...

Vote: Jets Things.

[Doggin94it]

SMC, since Pac gets player names it's likely that a) there is no godfather on the scum team OR Pac is an investigator for the scum...

Pac basically claimed Terry Bradway, does anyone take exception with that claim? Does it sound familiar to anyone? Vote pac if yes..

You realize that neither possibility fits your 2 cops-2 godfathers theory, right?

[CTM]

You realize that neither possibility fits your 2 cops-2 godfathers theory, right?

Yes..

[slats]

Catching up as best I can, probably off after this post until this evening.

Thoughts on leaving both Pac and Vic alive tonight and asking the doc to self protect?

I know there's a lot of angles, and I have my own ideas, but I want to hear what others have to say

I don't think this is a terrible idea. Along with it, we'd have Pac ID the doc, and have the doc confirm. That would be another feather in Pac's cap, who I'm increasingly believing in.

This way, too, Vic and Pac can each investigate someone new. Between them they've investigated four players and came up empty every time. If they each go after someone new tonight, their odds of finding someone between them increases. If either of them come up with a guilty, we lynch that player.

The downside is that the scum could let them both live, and let us continue to wrestle with this tomorrow.

Yup. I don't like what's going on right now, so I'm pretty sure I'm not going to go after Vic today, unless there's no other choice.

2 votes on WP now. I want to hear what Vic thinks about JT.

I'd be willing to push one of these guys, let the doc self protect as you say, and the SK can decide if he wants to go after one of the two, or another player, or play it safe and NO KILL.

Despite Woody's strong defense... I think he's right that if he's innocent, we get nothing from his lynch. We do need more from both him and JT, though. I agree that it's almost certain that one of them is scum.

That's your issue, guys?

You can lynch me today if every player agrees that, when I'm revealed as a townie, the SK will take out Vic tonight, that if he comes up as a sane cop you will lynch Pac tomorrow, and that if he's revealed as anything else you'll lynch Yellin.

Deal?

The big problem I have with that plan is: Do we even have three day phases left?

The smiley was a joke. Pac will not be saying CTM is guilty tomorrow. No way no how.

Another point re: SMC and Pac, linking them is dangerous and silly. Pac clearly is a finder of some sort. You know why? Cause if SMC was scum he wouldn't be Darrelle Revis, but somebody else would and would know they are lying. nobody has pointed this out.....

There's almost no question that a) Pac is a finder of some sort and SMC is innocent.

That's an excellent point. Frankly, aside from being the Jets player rep, Tony Richardson is a name that's a lot more likely to not be counter-claimed than Revis.

I'm torn on the idea of lynching Vic. My fear is that he's scum teammates with Doggin. That he named me for a little cred day one, and once that worked and no one countered, Doggin allowed himself to be named as the end game was fast approaching.

I'm not sold on that, either, of course. Because lynching Vic is a dangerous move for Doggin at that point. He'd claim that Vic would've named two innocent players rather than a teammate, and that would certainly get some traction.

Of the two cops, Vic's claim is sketchier. If he's scum, I'd push for Doggin next.

So I get the JT or Woody concept - with one of those lynched, I'd want Pac to reveal the doc, and the doc to confirm and protect himself. If Pac gets NK'd and is confirmed as cop, then Vic is the next day's lynch. If they both live, then we haggle over their investigation results tomorrow.

If we go the Woody/JT route on the lynch, we really need to be right. And AFAIC, I'd be fine if we lynched the SK between them, too. At least it would give us an extra day phase or two to sort this out.

[SMC]

A thought on Pac naming/not naming the Doc:

If Pac names the Doc, the scum have another target to NK BUT, it also decreases their chance at being successful.

This is the thing. Player X is the Doc and Pac is the investigator. The scum will target one of them with a NK, but don't know who Player X will protect. Player X should definately not say who he's protecting. Let the scum take a 50/50 shot and if they guess wrong we're in great shape. If not, they're better off but we're not dead.

Just a thought. Not a solid suggestion, but something to consider.

[Doggin94it]

Catching up as best I can, probably off after this post until this evening.

I don't think this is a terrible idea. Along with it, we'd have Pac ID the doc, and have the doc confirm. That would be another feather in Pac's cap, who I'm increasingly believing in.

This way, too, Vic and Pac can each investigate someone new. Between them they've investigated four players and came up empty every time. If they each go after someone new tonight, their odds of finding someone between them increases. If either of them come up with a guilty, we lynch that player.

Slats, run the damn numbers. If we lynch the player identified as guilty and it turns out the finder claimant was lying, we lose.

The big problem I have with that plan is: Do we even have three day phases left?

Not likely. We likely have 2. So, lynch me today, Vic dies in the night, and you lynch Pac or Yellin tomorrow. That's the only alternate plan I'll get behind, and it's not as good as the first option by a long shot (since I'm innocent).

I'm torn on the idea of lynching Vic. My fear is that he's scum teammates with Doggin. That he named me for a little cred day one, and once that worked and no one countered, Doggin allowed himself to be named as the end game was fast approaching.

I'm not sold on that, either, of course. Because lynching Vic is a dangerous move for Doggin at that point. He'd claim that Vic would've named two innocent players rather than a teammate, and that would certainly get some traction.

Well, yeah - because honestly, if I were running Vic as scum, I'd have stayed as far away from this as possible. I'd have him name two innocents (so two people are more likely to believe him) and I'd never have suggested lynching Vic in the first place.

Of the two cops, Vic's claim is sketchier. If he's scum, I'd push for Doggin next.

Ah, I see. We should lynch Vicious, and if he's scum, rather than have Pac investigate me (on my investigate from the bottom theory), we should lynch me on the off chance I'm running a gambit.

Sounds like a plan

If we go the Woody/JT route on the lynch, we really need to be right. And AFAIC, I'd be fine if we lynched the SK between them, too. At least it would give us an extra day phase or two to sort this out.

Really? How do you figure.

Again, run the damn numbers, Slats.

We have 10 players. An innocent lynch and 1 NK puts us at 8. That means, without a serial to bail us out tomorrow and unless the mafia is a 3-man team, tomorrow is endgame - we lynch an innocent, they kill one, and its 3 scum v. 3 town = game over, mafia wins.

Lynching the SK doesn't save us anything - it costs us.

This is basic math.

[Norway'sWaddlingMarmaloof]

In other words, you believe Pac - but you're not ready to say that Pac is 100% innocent who should be trusted in all situations. Because as long as Vicious is alive, you don't know. Which is why we can't leave competing finder claimants alive until endgame; if one of them is scum, and we guess wrong, we lose.

In fact, remember this exchange:

Remember, I've been pointing out the negatives of having two untested cop-claimants alive for endgame since Day 2.

We're now at endgame -1, which means that we cannot have both of these guys alive tomorrow. That's begging for a loss.

Haven't quite caught up (stoopid work!) but to this point, this is the most compelling argument to me. I've said for a while that the two roles seemed too similar (and got some flack for it!) so I do think that we should not wait until it's too late.

Such a big point in the game though, I'm going to catch up completely, and try and process before voting.

[Pac]

SMC, since Pac gets player names it's likely that a) there is no godfather on the scum team OR Pac is an investigator for the scum...

Pac basically claimed Terry Bradway, does anyone take exception with that claim? Does it sound familiar to anyone? Vote pac if yes..

Look, I appreciate the due diligence but option B would make me an idiot. I understand why you have to throw it out there but that would mean:

- I took my night 1 results and did nothing with them instead focusing on AVM. If you've been reading my posts you know who the doc is. There were a couple points where the doc started to get everyones attention which would have been a perfect opportunity to add fuel to the fire. Meanwhile I made it a point to not so much as mention them in a bad light instead focus on who I genuinely thought might be dirty.

- Night 2 I would have wasted an investigation. SMC was already high on everyones radar via the Robocop stuff and it wouldn't have been all that difficult to start that train again. With that being the case why do I investgate him? Fact of the matter is I never thought he was dirty (go back and look) and I wanted to be able to say he was clean so he can help us win!

[Pac]

A thought on Pac naming/not naming the Doc:

If Pac names the Doc, the scum have another target to NK BUT, it also decreases their chance at being successful.

This is the thing. Player X is the Doc and Pac is the investigator. The scum will target one of them with a NK, but don't know who Player X will protect. Player X should definately not say who he's protecting. Let the scum take a 50/50 shot and if they guess wrong we're in great shape. If not, they're better off but we're not dead.

Just a thought. Not a solid suggestion, but something to consider.

The doc knows I know who he is. If I'm going to name someone it may or may not be true. This would give the SK/mafia WIFOM nightmares. Do they shoot at me even though I could be protected, do thye shoot at the doc even though he could just say he'll protect me but might self protect, do they believe the name I've said, do they target someone else altogether etc.

[CTM]

Look, I appreciate the due diligence but option B would make me an idiot. I understand why you have to throw it out there but that would mean:

- I took my night 1 results and did nothing with them instead focusing on AVM. If you've been reading my posts you know who the doc is. There were a couple points where the doc started to get everyones attention which would have been a perfect opportunity to add fuel to the fire. Meanwhile I made it a point to not so much as mention them in a bad light instead focus on who I genuinely thought might be dirty.

- Night 2 I would have wasted an investigation. SMC was already high on everyones radar via the Robocop stuff and it wouldn't have been all that difficult to start that train again. With that being the case why do I investgate him? Fact of the matter is I never thought he was dirty (go back and look) and I wanted to be able to say he was clean so he can help us win!

to answer

1) If you were planning on parlaying the mafia investigator into a fake cop claim, you couldn't kill the doctor cause then you'd have no answer for your continued existence..

2) You might have investigated SMC thinking he was vig/SK especially since on day 1, he came up with robocop (deflecting away from Serial killer), and even though this is after the fact on day 2 he argued why a vig would've killed sharrow last night even though most thought he was innocent. As scum, you'd want to locate the serial killer or vig asap..

I'm inclined to believe you, but at the same time, there's plenty of angles for doing what you did

[Pac]

to answer

1) If you were planning on parlaying the mafia investigator into a fake cop claim, you couldn't kill the doctor cause then you'd have no answer for your continued existence..

2) You might have investigated SMC thinking he was vig/SK especially since on day 1, he came up with robocop (deflecting away from Serial killer), and even though this is after the fact on day 2 he argued why a vig would've killed sharrow last night even though most thought he was innocent. As scum, you'd want to locate the serial killer or vig asap..

I'm inclined to believe you, but at the same time, there's plenty of angles for doing what you did

fair enough but you're giving me to much credit lol. This is my 3rd game (first in a year) and I haven't quite mastered the art of looking 5 steps ahead.

[Doggin94it]

fair enough but you're giving me to much credit lol. This is my 3rd game (first in a year) and I haven't quite mastered the art of looking 5 steps ahead.

I can tell by the fact that you aren't voting Vicious

[CTM]

I can tell by the fact that you aren't voting Vicious

No reason to rush on that..

[Pac]

I can tell by the fact that you aren't voting Vicious

I almost did ... I just can't bring myself to after the way you jerked me around last year. Seems eerily similar to be honest. Everything you said made perfect "sense" then too.

[Doggin94it]

I almost did ... I just can't bring myself to after the way you jerked me around last year. Seems eerily similar to be honest. Everything you said made perfect "sense" then too.

Heh. This is the problem with winning as mafia. Nobody trusts you ever again.

On the plus side, maybe after this game people will trust me again