How many SB's does Shotty have to cost us?

[RutgersJetFan]

If the Schotty apologists want to believe that his current burden is a mistake prone, developing QB - that is fine. All I know is what I see. And I have watched a Jets offense for the past five years that I can correctly predict before the snap will either run or pass the ball at least 95% of the time. In my book, that puts a ridiculous burden on the QB. I think young Mr. Sanchez has done quite well with a mentally challenged OC.

^^^^^ Older version of Shane.

[RutgersJetFan]

That statement was made in Brick's 2nd year when he wasn't. If you're arguing predictive powers, i can retort with 'Dennis Dixon being a great pro prospect'..

Now you're just being like Klecko, only thinner. And dirtier too I guess.

[Larz]

rex deserves some blame as well. we all know he tells sh*tty to pound the rock. so you have marty's kid working for a caveman, you're looking at an average offense at best, and a very heavy run offense at that

no matter how you slice it, the jets will only go as far as the passing offense takes them, and it's the weak link on the team

the 3 headed monster of rex, sanchez and sh*tty are all in it together

[Bleedin Green]

I'm not saying he's a great coordinator, what I'm saying is looking at the turds we've had at QB and going, man our offense has never been top 10, and concluding it must be all schotty's fault is dim to me..

It's certainly not all his fault, but that doesn't mean he isn't making matters that much worse. Consider the guy's had 4 QBs, 2 of which we've had an opportunity to see play without Schotty as their OC. In both of those instances, the QBs played significantly better without him as their OC as with him as their OC. No matter how bad his QBs may be, why are they always so much worse when playing for him? He's hardly the only problem with this offense, but it's blatantly obvious that he certainly is a big one of them.

[CTM]

If the Schotty apologists want to believe that his current burden is a mistake prone, developing QB - that is fine. All I know is what I see. And I have watched a Jets offense for the past five years that I can correctly predict before the snap will either run or pass the ball at least 95% of the time. In my book, that puts a ridiculous burden on the QB. I think young Mr. Sanchez has done quite well with a mentally challenged OC.

Obviously that's his burden.. That's not debateable.... Pointing that out doesn't make me an apologist however. I do believe if you had Tom Moore/Bill Callahan or whomever the flavor of the month is for the message board experts was coordinating this offense the last 2 years the results would be eerily similiar, because the QB play has been inconsistant.. that's my sole point.

If Sanchez gets better, the offense will improve. Whether it improves enough is for Rex to decide, I'm confident enough in the big man to trust his judgement..

[Bleedin Green]

rex deserves some blame as well. we all know he tells sh*tty to pound the rock. so you have marty's kid working for a caveman, you're looking at an average offense at best, and a very heavy run offense at that

no matter how you slice it, the jets will only go as far as the passing offense takes them, and it's the weak link on the team

the 3 headed monster of rex, sanchez and sh*tty are all in it together

He was just as sh*tty of an OC, if not sh*ttier, his 3 years coaching under Mangini. Rex isn't at fault for how much Schotty sucks at his job. However, I do blame Rex for still employing this dipsh*t.

[RutgersJetFan]

It's certainly not all his fault, but that doesn't mean he isn't making matters that much worse. Consider the guy's had 4 QBs, 2 of which we've had an opportunity to see play without Schotty as their OC. In both of those instances, the QBs played significantly better without him as their OC as with him as their OC. No matter how bad his QBs may be, why are they always so much worse when playing for him? He's hardly the only problem with this offense, but it's blatantly obvious that he certainly is a big one of them.

Now you done did it. I hope you're ready for a slew of fallacy-laden rebuttals containing excuses with cute little 'But consider the CONTEXT' nametags on them.

[Bleedin Green]

Now you done did it. I hope you're ready for a slew of fallacy-laden rebuttals containing excuses with cute little 'But consider the CONTEXT' nametags on them.

You'd think I'd know better by now.

[CTM]

It's certainly not all his fault, but that doesn't mean he isn't making matters that much worse. Consider the guy's had 4 QBs, 2 of which we've had an opportunity to see play without Schotty as their OC. In both of those instances, the QBs played significantly better without him as their OC as with him as their OC. No matter how bad his QBs may be, why are they always so much worse when playing for him? He's hardly the only problem with this offense, but it's blatantly obvious that he certainly is a big one of them.

Pennington is lost point, as you yourself know.. In his "magical" 2008 run, that phins offense was ranked 12th in yards and 21st in points.. the jets 2008 offense was 9th in points and 16th in yards.. with basically 0 ouput for 5 games down the stretch..

[CTM]

Now you done did it. I hope you're ready for a slew of fallacy-laden rebuttals containing excuses with cute little 'But consider the CONTEXT' nametags on them.

I can't compete with you're conclusive proof of which one bullet point was Kellen Clemen's college stats versus his 8 game pro stats...

and actually I don't even care to, Rex didn't can him and I don't particularly care if he did or he didn't

[RutgersJetFan]

Pennington is lost point, as you yourself know.. In his "magical" 2008 run, that phins offense was ranked 12th in yards and 21st in points.. the jets 2008 offense was 9th in points and 16th in yards.. with basically 0 ouput for 5 games down the stretch..

I can't compete with you're conclusive proof of which one bullet point was Kellen Clemen's college stats versus his 8 game pro stats...

See?

[T0mShane]

Every QB that Schottenheimer coaches, except Favre who told him to EAD, has been the same mediocre QB with the same tendencies and similar stats. I'd post them, but, really, f*ck it.

[RutgersJetFan]

I'd post them, but, really, f*ck it.

Amen. Schottenfreude be damned.

[CTM]

See?

No, I don't.. But I also don't care enough about schotty to be cornered into defending him..at a minimum, I know we haven't had the QB to run a top offense, whether schotty causes us to be ranked 19th instead of 14th I don't know and don't really care, cause if Sanchez develops it won't matter to much what bonehead is wearing the OC of NYJ label

[RutgersJetFan]

No, I don't..

Correct.

[Barcs]

Personally, I feel this year is Schotty's last chance. Yeah I was one of those guys screaming to fire him last year, but I feel he's a very good on the field coach. He's just not the best play caller, however. He's done well developing Sanchez, but I think he succumbs to the pressure in certain situations. He seems to often "overdo" it when a simple solution is the best way to go. I don't know for sure if it was him stinkin it up, or more WR schemes, or Sanchez himself, but this year I expect big improvment.

[serphnx]

Pittsburgh got a lucky, if undeserved, W out of that game and few outside of western Pennsylvania would argue that. To deny that the Jets had multiple times where they just got flat-out lucky on offense, which resulted in a win, is not being honest. We got stupid-luck more than once.

I say plenty that Schottenheimer doesn't draw up plays that call for Sanchez to throw the ball right to a defender (lucky for us the defender usually dropped it).

But every year there is a shiny, new set of excuses for this guy. Favre has one of his best seasons in GB, then comes here and lays an egg (still, mind you, this is easily the best Jets offense under BS), then goes to Minnesota and is great again. The same year we cut Pennington loose and has his best season since well before BS arrived in NY. Sanchez was, at times, hopeless until Rex steps in over BS's head and comes up with a stupidly-simple red/yellow/green solution. Pennington was at least a decent starter. He became barely mediocre under BS. Favre was one of the league's top QBs the year before and the year after being attached to BS.

We have to bring in advisers and former OC's and former HC's and keep roster spots for QB's who should be retired by now and solid RBs and throw all the money in the world at offensive linemen. All to help BS do the job he was hired to do so he could still only eke out a mediocre offense. Why? Because he's the son of a coach and somewhere, sometime, someone got the idea that Drew Brees and Philip Rivers wouldn't have been as good without BS's coaching. And still his crowning achievement with the Jets is coaching Brett Favre to one of his worst seasons.

Meanwhile, entering his 6th NFL season as our OC, he's never put together an offense as consistently good as the friggin' 2010 Raiders. Tell me about how awesome their QB's and receivers are. They had a mid-round rookie start most of the season at left tackle, taking over for that stiff Henderson. If that was under BS, it would just be another excuse as to why the offense is again lackluster. With a rookie Flacco the Ravens had the #11 offense. In his 2nd year the #9 offense. Derek Anderson is 1/10 the talent and smarts that Sanchez supposedly is. Yet in year two of his illustrious career - one where he lost the QB competition to Charlie friggin' Frye - they were a top-10 offense with that all-time offensive guru Rob Chudzinski as OC.

Excuses, excuses, excuses. Every year. It will be my great pleasure if this year isn't more of the same from Schottenheimer. But no doubt if we're a mediocre offense again, some will still provide endless excuses. Sanchez and Plaxico and Mason and Keller and Greene and LT and Powell and Conner and an OL of Ferguson-Slauson-Mangold-Moore-Hunter/Ducasse really ought to be enough for someone. Or should we have bypassed drafting Sanchez and picked up the great Jon Kitna instead?

They like to pretend either Favre sucked because he refused to learn the playbook or he was great because of Schitty's coaching before he got injured.

I guess they are just being contrarion. The fact that they are multiplying gives me pause. Before it was really only SeniorGato. Now it is CTM too. What will we do if there are more of these guys? Maybe 5 people in the world will believe it's not Schitty's fault by midseason, where will it stop?

BB was a defensive coach himself. Then he decided he needs to coach offense too, since he lost his actual good offensive coaches and couldn't find capable replacements after awhile. Rex needs to do that too. No more excuses, this is your team, step up and install an offense.

What worries me is that after Braylon got here he said that there really is no adjustment because the Browns ran the same offense. Holmes said just a week or two ago that missing training camp doesn't matter much and Plax will pick up the offense because it's really simple. Schitty likes to pretend it is complex but I don't think it can be because of those types of comments. I've heard smart offensive minds like Gruden and Jaws pretty much openly mock and laugh at the constant shifting.

Maybe by themselves the signs above are meaningless, but taken cumulatively it's very worrying and gives me no confidence in Schitty's abilities. The worst part is I know how frustrated I'll probably get, yet I can't stop it even knowing it.

[Barcs]

Favre did suck. He threw picks when it mattered most, just like he's done most of his career. The injury certainly didn't help, but he was sh*tty and is overrated as a QB. Most interceptions of all time, anyone?

[CTM]

Correct.

lol

[CTM]

They like to pretend either Favre sucked because he refused to learn the playbook or he was great because of Schitty's coaching before he got injured.

But favre did refuse to learn the playbook, and he was pretty damn good before the injury.. NOT because of Schotty's coaching, just cause he's a good QB..

[Bleedin Green]

But favre did refuse to learn the playbook, and he was pretty damn good before the injury.. NOT because of Schotty's coaching, just cause he's a good QB..

And yet there were still a number of those "WTF is this OC thinking" games. Do you not remember that Oakland abortion?

Nobody is arguing that the guy has had a line up of nothing but hall of famers on his offense, but the fact is that the guy has consistently gotten less out of his players than other teams have out of those same guys. You know I hate Pennington as much as anyone, but when the only good thing the guy does is not throw a lot of picks, and he starts throwing them left and right the second Schotty shows up and then completely stops again the second he leaves, that says something. Favre has had plenty of rough seasons in his career, but two of his best were the season before and after he played for Schotty, with his garbage season with the Jets plopped in between. Surely he played a lot better when healthy, but even then there were absolutely unacceptable performances in games like the aforementioned worst offensive gameplan in NFL history against the Raiders. And just to prove Schotty learns absolutely nothing, he trotted out nearly the same dogsh*t gameplan just last year in the game that the Pats beat the living hell out of the Jets.

The guy is far from the only problem with the Jets offense over the past few years, but in that regard he's no different than our favorite lpayer Chad Pennington. Neither guy is the sole reason for the Jets various struggles in their time here, but that doesn't excuse either of them from their very large share of the blame, and moving on from them is the first step of many in correcting these problems. There's no doubt it was a great step in the right direction when they finally dumped Penny, and it will be no different when they finally do the same with Schotty.

[CTM]

And yet there were still a number of those "WTF is this OC thinking" games. Do you not remember that Oakland abortion?

I've yet to watch a team that didn't have me scratching my head at times with decision making. Remember the detroit/leon johnson debacle? I don't deny that Schotty makes his fair share of bone headed mistakes, I just don't know any that don't. If you go to any teams message board there is a faction of fans that complain about the coaching staff. Certainly schotty isn't a top coordinator, I'm more saying he's probably avg..

[SenorGato]

ONE MIIIIIIIIILLLION!!!

[SenorGato]

I've yet to watch a team that didn't have me scratching my head at times with decision making. Remember the detroit/leon johnson debacle? I don't deny that Schotty makes his fair share of bone headed mistakes, I just don't know any that don't. If you go to any teams message board there is a faction of fans that complain about the coaching staff. Certainly schotty isn't a top coordinator, I'm more saying he's probably avg..

The results are maybe average right now, but he's one of the more highly thought of young coordinators (is the guy even 40 yet?) out there and this is the year we'll finally see a QB who can execute it. You know what's going to happen once Sanchez starts executing? He'll get every drop of credit....Schottenheimer will get a new job....which can be just as fun as credit from the masses.

[Bleedin Green]

I've yet to watch a team that didn't have me scratching my head at times with decision making. Remember the detroit/leon johnson debacle? I don't deny that Schotty makes his fair share of bone headed mistakes, I just don't know any that don't. If you go to any teams message board there is a faction of fans that complain about the coaching staff. Certainly schotty isn't a top coordinator, I'm more saying he's probably avg..

I suppose there is certainly some truth to that, but it comes back to the whole Pennington comparison for me. The guy was far from the worst QB in the league nor the worst starter, but there's just certain things that can't be overcome, and Schotty is the OC equivalent of that. The Jets were never going to get beyond a certain point with Chad as their QB and I think the same applies now to Schotty. The only way is if the rest of the team overcomes their respective weakness, which granted is a lot easier to do for an OC than a QB, but you still shouldn't need to. While it's certainly not all bad, there's enough really baffling idiocy that it's too much to overlook. The last time the Jets played a game of football, he made one of the worst play calling decisions I've ever seen, it gave the opposing team 7 points, and it very possibly was what ended up costing the Jets their first trip to the Super Bowl in over 40 years. Excusing him for that because of other issues on the team is no different than those who excused Chad for that 2004 Steelers loss.

Just like Chad was many years ago, there's certainly some teams out there with worse situations who would be glad to have him on their team, but that doesn't necessarily make him all that great. For a team with championship aspirations, he's shown himself to be more of a hindrance than a help.

[CTM]

Nobody is arguing that the guy has had a line up of nothing but hall of famers on his offense, but the fact is that the guy has consistently gotten less out of his players than other teams have out of those same guys. You know I hate Pennington as much as anyone, but when the only good thing the guy does is not throw a lot of picks, and he starts throwing them left and right the second Schotty shows up and then completely stops again the second he leaves, that says something.

Pennington INT %

Pre Schott

2003 - 4.04%

2004 - 2.43

2005 - 3.61

Schott

2006 - 3.29

2007 - 3.46

Post Schott

2008 - 1.46 (add in his 4 int wc game 2.14)

2009 - 2.70

So.. basically 2x pre schott his int % was higher, and he had 1 highly succesful season in 2008, that as you yourself know, saw him face the weakest schedule in football (by far) and then finally had is lunch eaten when facing a good team in the playoffs..

The other thing to remember is we had minimal running game in 06/07, compared to one of the best runnign games in football in 2008.. I really don't understand how this line proves Schotty is terrible at all.. Between SOS, dropped INT's, INT's that are caused by a reciever bobble, you're putting an awful lot of stock in a minimal amount of plays, with data which isn't even conclusive. It's junk science

[SenorGato]

I suppose there is certainly some truth to that, but it comes back to the whole Pennington comparison for me. The guy was far from the worst QB in the league nor the worst starter, but there's just certain things that can't be overcome, and Schotty is the OC equivalent of that. The Jets were never going to get beyond a certain point with Chad as their QB and I think the same applies now to Schotty. The only way is if the rest of the team overcomes their respective weakness, which granted is a lot easier to do for an OC than a QB, but you still shouldn't need to. While it's certainly not all bad, there's enough really baffling idiocy that it's too much to overlook. The last time the Jets played a game of football, he made one of the worst play calling decisions I've ever seen, it gave the opposing team 7 points, and it very possibly was what ended up costing the Jets their first trip to the Super Bowl in over 40 years. Excusing him for that because of other issues on the team is no different than those who excused Chad for that 2004 Steelers loss.

Just like Chad was many years ago, there's certainly some teams out there with worse situations who would be glad to have him on their team, but that doesn't necessarily make him all that great. For a team with championship aspirations, he's shown himself to be more of a hindrance than a help.

Pennington never took his unit/team to two straight AFC Championship games. Hell, he could barely keep his shoulder in the socket for long periods of time. Also what CTM said.

[Smashmouth]

Obviously that's his burden.. That's not debateable.... Pointing that out doesn't make me an apologist however. I do believe if you had Tom Moore/Bill Callahan or whomever the flavor of the month is for the message board experts was coordinating this offense the last 2 years the results would be eerily similiar, because the QB play has been inconsistant.. that's my sole point.

If Sanchez gets better, the offense will improve. Whether it improves enough is for Rex to decide, I'm confident enough in the big man to trust his judgement..

I think from year 1 too year 2 it is certainly Debateable. Last year Sanchez threw 13 Ints and if Im not mistaken 6 of them came in 2 games. Sanchez turned his INT to TD ratio completely around last year from 13/20 ro 17/13 you cant ask much more from a young QB . Not only did he do that but in both seasons he played very well in the playoffs. What this proves to me is Sanchez is going 100 % in the right Direction and I expect to see even better production this year if our geriatric WR's can stay healthy. I think the only way we see Sanchez starts to become the elite QB his physical talents and study habits tell us he could be is when we get a real OC in here to take him to that level.

Nothing says we still cant be an effective Running team and still throw the football early in games to get Sanchez rolling. Like I stated in my wall of text, most good running teams get their yards in the 4th quarter when they are putting games away. Its the main reason some really bad teams dont have good rushing stats because they are almost never in the lead so they have to throw the football. Most of your good football teams have good rushing attacks because its a circumstance of winning and dominating teams late in games by running down the clock on worn out defenses. This is why I think we should get Sanchez involved early in games and then allow him to hand the ball off down the stretch to win the games, basicly turn what were doing now completely around. IMHO if we do this I think you will see a drastic change in both Sanchez' Stats and his accuracy.

[Smashmouth]

Pennington INT %

Pre Schott

2003 - 4.04%

2004 - 2.43

2005 - 3.61

Schott

2006 - 3.29

2007 - 3.46

Post Schott

2008 - 1.46 (add in his 4 int wc game 2.14)

2009 - 2.70

So.. basically 2x pre schott his int % was higher, and he had 1 highly succesful season in 2008, that as you yourself know, saw him face the weakest schedule in football (by far) and then finally had is lunch eaten when facing a good team in the playoffs..

The other thing to remember is we had minimal running game in 06/07, compared to one of the best runnign games in football in 2008.. I really don't understand how this line proves Schotty is terrible at all.. Between SOS, dropped INT's, INT's that are caused by a reciever bobble, you're putting an awful lot of stock in a minimal amount of plays, with data which isn't even conclusive. It's junk science

what are those percentages based on ?? And why is pennington even in this conversation. The best stats is Brett favre Sandwiching 1 crappy season in between 2 great seasons and the crappy one being with Shotty.

[CTM]

what are those percentages based on ?? And why is pennington even in this conversation. The best stats is Brett favre Sandwiching 1 crappy season in between 2 great seasons and the crappy one being with Shotty.

Never mind the seasons before and after those 3 years in which favre sucked worse (2000, 2001, 2005, 2006, 2010).. or that he was changing offensive systems and missed most of camp.. and was injured... Ignore it all, and yes, then it's conclusive proof.. Schotty turned favre into an INT machine

[Smashmouth]

Never mind the seasons before and after those 3 years in which favre sucked worse (2000, 2001, 2005, 2006, 2010).. or that he was changing offensive systems and missed most of camp.. and was injured... Ignore it all, and yes, then it's conclusive proof.. Schotty turned favre into an INT machine

chan trust me Im no Favre fan I think the guys has inceredible stats but could be one of the biggest choke machines in playoff histroy with all the bone headed Dumb INTs he threw. Hes overrated IMO and a media darling due to some of the incredible plays he made and his longevity.

My reason for disliking Shotty goes far beyond Farve and even Pennington. What I cant stand is the guys predictability and god awefull play calling in close games. Also his play calling inside the 20 was so bad it was almost laughable at times. This scares the hell out of me in the playoffs because at some point were going to be in a close game and I dont trust this idiot to ever get a mismatch in our favor as a matter of fact I never see the guy create constant mismatches like some coaches do .

[Jet27]

Seriously?

I hear all these excuses for an over rated and over hyped Coordinator. Who for all his strengths, which are as common within the league as back ups, this guys finds ways to lose in the biggest moments we have. And who can forget his all time best play-call, the 4th down quick out to an unprotected WR covered by three Defensive players when we need over 15 yards for a first.

Look I just want to ask how long are we going to handcuff our selves? For all our teams growing pains you honestly think that any other O.C. would have ****ed up as much or would have had a job?

I just want to go out on a limb and tell you how I feel. I hate Shotty and his stupid game plans. Can we please let this guy go in the preseason. Sign anyone!!!! ANYONE!!! let Rex call the plays again I don't care...

PLEASE let Shotty not suck this year

I agree up to a point. If Sanchez does not fumble against Pitt in the AFCCG, who knows what would have happened. All I know is we scored 19 unanswered points in that game, and if we had 1 time out remaining and 1 minute more, we most probably would not be having this discussion. Shotty does make you scratch your head and at times mad as hell. But we do have the tools in place to be a dominant team for a while. The coaches and the players must take the next step and that is to concentrate on winning the division, and having a first round bye. PERIOD.

[Jetsfan80]

How do you guys still remember and/or feel the need to discuss that Pittsburgh game? Either I got too drunk out of depression or I deleted it from my memory, because I remember very little from it and have no desire to rehash the pain.

[Klecko73isGod]

Yep

Clearly Schotty's fault that the D gave up 24 in the first half to the Steelers

Well, to be fair, at least the last 7 was on the offense.

[Klecko73isGod]

I agree up to a point. If Sanchez does not fumble against Pitt in the AFCCG, who knows what would have happened. All I know is we scored 19 unanswered points in that game, and if we had 1 time out remaining and 1 minute more, we most probably would not be having this discussion. Shotty does make you scratch your head and at times mad as hell. But we do have the tools in place to be a dominant team for a while. The coaches and the players must take the next step and that is to concentrate on winning the division, and having a first round bye. PERIOD.

Sanchez didn't call a pass on 3rd an 17. Even Schotty stepped up and took the bullet for that one, admitting he should have called a run there.