Cavanaugh on Sanchez

[slats]

Can't argue with you on your point regarding Smith and Irvin. They were great players. But, Mark had the benefit of having one of the best OLs in football his first 2 years.

And his first two years, the Jets made it to the AFC Championship.

[CTM]

And his first two years, the Jets made it to the AFC Championship.

did they give us a trophy for that?

[slats]

did they give us a trophy for that?

No. But it is living, breathing proof that you can win in this league with a game manager type QB. Sanchez wasn't even that.

[Il Mostro]

did they give us a trophy for that?

Second Loser's Trophy.

[jbone]

And his first two years, the Jets made it to the AFC Championship.

Sure, did.

I was just referencing one of your earlier posts where you said Sanchez didn't have the benefit of the Cowboys OL. Just clarifying that he had a very, very good OL his first 2 years. You sort of implied he didn't. Or maybe that was just a false impression I got when I read your post.

[slats]

Sure, did.

I was just referencing one of your earlier posts where you said Sanchez didn't have the benefit of the Cowboys OL. Just clarifying that he had a very, very good OL his first 2 years. You sort of implied he didn't. Or maybe that was just a false impression I got when I read your post.

The Jets OL has been pretty good since they drafted Brick and Mangold, but it's never been on the level of that Cowboys line.

[jbone]

The Jets OL has been pretty good since they drafted Brick and Mangold, but it's never been on the level of that Cowboys line.

That is pretty hard to prove. 3/5 of our line went to the Pro Bowl last year. And it was a BAD year for us. At least relative to the last few seasons.

P.S. Bad in terms of aggregate performance for the unit.

[CTM]

No. But it is living, breathing proof that you can win in this league with a game manager type QB. Sanchez wasn't even that.

No, it's not.. This is a team that 2x got there via the wildcard round, without even hosting a single game. The first time they were only in because the Colts had nothing to play for. Thyy were 2x the exception, not the rule

[slats]

That is pretty hard to prove.

True, and it's a peripheral argument that I'm not all that interested in getting into, anyway.

The point I was making is that game managers can win Super Bowls. Troy Aikman was a game manager drafted #1 overall, and he won a few. Phil Simms was a game managing Super Bowl champ who was drafted #7 overall.

The easiest way, obviously, is having your very own truly elite QB, but that's a lot easier said than done. How many are there in the NFL today? Five? Six? The rest of the league needs to run and play defense. The Jets and Sanchez fall into that rest of the league category.

[slats]

No, it's not.. This is a team that 2x got there via the wildcard round, without even hosting a single game. The first time they were only in because the Colts had nothing to play for. Thyy were 2x the exception, not the rule

Not unlike the Giants' path last year.

Tell us, what are the Jets supposed to do at the position? I read a lot of complaints, I never read a solution. And I'll tell you upfront, I didn't see Peyton Manning and his broken neck a viable solution for $99M.

[jbone]

I agree game managers can win in this league, assuming they have a team where they are among the best in the league in other important areas. I.E. Dilfer and the Ravens ridic defense.

I disagree in labeling Troy Aikman a game manager. Game managers don't make the Hall of Fame. Except, maybe Terry Bradshaw, only because he had that defense every year.

[slats]

I disagree in labeling Troy Aikman a game manager. Game managers don't make the Hall of Fame. Except, maybe Terry Bradshaw, only because he had that defense every year.

Sure they do. Bob Fvcking Griese is in the HoF. You win Super Bowls, and you get to go.

Troy Aikman was a game manager. By the time that OL and Emmitt started breaking down, Aikman's numbers started looking very Sanchez-like. That team carried hm, and he did enough to not screw it up.

[jbone]

Lol. Game managers don't finish inside the top 6 for QBR and completion % 6 straight seasons.

Can we get a poll of who thinks Aikman is a game manager or not? I am interested in what others would think.

Ok...so 2...Bradshaw and Griese....I am soooooooo wrong

[ZachEY]

Gee, how many times have I posted on this site - If you need someone to blame for the POOR decisions - IT HAS TO BE BRIAN SHOTTENHEIMER...

God do I feel exonerated!

Lets all hope he can repair the problems that have prevailed over this Offense since Brett Favre!

Seriously!

Brian Schottenhiemer never told him not to throw the ball to the same Defensive End twice in one game... Huge oversight!

[ZachEY]

No. But it is living, breathing proof that you can win in this league with a game manager type QB. Sanchez wasn't even that.

Not really. Because, you need to win 3 straight games, if not 4. Sooner or later, something else goes wrong. Without a QB to overcome that. You lose. We see it every single year. Every single year.

[slats]

Lol. Game managers don't finish inside the top 6 for QBR and completion % 6 straight seasons.

Can we get a poll of who thinks Aikman is a game manager or not? I am interested in what others would think.

QBR is the ultimate game manager stat. Chad Pennington's career QBR is 90.1 compared to Aikman's 81.6.

Aikman threw more than 20 TDs only once in his career. His career TD % number is 3.5 - which is actually lower than Mark Sanchez! And that has nothing to do with the rules, as Steve Young had a couple years throwing over 30 TDs (and a few more over 20) during the same period.

Aikman was a game manager. Sorry if I've hit a nerve here, but that's all he was.

[slats]

Not really. Because, you need to win 3 straight games, if not 4. Sooner or later, something else goes wrong. Without a QB to overcome that. You lose. We see it every single year. Every single year.

So what do you have to offer as a viable solution to what you see as an inevitable problem? Everyone would like one of the five or six genuinely elite QBs in the league today, but they're all taken. So what do you do without one? Give up before the season? If that's the case, the Jets really should've done Hard Knocks.

[jbone]

QBR is the ultimate game manager stat. Chad Pennington's career QBR is 90.1 compared to Aikman's 81.6.

Aikman was among the best in the league in QBR for 6 straight seasons. He was en elite QB, using QBR from 91-95, finishing in the top 3 in 92, 93 and 95. Just missing the top 3 in 94. The guy is a regular Trent Dilfer. Hahaha

Chad Pennington finished inside the top 10 for QBR TWICE in his entire career. He lead the league in 02, then finished 11th, 11th, 11th, 12th and 15th respectively until 08 when he finished 2nd. Aikman was consistently better using your own metric at their prime career playing time, relative to his piers.

Thanks for helping me make my point.

[jbone]

Aikman was a game manager. Sorry if I've hit a nerve here, but that's all he was.

He also won 3 super bowl titles, received Hall of fame honors and honored as a Super Bowl MVP (did Dilfer do that to?).You haven't hit a nerve, just putting forth a rather reasonable rebuttal to your claim Aikman was nothing more than a game manager.

[bitonti]

i like how everyone is arguing over Sanchez' upside. Is he a manager or is he a star? Who friggin cares. If he turns the ball over 26 times a year again he's gonna hit the waiver wire.

[slats]

Aikman was among the best in the league in QBR for 6 straight seasons. He was en elite QB, using QBR from 91-95, finishing in the top 3 in 92, 93 and 95. Just missing the top 3 in 94. The guy is a regular Trent Dilfer. Hahaha

Chad Pennington finished inside the top 10 for QBR TWICE in his entire career. He lead the league in 02, then finished 11th, 11th, 11th, 12th and 15th respectively until 08 when he finished 2nd. Aikman was consistently better using your own metric at their prime career playing time, relative to his piers.

Thanks for helping me make my point.

But he was so crappy the rest of his career that his career QBR is 8 points lower than Chad? Haha! Elite, my a$$.

Elite QB's produce on the field. They don't strive to lead the league in QBR, they lead he league in yards and TDs. By that measure, Sanchez has it all over Aikman, because Elite Troy never once in his career threw for as many yards or as many TDs as Sanchez threw last year.

So actually, you're making my point. Sanchez could easily be an Aikman level game manager.

[jbone]

Dude, arrogance is a tough thing.

How can a reasonable person read any of the above posts and come to the conclusion Sanchez can be an Aikman level type manager? Simply because you keep saying so? You really haven't provided any useful data or persuasive arguments to support your case. All you have said is Pennington QBR>Aikmans QBR and hope people are persuaded by that shallow statement.

Your definition of "game manager" seems to have been compromised by some sort of Cowboy/Aikman hatred.

[jbone]

.Elite QB's produce on the field. They don't strive to lead the league in QBR, they lead he league in yards and TDs. By that measure, Sanchez has it all over Aikman, because Elite Troy never once in his career threw for as many yards or as many TDs as Sanchez threw last year.

Actually, you are making youself look desparate and stubborn more than anything. You are now saying sanchez is better than Aikman, here?

[slats]

Actually, you are making youself look desparate and stubborn more than anything. You are now saying sanchez is better than Aikman, here?

No, I'm saying Aikman was a game managing JAG on one of the greatest teams ever put together. A team Barry Switzer could coach to a title. Comparing Sanchez' stats to Aikman's so favorably helps to make that point. Aikman's best year was not as productive as Mark Sanchez'. That's a fact.

Meanwhile, QBR is an efficiency rating. It measures a QB's game managing ability and puts it in a number form. Aikman was rarely even top ten in yards or TDs. Young, Elway, Moon, Kelly, Marino... They were the elite QB's of the time, smoking Aikman in actual production year after year.

The fact that Aikman's career QBR, the stat your pointing to as making him elite, pales in comparison to Chad Pennington's really should've been enough, but you're the one being desperate and stubborn here.

Aikman was no more elite than fellow HoF'er Bob Griese.

[jbone]

Sanchez has thrown the ball 400 more times than Aikman did at the same point in his career. Aikman attempted 500 passes or more only once, Sanchez has done it twice already (the past 2 seasons).

Sanchez doesn't have better seasons in regards to yds and TDs because he is better than Aikman. He simply had a CRAP TON more throws to use at his disposal. Per pass, Aikman was far more productive and efficient. The main reason for the difference being the heavy shift to a more pass oriented NFL, something that can be borne out by the available data.

[slats]

How can a reasonable person read any of the above posts and come to the conclusion Sanchez can be an Aikman level type manager? Simply because you keep saying so? You really haven't provided any useful data or persuasive arguments to support your case. All you have said is Pennington QBR>Aikmans QBR and hope people are persuaded by that shallow statement.

I've provided plenty of numbers that you've chosen to ignore.

In Sanchez' third season, he threw for more yards and TDs than Aikman ever did in any season. Sanchez' career TD % is higher than Aikman's. He's done this with far less at his disposal than Aikman had during his prime. Far less.

Sanchez has played very well in stretches, and very poorly on other stretches. He needs to up his consistency. Improve his comp %, and cut down on the poor decisions. That's the difference between being erratic and being a capable game manager - like Troy Aikman! Statistically, as demonstrated thru the use of numbers, he's already very close.

[T0mShane]

Sanchez could easily be an Aikman level game manager.

Come on now. This is like one of those threads where people pull up Namath's stats and conclude that he sucks in comparison to today. Yes, Aikman's early stats were similar to Sanchez's, but by his third season, those (relatively putrid) Aikman stats (65%, 11 TDs, 10 INT's, 2754 yds, 7.6 YPA) gave him the 6th best passer rating in the league. In 2011, that wouldn't have put him in the Top 12. Steve Young, who led the league in 91, would have ranked sixth this past year. Only Jim Kelly and Steve Bono (same system as Young) would have come close to making this year's Top Ten list with Young. It was a different world for the passing game then.

Even forgetting that, Aikman was the acknowledged, no-BS leader of that team--something that Mark has shown less than zero capacity for. It's one thing to be a game manager with limited skills, it's another thing to be a game manager with limited skills whom nobody other than his BFF TE even pretends to respect. Aikman would have disemboweled Santonio Holmes on the Dallas star the second he opened his mouth. The very idea of Sanchez trying to control Michael Irvin and Alvin Harper and Erik Williams and Larry Allen is almost laughable.

[T0mShane]

DP

[ZachEY]

So what do you have to offer as a viable solution to what you see as an inevitable problem? Everyone would like one of the five or six genuinely elite QBs in the league today, but they're all taken. So what do you do without one? Give up before the season? If that's the case, the Jets really should've done Hard Knocks.

There's no solution this year, unfortunately.

I mean, personally, I wouldn't have given him that kind of guaranteed money, but that's just me.

You hope he develops this year, and you move on quickly and decisively if he does not.

[CTM]

Yeah, not getting the AIkmen thing. He's clearly a better player thus far and it's not even close

[jbone]

I've provided plenty of numbers that you've chosen to ignore.

In Sanchez' third season, he threw for more yards and TDs than Aikman ever did in any season. Sanchez' career TD % is higher than Aikman's. He's done this with far less at his disposal than Aikman had during his prime. Far less.

Sanchez averages 471 pass attempts per season so far. Aikman average 392 for his career. Stubborn me, that must have nothing to do with it. Getting 80 more passes per year to rack up more yardage and TDs is completely insignificant.

If Aikman never had an Emmit Smith he might have had to force the action more with the a vertical passing game, but having the all time leading rusher probably takes away some stats as a passer.

[slats]

Sanchez has thrown the ball 400 more times than Aikman did at the same point in his career. Aikman attempted 500 passes or more only once, Sanchez has done it twice already (the past 2 seasons).

Sanchez doesn't have better seasons in regards to yds and TDs because he is better than Aikman. He simply had a CRAP TON more throws to use at his disposal. Per pass, Aikman was far more productive and efficient. The main reason for the difference being the heavy shift to a more pass oriented NFL, something that can be borne out by the available data.

The elite Troy Aikman never threw for more yards or TDs than Sanchez did last year.

In his time, using the available data, you can look it up and see that Aikman often had trouble breaking into the top 20 in passing yards and TDs. Bottom third stuff. Sanchez was 15th and 9th, respectively, in what everyone considers a poor year.

In Aikman's elite QBR years, his NFL raking in those categories were:

91 - 16th in yards, 17th in TDs (his third season, worse than Sanchez' rankings in his third season)

92 - 4th, 4th (by far his best season, still falls behind Sanchez' totals from last season)

93 - 10th, 10th

94 - 16th, 20th

95 - 13th, 20th

Guy was a middle of the pack JAG compared to the QBs of his era, he just got to play for an awesome team.

There's no reason Sanchez can't do that or better.

[jbone]

None of those numbers refute the fact Aikman was far more effecitve and efficient per pass attempt/completion when compared to Sanchez. Sorry, but its just numbers.

When you think of the greatest QBs of the nineties, you think of Young, Aikman and Favre. Most QBs would say the only stat that really matters is WINS. Well, there wasn't one QB in the 90s who did that better than Aikman in that regard. He was elite. In fact, he was the winningest QB of any decade at the time of his retirement.

When you will think of the best QBs of this ERA, Sanchez won't even be in the conversation. To argue otherwise is ludicrous.

[slats]

None of those numbers refute the fact Aikman was far more effecitve and efficient per pass attempt/completion when compared to Sanchez. Sorry, but its just numbers.

When you think of the greatest QBs of the nineties, you think of Young, Aikman and Favre. Most QBs would say the only stat that really matters is WINS. Well, there wasn't one QB in the 90s who did that better than Aikman in that regard. He was elite. In fact, he was the winningest QB of any decade at the time of his retirement.

When you will think of the best QBs of this ERA, Sanchez won't even be in the conversation. To argue otherwise is ludicrous.

Aikman is ONLY in the conversation because of the championships. Jimmy Johnson put together an amazing team. Take away those Super Bowls, and the guy is completely forgotten. Young, Marino, Kelly, Moon, Favre.... All blew away Aikman's production. Sanchez wins a couple titles on the strength of Rex's dee with marginally better comp and int % than he has today, and he gets to be in the HoF, too.

Production-wise, he was a game managing JAG. Not even up to Chad Pennington's level of QB ratinghood.

[jbone]

So you basically think any half way above average QB (cause that is basically what you think Aikman was) would have the exact same production as Aikman if you plug them into Jimmy Johnson's Cowboys? Doesn't that sound a bit outlandish when you actually look at the statistics Aikman had during those Super Bowl runs? He was the best player on the field during one of those Super Bowls.