Joe Paterno statue being torn down as we speak.

[gangreenman]

You said:

And I'm saying that there certainly was a competitive advantage to keeping it under wraps. If Joe Pa decided to put a stop to it, there would have been repercussions to the program which in turn, would hinder the success of the program. Therefore, the cover up, was a competitive advantage.

Possibly, but the slippery slops is a slippery slope. You can also make the argument that if he was outed right away by Paterno, who said he was concerned about a member of his coaching staff, relieved him of his duties, and encouraged the children he associated with to get help (maybe even helped pay for it), Paterno's (and the programs) image may have increased, and maybe more families would want to send their kids to a coach who was obviously caring, humane, etc etc.

The point I was trying to make is that the NCAA has rules and regulations - some of them are ridiculous, but thats beside the point - that exist to ensure that everyone is playing on an even playing field. None of those rules or regulations have been violated by Penn State. Therefore, the NCAA is overstepping its boundaries here by sanctioning them for violations that weren't committed.

[JustInFudge]

In other words, the cover up occurred for the purposes of competitive advantage. The scandal that would have erupted in 1998 or 2002 may have caused PSU to lose top recruits who wouldve avoided the school and gone elsewhere. So they covered it up to avoid bad press, scrutiny, and avoid alienating recruits and doners.

Yes. Exactly.

Possibly, but the slippery slops is a slippery slope. You can also make the argument that if he was outed right away by Paterno, who said he was concerned about a member of his coaching staff, relieved him of his duties, and encouraged the children he associated with to get help (maybe even helped pay for it), Paterno's (and the programs) image may have increased, and maybe more families would want to send their kids to a coach who was obviously caring, humane, etc etc.

The point I was trying to make is that the NCAA has rules and regulations - some of them are ridiculous, but thats beside the point - that exist to ensure that everyone is playing on an even playing field. None of those rules or regulations have been violated by Penn State. Therefore, the NCAA is overstepping its boundaries here by sanctioning them for violations that weren't committed.

You could say that, but thats not what happened. There was a cover up because they didnt want what SMC accurately described above.

Therefore, I think the NCAA is well within their boundaries.

[gangreenman]

Yes. Exactly.

You could say that, but thats not what happened. There was a cover up because they didnt want what SMC accurately described above.

Therefore, I think the NCAA is well within their boundaries.

But its hard/impossible to prove there really was any competitive advantage gained by covering it up. And if you can't prove a competitive advantage was gained, or a rule was broken, you can't sanction them.

[SMC]

But its hard/impossible to prove there really was any competitive advantage gained by covering it up. And if you can't prove a competitive advantage was gained, or a rule was broken, you can't sanction them.

Then why the coverup?

What tangible purpose did JoePa, PSU Pres & AD hope to achieve by covering it up?

Bad press? That's what they really cared about? Just bad stories? There would be no criminal charges against them at the time so that wasn't a concern.

Again, why the coverup? How would PSU benefit from it?

[gangreenman]

Then why the coverup?

What tangible purpose did JoePa, PSU Pres & AD hope to achieve by covering it up?

Bad press? That's what they really cared about? Just bad stories? There would be no criminal charges against them at the time so that wasn't a concern.

Again, why the coverup? How would PSU benefit from it?

Sandusky had been with them for about 20 years already...Had helped them win big games...Was their good friend...They wanted to show loyalty... There are a million stupid reasons. Unless the NCAA can prove somehow that Penn State only covered it up to get/keep recruits, then MAYBE there's a case to be made. Still iffy though, since no one in the program was doing anything that violated NCAA rules to actually get those recruits.

I just think this is a legal issue, more then an NCAA/competition issue, and should be handled by legal authorities, and not an Athletic authority.

[SMC]

Sandusky had been with them for about 20 years already...Had helped them win big games...Was their good friend...They wanted to show loyalty... There are a million stupid reasons. Unless the NCAA can prove somehow that Penn State only covered it up to get/keep recruits, then MAYBE there's a case to be made. Still iffy though, since no one in the program was doing anything that violated NCAA rules to actually get those recruits.

I just think this is a legal issue, more then an NCAA/competition issue, and should be handled by legal authorities, and not an Athletic authority.

But Sandusky had not been friends with the PSU pres & AD for 20+ years. Looking at the Freeh report and the quoted emails, they weren't doing this out of some misguided loyalty to a friends. If everyone hated Sandusky you think they wouldve done something different?

PSU is not a company where it's stock price drops with bad news or their sales will be negatively impacted by such news. They get revenue through the football program, endowments, and tuition.

If the scandal in 1998 or 2002 wouldn't have hurt PSU financially, then why cover it up?

[HessStation]

Sandusky had been with them for about 20 years already...Had helped them win big games...Was their good friend...They wanted to show loyalty... There are a million stupid reasons. Unless the NCAA can prove somehow that Penn State only covered it up to get/keep recruits, then MAYBE there's a case to be made. Still iffy though, since no one in the program was doing anything that violated NCAA rules to actually get those recruits.

I just think this is a legal issue, more then an NCAA/competition issue, and should be handled by legal authorities, and not an Athletic authority.

I agree but I don't think the sanctions make a lick of differece. This program is/was done regardless.

[gangreenman]

But Sandusky had not been friends with the PSU pres & AD for 20+ years. Looking at the Freeh report and the quoted emails, they weren't doing this out of some misguided loyalty to a friends. If everyone hated Sandusky you think they wouldve done something different?

PSU is not a company where it's stock price drops with bad news or their sales will be negatively impacted by such news. They get revenue through the football program, endowments, and tuition.

If the scandal in 1998 or 2002 wouldn't have hurt PSU financially, then why cover it up?

Look, I don't know everyone's motive. But I think for a school pres. and A/D to cover up and protect a repeat pedophile simply because they want to make sure some 18 year old kids don't change their mind, or because it may hurt their bottom line a little, is just as ridiculous as doing it for a friend. Would it have hurt them financially? Maybe in the short term. But if they were the ones to report it, they'd be on top of the story, they did the right thing, they acted with integrity, thats what Paterno/ Penn State is all about. Blah Blah.

We know he was a good friend of Paterno, so maybe the Pres. and A/D were scared to piss off Paterno by outing his longtime friend... No matter what the motive the whole thing was a legal and moral disaster, but hardly, if at all, a competitive/cheating one.

[gangreenman]

I agree but I don't think the sanctions make a lick of differece. This program is/was done regardless.

Without question. The money the school, the football program, the Paterno/Sandusky families stand to lose in lawsuits right now is mouth-gapingly large. There is no way a football team survives at PSU for long regardless of what the NCAA does. Still doesn't mean its within their boundaries to enforce anything of their own.

[HessStation]

Without question. The money the school, the football program, the Paterno/Sandusky families stand to lose in lawsuits right now is mouth-gapingly large. There is no way a football team survives at PSU for long regardless of what the NCAA does. Still doesn't mean its within their boundaries to enforce anything of their own.

Agree 100%

[THE ILK]

Are they going to tear down the showers?

[gangreenman]

Agree 100%

Well, the NCAA didn't consult me, or listen to my advice. $60M fine, four year bowl ban, loss of 20 scholarships over a 4 year period, 5 year probationary period, all wins vacated since '98. That in conjunction with a Big Ten issued $13m fine and a 4 year ban on Big Ten Championship games. Boundaries overstepped, not that I'm going to cry for Penn State. Just irks me a little to see them be "victims" of unwarranted measures. Whatever.

[RutgersJetFan]

Are they going to tear down the showers?

Yeah, they're either renovating them or relocating them. I forget which one, but they reported it a few weeks ago.

[SMC]

Without question. The money the school, the football program, the Paterno/Sandusky families stand to lose in lawsuits right now is mouth-gapingly large. There is no way a football team survives at PSU for long regardless of what the NCAA does. Still doesn't mean its within their boundaries to enforce anything of their own.

The NCAA just needed a legal opening IMO, and that's what PSU provided the NCAA. And this is such a unique situation anyway so there is no real "slippery slope" problem.

So the next time some wacko in the media or even school affiliate screams, "This sets a bad precedent!"

The likely retort is: "You mean, there is going to be another instance of a head coach, school president, and athletic director allowing an accused pedophile free access to school facilities, letting him bring children on campus and on team road trips, and not alerting authorities for over a decade?"

The people would would view PSU as victims in this are either the Paterno Family, Matt Millen, and other Paterno/PSU appologists. So their opinion is suspect.

[gangreenman]

The NCAA just needed a legal opening IMO, and that's what PSU provided the NCAA. And this is such a unique situation anyway so there is no real "slippery slope" problem.

So the next time some wacko in the media or even school affiliate screams, "This sets a bad precedent!"

The likely retort is: "You mean, there is going to be another instance of a head coach, school president, and athletic director allowing an accused pedophile free access to school facilities, letting him bring children on campus and on team road trips, and not alerting authorities for over a decade?"

The people would would view PSU as victims in this are either the Paterno Family, Matt Millen, and other Paterno/PSU appologists. So their opinion is suspect.

So are you saying the NCAA should step in and sanction a program if a coach or administrator hires a prostitute, gets into a street fight, or does some other crime that has no direct on-field impact?

I understand pedophilia is a lot more egregious than any of the crimes listed above, but the point is if the NCAA has the right to step in here, where is the line drawn?

[JustInFudge]

But its hard/impossible to prove there really was any competitive advantage gained by covering it up. And if you can't prove a competitive advantage was gained, or a rule was broken, you can't sanction them.

Sandusky had been with them for about 20 years already...Had helped them win big games...Was their good friend...They wanted to show loyalty... There are a million stupid reasons. Unless the NCAA can prove somehow that Penn State only covered it up to get/keep recruits, then MAYBE there's a case to be made. Still iffy though, since no one in the program was doing anything that violated NCAA rules to actually get those recruits.

I just think this is a legal issue, more then an NCAA/competition issue, and should be handled by legal authorities, and not an Athletic authority.

Not much else to say that SMC isnt. But in bold, I think thats a very easy case to make which in turn, makes me agree that the NCAA is well with in their rights. The cover up, IMO, was a competitive advantage for their program.

[SMC]

So are you saying the NCAA should step in and sanction a program if a coach or administrator hires a prostitute, gets into a street fight, or does some other crime that has no direct on-field impact?

I understand pedophilia is a lot more egregious than any of the crimes listed above, but the point is if the NCAA has the right to step in here, where is the line drawn?

Sorry, but this is ridiculous extrapolation and blatantly false equivelence.

Seriously, "hire a prostitute"? "Get into a street fight"?

You were doing so well with your argument too ... until this post.

[Bugg]

Why is the $60 million going to anyone except the victims? That is a crime.

[gangreenman]

Sorry, but this is ridiculous extrapolation and blatantly false equivelence.

Seriously, "hire a prostitute"? "Get into a street fight"?

You were doing so well with your argument too ... until this post.

I agree. They're not equivalent at all, like I mentioned in my post. But the point still remains, where is the line drawn for the NCAA to issue sanctions for legal/moral reasons that don't really have an impact on the game?? That is, who decides what moral crime is bad enough to warrant NCAA sanctions despite the fact that now NCAA rules were violated? Does this now give precedent for the NCAA to get involved in punishing programs for hiring prostitutes, or something far less severe?

[RutgersJetFan]

I agree. They're not equivalent at all, like I mentioned in my post. But the point still remains, where is the line drawn for the NCAA to issue sanctions for legal/moral reasons that don't really have an impact on the game??

Child rape. That's it. That's the line.

[gangreenman]

Not much else to say that SMC isnt. But in bold, I think thats a very easy case to make which in turn, makes me agree that the NCAA is well with in their rights. The cover up, IMO, was a competitive advantage for their program.

Penn State, to our knowledge, never cheated to win a game. Never paid a recruit or his family to play at Penn State. Never committed any NCAA violation that gave them a competitive advantage. Protecting and covering up a pedophile to remain as your assistant coach, as illegal, disgusting, and immoral as that is, is not a violation of any NCAA rule.

Sure, you can make an argument that it is a complete lack of institutional control, but that lack of institutional control penalty the NCAA hands out is for programs that knowingly commit NCAA violations (in regards to player eligibility, recruiting tactics, etc etc). Nobody at Penn State was ever accused of doing these things. I know its a moot point now, but this is all a legal and moral issue, not an issue of competition or anything else requiring NCAA sanctions.

[gangreenman]

Child rape. That's it. That's the line.

Says who? Why can't the NCAA now get involved in punishing programs who have had coaches busted in prostitute rings? Or the next time a player gets drunk at a party and is accused, and convicted, of rape?

The NCAA is going into dangerous territory with this, in my opinion. They should let the legal system take care of the legal issues...They have enough on-field corruption and cheating to deal with without doing the job of the judicial system and moral police as well.

[RutgersJetFan]

Says who? Why can't the NCAA now get involved in punishing programs who have had coaches busted in prostitute rings? Or the next time a player gets drunk at a party and is accused, and convicted, of rape?

The NCAA is going into dangerous territory with this, in my opinion. They should let the legal system take care of the legal issues...They have enough on-field corruption and cheating to deal with without doing the job of the judicial system and moral police as well.

The corollaries you're attempting to make here are not only falsely equivalent but they're also infinite. You could hypothesize on different scenarios for days. What you're failing to realize is this is is a case-by-case thing. In this instance, there's no precedent for it and it's likely not setting any precedent for anything given the circumstances of the case. The legal system can't enforce punitive measures against the football program, which is the entity responsible for the cover up. It certainly deserves punishment. And anyone at that school or on that football team considering themselves a victim today is pathetic.

[gangreenman]

The corollaries you're attempting to make here are not only falsely equivalent but they're also infinite. You could hypothesize on different scenarios for days. What you're failing to realize is this is is a case-by-case thing. In this instance, there's no precedent for it and it's likely not setting any precedent for anything given the circumstances of the case. The legal system can't enforce punitive measures against the football program, which is the entity responsible for the cover up. It certainly deserves punishment. And anyone at that school or on that football team considering themselves a victim today is pathetic.

Im not entirely with you on precedent. While this case is definitely (well, hopefully) the most extreme case of moral ineptitude and irresponsibility the NCAA will ever be faced with, their punishment today does, in fact, open the door for the NCAA to sanction programs for moral and legal violations, even if no evidence of an NCAA violation is present. That is the NCAA overstepping its boundaries and taking on more then it was created to handle (especially considering it CANT EVEN handle what it was created to handle).

The legal system can't directly enforce punitive measures against the football program. But they certainly can (and have) enforce punitive measures on anyone within the program involved in criminal activity, or the cover up of that activity. The legal system is also where the lawsuits will be coming from, which in the end, will spell the death of Penn State football, regardless of what the NCAA does or doesn't do.

The bottom line is this: Sandusky got life in jail, Paterno would be deserving of the same were he still alive, Spanier, and the A/D have both been fired and both face possible future indictments, as well as very very very expensive lawsuits (as do both the Sandusky/Paterno families, as well as the school). The legal system will take care of those responsible. Thats their job, not the job of the NCAA.

And one last thing: If I were on the team, and obviously had nothing to do with any of this, I would think the fact that the NCAA is not letting my teammates and I compete in bowl games, Big Ten championships, and has erased whatever I had accomplished in previous years, even after everyone that was actually involved has been removed.... No, I would not think this punishment were at all fair. Same goes for if I were an alumni or fan.

[Bugg]

Gentlemen, the NCAA today legally stole $60 million from the victims, the school and students of Penn State and by extension the commonwealth and taxpayers of Pennsylvania. The NCAA saw an opportunity to steal and took it. Their bureacracy will be in blazers and cocktails for a long time. They stole this money without a real threat(no college football-egads!) or a gun or anything more than some well-spoken nonsense. And right now nobody is saying a damn thing about this atrocity.

[SMC]

Child rape. That's it. That's the line.

On campus.

That's the thing that boggles and stops any slippery slope argument. PSU allowed a pedophile to rape children on campus and never alerted the authorities. PSU let Sandusky to continue to use the facility even after he was indicted.

This is not the situation of a school official having kindypron on his home computer and the FBI comes down on his with the wrath of God leaving the PSU administration scrambling to understand how this could happen. PSU faciliated the abuse by allowing Sandusky access and never barring him from using the facility until it was too late.

Ganggreen, you want equivelence? Steve Spurrier being Tony Montana and running a drug empire at SC with the Pres & AD's knowledge. That's when the NCAA could look at the PSU situation as precedent.

[Jetsfan80]

Gentlemen, the NCAA today legally stole $60 million from the victims, the school and students of Penn State and by extension the commonwealth and taxpayers of Pennsylvania. The NCAA saw an opportunity to steal and took it. Their bureacracy will be in blazers and cocktails for a long time. They stole this money without a real threat(no college football-egads!) or a gun or anything more than some well-spoken nonsense. And right now nobody is saying a damn thing about this atrocity.

I think Penn State will face huge civil charges soon enough, but yeah, this shouldn't be the NCAA's money at all.

[SMC]

Gentlemen, the NCAA today legally stole $60 million from the victims, the school and students of Penn State and by extension the commonwealth and taxpayers of Pennsylvania. The NCAA saw an opportunity to steal and took it. Their bureacracy will be in blazers and cocktails for a long time. They stole this money without a real threat(no college football-egads!) or a gun or anything more than some well-spoken nonsense. And right now nobody is saying a damn thing about this atrocity.

You realize the NCAA is not going to see that $60 million, right? This is not a fine paid to the NCAA. That money is going to go to charities and foundations for child abuse prevention and victims.

The victims will still see their money from PSU because money is fungible.

I think Penn State will face huge civil charges soon enough, but yeah, this shouldn't be the NCAA's money at all.

The NCAA is not getting that money.

"The NCAA ordered Penn State to pay the penalty funds into an endowment for 'external programs preventing child sexual abuse or assisting victims and may not be used to fund such programs at the university.'"

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8191027/penn-state-hit-60-million-fine-4-year-bowl-ban-wins-dating-1998

[Bugg]

You realize the NCAA is not going to see that $60 million, right? This is not a fine paid to the NCAA. That money is going to go to charities and foundations for child abuse prevention and victims.

The victims will still see their money from PSU because money is fungible.

The NCAA is not getting that money.

"The NCAA ordered Penn State to pay the penalty funds into an endowment for 'external programs preventing child sexual abuse or assisting victims and may not be used to fund such programs at the university.'"

http://espn.go.com/c...ins-dating-1998

So you think the NCAA is not going to decide who and which charities get that money?They won't be influence how it get spent? People won't lobby to get that money? And further they will take no "administrative costs" off the top?That is a f___ing fantasy. That money should help compensate the the victims, not film some BS PSA ads to run during bowl games and March Madness. That's stealing.

[JustInFudge]

Says who? Why can't the NCAA now get involved in punishing programs who have had coaches busted in prostitute rings? Or the next time a player gets drunk at a party and is accused, and convicted, of rape?

The NCAA is going into dangerous territory with this, in my opinion. They should let the legal system take care of the legal issues...They have enough on-field corruption and cheating to deal with without doing the job of the judicial system and moral police as well.

I dunno dude, this sh*t happened within the confines of their Football program. He used the program to bait children. Again, covering it up was the advantage...whether you see it that way or not, is your choice. I personally think its blatantly obvious or there wouldnt be a cover up to begin with.

[Matt39]

Did anyone else find it weird that Paterno allowed a statue to be created of himself while he was still alive?

Bilas I thought made a great point today. He always knew Coach K was a great coach...but it ended there. Coaches coach, players play. He wasnt anymore of a good person because of Coach K. He would have been that if he had never gone to Duke.

[RutgersJetFan]

This may be out there, but I have doubts about this being an elaborate scheme by the NCAA to blackmail child abuse foundations.

[SMC]

So you think the NCAA is not going to decide who and which charities get that money?They won't be influence how it get spent? People won't lobby to get that money? And further they will take no "administrative costs" off the top?That is a f___ing fantasy. That money should help compensate the the victims, not film some BS PSA ads to run during bowl games and March Madness. That's stealing.

Um, okay.

You seem to be under the impression that this fund will be under the control of the NCAA.

And, no, that money doesn't belong to the victims because, again, money is fungible. This isn't a bankruptcy. PSU will have $60 mil to still give to the victims regardless of the sanction.

[JohnnyHector]

Bilas I thought made a great point today. He always knew Coach K was a great coach...but it ended there. Coaches coach, players play. He wasnt anymore of a good person because of Coach K. He would have been that if he had never gone to Duke.

I can't agree with this premise as an absolute at all.

Jay Bilas comes from Rolling Hills, CA - a place with the 4th-highest per capita income (with a population of 1,000+) in the country. His experience in going to Duke is not at all comparable to a poor, black kid who grew up without a father figure or any real family structure. I'm sure there are plenty of instances where organized sports and the coaches involved helped to turn 18-year old kids into better men than if they'd been left to their own devices in the street or some backwoods town.

[Matt39]

I can't agree with this premise as an absolute at all.

Jay Bilas comes from Rolling Hills, CA - a place with the 4th-highest per capita income (with a population of 1,000+) in the country. His experience in going to Duke is not at all comparable to a poor, black kid who grew up without a father figure or any real family structure. I'm sure there are plenty of instances where organized sports and the coaches involved helped to turn 18-year old kids into better men than if they'd been left to their own devices in the street or some backwoods town.

I think his point was more geared to the fact if youre going into something expecting the coach to shape you as a man...you need to reevaluate.

I'm not saying it can't happen, but I'd say our culture elevates coaches who win games into something they may not really be.

Stupid anecdote here, but my high school football coach was around forever, viewed as a legend in the town for winning and shaping kids lives....and my experience with him was that he was a miserable douchebag that enjoyed cursing at kids and telling them how sh*tty they were and treated the ones who's parents kissed his ass the best. The guy was an a$$hole and didnt do anything in terms of shaping who I was.

Thatw as kind of what Bilas was getting at I thought.