Schiano doesn't think Revis is a shutdown corner.. on a fulltime basis??

[dbatesman]

because if it's one thing firing coaches guarantees, it's that the team will get better. Just ask Tony Sparano!

 

Exactly why we never should have fired Eric Mangini.

[Integrity28]

Trading your 11th overall pick and paying a player 16 million dollars a year is usually a pretty nice way of saying....we think you're really ******* good. 

 

True, bu it's not quote the same as blubbering like an idiot into every microphone about how great every player you have is. Schiano isn't doing anything different than what Belli and most good coaches do. Brady is untouchable, but you'll still hear Belli point out what he can do better. It's what you do when your job is head coach. You help players improve upon their weaknesses, however few they many have.

[JoeKlecko]

In the beginning, (envision kelticwizard as a tall imposing figure with a flowing white robe and a long white beard), there was man-to-man pass coverage.  One CB on the split end, one on the flankerback, (those two terms were what they called wide receivers), strong safety on the tight end, and a free safety.

 

Then the wide receivers got track star fast.  And bigger.  Gradually, it was understood that the CB's couldn't cover them anymore.

 

So zone defense was invented. Receivers got better covered, but more men were used to do it.  More and more schemes were developed with the zone to help to cover the fact that more men were devoted to pass coverage.

 

The only reason anybody plays zone is because they don't have the personnel to play man-to-man.  When you pay $16 milliion to obtain the best man-to-man CB in the league, putting him in a zone is like buying a gold watch and then painting it.

 

I disagree.  To begin with, Schiano didn't  pay the $16 million. Second, even if Schiano salivated at the thought of adding Revis, to change his whole defensive philosophy and approach because of one player wouldn't necessarily be wise.  He might like to mix things up in an effort to keep opponents more off balance, rather than having them know that Revis was always going to be in man to man and be more predictable in where he was going to be.  Further, Schiano didn't say anything negative about Revis or that he intended to only use him in man coverage less than 50% of the time.  If I had to guess, Revis will still probably be in man coverage 85-90% of the time or more, Schiano just wants to make the other team guess what his stratetgy and alignments will be.  I'm also sure that there is more than one reason for playing zone.

[SenorGato]

They're paying Revis $16 million a year to cover one-on-one occasionally?

 

Boy, the Bucs really did have a lot of cap room.

 

Prime pass rushers get paid similarly high prices to occasionally sack the QB. Most get a good amount of it guaranteed. 

[kelticwizard]

Prime pass rushers get paid similarly high prices to occasionally sack the QB. Most get a good amount of it guaranteed. 

 

True, but prime pass rushers also do at least 2 other things:

 

1.  He causes the QB to hurry his pass a fair amount of the time, causing more incomplete passes and making 2nd-and-7s a much more difficult 3rd-and-7s.  Also, the interception rate goes up on hurried passes.

 

2.He causes the offense to use more men to block him, thereby weakening themselves elsewhere.

 

A prime pass rusher's contribution goes a lot deeper than number of sacks.

[bitonti]

A prime pass rusher's contribution goes a lot deeper than number of sacks.

 

and Revis' contribution goes deeper than number than INTs. He nullifies the other team's top target. 

[Scott Dierking]

and Revis' contribution goes deeper than number than INTs. He nullifies the other team's top target. 

This question should be right up your alley-

 

When NFL pro-personnel evaluate prospects, which do they tend to rate higher-Pass rushers are defensive backs?

[kelticwizard]

.... Schiano didn't say anything negative about Revis or that he intended to only use him in man coverage less than 50% of the time.  If I had to guess, Revis will still probably be in man coverage 85-90% of the time or more, Schiano just wants to make the other team guess what his stratetgy and alignments will be. 

 

I guess it all depends on how you interpret Schiano's words.  If Schiano uses Revis man-to-man 85% of the time, or even 70-75% of the time, then I can see doing that for the sake of presenting different formations and coverages for the opposing team to contend with.

 

It's just that football coaches do not tend to be chatty individuals, so if they say something is going to be different, it usually means significantly different.  That's why the OP and myself interpreted Schiano as meaning 50% or less usage of Revis Island.

[kelticwizard]

and Revis' contribution goes deeper than number than INTs. He nullifies the other team's top target. 

 

I agree.  I was responding to a poster who seemed to imply that $16 million was not that much if prime pass rushers get it, and I was just trying to point out the ways prime pass rushers change the nature of the game to earn that money.

 

By the same token, I was trying to make the point that Revis primarily changes the game by means of going one-on-one with the opponent's best receiver, thereby taking the receiver out of the game and even more importantly allowing more defenders to be used elsewhere, strengthening the defense.  If Revis is in a zone, he can't make that extra contribution which tilts the advantage toward the defense, so he would not be earning the $16 million.

[bitonti]

This question should be right up your alley-

 

When NFL pro-personnel evaluate prospects, which do they tend to rate higher-Pass rushers are defensive backs?

 

historically there have been DE and DT at the top of the board like Mario Williams and Suh. There have never been CB at the top of the draft board (in the modern era). 

 

in this specific case the Jets traded Revis a once in a generation cornerback, and there's unlikely they got a once in a generation replacement in Sheldon Richardon (or Dee Milliner).  Chances are those players can be good or very good but they won't be 4x All Pro in 5 years. 

[SenorGato]

True, but prime pass rushers also do at least 2 other things:

 

1.  He causes the QB to hurry his pass a fair amount of the time, causing more incomplete passes and making 2nd-and-7s a much more difficult 3rd-and-7s.  Also, the interception rate goes up on hurried passes.

 

2.He causes the offense to use more men to block him, thereby weakening themselves elsewhere.

 

A prime pass rusher's contribution goes a lot deeper than number of sacks.

 

1 - Revis can cause a WR to adjust his route a "fair amount of time." That throws off the timing so important in today's passing games. Interceptions happen occasionally, like all impact plays. 

 

2 - Revis causes the offense to favor another side of the field, even if he isn't on man on man by himself.

 

A shut down corner's contributions goes alot deeper than the # of times he's playing his Madden role. High end players in general.

[Scott Dierking]

historically there have been DE and DT at the top of the board like Mario Williams and Suh. There have never been CB at the top of the draft board (in the modern era). 

 

in this specific case the Jets traded Revis a once in a generation cornerback, and there's unlikely they got a once in a generation replacement in Sheldon Richardon (or Dee Milliner).  Chances are those players can be good or very good but they won't be 4x All Pro in 5 years. 

Or, Revis can blow out a knee and end a career. Time will tell

[Scott Dierking]

1 - Revis can cause a WR to adjust his route a "fair amount of time." That throws off the timing so important in today's passing games. Interceptions happen occasionally, like all impact plays. 

 

2 - Revis causes the offense to favor another side of the field, even if he isn't on man on man by himself.

 

A shut down corner's contributions goes alot deeper than the # of times he's playing his Madden role. High end players in general.

How the Jets did not go undefeated the last several years remains on of the world's great mysteries.

[SenorGato]

How the Jets did not go undefeated the last several years remains on of the world's great mysteries.

 

Hey Scott, how's it going? You've got some drool on your shirt. Try to breathe through your nose there, buddy. 

[JoeKlecko]

I guess it all depends on how you interpret Schiano's words.  If Schiano uses Revis man-to-man 85% of the time, or even 70-75% of the time, then I can see doing that for the sake of presenting different formations and coverages for the opposing team to contend with.

 

It's just that football coaches do not tend to be chatty individuals, so if they say something is going to be different, it usually means significantly different.  That's why the OP and myself interpreted Schiano as meaning 50% or less usage of Revis Island.

 

True.  You're correct that most football coaches aren't that chatty, and often times when they say something is going to be different, it is significantly different.  If I read the article correctly, then these comments were part of an interview and press conference, so he didn't exactly volunteer the information without being asked.  I don't know Schiano very well.  He may be one of those coaches who carefully thinks about everything he says before he says it, or he could be more like Rex, who tends to speak off the cuff without thinking.  Schiano seems to contradict himself in the article.  He compares Revis with Aeneas Williams and Deion Sanders (2 of the best CBs ever) which would seem to indicate that he values Revis very highly and thus one would think would use him one-on-one most of the time, but then does say that he intends to put Revis on an island some of the time, not most.  So I see your point.  I missed that key word "some" initially.  I also have to think that that Bucs beat writer probably knows Schiano better than I, so he (and you) may have the right understanding of Schiano's comments and I could very well be wrong.  If the author is right, and Schiano does plan to use Revis as just another CB as a part of his system, that does seem like it would be a colossal mistake.  That said, we need to see how Revis is used and how well Schiano's D works in the way he uses Revis.  He may intend to use Revis one way, and then wind up using him in a totally different manner.

 

Even though we know Revis can shut down any WR, with more and more 3 and 4 WR sets, Revis becomes less important, particularly if the Bucs have a good pass rush.  Since Revis is a good tackler and good vs the run, Schiano may have a system in mind that will work well using Revis in that way.  I thought that Schiano was a very good coach while at Rutgers, but don't know what kind of job he's done so far in the NFL.  It will be interesting to see what happens.

 

Thanks for your response.

[Scott Dierking]

Hey Scott, how's it going? You've got some drool on your shirt. Try to breathe through your nose there, buddy. 

You are obviously projecting your Starlin Castro angst toward me. It's ok bud.

[JoeKlecko]

historically there have been DE and DT at the top of the board like Mario Williams and Suh. There have never been CB at the top of the draft board (in the modern era). 

 

in this specific case the Jets traded Revis a once in a generation cornerback, and there's unlikely they got a once in a generation replacement in Sheldon Richardon (or Dee Milliner).  Chances are those players can be good or very good but they won't be 4x All Pro in 5 years. 

 

Perhaps not, but they could wind up having a bigger impact on the D if Milliner is anywhere close to Revis in play and if Richardson's as good as he seems to be.  With a greater pass rush, one doesn't necessarily need an All Pro CB, especially one who is taking up an inordinate amount of cap space, and one who was a big part of the circus always holding out or a threat to.

 

With more and more teams using 3 and 4-WR sets, taking out the #1 WR is less important.  The QB can turn to the other WRs or TEs and still consistently beat a team the way the Pats and other teams have the Jets the last couple of years.

[bitonti]

Perhaps not, but they could wind up having a bigger impact on the D if Milliner is anywhere close to Revis in play and if Richardson's as good as he seems to be.  With a greater pass rush, one doesn't necessarily need an All Pro CB, especially one who is taking up an inordinate amount of cap space, and one who was a big part of the circus always holding out or a threat to. 

 

that's all well and good but Sheldon Richardson wasn't exactly Suh coming out. "as good as he seems to be" how good is that exactly? 

 

http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/playerDetail.jsp?yr=2012&org=434&player=34

[pointman]

1 - Revis can cause a WR to adjust his route a "fair amount of time." That throws off the timing so important in today's passing games. Interceptions happen occasionally, like all impact plays. 

 

2 - Revis causes the offense to favor another side of the field, even if he isn't on man on man by himself.

 

A shut down corner's contributions goes alot deeper than the # of times he's playing his Madden role. High end players in general.

Calvin Johnson owns Revis in Madden. Sad, really.

[Blackout]

Calvin Johnson owns Revis in Madden. Sad, really.

 

 

that's almost as silly as the first NBA Jam making Reggie Miller an average three point shooter

[JoeKlecko]

that's all well and good but Sheldon Richardson wasn't exactly Suh coming out. "as good as he seems to be" how good is that exactly? 

 

http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/playerDetail.jsp?yr=2012&org=434&player=34

He had an excellent season in the SEC last year, and with his non-stop motor, speed and athleticism, I really like his chances.  When coupled with Wilkerson, Coples and Ellis, as well as the others, the Jets could have have one of the best DLs in the game.  If Coples, Sapp and Barnes can provide any kind of pass rush, the Jets could have one of the best front 7s.  I'd rather have that any day than an All Pro CB.

[pointman]

that's almost as silly as the first NBA Jam making Reggie Miller an average three point shooter

I like you. 

[Blackout]

I like you. 

 

[bitonti]

He had an excellent season in the SEC last year,  

 

He had 4 sacks according to NCAA.org and others have said it's has high as 6. how is that an excellent season? 

[Integrity28]

1 - Revis can cause a WR to adjust his route a "fair amount of time." That throws off the timing so important in today's passing games. Interceptions happen occasionally, like all impact plays. 

 

2 - Revis causes the offense to favor another side of the field, even if he isn't on man on man by himself.

 

A shut down corner's contributions goes alot deeper than the # of times he's playing his Madden role. High end players in general.

 

ROOT TREES FTMFW!!!! 

[JoeKlecko]

He had 4 sacks according to NCAA.org and others have said it's has high as 6. how is that an excellent season? 

 

For a DT in his first season of SEC play.  I think he also had a number of tackles for loss, QB hurries, etc.  Based on the limited footage I've seen and what I've read, the key point is that he consistently got penedtration and had a very high motor.  With his athleticism, quickness and speed, that should translate well into the NFL.

[bitonti]

For a DT in his first season of SEC play.  I think he also had a number of tackles for loss, QB hurries, etc.  Based on the limited footage I've seen and what I've read, the key point is that he consistently got penedtration and had a very high motor.  With his athleticism, quickness and speed, that should translate well into the NFL.

 

he has 9 hurries on his career. He had the same number of sacks 2 in his year in SEC as in his year in the Big 12. I agree that it should translate but it's a projection. a hope. We are hoping he has way more sacks in his pro career than in his college career.

[JoeKlecko]

he has 9 hurries on his career. He had the same number of sacks 2 in his year in SEC as in his year in the Big 12. I agree that it should translate but it's a projection. a hope. We are hoping he has way more sacks in his pro career than in his college career.

 

Yes, definitely.  I just think that everything is relative.  I didn't say that he had a "great" or "dominant" year, just an excellent one considering where he'd been previously.  I think moving from the Big 12 to the SEC was a bit of a step up in level of competition and probably in the coaching he received and it takes time to adjust. He probably is still quite raw, and was drafted more on potential/ceiling than actual production, but I think his production is good enough, and he showed enough potential and work ethic to make the Jets think he can be something really special.  To be honest, a big part of my high opinion of him has to do with the fact that Idzik had him so highly rated.  At this point, I have no reason not to trust Idzik.  That is subject to change of course.

[bitonti]

  but I think his production is good enough, and he showed enough potential and work ethic to make the Jets think he can be something really special.  To be honest, a big part of my high opinion of him has to do with the fact that Idzik had him so highly rated.  At this point, I have no reason not to trust Idzik.  That is subject to change of course.

 

I actually like the Richardson pick but how is 2 sacks a year "good enough" production.  Let's just admit it his production stunk and they drafted him on potential. 

[jbone]

I actually like the Richardson pick but how is 2 sacks a year "good enough" production.  Let's just admit it his production stunk and they drafted him on potential. 

Guys was second on his team in tackles as a DT and lead all SEC interior Dlineman in tackles. 

 

That's the definition of production. Your focus on sacks is clouding your better judgment.

[bitonti]

Guys was second on his team in tackles as a DT and lead all SEC interior Dlineman in tackles. 

 

That's the definition of production. Your focus on sacks is clouding your better judgment.

 

he has about 1 TFL a game. 54 tackles total in 24 games. 

 

sacks don't matter, since when? It's pretty much the only way anyone judges these guys. Richardson was not drafted to stop the run or be the next James Reed. 

[Sperm Edwards]

historically there have been DE and DT at the top of the board like Mario Williams and Suh. There have never been CB at the top of the draft board (in the modern era). 

 

in this specific case the Jets traded Revis a once in a generation cornerback, and there's unlikely they got a once in a generation replacement in Sheldon Richardon (or Dee Milliner).  Chances are those players can be good or very good but they won't be 4x All Pro in 5 years. 

 

The Jets got more than Sheldon Richardson no matter how many times people write it.

[jbone]

he has about 1 TFL a game. 54 tackles total in 24 games. 

 

sacks don't matter, since when? It's pretty much the only way anyone judges these guys. Richardson was not drafted to stop the run or be the next James Reed. 

I'd love for you to show me where I said sacks don't matter. Your over infatuation with sacks is clouding your better judgment if you come to the conclusion Richardson didn't produce while at Mizzou.  The guy shad 75 tackles last year alone, what are u talking about with this 54 number?

 

We didn't draft him to be Reggie White or Demarcus Ware either.

[bitonti]

I'd love for you to show me where I said sacks don't matter. Your over infatuation with sacks is clouding your better judgment if you come to the conclusion Richardson didn't produce while at Mizzou.  The guy shad 75 tackles last year alone, what are u talking about with this 54 number?

 

We didn't draft him to be Reggie White or Demarcus Ware either.

 

ncaa org link earlier in this thread. Where are you getting 75? espn? 

 

it's not my infatuation. it's everyone's

 

if Sheldon Richardson becomes a high tackle, low sack player in the NFL he will be looked as a bust. 

[jbone]

ncaa org link earlier in this thread. Where are you getting 75? espn? 

 

it's not my infatuation. it's everyone's

 

if Sheldon Richardson becomes a high tackle, low sack player in the NFL he will be looked as a bust. 

Yea, that Mo Wilkerson is a huge bust with his high tackle and low sack numbers. 

 

http://www.mutigers.com/sports/m-footbl/stats/2012-2013/indgbg.html#IGBG.DEF