Rex Ryan's pros outweigh his cons.

[Matt39]

Steamrolled?  Really?  In the 2009 Colts game, Sanchez completed 17 passes.  The moment Shonn Greene got hurt we failed to move the ball at all.  Yes, I'll give you that Peyton Manning did Peyton Manning things in that 2nd half.  But giving up 377 yds and 30 pts is hardly getting "steamrolled" by maybe the best QB who has ever lived.  That's a pretty typical performance for him. 

 

2010 is an even poorer example.  The defense allowed 17 points, all in the 1st half. 

 

And you expected Mark Sanchez to match that?

[Scott Dierking]

  But giving up 377 yds and 30 pts is hardly getting "steamrolled" by maybe the best QB who has ever lived.  That's a pretty typical performance for him. 

 

 

Should we not expect the "greatest defensive mind in football" to hold the "best qb' to a better than "typical" performance?

 

What's his use then? Just saying.

[JiFtheOracle]

Pete Carrol and Jim Harbaugh suck as head coaches too.  Both of their teams came out flat and got "steamrolled" in the playoffs much worse than Rex Ryan with much more talent on defense and it wasnt their rookie season as a HC and it wasnt Peyton Manning.

 

EDIT: Throw BB in there too, steamrolled by the Ravens in the playoffs.

[T0mShane]

Sperm's gonna go nuts on you for that one.

The pro-Rex set is claiming that if he had an average quarterback in the playoffs, he'd have won the Super Bowl. In those two games, Rex had an average quarterback.

[T0mShane]

Steamrolled? Really? In the 2009 Colts game, Sanchez completed 17 passes. The moment Shonn Greene got hurt we failed to move the ball at all. Yes, I'll give you that Peyton Manning did Peyton Manning things in that 2nd half. But giving up 377 yds and 30 pts is hardly getting "steamrolled" by maybe the best QB who has ever lived. That's a pretty typical performance for him.

2010 is an even poorer example. The defense allowed 17 points, all in the 1st half.

Lol

[Jetsfan80]

The pro-Rex set is claiming that if he had an average quarterback in the playoffs, he'd have won the Super Bowl. In those two games, Rex had an average quarterback.

 

Not even close.  Average by maybe 1999 standards.

[Jetsfan80]

And you expected Mark Sanchez to match that?

 

No, because he's tied with Joey Harrington for being the worst 4-year starting QB in NFL history. 

[Jetsfan80]

Should we not expect the "greatest defensive mind in football" to hold the "best qb' to a better than "typical" performance?

 

What's his use then? Just saying.

 

Pretty sure he did exactly that to Peyton and Brady the next season.  He learned some things after his FIRST NFL season as a Head Coach.

[T0mShane]

Not even close. Average by maybe 1999 standards.

Yeah, with those leather helmets.

[Jetsfan80]

Yeah, with those leather helmets.

 

Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson both won Super Bowls just over a decade ago.  The game has indeed changed in a monumental way since even then.

[Scott Dierking]

Pretty sure he did exactly that to Peyton and Brady the next season.  He learned some things after his FIRST NFL season as a Head Coach.

In the 2 biggest games of his coaching career, the defense came up flat. There is no denying that.

 

I hope he gets another chance to coach that game with the Jets, but not so sure,

[Jetsfan80]

In the 2 biggest games of his coaching career, the defense came up flat. There is no denying that.

 

I hope he gets another chance to coach that game with the Jets, but not so sure,

 

He gives us a great chance to do so.  It sucks so much that we came so close and were maybe just a Brett Favre away from winning it all at least once, maybe twice.  So sad.

[JiFtheOracle]

In the 2 biggest games of his coaching career, the defense came up flat. There is no denying that.

I hope he gets another chance to coach that game with the Jets, but not so sure,

So did Pete Carroll's and Jim Harbdaughs with superior teams. They suck too.

[bassmaster2]

No matter who's in charge of "game time decisions," things like blown challenges and timeouts will always be over-scrutinized. But if Mornhinweg is competent as an OC, and Idzik is a competent executive, with a competent team of talent evaluators around him, Rex is a damn good coach to have.

I kind of agree with you ,This is the first time Rex blown time outs ,he must of been getting bad information from upstairs ,If Rex wins 8 games it would be hard to fire him ,I kind like the may Mornhinweg is working with the young QB

[Larz]

Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson both won Super Bowls just over a decade ago.  The game has indeed changed in a monumental way since even then.

 

outside of injury rules, how so ?     the read option, wildcat, hurry up, are all very old ideas.  what else ya got ?  rookie QB's starting ?  that's not new either

 

rex runs a defense his dad ran in the 80's

morningwood runs an offense from the 80's

boomer ran a hurry up in the 80's

[Larz]

when kevin kelley gets to the NFL, you can say things have changed

 

In 2005, your columnist chatted at a cocktail party with Don Shula, asking him if there was any fundamental football innovation yet to be tried. "Someday," Shula said with a twinkle in his eye, "there will be a coach who doesn't punt."

 

 

 

 

 

Turns out 2005 was the very year the idea was tried. Kevin Kelley, head coach of Pulaski Academy in Little Rock, Ark., stopped sending in the punt unit, and his charges reached the state quarterfinals. The next year Pulaski didn't punt once, and reached the state championship. In 2007, TMQ wrote about the Pulaski Bruins and Kelley's tactics. That season Pulaski punted twice, both times after attaining insurmountable leads.

 

 

What's happened lately? Below are Pulaski's most recent season results in fourth-down terms. The Bruins:

 

 

• 2009 -- Punted twice, reached state semifinals.

 

 

• 2010 -- Did not punt, reached state title game.

 

 

• 2011 -- Punted once, won state championship.

 

 

Kelley holds other unorthodox views of kicking downs. He almost always has Pulaski onside kick, reasoning that the roughly one-in-three chance of recovering (thus creating a turnover) is worth the two-in-three chance of surrendering field position. "In high school the average opponent start after a regular kickoff is the 33-yard line. After a failed onside it is the 47," he says. "So you are risking 14 yards of field position in return for a good chance of a turnover. If there was a blitz action that would risk a 14-yard gain by the offense versus a turnover for your defense, you'd call it constantly. That is the equation for an onside, yet the play is hardly ever called."

 

 

 

When the other team punts, Pulaski rarely has a returner on the field. Kelley reasons that a muffed or fumbled punt is about as likely as a long return, and so is content simply to let the punt roll, in order to ensure his side takes possession.

 

Kelley rarely sends a rush after a punter, reasoning that a roughing-the-kicker penalty is more likely than a block.

 

 

"Everyone says football is a game of field position, but it's not," Kelley maintains. "It's a game of scoring points, which only happens when you possess the ball. If you're not obsessed with field position, then you don't punt. You onside a lot. You don't even try to return punts or to block punts, because getting the ball back is far more important than risking a muff or a roughing-the-kicker flag."

 

 

Kelley's logic about onside kickoffs and not returning punts may apply more to high school than the college and pro levels of the sport, where muffs are less frequent and touchbacks more common. In the NFL, a surprise onside kick is a chance of a turnover versus a surrender of 35 yards of field position. But his argument for going for it on most fourth downs seems sound across all levels of football.

 

 

Last year the typical NFL offensive play gained 5.4 yards. If it's fourth-and-3 or less, going for the first is likely to result in keeping possession. Of course a fourth-down try may fail, giving the other team the ball, but a punt is certain to give the other team the ball. So why do NFL teams almost always punt in fourth-and-short situations, surrendering possession? It's a game of points, and scoring points requires possessing the ball.

 

 

 

 

Here in 2007, TMQ detailed the math of rarely punting. The Accuscore computer simulated thousands of NFL games for TMQ using NFL stats, and found that at the pro level, rarely punting made victory 5 percent more likely. In a 16-game NFL season, that means one additional victory per year.

 

 

"When coaches go for it on fourth-and-short, announcers call that a huge gamble," Kelley says. "It is not a gamble, it is playing the percentages. The gamble is punting! But coaches are afraid of criticism, so they order punts."

 

 

Consider that the Giants-versus-Bills Super Bowl in 1991 came down to a 47-yard field goal attempt on grass as the clock expired. When the kicker missed, he was blamed for the loss, though 47 yards on grass is 50/50 for the best place-kickers. Earlier in the game, Buffalo punted on fourth-and-1 from midfield and on fourth-and-2 from the Giants' 44. The Bills were the league's highest-scoring team that year, averaging 6.3 yards per offensive snap. Had Buffalo gone for it on those fourth-and-short situations, victory was likely. But had Buffalo gone for it and failed, coach Marv Levy would have been roasted with criticism. He did the expected, sent in the punting unit, lost the game -- and the blame went to someone else.

 

 

When Bill Belichick went for it on fourth-and-2 in Patriots territory to ice a game at Indianapolis, and the play failed, he was widely ridiculed in the world of sportsyak. Belichick absolutely made the right call; the play just didn't work. But the lesson to coaches was, "Punt and avoid criticism."

 

 

 

 

 

TMQ considers Kevin Kelley of Pulaski Academy the most innovative coach in football. Will anyone at higher levels of the sport ever listen to him? Recently Rocky Long, coach of San Diego State, declared that he "might" take Kelley's advice.Let's see if he does.

 

 

This season, Tuesday Morning Quarterback will track Pulaski's progress with weekly items on every fourth down that the Bruins face, what Kelley calls, and what the play and game results are. Pulaski opens its season Friday night, so the first weekly item about the program -- Friends Don't Let Friends Punt -- will run next Tuesday.

 

 

[slats]

Rex is still going to have to be an active participant in player evaluation, even if he's not given a final vote in the selection process, and he's going to have to do a better job of developing the talent given to him. No player drafted under Rex Ryan and his staff has so much as made the Pro Bowl, which is unconscionable for a player's coach who is allegedly a great teacher of the game.

 

This is one that I know you love to trot out there, but it's total BS. The Jets first two drafts under Rex totaled 7 players. That's seven players drafted over two years. Of those seven players, only one was a defensive player, and that was Kyle Wilson. Who, even if he were capable of playing at a high level, would still've been behind Revis and Cro. Who, exactly, was he supposed to coach into the pro bowl?

Mo Wilkerson? He probably should've made it last year. He'll probably make it this year. Will that be good?

 

What in Rex's history makes you want to give him another quarterback to develop? Say what you will about Sanchez, but his development couldn't have been handled worse than it was. The best case scenario is that Rex stays 500 yards away from Geno at all times, and Geno develops into Matt Schaub(?) under Marty Mornhinweg. Shouldn't we aspire to a bit more than that?

The Jets undoubtedly did a horrendous job with Sanchez, but again, how much can you fault Rex? Brian Schottenheimer was Tanny's second choice for head coach when he hired Rex. Rex was told he'd be his OC, he didn't have a choice in the matter, and we don't know when he was finally given authority to let him go. Schotty worked out Sanchez, gave him the stamp of approval, and spend four years with him.

Simultaneously, the front office largely avoided the all important weapons a QB might want to help him develop.

The Jets as an organization have been pretty blunderful under Woody and Tanny. Rex probably shouldn't get off scot-free here, but he's had next to zero support in the front office, at OC, or at QB for his entire career. I just don't think it's fair to judge him given those circumstances.

[T0mShane]

This is one that I know you love to trot out there, but it's total BS. The Jets first two drafts under Rex totaled 7 players. That's seven players drafted over two years. Of those seven players, only one was a defensive player, and that was Kyle Wilson. Who, even if he were capable of playing at a high level, would still've been behind Revis and Cro. Who, exactly, was he supposed to coach into the pro bowl?

Mo Wilkerson? He probably should've made it last year. He'll probably make it this year. Will that be good?

This is only the second time I've mentioned it. It just seems like more because 1. It's counter-intuitive because you'd assume that Rex and staff would coach up more guys like they used to in Baltimore and 2. Because its slightly intellectually dishonest. The Pro Bowl is a popularity contest. As I mentioned to Sperm, it's more a curiosity that happens to be illustrative of the issues the organization has had in bringing players along. Rex was in Baltimore when they found Bart Scott and Jim Leonhard on the street, and I think we all assumed he'd have similar success here, but other than Pouha and Snacks, it's never really manifested. It's an across the board issue, from Tannenbaum to Rex to Pettine to Dennis Thurman and Schottenheimer, etc. They haven't done a good job developing contributors.

The Jets undoubtedly did a horrendous job with Sanchez, but again, how much can you fault Rex? Brian Schottenheimer was Tanny's second choice for head coach when he hired Rex. Rex was told he'd be his OC, he didn't have a choice in the matter, and we don't know when he was finally given authority to let him go. Schotty worked out Sanchez, gave him the stamp of approval, and spend four years with him.

These are good points you make, that Sanchez was left to the devices of the awful Schottenheimer. I think the blame travels far and wide, though. Sanchez, the last two seasons, was in an emo tailspin and there was no intervention. Rex was the one who hired Sparano, and it was very likely Rex who thumbs-upped the Derrick Mason, Plaxico Buress, Santonio Holmes AFC North cabal that sent Sanchez into deep, deep depression. While you're right that Rex didn't directly pork Sanchez, he's at least guilty of being oblivious to the plight of his most important player.

The Jets as an organization have been pretty blunderful under Woody and Tanny. Rex probably shouldn't get off scot-free here, but he's had next to zero support in the front office, at OC, or at QB for his entire career. I just don't think it's fair to judge him given those circumstances.

That's all I've consistently asked for, that Rex shares in the blame. Pick your percentage--10%, 20%, 50%--but if we're going to judge the merits of keeping Rex, it's silly to completely exonerate him of the failures from the past four years, just as it's unfair to ignore the successes. All I'm saying.

[Sperm Edwards]

Among whom? We're concerned about Willie Colon imploding?

I have literally never said we should hire Gruden, ever. I implied that Woody would hire Gruden only to antagonize dbatesman. It was an in-joke amongst The Ilk.

Agreed.

The 09 and 10 playoff runs did not end because Sanchez played poorly. The ended because the defense got steamrolled both years.

Agreed it's not my strongest argument, but I think it's a curiosity considering he's considered to be a player's coach. The lack of development of players not on the defensive line has been a huge issue for this franchise.

Unless there was a mandate to keep playing Sanchez, Rex can't be fully exonerated for the Sanchez Problem.

Agreed with all the above.

 

I'm not going to re-post the same thing over again about the championship games.  Sanchez gets credit for doing a whole lot of things he didn't do in the playoffs.  And he did play poorly.  

 

Too much here to respond line for line, but quite a bit of what you wrote is silly.  Sure, it's Willie Colon (who's a FA next year) that concerns me.  OK.  Stuff like that.  

 

He's developed (or overseen the development of) plenty of high-performing players on D and I named them (Devito, Pouha, Snacks, Wilkerson, Davis).  The only defender who clearly hasn't developed is Kyle Wilson.  I will give Rex the benefit of the doubt on that one rather than Wilson, and believe that to be fair.  Maybe Ellis also, but he's been hurt for what seems like his whole career.  Who are all these other mythical players that failed to develop? I think you are confusing this team with some other one that drafted a bunch of defensive busts with pick after pick thrown at them:

 

2009 = no defensive players drafted.

 

2010 = Kyle Wilson.  He's not even so terrible in coverage (given today's rules).  But he's a punk who clearly has some deficiencies upstairs. No other defensive players drafted.

 

2011 = Wilkerson (stud), and Kenrick Ellis (injured too much to get a real take on one way or the other).  The other 4 picks were offense.

 

Keep in mind, at this point you're complaining about players who hadn't fully developed as rookies.  

 

2012 = Coples (looked good not great as a rookie, though the same could be said of Wilkerson); has played 1 game this year due to a leg fracture. Demario Davis didn't start out great but looks great now; as much as anything, that type of growth speaks to player development.  Jets also drafted 2 safeties in rounds 6 and 7.  The latter of the two is starting.

 

2013 = We're 3 games into the season.  Milliner and Richardson are the 2 defensive players taken.  One clearly needs work and the other already looks great.

 

 

So heading into 2013 the Jets drafted 6 players on defense.  Two of them were round 6-7 safeties.  One is a punk CB who isn't THAT bad.  Another has been hurt most of his career.  We're all happy with the others (though we'd like to see more from Coples, but he's only played 1 season so far).

 

 

The funny thing in all this is I'm not even so gung-ho on Rex as a HC.  I just think he offers a lot more than he's given credit for, and it's not going to be so simple to find someone equal or better.  

[T0mShane]

I'm not going to re-post the same thing over again about the championship games. Sanchez gets credit for doing a whole lot of things he didn't do in the playoffs. And he did play poorly.

Too much here to respond line for line, but quite a bit of what you wrote is silly. Sure, it's Willie Colon (who's a FA next year) that concerns me. OK. Stuff like that.

He's developed (or overseen the development of) plenty of high-performing players on D and I named them (Devito, Pouha, Snacks, Wilkerson, Davis). The only defender who clearly hasn't developed is Kyle Wilson. I will give Rex the benefit of the doubt on that one rather than Wilson, and believe that to be fair. Maybe Ellis also, but he's been hurt for what seems like his whole career. Who are all these other mythical players that failed to develop? I think you are confusing this team with some other one that drafted a bunch of defensive busts with pick after pick thrown at them:

2009 = no defensive players drafted.

2010 = Kyle Wilson. He's not even so terrible in coverage (given today's rules). But he's a punk who clearly has some deficiencies upstairs. No other defensive players drafted.

2011 = Wilkerson (stud), and Kenrick Ellis (injured too much to get a real take on one way or the other). The other 4 picks were offense.

Keep in mind, at this point you're complaining about players who hadn't fully developed as rookies.

2012 = Coples (looked good not great as a rookie, though the same could be said of Wilkerson); has played 1 game this year due to a leg fracture. Demario Davis didn't start out great but looks great now; as much as anything, that type of growth speaks to player development. Jets also drafted 2 safeties in rounds 6 and 7. The latter of the two is starting.

2013 = We're 3 games into the season. Milliner and Richardson are the 2 defensive players taken. One clearly needs work and the other already looks great.

So heading into 2013 the Jets drafted 6 players on defense. Two of them were round 6-7 safeties. One is a punk CB who isn't THAT bad. Another has been hurt most of his career. We're all happy with the others (though we'd like to see more from Coples, but he's only played 1 season so far).

The funny thing in all this is I'm not even so gung-ho on Rex as a HC. I just think he offers a lot more than he's given credit for, and it's not going to be so simple to find someone equal or better.

I don't understand why you're focusing solely on defensive players. And you're repeating Devito, Pouha and Snacks Harrison as if producing two nose tackles and a scrappy DE in four years disproves my opinion that Rex and his staff haven't done a good job developing talent.. And with all due respect, the one part of our little discussion here that can be described as "silly" is the idea that the whole team will implode if Rex is fired.

[slats]

This is only the second time I've mentioned it. It just seems like more because 1. It's counter-intuitive because you'd assume that Rex and staff would coach up more guys like they used to in Baltimore and 2. Because its slightly intellectually dishonest. The Pro Bowl is a popularity contest. As I mentioned to Sperm, it's more a curiosity that happens to be illustrative of the issues the organization has had in bringing players along. Rex was in Baltimore when they found Bart Scott and Jim Leonhard on the street, and I think we all assumed he'd have similar success here, but other than Pouha and Snacks, it's never really manifested. It's an across the board issue, from Tannenbaum to Rex to Pettine to Dennis Thurman and Schottenheimer, etc. They haven't done a good job developing contributors.

DeVito developed pretty well. Allen and Walls look like contributors. Offensively, Slauson developed. Cumberland developed a little bit. I think a better question is what has Rex had to work with? How many potential contributors did the front office deliver to Rex that he failed to develop, and went on to success elsewhere?

These are good points you make, that Sanchez was left to the devices of the awful Schottenheimer. I think the blame travels far and wide, though. Sanchez, the last two seasons, was in an emo tailspin and there was no intervention. Rex was the one who hired Sparano, and it was very likely Rex who thumbs-upped the Derrick Mason, Plaxico Buress, Santonio Holmes AFC North cabal that sent Sanchez into deep, deep depression. While you're right that Rex didn't directly pork Sanchez, he's at least guilty of being oblivious to the plight of his most important player.

Rex also cut Mason during the season, and the team let Buress walk after the season. He fired Sparano after one season, and stated publicly -long before Idzik was hired- that he needed to get more aggressive on offense. Looks to me like all of those things were learning experiences for Rex, and that he actually learned the right things. I don't think Rex believes he can coach anyone anymore.

And Holmes, for all his many faults, is still probably the Jets best offensive player, and he's playing for his next paycheck. He's a good guy for Rex to have in a year when he's coaching for his job, too.

That's all I've consistently asked for, that Rex shares in the blame. Pick your percentage--10%, 20%, 50%--but if we're going to judge the merits of keeping Rex, it's silly to completely exonerate him of the failures from the past four years, just as it's unfair to ignore the successes. All I'm saying.

Haha! You've consistently asked for Rex to be fired! At least since Tannenbaum got fired for many of the same things you've now been trying to pin on Rex. In fact, you considered it a done deal. Now, 2-1 into his busy season, and he's a candidate for the head coaching job in your eyes. He's come a long way already.

And no one completely exonerates Rex. I've consistently described him as flawed. I've cited his defensive abilities as a major asset, and as something I wouldn't be quick to throwaway. The percentage he's to blame? How much is really left over after you consider his GM, OC, and QB for most of his time here? If the Jets have really upgraded at all of those positions in one offseason, I think the team is in excellent shape - with Rex. I definitely think Rex can win a Super Bowl. If guys like Caldwell, Martz, or Fassel can coach their way to the game, or guys like Billick, Gruden, or Coughlin's can actually win it - then Rex can win a Super Bowl, too.

[Kleckineau]

Haha! You've consistently asked for Rex to be fired! At least since Tannenbaum got fired for many of the same things you've now been trying to pin on Rex. In fact, you considered it a done deal. Now, 2-1 into his busy season, and he's a candidate for the head coaching job in your eyes. He's come a long way already.

And no one completely exonerates Rex. I've consistently described him as flawed. I've cited his defensive abilities as a major asset, and as something I wouldn't be quick to throwaway. The percentage he's to blame? How much is really left over after you consider his GM, OC, and QB for most of his time here? If the Jets have really upgraded at all of those positions in one offseason, I think the team is in excellent shape - with Rex. I definitely think Rex can win a Super Bowl. If guys like Caldwell, Martz, or Fassel can coach their way to the game, or guys like Billick, Gruden, or Coughlin's can actually win it - then Rex can win a Super Bowl, too.

Good points except where you include a Coughlin, a hall of fame coach. Maybe Bill Callahan instead?

[T0mShane]

DeVito developed pretty well. Allen and Walls look like contributors. Offensively, Slauson developed. Cumberland developed a little bit. I think a better question is what has Rex had to work with? How many potential contributors did the front office deliver to Rex that he failed to develop, and went on to success elsewhere?

He's been here five offseasons, meaning he's had about 500 players come through the door. It's hard to believe that there weren't more than a handful that could have become more than bench fodder.

Rex also cut Mason during the season, and the team let Buress walk after the season. He fired Sparano after one season, and stated publicly -long before Idzik was hired- that he needed to get more aggressive on offense. Looks to me like all of those things were learning experiences for Rex, and that he actually learned the right things. I don't think Rex believes he can coach anyone anymore.

This falls under the heading of "Hopes for a Future Rex That We've Never Seen."

And Holmes, for all his many faults, is still probably the Jets best offensive player, and he's playing for his next paycheck. He's a good guy for Rex to have in a year when he's coaching for his job, too.

Fair, but all things considered, Holmes has been a disaster. No player flouted Rex's frat-house style more than Holmes.

Haha! You've consistently asked for Rex to be fired!

This is my conclusion, yes, and it was met with these revisionist counters that wanted to portray Rex as a victim who parachutes into an untenable situation every August. I don't expect everyone to agree that his failings should lead to his firing, but the over-correction on the parts of some posters has been hilarious.

At least since Tannenbaum got fired for many of the same things you've now been trying to pin on Rex.

I don't believe I have. Tannenbaum sucked, and Rex has sucked. Some of that suckage overlapped. It's more likely that many in the pro-Rex camp are desperate to believe that all the problems of this franchise were swept out with Tannenbaum. I think that's overly optimistic.

In fact, you considered it a done deal. Now, 2-1 into his busy season, and he's a candidate for the head coaching job in your eyes. He's come a long way already.

I still consider a done deal. He's a candidate like Herm Edwards is a candidate. If he pulls off an 8-8, he climbs the list, but I think it's more likely that he's going to end up like Lovie Smith.

And no one completely exonerates Rex. I've consistently described him as flawed. I've cited his defensive abilities as a major asset, and as something I wouldn't be quick to throwaway. The percentage he's to blame? How much is really left over after you consider his GM, OC, and QB for most of his time here? If the Jets have really upgraded at all of those positions in one offseason, I think the team is in excellent shape - with Rex. I definitely think Rex can win a Super Bowl. If guys like Caldwell, Martz, or Fassel can coach their way to the game, or guys like Billick, Gruden, or Coughlin's can actually win it - then Rex can win a Super Bowl, too.

We just disagree here. I think his flaws are fatal. You guys are more optimistic. Should make for some fun this year. Please don't conspire to ban me, you two.

[Bugg]

DeVito developed pretty well. Allen and Walls look like contributors. Offensively, Slauson developed. Cumberland developed a little bit. I think a better question is what has Rex had to work with? How many potential contributors did the front office deliver to Rex that he failed to develop, and went on to success elsewhere?

Rex also cut Mason during the season, and the team let Buress walk after the season. Looks to me like all of those things were learning experiences for Rex, and that he actually learned the right things. I don't think Rex believes he can coach anyone anymore.

And Holmes, for all his many faults, is still probably the Jets best offensive player, and he's playing for his next paycheck. He's a good guy for Rex to have in a year when he's coaching for his job, too.

Haha! You've consistently asked for Rex to be fired! At least since Tannenbaum got fired for many of the same things you've now been trying to pin on Rex. In fact, you considered it a done deal. Now, 2-1 into his busy season, and he's a candidate for the head coaching job in your eyes. He's come a long way already.

And no one completely exonerates Rex. I've consistently described him as flawed. I've cited his defensive abilities as a major asset, and as something I wouldn't be quick to throwaway. The percentage he's to blame? How much is really left over after you consider his GM, OC, and QB for most of his time here? If the Jets have really upgraded at all of those positions in one offseason, I think the team is in excellent shape - with Rex. I definitely think Rex can win a Super Bowl. If guys like Caldwell, Martz, or Fassel can coach their way to the game, or guys like Billick, Gruden, or Coughlin's can actually win it - then Rex can win a Super Bowl, too.

"He fired Sparano after one season, and stated publicly -long before Idzik was hired- that he needed to get more aggressive on offense."

It took Wrecks this long to grasp you have to throw the ball effectively to win? He sat through 4 years of 3-yard outs on 3rd and 6 and NOW realized the offense was a disaster. Which is why all the tough guy talk is really empty and hollow nonsense.And why he figures to be out in January and never be a HC again. You cannot ignore a whole unit like that and expect teams to hire you as HC. Strangely assuming the offense keeps up this level of okayness Morningwheg may outlast Wrecks here or at least be considered for another HC gig despite the disaster that was his tenure in Detroit.

[CTM]

You're not really trying to pin traded draft picks on Rex, are you?

I will... anyone who pays attention to who we've been drafting and signing and think tannenbaum was the driving force is a klogical thinker

[Sperm Edwards]

I don't understand why you're focusing solely on defensive players. And you're repeating Devito, Pouha and Snacks Harrison as if producing two nose tackles and a scrappy DE in four years disproves my opinion that Rex and his staff haven't done a good job developing talent.. And with all due respect, the one part of our little discussion here that can be described as "silly" is the idea that the whole team will implode if Rex is fired.

 

I was focusing solely on the D players because he's a D coach and I figured him to be more hands-on in their development.  I don't expect Rex to personally develop the mostly crappy-talent offensive players that the Jets have drafted (or signed as UDFA rookies) into studs.  

 

But on Rex's watch here they all are on offense:

 

QB Sanchez couldn't, can't, and never will be able to handle the speed of the game.  He's a bust that was, in hindsight, drafted way too high and can only succeed if he has enough time to stand still in the pocket until the receiver he's staring down gets open (and even then he often fails).  The backups given to Rex to develop were Clemens, Ainge, O'Connell, Tebow, and McElroy.  Through 3 games, I'm totally happy with Smith's development so far.

 

RB Greene was slow, a generally poor receiver, and was always banged up to the point where it affected his performance (or that was always the excuse anyway).  Joe McKnight was fast and didn't develop as anything other than a KR.  Bilal Powell seems to have been developed to his maximum ability.

 

FB Conner - Rex's pick, demonstrating why he is not an NFL scout or GM - was and is a failure.  In terms of coaching, though, he doesn't appear to have been much of a develop-able talent.  Neither was Lex Hilliard.  Bohanon is a 7th round rookie and actually given that, looks pretty good so far (is developing).

 

There have been 2 WRs drafted under Rex.  One 5th rounder already developed into a good slot receiver (Kerley) and is also a generally reliable PR; absolutely exceeded expectations of his draft slot and did so rather quickly.  The other drafted WR (Hill) was super-raw but even his harshest critic would concede he's worlds better than last year (is developing and taking massive strides).   

 

The drafted TE given to him was Keller.  Keller was a first-time starter under Rex.  He never developed as a blocker and I do not and will not believe that they didn't make every attempt to correct that.  Being a great blocker is a skill.  Being a competent blocker - what's considered "competent" for skill-position players - is a mindset.  Or that's my opinion anyway.  Keller doesn't have this mindset.  I don't even know how phenomenally talented he was to begin with.  I know he had a lot of good measurables at the combine (other than being somewhat short for a TE).  Is it Rex's fault Keller didn't develop or was he just not any more talented than what we saw? I don't really know, but with Keller I didn't see this unbelievable agility & balance that I see with the game's playmaking TEs.  I just see a fast guy (for a TE), who was therefore a mismatch for a lot of LBers, that Sanchez targeted in clumps and then disappeared for clumps.  I'd say he is the only real (offensive) question-mark where is he not talented enough or did Rex (more correctly the coaches Rex hired) not develop him? Who else was provided by his GM? Cumberland and some guy who was so raw he had to learn American football.

 

LT and C were already in place.  I can't fault him for not developing left tackles and centers when the team has (appropriately) made no other serious investments at the positions.  Same thing for RG where Moore was the starter for Rex's whole tenure until this season (and now it's Colon).  Through 2012, there was nobody serious brought in to develop at any of these positions.  

 

LG the player he was given to develop was Slauson (a 6th round pick).  I was totally satisfied with his development.  I never felt he was so much more talented than what he showed on the field.  They also drafted Ducasse in round 2 ( ).  He's big & he's strong as an ox, and I can definitely see some positive attributes as a mauling straight-ahead blocker.  But he is still a work in progress as a pass blocker.  For a supposedly athletic guy (for a man his size) it appears he'll need 5-10 years experience to overcome what is probably the IQ of a high-functioning imbecile (which is why he seems fine when what's required is brute strength which he's got in spades but he falls for half-decent moves or quicker defenders).

 

We'll see how Winters develops. He's a 3rd round rookie who isn't a month into his rookie season (and who was injured so he missed crucial playing time in pre-season games).  I think we'll see him on the field this year.  Jets drafted 2 other guard/tackle prospects in the 5th and 6th rounds.  Yippee.  Three rookies, and two of them drafted where teams are thrilled to find backups.

 

RT he started out with Woody.  Then Tannenbaum cut him and left Wayne Hunter in his place.  Then Tannenbaum picked up Austin Howard, an undrafted guy who bounced around a couple of teams and once started a game in 2010 when Peters was injured and they literally had no one else.  Howard has developed into a starting RT under Rex.

 

 

Summary

 

DEVELOPED/DEVELOPING:  Slauson, Kerley, Hill, Geno Smith, Bohanon, Howard, Powell, Ducasse (though I'd also include him simultaneously as "did not develop" because he still kind of sucks other than pushing straight ahead IMO) 

 

QUESTIONABLE: Keller (was certainly productive on paper as a receiver, especially considering the man delivering the football.  But wasn't at the level of other athletic TEs drafted so highly; plus his blocking was always lacking). Also Cumberland.

 

"FAILED" TO DEVELOP:  Sanchez, Joe McKnight, Conner, Ducasse, McElroy, Tebow, O'Connell, Scotty McKnight, Jordan White, Ganaway, and the other Robert Griffin.  Quite a list of trash and failing to develop makes the assumption that they were develop-able (either mentally, physically, or both).

 

TBD:  Winters, Aboushi (who looks terrible), Campbell [all are rookies]

 

 

What/who am I missing that could have or should have been developed? 

[The Crusher]

I will... anyone who pays attention to who we've been drafting and signing and think tannenbaum was the driving force is a klogical thinker

 

 

+1 rep.  Impressive use of the word "Klogical."  

[T0mShane]

I was focusing solely on the D players because he's a D coach and I figured him to be more hands-on in their development. I don't expect Rex to personally develop the mostly crappy-talent offensive players that the Jets have drafted (or signed as UDFA rookies) into studs.

But on Rex's watch here they all are on offense:

QB Sanchez couldn't, can't, and never will be able to handle the speed of the game. He's a bust that was, in hindsight, drafted way too high and can only succeed if he has enough time to stand still in the pocket until the receiver he's staring down gets open (and even then he often fails). The backups given to Rex to develop were Clemens, Ainge, O'Connell, Tebow, and McElroy. Through 3 games, I'm totally happy with Smith's development so far.

RB Greene was slow, a generally poor receiver, and was always banged up to the point where it affected his performance (or that was always the excuse anyway). Joe McKnight was fast and didn't develop as anything other than a KR. Bilal Powell seems to have been developed to his maximum ability.

FB Conner - Rex's pick, demonstrating why he is not an NFL scout or GM - was and is a failure. In terms of coaching, though, he doesn't appear to have been much of a develop-able talent. Neither was Lex Hilliard. Bohanon is a 7th round rookie and actually given that, looks pretty good so far (is developing).

There have been 2 WRs drafted under Rex. One 5th rounder already developed into a good slot receiver (Kerley) and is also a generally reliable PR; absolutely exceeded expectations of his draft slot and did so rather quickly. The other drafted WR (Hill) was super-raw but even his harshest critic would concede he's worlds better than last year (is developing and taking massive strides).

The drafted TE given to him was Keller. Keller was a first-time starter under Rex. He never developed as a blocker and I do not and will not believe that they didn't make every attempt to correct that. Being a great blocker is a skill. Being a competent blocker - what's considered "competent" for skill-position players - is a mindset. Or that's my opinion anyway. Keller doesn't have this mindset. I don't even know how phenomenally talented he was to begin with. I know he had a lot of good measurables at the combine (other than being somewhat short for a TE). Is it Rex's fault Keller didn't develop or was he just not any more talented than what we saw? I don't really know, but with Keller I didn't see this unbelievable agility & balance that I see with the game's playmaking TEs. I just see a fast guy (for a TE), who was therefore a mismatch for a lot of LBers, that Sanchez targeted in clumps and then disappeared for clumps. I'd say he is the only real (offensive) question-mark where is he not talented enough or did Rex (more correctly the coaches Rex hired) not develop him? Who else was provided by his GM? Cumberland and some guy who was so raw he had to learn American football.

LT and C were already in place. I can't fault him for not developing left tackles and centers when the team has (appropriately) made no other serious investments at the positions. Same thing for RG where Moore was the starter for Rex's whole tenure until this season (and now it's Colon). Through 2012, there was nobody serious brought in to develop at any of these positions.

LG the player he was given to develop was Slauson (a 6th round pick). I was totally satisfied with his development. I never felt he was so much more talented than what he showed on the field. They also drafted Ducasse in round 2 ( ). He's big & he's strong as an ox, and I can definitely see some positive attributes as a mauling straight-ahead blocker. But he is still a work in progress as a pass blocker. For a supposedly athletic guy (for a man his size) it appears he'll need 5-10 years experience to overcome what is probably the IQ of a high-functioning retard (which is why he seems fine when what's required is brute strength which he's got in spades but he falls for half-decent moves or quicker defenders).

We'll see how Winters develops. He's a 3rd round rookie who isn't a month into his rookie season (and who was injured so he missed crucial playing time in pre-season games). I think we'll see him on the field this year. Jets drafted 2 other guard/tackle prospects in the 5th and 6th rounds. Yippee. Three rookies, and two of them drafted where teams are thrilled to find backups.

RT he started out with Woody. Then Tannenbaum cut him and left Wayne Hunter in his place. Then Tannenbaum picked up Austin Howard, an undrafted guy who bounced around a couple of teams and once started a game in 2010 when Peters was injured and they literally had no one else. Howard has developed into a starting RT under Rex.

Summary

DEVELOPED/DEVELOPING: Slauson, Kerley, Hill, Geno Smith, Bohanon, Howard, Powell, Ducasse (though I'd also include him simultaneously as "did not develop" because he still kind of sucks other than pushing straight ahead IMO)

QUESTIONABLE: Keller (was certainly productive on paper as a receiver, especially considering the man delivering the football. But wasn't at the level of other athletic TEs drafted so highly; plus his blocking was always lacking). Also Cumberland.

"FAILED" TO DEVELOP: Sanchez, Joe McKnight, Conner, Ducasse, McElroy, Tebow, O'Connell, Scotty McKnight, Jordan White, Ganaway, and the other Robert Griffin. Quite a list of trash and failing to develop makes the assumption that they were develop-able (either mentally, physically, or both).

TBD: Winters, Aboushi (who looks terrible), Campbell [all are rookies]

What/who am I missing that could have or should have been developed?

I've got a monster response to this that will knock your socks off, but it's going to take a little research so it'll have to wait. A nice tell you give off when you only half-believe what you're saying is that you go hard with the HTML, though. Go buy some extra socks, Socky.

[Sperm Edwards]

I've got a monster response to this that will knock your socks off, but it's going to take a little research so it'll have to wait. A nice tell you give off when you only half-believe what you're saying is that you go hard with the HTML, though. Go buy some extra socks, Socky.

 

Go ahead.  My point isn't that the Jets have been elite at turning out studs on the offense.  Rather, that there hasn't been that much to work with.  A lot of the key positions on the field were already spoken for by trade or contract.  Sanchez takes care of a lot of the rest.  His career with the Jets may not have exactly been textbook "This is how you develop a great QB" or anything, but he made those around him worse and magnifies deficiencies elsewhere.  

 

I have no idea what you mean as far as my "tell" -- I did some extra formatting after the post was written because it was long (as usual) and wanted to make it easier and more inviting to read.  Because I'm nice and because I'm awesome, not because I need to do something to hide my post.  If anything, it means the opposite.  

 

So you're socky.  You're socky times infinity.

[T0mShane]

Go ahead. My point isn't that the Jets have been elite at turning out studs on the offense. Rather, that there hasn't been that much to work with. A lot of the key positions on the field were already spoken for by trade or contract. Sanchez takes care of a lot of the rest. His career with the Jets may not have exactly been textbook "This is how you develop a great QB" or anything, but he made those around him worse and magnifies deficiencies elsewhere.

I have no idea what you mean as far as my "tell" -- I did some extra formatting after the post was written because it was long (as usual) and wanted to make it easier and more inviting to read. Because I'm nice and because I'm awesome, not because I need to do something to hide my post. If anything, it means the opposite.

So you're socky. You're socky times infinity.

GIVE ME YOUR ADDRESS. I'M MAILING YOU A SOCK.

[Sperm Edwards]

GIVE ME YOUR ADDRESS. I'M MAILING YOU A SOCK.

 

I'm mailing you my PTS (private time sock).  Please wash before returning.

[T0mShane]

I'm mailing you my PTS (private time sock). Please wash before returning.

I will NOT

[T0mShane]

#PTSfaLYFE

[Matt39]

Geno and the secondary aside....if the penalties dont immediately stop Rex is finished.

[Sperm Edwards]

Geno and the secondary aside....if the penalties dont immediately stop Rex is finished.

 

After last week's 20 for 150-ish yards, we added 10 more today for 66 yards.  Not going to lie, it seemed like more.