You know what I find ironic... Bob Sutton.

[Integrity28]

Kansas City has invested in defense the past few years with their early draft picks... and now Sutton has turned that unit into one of the best defenses in the league.

 

They kill drives by sacking the QB, and forcing punts and they create turnovers. Those are the 2 things that you can and should get from your defense in the league the way the rules are written today. Most of the other crap stats don't matter. Defenses are hamstrung by rules. The greatest value they can provide is giving the ball back to the offense.

 

That's why Rex's defense, for as good as he makes it, is flawed. They suck at creating turnovers and by the time the 4th quarter rolls around they can't kill drives and force punts.

 

Sutton was one of Woody's signature, "I'm going to fire 80% of the staff but keep 20% as holdovers" guys. He's finally getting an opportunity to do more, and he's doing a great job.

 

Yet, we argue about needing a defensive coordinator as our head coach because we couldn't possibly find a defensive coordinator if we hired a real head coach... and all this time we had Sutton here, a perfectly good candidate who we could have had if we fired Rex and hired Andy Reid. 

 

Food for thought.

[bitonti]

to quote that post  "the way the defense can provide value to the team is by giving the ball back to the offense." The problem is that the Jets offense stinks. the Jets d held them to 19 points that's a fair effort in today's NFL. 

[T0mShane]

Sutton was wretched as a DC here and basically asked to be demoted. If anything, his success this year is a testament to what a good all-around coach Andy Reid is.

[Integrity28]

to quote that post  "the way the defense can provide value to the team is by giving the ball back to the offense." The problem is that the Jets offense stinks. the Jets d held them to 19 points that's a fair effort in today's NFL. 

 

In terms of yesterday's game, you are correct. However, I'm thinking more in terms of Rex's larger body of work. His defenses don't create turnovers. Regardless of how bad the offense has always been, it doesn't excuse that the defense can't create turnovers. The Patriots defense has stunk the past few years, but they still always manage to get turnovers, 2-3 extra possessions per game for Brady. 

 

In a game driven by pinball scoring, giving the ball back to the offense is more important than anything. The fact our offense stinks is just a whole other monstrous issues, but it doesn't make this point inaccurate. 

 

Sutton was wretched as a DC here and basically asked to be demoted. If anything, his success this year is a testament to what a good all-around coach Andy Reid is.

 

Fair enough, still proves the point that we need a TRUE head coach - and canning Rex shouldn't inspire fear that his defensive prowess could never be replaced. 

[T0mShane]

Fair enough, still proves the point that we need a TRUE head coach - and canning Rex shouldn't inspire fear that his defensive prowess could never be replaced.

Dude Baltimore still hasn't recovered lulz

[bitonti]

 

In a game driven by pinball scoring, giving the ball back to the offense is more important than anything. The fact our offense stinks is just a whole other monstrous issues, but it doesn't make this point inaccurate. 

 

 

it sometimes feels like people nitpick the D because those problems seem fixable. A free safety who can cover, maybe if coples gets better etc. meanwhile the offense is a friggin tire fire. No one talks about it except to irrationally defend the QB who we all have to believe is learning from week to week. when the defense takes the field, i feel confident. When the offense takes the field I feel like changing the channel. 

[Matt39]

it sometimes feels like people nitpick the D because those problems seem fixable. A free safety who can cover, maybe if coples gets better etc. meanwhile the offense is a friggin tire fire. No one talks about it except to irrationally defend the QB who we all have to believe is learning from week to week. when the defense takes the field, i feel confident. When the offense takes the field I feel like changing the channel. 

 

The offense has actually been better this season and the defense is worse. The defense was not good at all yesterday.

[Integrity28]

it sometimes feels like people nitpick the D because those problems seem fixable. A free safety who can cover, maybe if coples gets better etc. meanwhile the offense is a friggin tire fire. No one talks about it except to irrationally defend the QB who we all have to believe is learning from week to week. when the defense takes the field, i feel confident. When the offense takes the field I feel like changing the channel. 

 

You are reducing this into an argument over the QB.

 

My point with this thread is that the people who push the "we can't fire Rex, we'll never replace his defensive genius" agenda are WRONG. The offense has nothing to do with the discussion. Defensive coordinators can be found and with talented players, they can succeed and not be named Rex.

 

Fans are so scared of him leaving because we lose our defense... it's irrational.

[Integrity28]

The offense has actually been better this season and the defense is worse. The defense was not good at all yesterday.

 

Yeah, there's also this.

[ZachEY]

to quote that post  "the way the defense can provide value to the team is by giving the ball back to the offense." The problem is that the Jets offense stinks. the Jets d held them to 19 points that's a fair effort in today's NFL. 

 

Yeah, but the fact that the Steelers stink has to be taken into consideration.  19 points absolutely should be good enough to win, but in the big picture, for as good as we are in yards, we're in the middle of the pack in points, and have one INT on the year, putting us last, and 4 fumbles recovered, putting us in the middle of the pack.

 

We don't turn the ball over at all.

[bitonti]

Yeah, but the fact that the Steelers stink has to be taken into consideration.  19 points absolutely should be good enough to win, but in the big picture, for as good as we are in yards, we're in the middle of the pack in points, and have one INT on the year, putting us last, and 4 fumbles recovered, putting us in the middle of the pack.

 

We don't turn the ball over at all.

 

can't help but wonder if the Jets secondary issues and their trading of the best cornerback since Deion are related. hmmm... 

[bitonti]

My point with this thread is that the people who push the "we can't fire Rex, we'll never replace his defensive genius" agenda are WRONG. 

 

Fans are so scared of him leaving because we lose our defense... it's irrational.

 

The D got 4 sacks and stuffed the run all game long. The defense can get better but it can also get much worse. The Jets are a good D, a steady special teams and an abortion on O. they could fire Rex and be bad on both sides of the football. 

[Matt39]

can't help but wonder if the Jets secondary issues and their trading of the best cornerback since Deion are related. hmmm... 

 

Of course it does. But Revis is also getting paid a sh*t ton of money for a really bad team. I think people are slowly starting to see he's a pain(as he was complaining again after the game). 

[ZachEY]

can't help but wonder if the Jets secondary issues and their trading of the best cornerback since Deion are related. hmmm... 

 

They would be better with Revis.  Absolutely.  No one denies that.  But, how many wins has Revis given TB this year?  And what does that work out to be per win at 16M for the year?

[Matt39]

The D got 4 sacks and stuffed the run all game long. The defense can get better but it can also get much worse. The Jets are a good D, a steady special teams and an abortion on O. they could fire Rex and be bad on both sides of the football. 

 

The quick passes we couldnt stop are basically running plays. If your core is built on one side of the ball...they better do more than just bend not break. The better being causing havoc and scoring points too.

[Bleedin Green]

Kansas City has invested in defense the past few years with their early draft picks... and now Sutton has turned that unit into one of the best defenses in the league.

 

They kill drives by sacking the QB, and forcing punts and they create turnovers. Those are the 2 things that you can and should get from your defense in the league the way the rules are written today. Most of the other crap stats don't matter. Defenses are hamstrung by rules. The greatest value they can provide is giving the ball back to the offense.

 

That's why Rex's defense, for as good as he makes it, is flawed. They suck at creating turnovers and by the time the 4th quarter rolls around they can't kill drives and force punts.

 

Sutton was one of Woody's signature, "I'm going to fire 80% of the staff but keep 20% as holdovers" guys. He's finally getting an opportunity to do more, and he's doing a great job.

 

Yet, we argue about needing a defensive coordinator as our head coach because we couldn't possibly find a defensive coordinator if we hired a real head coach... and all this time we had Sutton here, a perfectly good candidate who we could have had if we fired Rex and hired Andy Reid. 

 

Food for thought.

 

Meh, with a nearly identify defensive roster in 2008, Sutton coached an extremely mediocre defense (16th in YPG, 18th in PPG, 29th in pass defense) that went on to become #1 in 2009.  I'm going to go out on a limb and say Jim Leonhard, Bart Scott and Marques Douglas were not exactly the sole difference between those defenses, and improvements of 15, 17, and 28 positions in the rankings of those respective categories.  Good for him that he's having success now, but to act as if he would have been destined for the same success he is seeing 5 years later if kept on as the Jets DC is a bit of a stretch.

[SayNoToDMC]

can't help but wonder if the Jets secondary issues and their trading of the best cornerback since Deion are related. hmmm...

Yeah, we really got burned on that deal. His production from last year it's sorely missed.

[ZachEY]

The quick passes we couldnt stop are basically running plays. If your core is built on one side of the ball...they better do more than just bend not break. The better being causing havoc and scoring points too.

 

This is it 100%

 

If your HC is going to be a defensive guru and say things like, "I don't participate in offensive meetings."  Then the defense needs to be better than "pretty good".

[pedro55]

The offense has actually been better this season and the defense is worse. The defense was not good at all yesterday.

 

 The offense has sucked for most of this season.  They played ok against the Bills, and great against the Falcons. Other than that this team can't score.

They are better coached than their previous OC, but they are still a team who needs to win 13-10.     The defense has issues, but yesterday they should have been beaten 35-6.  So the defense did their job in holding the Steelers to 19 points.  It sure helped that the Steelers offense sucks though.

[JiFtheOracle]

Yeah, but the fact that the Steelers stink has to be taken into consideration.  19 points absolutely should be good enough to win, but in the big picture, for as good as we are in yards, we're in the middle of the pack in points, and have one INT on the year, putting us last, and 4 fumbles recovered, putting us in the middle of the pack.

 

We don't turn the ball over at all.

 

Holding a team to 19pts who's had 2 weeks to prepare when you've had 5 days, is a strong effort.  Especially when you consider that 7 of those points was all on Cro getting burned.  Pretty much should win whenever you a hold a team in the teens.  FWIW, 19pts would be good for 6th overall average in the league.

 

Offense laid an egg, which is going to happen with a rookie QB who's got limited weaponz, on a short week, losing his leading receiver.  

 

That was a team loss.  The D missed some opportunities, the offense didnt show up.  sh*t like this is going to happen to a very young team.  

[pedro55]

This is it 100%

 

If your HC is going to be a defensive guru and say things like, "I don't participate in offensive meetings."  Then the defense needs to be better than "pretty good".

 

  I agree with this.   Rex's teams always seem to be "we will beat you 13-10."   It's the old Buddy Ryan mentality, it was the Ravens super bowl win over the Giants mentality and so on.  But we saw how that worked for the Ravens for years.  They always had a great defense, hell there were some years where they were one of the best defenses in years, but the only year they won was the year that defense was "once in a generation" kind of teams.

 

 Those teams rarely win.    The bears only won once. The Ravens once. They didn't win again until they became an offensive team. The Bucs great defenses never won until an Offensive coach took over.    This is the problem with the Rex Ryan mentality.   Those great defenses rarely win it all as it is, but Rex's defenses never seem to be great, but more like they "play far better than they should."     Those Ravens and Bears teams that won,  they would win 13-10.   The Jets seem to lose 14-13.  That's the difference. And again, those great defensive teams only rarely win anyway.

[ZachEY]

Holding a team to 19pts who's had 2 weeks to prepare when you've had 5 days, is a strong effort.  Especially when you consider that 7 of those points was all on Cro getting burned.  Pretty much should win whenever you a hold a team in the teens.  FWIW, 19pts would be good for 6th overall average in the league.

 

Offense laid an egg, which is going to happen with a rookie QB who's got limited weaponz, on a short week, losing his leading receiver.  

 

That was a team loss.  The D missed some opportunities, the offense didnt show up.  sh*t like this is going to happen to a very young team.  

 

I agree with everything you're saying here.  I'm more upset about the defensive performance against the Falcons than I am about yesterday.  However, you can't deny that we're not turning the ball over, and in general do not in Rex's defenses.

 

I don't think Rex is a terrible coach.  I just think the one sided act is wearing thin, especially when that side isn't amazing, it's a "strong effort", as you say, and assuming a non-winning season, do not see how you extend a guy who hasn't won in 3 years.

[dbatesman]

A Bob Sutton defense would have given up 70+ yesterday. #science #ExtendRex

[sh4dy15]

Holding a team to 19pts who's had 2 weeks to prepare when you've had 5 days, is a strong effort.  Especially when you consider that 7 of those points was all on Cro getting burned.  Pretty much should win whenever you a hold a team in the teens.  FWIW, 19pts would be good for 6th overall average in the league.

 

Offense laid an egg, which is going to happen with a rookie QB who's got limited weaponz, on a short week, losing his leading receiver.  

 

That was a team loss.  The D missed some opportunities, the offense didnt show up.  sh*t like this is going to happen to a very young team.  

 

Why does nobody seem to grasp this? This isn't a team built to win right now. They are incredibly young and that d-line is only going to get better. That's one of the major differences from 2009 and 2010. This is a young team that does have a little time to wait and see if Geno develops. Am I saying give him 3-4 years? Hell no. Am I saying give him this year and see how he looks in the last 4 games? Definitely. They are young and mostly unskilled on offense and Geno is making rookie mistakes, which I am not saying aren't frustrating but he shows flashes and has the arm strength and the temperament to succeed here. Taking care of the ball has to be in his head every snap of every game and you can see when he trys to do to much and forces the issue. He goes back to what he was asked to do in college and he has to stay away from that.

[JiFtheOracle]

I agree with everything you're saying here.  I'm more upset about the defensive performance against the Falcons than I am about yesterday.  However, you can't deny that we're not turning the ball over, and in general do not in Rex's defenses.

 

I don't think Rex is a terrible coach.  I just think the one sided act is wearing thin, especially when that side isn't amazing, it's a "strong effort", as you say, and assuming a non-winning season, do not see how you extend a guy who hasn't won in 3 years.

 

Yep, they're not creating turnovers...the opportunities are there, they're just not making the play.  Some of that can be attributed to 8 new starters on defense, some of them can be attributed to the ball taking a bounce in favor of the offense.  Walls missed a pick 6 last week, this week our best player missed a tackle for a safety and they also forced a fumble that nobody even noticed was on the ground.  Still, 19pts, with ample opportunities of great field position given to the offense should be enough to win.

 

I dont really care if they resign Rex at this point in the season.  I'm not going to do a week to week assessment of his job status, but I will laugh at the fools that blame him for everything and cant see the trees through the forest.  Talk to me at the end of the year...I clearly think he's a great HC and would love to see what he could do with some talent and a decent QB....but its not my decision.

[jl12]

I think Bob Sutton stunk as a DC here, but I agree with the gist of your post.

 

The talent is here on defense, and a good coach can make them into an intimidating unit.  Rex isn't the only one who can do that, but he's here so that's one advantage to keeping him.

 

Actually, you have to give Clinkscales some credit. He drafted Wilk when others wanted Hewyard (Ohio State) or other players. 

Idzik did a pretty good job getting new pieces over the last year too  The jury is still out on Coples (Clink), Davis (Clink), and Milliner(Idzik) but I think they will be fine. I worry a little about Milliner's injury history.  Drafting  Wilk was no mean feat though. 

 

I really liked Andy Reid as a potential coach for the Jets, but unfortunately that ship has sailed... 

 

As for the lack of turnovers or takeaways on defense, I think that's a fair point.  We have never produced as many takeawyas as we could have under Rex.  Maybe it's a mindset or maybe he's never had the safeties to make the picks.  He can certainly coach defense but others can as well. Look at what Dick LeBeau did to us yesterday.

 

Teams reflect their coaches, and for all of the defense's bluster, Rex's teams have often faltered at the end of games.  That's my biggest compalint, and it might be defense which ultimately gets him fired.

 

[Bugg]

Sutton was wretched as a DC here and basically asked to be demoted. If anything, his success this year is a testament to what a good all-around coach Andy Reid is.

Don't think he was so bad, merely following orders. He was here from Parcells through Wrecks. The guy managed to get Army into a bowl game and coming off that choose to be an asistant for what ever the reason. Some people are meant to be assistant coaches rather than head coaches and Sutton at least recognized that early in his career.

[pedro55]

Why does nobody seem to grasp this? This isn't a team built to win right now. They are incredibly young and that d-line is only going to get better. That's one of the major differences from 2009 and 2010. This is a young team that does have a little time to wait and see if Geno develops. Am I saying give him 3-4 years? Hell no. Am I saying give him this year and see how he looks in the last 4 games? Definitely. They are young and mostly unskilled on offense and Geno is making rookie mistakes, which I am not saying aren't frustrating but he shows flashes and has the arm strength and the temperament to succeed here. Taking care of the ball has to be in his head every snap of every game and you can see when he trys to do to much and forces the issue. He goes back to what he was asked to do in college and he has to stay away from that.

 

  The problem is it's the same team we've seen year after year.  And young players become players who want big bucks.  How many times have we seen great players leave teams for greener pastures?   Hell, Revis isn't the only guy to leave.  Look at the Elvis situation in Denver.     This is why building teams isn't really "find a bunch of great players and hold on to them for years."   It just doesn't work that way anymore.  And hell, there are many teams who hope their young QB becomes a winner before they have to pay him big bucks.   Look at the Ravens.  They are a shell of what they were even last year.  

 

 

 The other issue people miss is the Steelers offense stinks.   Their OL sucks.  Big Ben just looks old.   So we can say they held the Steelers to only 19 points, but if that offense was a bit better,  the Steelers win 38-6.   It's the same thing back to week one.  The defense did ok, but the Bucs QB sucked.    If they hold the Patriots to 13 points again, I will say the defense looks good.  But if this is one of those Pats - 34 Jets - 17 kind of games, then it's the same old Jets who play great against bad offenses and once in a while they have one of those great games.  But overall, they wind up looking better on a piece of paper and stats then in the real games.

[Integrity28]

The D got 4 sacks and stuffed the run all game long. The defense can get better but it can also get much worse. The Jets are a good D, a steady special teams and an abortion on O. they could fire Rex and be bad on both sides of the football. 

 

Again, I'm not focusing on yesterday's game exclusively. If you want to push this into an argument, you'll have to disagree with my initial point and do so with some logic. Citing what happened yesterday isn't gonna get you there.

 

This is an offense driven league - defenses are hamstrung by the rules, the most important thing you can ask for from a defense is turnovers and forcing punts. Extra possessions for your own offense leads to winning. Rex apologists are hellbent on sending the message that we gotta keep Rex as a HC, because his prowess as a defensive coordinator cannot be replaced. I'm saying offense is more important, and that defensive coordinators can be found, and that our defensive guru doesn't even produce the most important thing on defense, which is extra possessions for his offense.

 

That's all.

[Integrity28]

Meh, with a nearly identify defensive roster in 2008, Sutton coached an extremely mediocre defense (16th in YPG, 18th in PPG, 29th in pass defense) that went on to become #1 in 2009.  I'm going to go out on a limb and say Jim Leonhard, Bart Scott and Marques Douglas were not exactly the sole difference between those defenses, and improvements of 15, 17, and 28 positions in the rankings of those respective categories.  Good for him that he's having success now, but to act as if he would have been destined for the same success he is seeing 5 years later if kept on as the Jets DC is a bit of a stretch.

 

That's not the point I'm trying to make. What I'm saying is that defensive coordinators can be had, and we shouldn't feel like we must compromise having a sh*tty HC because he's good at being a defensive coordinator.

 

We can have both a great HC AND a defensive coordinator.

[jl12]

Why does nobody seem to grasp this? This isn't a team built to win right now. They are incredibly young and that d-line is only going to get better. That's one of the major differences from 2009 and 2010. This is a young team that does have a little time to wait and see if Geno develops. Am I saying give him 3-4 years? Hell no. Am I saying give him this year and see how he looks in the last 4 games? Definitely. They are young and mostly unskilled on offense and Geno is making rookie mistakes, which I am not saying aren't frustrating but he shows flashes and has the arm strength and the temperament to succeed here. Taking care of the ball has to be in his head every snap of every game and you can see when he trys to do to much and forces the issue. He goes back to what he was asked to do in college and he has to stay away from

Geno needs time.  If anything I have been surprised by how good he looked in those two wins.  It's way too early to say this, but I think we may have found our qb. It is a young team, but I wouldn't just assume the defense will get better.  If Rex wants to keep his job he needs to field a competitive, smart team every week which he has mostly done this year.   I would probably keep him, but I'll wait until the end of the year before deciding. 

 

Geno is a very good pure passer, and he makes better decisions, yesterday notwithstanding, than I expected from a rookie qb.  If his decision making improves, I like our chances next year assuming we add talent at WR.  For god's sake though, can't somebody draft a safety for this team. 

[stoicsentry]

If you really think the Jets defense is a problem, ask yourself this: if the Jets had the Cowboys offense (Romo, Murray, Austin, Bryant, Witten), then how many games would the Jets lose this season? Like 2?

[Matt39]

If you really think the Jets defense is a problem, ask yourself this: if the Jets had the Cowboys offense (Romo, Murray, Austin, Bryant, Witten), then how many games would the Jets lose this season? Like 2?

 

I dont think the record would be any different. Romo is a dummy and our defense hasnt been that much better than Dallas'

 

Peyton would have a field day against us with the short patterns.

[Integrity28]

I dont think the record would be any different. Romo is a dummy and our defense hasnt been that much better than Dallas'

 

Peyton would have a field day against us with the short patterns.

 

Jake Locker had a field day against us. Josh Freeman too. 

 

VAUNTED!

[pedro55]

If you really think the Jets defense is a problem, ask yourself this: if the Jets had the Cowboys offense (Romo, Murray, Austin, Bryant, Witten), then how many games would the Jets lose this season? Like 2?

 

  The Jets didn't beat the Falcons because of their defense.  They didn't beat the Bills because of their defense either.    And if the Steelers were more like the Cowboys on offense, the Jets get beat 35-6 yesterday.     Yeah the Jets held the Steelers to 19 points, but the Jets defense got burned, they made Big Ben look like a pro bowler again. The main reason the Steelers only scored 19 points is because the Steelers suck.  Dropped TDs, bad routes, bad OL, etc.        Same can be said in week one against the Bucs.  Freeman sucks as a QB, if that were say Romo, the jets probably lose 31-15.      

 

So far this season, the Jets defense has looked good up front, but against a good QB, they seem to get burned more often than not.    Of course if the Jets had a better offense, they'd win more, but then again,  when they play better offenses, this defense looks god awful.